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| | |-+  original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle
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Author Topic: original full stocked Hawken flintlock rifle  (Read 11023 times)
D. Taylor Sapergia
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« on: February 11, 2010, 04:41:41 PM »

Can someone give me a web address or link to such a thing?
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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oakridge
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 05:58:36 PM »

If you're asking about a St. Louis Hawken, I've never seen, nor heard of such in original flint. I believe there is speculation that one or two known percussion Hawkens may have been born in flint. Others, more knowledgeable than I, will certainly chime in.
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louieparker
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 07:17:45 PM »

I agree, no flint St. Louis rifles are known. No real proof that any were made . I know of one that seems to have a flint  plate ,but that plate is in question . Full stocks were made all during the Hawken period , they were just a cheaper gun .  If anyone knows of an original flint J&S, I would certainly like to hear about it . Louie Parker
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 12:33:16 AM »

I agree with all of you.  I would like some directions to the full stocked percussion rifle to which you refer.  Is it in the Smithsonian?  Anyone have a Web link?
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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JoeG
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 01:10:26 AM »

I have seen that rifle in the Smithsonian many times.That Hawken rifle along with the Iron mounted Henry trade Rifle was no longer on display in the Smithsonian when I was there a few years ago. I inquired as to its were it was located and no one was able to to tell me. They suggested that it may have been moved to the NRA collection in Va.

The Hawken  was written up in about 20-25 years ago in the museum of the fur trade quarterly and before that there was a examination of it by John Baird in the Buckskin Report. Both articiles had good photos.
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JoeG
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 01:29:04 AM »

I looked on the MFT site

Volume 13:      Numbers 1-4   1977                Bound volume: $15
13:1      Pioneer Profile; The Beaded Glengarry; A Unique Southern Rifle
13:2      New Trading Post Memorial Near Chadron; The Greatest Years of Hide Hunting
13:3      Treaty Presents at Fort Laramie-1867; Trade Goods in Colonial New England; Collection Corner-The Buffalo Knife
13:4      The Kennett Hawken Rifle

The article is 13:4

I can't believe it was that long ago, I'm getting old
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JoeG
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 01:44:45 AM »

I just remembered there is a good color photo of it on page 45
of R.L. Wilson's book  the Peacemakers
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Chuck Burrows
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 03:25:10 AM »

Pics of the Smithsonian Hawken - an 1850 era Sam Hawken built rifle





As noted The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, vol13, issue 4 , 1977 has an article on the Kennett Hawken (another 1850's era fullstock - it's in the School of the Ozarks) which includes info on and photos of the Smithsonian Hawken....they sell scanned copies of the article alone. The lock is clearly a converted flinter and all other signs point to the gun being originally a flint. The tacks on the wrist are part of a repair and the fore end cap is Schnabel shaped.

Here are the best pics I have of the Kennett




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Swampwalker
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 09:51:18 AM »

Also, don't forget the two full stocked percussion Hawken rifles in the Cody Firearms Museum digital collection.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 11:45:52 AM »

Thanks everyone for your help.  Chuck, that is the rifle I was hoping to get another look at.  I am left scratching my head though...a flint lock from 1850.  All of the other characteristics of the rifle scream percussion era, as well as the date.  This rifle was obviously (to me, at least) a custom ordered rifle, by a flintlock enthusiast like you or me, but with money in his jeans.
thanks again....Taylor
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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Dphariss
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »

Thanks everyone for your help.  Chuck, that is the rifle I was hoping to get another look at.  I am left scratching my head though...a flint lock from 1850.  All of the other characteristics of the rifle scream percussion era, as well as the date.  This rifle was obviously (to me, at least) a custom ordered rifle, by a flintlock enthusiast like you or me, but with money in his jeans.
thanks again....Taylor

This rifle kinda sticks in the craw of the "no flintlock Hawken Mtn Rifles" crowd I think.
The rifle has a flint patent hooked breech with a drum screwed into the vent.
Lock was a waterproof type and has a fence on the plate yet. There is no fence on the standing breech.
The old "Buckskin Report" featured a article on the rifle. Goodwin had gone on record that it was a percussion rifle and had P.Oed JDB at friendship in discussing the rifle and JD then set him up and pretty well humiliated him.
I will e-mail you.

