Author Topic: Sub Powders & Corrosion  (Read 18436 times)

Offline LynnC

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Sub Powders & Corrosion
« on: January 07, 2010, 08:20:31 PM »
The last real BP seller in our area has quit us.

They will gladly sell you pyrodex or T-7

A lot of the cap gun shooters I know will be buying the subs and depending on who's propoganda you read, they are practically non corrosive.

It was recently mentioned in the gun building section that the subs were clorate or perclorate or ? type powders and are highly corrosive.

1)  What is the cause of this corrosion?

2)  Are all subs equally corrosive?

3)  Is there a proper cleaning method to avoid this corrosion?

My flinters won't burn the stuff and all I had was hangfires in my capper when I tried Pyro 20 years ago.  Kinda glad I did'nt have any luck with the subs way back then.

If the cap gunners switch to the subs are they going to ruin their bores?
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dannybb55

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 10:32:57 PM »
We can all hope that their bores dissolve rapidly. First fake powder then fake wood, maybe some nice aluminum inlays? Best to order from the internet or start selling it and becoming the sole local supplier????

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 11:02:17 PM »
Sorry to hear that Lynn! >:(  

I never (never say never?)  I NEVER used anything other than the real BP (although KIK was lousy at least in my pieces)  I suggest getting a hold of Graf's Inc in the Mid west area and order in at least 10 lbs or share with buddies and get a case or two! ;D (of the real mccoy)  $#*!, it doesn't spoil!!

I would add that I shoot with a guy (heck of a shot also) that apparently ruined 2 offhand percussion rifles since the guy always used pyrodex til he had both rifles rebarreled and now uses Goex!!!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:33:42 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 11:14:16 PM »
The last real BP seller in our area has quit us.

They will gladly sell you pyrodex or T-7

A lot of the cap gun shooters I know will be buying the subs and depending on who's propoganda you read, they are practically non corrosive.

It was recently mentioned in the gun building section that the subs were clorate or perclorate or ? type powders and are highly corrosive.

1)  What is the cause of this corrosion?

2)  Are all subs equally corrosive?

3)  Is there a proper cleaning method to avoid this corrosion?

My flinters won't burn the stuff and all I had was hangfires in my capper when I tried Pyro 20 years ago.  Kinda glad I did'nt have any luck with the subs way back then.

If the cap gunners switch to the subs are they going to ruin their bores?

Just get together with other shooters and order a case of real BP from a distributor. It will be as cheap or cheaper than buying over the counter anyway. I hinestly do not know what the fuss is about.

The active ingredient in the corrosive substitute powder is salts left over from the potassium perchlorate used in the corrosive powders. This stuff is very aggressive and will eat holes in barrels and breeches under the right conditions.

Any extended use, or less than fanatic cleaning will make subsequent use of BP difficult to impossible unless wiped every shot.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

octagon

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 04:20:21 AM »
I use to shoot BP and Pyrodex years ago. Pyrodex is nasty stuff and I abandoned it long ago. Good old Goex for me 'till I die!!

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 06:49:14 AM »
I have one freind who will split a case, and I will.  I'm not interested in hangfires myself but No one else is interested enough to  go in on a case.  A pound of whatever will do em and its on the shelf.  I need info that I can convey to get em interested
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 07:03:13 AM »
Bubba isn't going to listen to "your going to ruin your bore".  I need facts.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2010, 04:33:40 PM »
Bubba isn't going to listen to "your going to ruin your bore".  I need facts.

Dear Bubba:
If you are going to assume everyone who posts something you don't want to here is misleading you the site is useless to you.
Shoot the stuff for awhile, clean it as you would BP and you will have all the facts you need.
But don't use it in anything of any significant value and especially in any antiques since these are not replaceable.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline doulos

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 05:26:57 PM »
I have one freind who will split a case, and I will.  I'm not interested in hangfires myself but No one else is interested enough to  go in on a case.  A pound of whatever will do em and its on the shelf.  I need info that I can convey to get em interested
You really dont need to split a case. Powder Inc. will sell you lots as small as 5 lbs
http://www.powderinc.com/
Yea its a little more expensive when only ordering 5 lbs. But still probably cheaper than buying over the counter.
Id never let my buddies interest in shooting affect my own shooting.  Especially when only a few shoot traditional. And none shoot as much as me.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 07:04:47 PM »
Bubba isn't going to listen to "your going to ruin your bore".  I need facts.

Mr. Bubba,

The ascorbic acid based subs are usually no more corrosive than black powder.  The old Black Mag did have potassium perchlorate in it.  But GOEX's Pinnacle and American Pioneer Powder did not.  GOEX claimed that their Pinnacle could be used in a flintlock if you ground up some of the powder and used it in the lock pan.  When I checked it for them it did light off my flinter with temps down near freezing.  But lock time was real slow.  Giving something of a hang-fire effect.

