Charcoal blue

[WadePatton]

Is there a more current thread on this?

I just read up Jack Brooks' instructional at his site.  I think I'm going to give this a go.  

here's some more backformation: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=918.new#new

Jack Brooks: http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm

According to Jack: The method is not difficult but does require some courage.


a more current thread.  (so confusing so many threads all the same name).

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24173.0

and http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7046.0

[Kenny]

My limited experience is that i`ve done 2 barrels using Acers tutorial/ info and Jack brooks info. Just a wood fire pit in my yard with cowboy brand charcoal thrown on top. the color is beautiful and so far very durable( only 2 years hunting and shooting- lots of shooting tho). packed the bore per directions and never had an issue. Both rice barrels and very accurate afterwards. Any bluing or color inside the barrel seemed to shoot out pretty quickly. I think jacks stick rubbing method produced a more even color than the one i didn't do that to.

I do have a question though for you guys, If you use the folded brass barrel lugs with solder will the solder melt out in the fire? I use TOW silver brite solder melts at 450-480  (?) degree`s or somewhere in that range. no idea how hot a wood fire in my fire pit fire gets

Kenny

[WadePatton]

I'm pretty sure the temp for the bluing is around 850f. 

[Kenny]

i always made lugs out of solid material because i like the charcoal blue method and wasn't sure, will probably continue. i had never done one until i did my first one , go figure  , but following the directions from the guys on here i wouldn't hesitate to charcoal blue one one if i was you. i`m going to be doing a smooth bore barrel soon. good luck

kenny

[Vomitus]

  Nutha question. What method is it when you completely brown the barrel,then boil it in a heated trough-like device? Is that method called "blacking"? Sorry, I get these mixed up. Taylor did my JP barrel like this, IIRC.

[Kenny]

it`s rust bluing. very nice finish if done right. can be almost black.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes LB, that's rust blue.  That's the way I do my Hawken rifles.  I have a trough given to me by Brian Dancey for charcoal bluing, and I have the charcoal, but I haven't had the guts to attempt that yet, for fear of ruining the barrel's bore.

[jerrywh]

 Just a word of warning from me. If you do this in a pit the color will not be uniform and there will be irregularities or blotches on the finish. I personally don't like that. I suggest putting the barrel in a black iron pipe and packing the bore and the pipe with CLEAN charcoal. Cap both ends but drill a vent hole in each end about 1/4" in diameter. Then put it in the pit if that is all you have. I prefer a furnace for temp control. As long as it is pack well you will have no problems with warping or corrosion. Any solder is going to melt out and may cause further problems. Do not force cool. Let cool naturally. Even if it gets up to 1200 or more it will not hurt the barrel in or out. CLEAN CHARCOAL. as in no dirt or oil. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Jerry, for the encouragement and advice.

[Kenny]

Jerry,
I have only done 2 barrels soooo take this based on that minimal experience..... But I did my last one and rubbed the stick on as jack brooks explained on his site, my fire pit was deep so the barrel was basically surrounded and had to push charcoal out of the way to rub with a board. it took 3 pieces of strapping to do it. this barrel came out very even with no splotches. It was a long hot job to use the stick method so am going to try your method. Would wood stove chimney pipe work for this?

Kenny

[jerrywh]

Kenny
 A wood stove chimney pipe would work but it would require a lot of charcoal and black iron pipe is cheap. What would you cap the stove pipe with.
 They did have iron pipe in colonial America. Even cast iron is good. NO GALVANIZED.

[Vomitus]

  Thanks Jerry for the info. Taylor did a beauty job on this "rust blue". No blotches at all. Very fitting for my early Beck as it turned out a black-blue uniformly over it's entire length of 44 inches.
  Sorry if I jacked this thread.    Interesting stuff. Any examples to show re Charcoal blue?

[WadePatton]

 ...Interesting stuff. Any examples to show re Charcoal blue?

I'll show you mine... (when it happens).