Dan
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rich pierce
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 11:16:22 PM »

There are fullstock flintlock Hawken rifles from the flinlock era (not 1850).  They are Maryland styled longrifles.  Still no original fullstock, flintlock, 1820's or 1830's, St. Louis, Hawken rifles as far as I know, but it seems certain some were made there in that era.
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Chuck Burrows
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 11:22:33 PM »

Quote
The old "Buckskin Report" featured a article on the rifle.
Do you have the issue date info for that article? I'd like to get a copy via ILL
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bpotter
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 12:32:47 PM »

Wasn't there a gun with a Hawken signed barrel owned by a Koller (sp) that appeared to have been flint? If I remember correctly it had a 38 " barrel, tallow hole in stock, iron furniture and fixed breech with long tang?  This was written up in Buckskin Report or Muzzleblasts.  I probably could find the article. 
Bruce
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Randy Hedden
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American Mountain Men #1393


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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2010, 12:41:29 PM »

There is the James Clyman rifle that is a full stock Hawken flintlock rifle.  John Bivins wrote an article about it for "Muzzle Blasts" magazine maybe 30 years ago.  At that time the rifle was in the hands of Clyman's grand children in California where Clyman lived out his life after being a Rocky Mountain fur trapper and Indian fighter.  The rifle now resides with a lady who is a direct descendant of Clyman.

I don't really know if the rifle is a St. Louis product of the Hawken's or from earlier an earlier time.

Randy Hedden

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D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2010, 06:53:16 PM »

Thanks Randy...that sounds interesting.  Can anyone suggest a means of retrieving that article?

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D. Taylor Sapergia
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albert
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2010, 11:17:04 PM »

I have most of the older years of the magazine,and will look for it when i can
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j albert miles
D. Taylor Sapergia
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 01:32:04 PM »

J Albert Miles...thanks in advance.
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D. Taylor Sapergia
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JoeG
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 07:58:49 PM »

There is also a photo of a J. Hawken  St. Louis marked  .36 flint conversion in the Hawken Shop catalog


http://www.greenesgunshop.com/examples.aspx


Quote
Wasn't there a gun with a Hawken signed barrel owned by a Koller (sp) that appeared to have been flint? If I remember correctly it had a 38 " barrel, tallow hole in stock, iron furniture and fixed breech with long tang?  This was written up in Buckskin Report or Muzzleblasts.  I probably could find the article. 
Bruce

Fred Johnson took photos and measurements of that gun
 
There are photos of a copy of the Kroller rifle that he built in the Book Of Buckskining III
 they both have the same type trigger guard
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Whitedog
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 09:58:25 AM »

Here is a flintlock rifle that was sold at auction recently that was advertised to've been made by the Father of the Hawken Brothers' It went for a lot of money. I'm trying to remember who the auction house is...Anyway, I saved the pictures of it for reference. Not one made by the Brothers in St. Louis, but it IS interesting none the less.






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California Kid
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 02:33:13 PM »

This gun is in the ALR museum with more pics. I'm working on an interpretation of this gun right now.
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JTR
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 02:11:06 PM »

I'm working on an interpretation of this gun right now.

So quit wasting time, and get busy! Grin Grin Grin

John
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John Robbins
stoneke
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 11:24:00 AM »

Taylor: I have 14 pictures of a Don Stith fullstock Hawken taken at Dixon's in 2008. I will have to learn how to zip these into a folder because they are detailed and quite large. Open to any suggestions from those who are more computer versed than I am.
Keith
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Dr. Tim-Boone
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 12:20:07 PM »

It is easy to post the pictures. You just have to upload them to a webpage and then copy the links for each picture and include them in you post as is explained on the tutorial

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0    Grin Grin

You can upload photos to a website much faster than they can be emailed. Even those that are too big to be practically emailed.
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stoneke
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 01:47:51 PM »

Here are the pictures of a fullstock Hawken taken during on of Don Stith's excellent presentations of the Hawken rifle at Dixon's ML Fair in 2008. I hope that they are informative.













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