Hodgon makes two subs.  The oldest being Pyrodex.  The patent formulation shows 17 parts of potassium perchlorate.  If you shoot it and don't clean the gun quickly it will micro-pit the bore. Leave it fouled for a good length of time and you will have deep pits in the bore.  Pyrodex will not work in a flinter if you do not first "prime" the breech with a few grains of black powder before loading the main charge of Pyrodex.  Besides using black powder in the lock pan.
THen Hodgdon came out with the 777.  Forget it as far as flinters go.  Iffy at best in the traditional sidelock such as T/C and Lyman markets.  This 777 has a very high ignition temperature and has proven to be more difficult to ignite compared to Pyrodex.  While the 777 MSDS shows potassium perchlorate in the formula I could not find any real amount and the residue did not pit brass or steel test plates.

So none will work reliably in a flinter.  Most will work in percussion guns but 777 is real picky on ignition system design for reliability.

The 777 is pretty hot stuff.  The other subs tend to look a bit weak in a patched ball gun and give the best results behind elongated bullets.  The ascorbic acid based subs are mainly gas generating compositions, producing very little heat expansion of the gases which makes them real weak in some patched ball guns.  In my 28" barrel Trade Rifle the old Clean Shot produced lower velocities once I went over 110 grain charges.  And 110 grain charges of it gave velocities nowhere near smaller charges of black powder.

Bill K.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 07:20:59 PM »
When the Mad Monk speaks people listen and even Bubba should! :D

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2010, 07:24:46 PM »
Thanks Dan - I'll print that and show it to Bubba  :D  Bubba didn't pass chemistry anyway - I believe you have seen a bunch of pitted bores

Here's what I'm up against - It's not just the casual older shooters but the young guys that just bought their first muzzle loader for prim. weapon season who think because they use pyropop they don't need to clean anytime soon if at all  :o

If I gently suggest it be cleaned that evening I get the "Why? I use X brand sub powder and its not like BP" - What do I Say other than "its your barrel"?  

These folks are'nt going to become dedicated BP shooters with the mis-info they get.  I know the gun rags want to sell ad space.  I've read the same stuff that the subs are not as corrosive.  Even Falda extoles the virtues of the subs and the you could probably get away without cleaning for awhile.  Of course they cover their rear with you should clean right after shooting but all the young folks remember is the part about "almost non corrosive" and "don't have to clean right away"

I need to be able to answere that "why" question.
Thanks.........................Lynn

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 07:35:30 PM by Lynn Cook »
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2010, 07:32:54 PM »
Thanks Doulos - Ive checked powder inc - not too bad a price
Might have to use them if my freind isn't ready for an order - He burns alot and orders 50 lbs at a time.  He has offered many times and the time has come to take him up on it.
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Offline doulos

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2010, 07:48:30 PM »
Lynn
Powder inc is easy to deal with and ship pretty quick. You can mix your orders to try different powders. If I remember you have to send them a copy of your drivers license.  Nothing like getting it delivered to your door

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 08:13:29 PM »
Thanks Dan - I'll print that and show it to Bubba  :D  Bubba didn't pass chemistry anyway - I believe you have seen a bunch of pitted bores

Here's what I'm up against - It's not just the casual older shooters but the young guys that just bought their first muzzle loader for prim. weapon season who think because they use pyropop they don't need to clean anytime soon if at all  :o

If I gently suggest it be cleaned that evening I get the "Why? I use X brand sub powder and its not like BP" - What do I Say other than "its your barrel"?  

These folks are'nt going to become dedicated BP shooters with the mis-info they get.  I know the gun rags want to sell ad space.  I've read the same stuff that the subs are not as corrosive.  Even Falda extoles the virtues of the subs and the you could probably get away without cleaning for awhile.  Of course they cover their rear with you should clean right after shooting but all the young folks remember is the part about "almost non corrosive" and "don't have to clean right away"

I need to be able to answere that "why" question.
Thanks.........................Lynn



Lynn,

Remember that the pro writers can't write anything that would reflect badly on a product.  They simply would not get published.  Some writers make their entire living out of writing and would get no requests to write if they wrote anything in any way negative about a product.

Before the Internet became widely used the suppliers controlled every printed word when it came to our sport/hobby.  Both Dan and I could tell some stories that now make us laugh.

Bill K.


Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 08:20:48 PM »
Thanks MM - I see you posted while I was replying.

Pyrodex is the most common here and T7 no. 2.  I have not seen others on the shelves in years.  

OK, Pottasium perclorate is the cause of the pitting.  Thats what I need to answer the "Why" Question.  Pyro looks to be pretty hard on barrel steel and T7 needs to be cleaned like Black.
Honestly, I talked to one kid that had just bought his new muzzle loader and shot a deer with it.  He was using pdex.  He thought I was crazy for suggesting he clean the gun.  I saw him a week later and he still hadn't cleaned it.  I'm sure that barrel was toast.  Where do these folks get the mistaken idea that the subs are non-corrosive.

You say T7 is harder to ignite than pyrodex - I can't imagine anything slower than Pdex - Hangfires.  I burned less than 1/3 pound before I gave up on it and gave it away.  Haven't tried any sub since in 20 years.  BP instantly solved the hangfire problem.

Thanks all for helping to educate "Bubba" - I'm sure we've all met Bubba,  some easier to stear straight than others  ;)
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Offline B.Barker

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 08:27:46 PM »
I order my powder from powder inc. They let you order 5, 10, 25 and 50 pounds. I like to order at least 25 at one time and split the cost with other guys. That way we get the biggest discount. They carry Goex and Swiss and used to carry Kik also.

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 08:30:07 PM »
MM

The internet has been/is a great learning tool.  Tons of great info for the asking.

I appreciate folks like you and Dan who have been there and done that who will step up and impart straight knowledge.

Its a shame that ALL the info doesn't get published in the gun mags so ole (and young) Bubba doesn't get the wrong idea.
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fix

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »
The real stuff is also very hard to find here. I've been using the pyrodex (in a TC renegade cap lock).

I'll look at the powder inc. site to see about future purchases.

However, I've noticed none of the pitting in either of the two guns I've used pyrodex in. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it hasn't happened in mine. Of course, none of my guns go back into the cabinet uncleaned. I was taught that the gun gets cleaned as soon as you come back home, or to camp (even the ones that use smokeless). I won't be finding out what happens if you leave the fouling in.

I still prefer the real powder and will likely order some soon, but cleaning the rifle immediately after shooting seems to keep that pitting problem away, at least in my rifles.

I am interested in this pitting problem. I tend to keep guns for a very long time, and maintaining them is a huge part of keeping them. Is there more information/research on the difference between the corrosion between real powder and pyrodex?

I am currently building a flinter, so the pyrodex isn't likely to be around much longer anyway. I just like to know as much about the stuff I use as possible.

Thanks
Fix

octagon

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 11:38:40 PM »
I have to say, being from Pennsylvania I guess we are kinda spoiled as we have blackpowder in most sporting goods stores. I have however noticed less and less of them are carrying them since the tougher restrictions and the fact they have to keep them in a certain area in the back of their stores now. I use to just buy it off the shelf ;D I usually pay about 16-17 dollars a pound for Goex near me.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:41:16 PM by octagon »

fix

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2010, 12:01:41 AM »
I managed to pick up a pound of real stuff a couple of months ago, but plan on burning through the pyrodex I have before opening it. It seems like proper cleaning and care removes any chance of pitting. I just swabbed my barrel (last shot and cleaned a month ago) and it's clean as a whistle. Same goes for the one I shot last week. It seems to me that the corrosion is due more to improper care than the corrosive powder.


After looking around a bit on the internet, it seems that pyrodex is just about as corrosive as the older black powders. I am completely willing to be corrected on that however, if someone has better information.

There are a couple of clubs near me (Charleston Illinois). I might have to join one for the powder buying benefits. I'd still rather use real powder, if i could find it close.

451whitworth

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2010, 03:24:59 AM »
i have noticed that some of my friends' older stainless steel in-lines that have digested alot of Pyrodex  have eroded or what looks like gas cutting on the face of their breech plugs and in the part of the barrel where the powder sits when loaded. they are meticulous cleaners of their rifles so i can only assume Pyrodex must have a higher combustion temp? Mad Monk? Dan? anyone?

Daryl

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2010, 03:41:36 AM »
After looking around a bit on the internet, it seems that pyrodex is just about as corrosive as the older black powders. I am completely willing to be corrected on that however, if someone has better information.

FIX- what makes you think the 'older black powders" were corrosive?  How old are the older black powders you are referring to?

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2010, 04:58:02 AM »
i have noticed that some of my friends' older stainless steel in-lines that have digested alot of Pyrodex  have eroded or what looks like gas cutting on the face of their breech plugs and in the part of the barrel where the powder sits when loaded. they are meticulous cleaners of their rifles so i can only assume Pyrodex must have a higher combustion temp? Mad Monk? Dan? anyone?

Nothing has ever been published on the real combustion products of Pyrodex.
I have reason to believe that it burns a bit cooler than most black powders.  It puts out a greater volume of gas for the weight being used.  To give nearly the same pressures as black powder it would have to burn at a lower temperature.

In regards to stainless steels and gas erosion.  Some of the stainless alloys are not all that good when it comes to gas erosion.
In the PVC plant I spent more than a few hours inside the pressure vessels used to polymerize vinyl chloride monomer to polyvinyl chloride.  Each of these pressure vessels had an emergency relief vent connected to a stack line in the event the batch being reacted got out of control and built up dangerous pressures within the vessel.  The emergency vent having a rupture disk that would break at a given pressure.  When I first cleaning "reactors" I was surprised at the amount of stainless erosion in the volute leading into the relief line.  Some very nice fluting that was fairly deep in the metal from hot batches screaming out the stack line.

Then one year we lucked into some very large stainless steel nuts used to hold the "domes" on the reactors.  We started to make rings out of these nuts.  I was surprised how easy it was to file them and then work them with emery cloth.

Some stainless alloys appear to be fairly soft.

Bill K.

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2010, 06:08:00 AM »
I appreciate all the replies  ;)

Have learned alot ! .............................Lynn
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