I saw a bbl the other day (forget where exactly) that looked quite interesting and I'm thinking it must have been the splotchy version of pit bluing.  There is a gun at the blog and Mark Elliot posted an inquiry as to if it were "charcoal blued" but there was no reply.  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/08/john-gaeckle.html

I'm going to "pit blue" (no pipe, just charcoal) my next couple.  I'm not going for pretty, but for color and durability and the heat treatment.  I'll likely make my charcoal too...  

[Vomitus]

  Re: Gaeckle gun. Not my cup of tea, as far as barrel treatment. I like naturally collecting my patina on a new gun. LOL, so any ratbagging is done by me, at my pace. I guess there is a fairly large market for custom replicas to look old and well used. Mine take ten or more years to look ratbagged and that's my story and I'm stickin to it. 
 

[Kenny]

thanks jerry, didn't think about that. iron pipe it is.

Kenny

[RAT]

On a historical note... my research indicates the introduction/popularity of browning seems to coincide with the introduction/popularity of half stock guns in England sometime before 1790. I'm convinced this is because of the issue of soldered under ribs. Rust bluing was introduced around 1840. No doubt to re-introduce the blue color, but without having to heat the barrel.

At least that's my story... and I'm sticking to it.

[JPK]

I did this piece of charcoal blue as a test before I did a revolver. The inside is just as shiny as the out side. The revolver came out nice too. They were done in a steel container with cowboy charcoal broken up fine and dust removed. The furnace was at 800 for 1 1/2 hours then the piece was put aside for three days before oiling.

[SuperCracker]

Just a thought. 

Could you use a heavy coat of high temp flux in the bore to protect during the process and then clean it out later?

[jerrywh]

 High temp flux is totally unnecessary.  Flux is used to stop oxidization it would work but is difficult to remove.
 Charcoal does the same thing. But leaves just enough oxidization to protect the bore.
 If you were to put the barrel in an oven without packing it in charcoal at 800° for the same amount of time it would come out very shiny but the color will be deep black and thick like porcelain. If left too long in that way the black surface will chip off.  i have done a lot of experiments will this type of stuff.  
  I have heat blued a Smith and Wesson 44 mag. I talked to S&W tech dept. in advance to make sure it was not doing damage to the gun. S&W told me not to exceed 800° or it would make the gun unsafe. I did it at about 600°.    800° would be safe on a black powder gun but is marginal on a modern revolver. I had S&W proof my gun afterwards.  Don't tell me they don't proof guns. They do.
 JPK. That is very nice. They won't get anything that pretty doing I in a pit. container is he way o go.

[SuperCracker]

So, if I understand correctly. The type of packing (oxygen shield), temp and length of soak an all be manipulated to achieve colors ranging from deep dark black to that nice inky purplish blue seen on some European guns?

[WadePatton]

High temp flux is totally unnecessary.  Flux is used to stop oxidization it would work but is difficult to remove.
 ...

I only use water-soluble fluxes (with brass or silver (joinery-not bluing bbls) and they soak right off unless overcooked.  I'd only resort to that if i had a failure or two with charcoal.  

[jerrywh]

That nice inky purplish blue seen on some European guns is not charcoal blue It is fire blue or heat blue. In the 18th century in Europe and England it was done in hot sand by the bluers guild members. It started with the sword bluers. Now  it  is done in furnaces or in sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate baths. Some do It with a torch like Acer. I use a sodium nitrate bath for small parts like pistol barrels.

[sqrldog]

I own three rifles that have charcoal blued barrels. One is the mottled color and definitely had a texture in the bore when I first shot and cleaned the rifle. I subsequently scrubbed the bore with steel wool and it is much better. The second rifle has a more uniform blue black coating  with less texture in the bore but you could tell it was there. Shooting has removed this so that it is not noticeable at least to me while cleaning. The third rifle has more of an appearance of being heat blued and the finish seems softer, but the rifle was supposedly charcoal blued. The third barrel is still slick and new like albeit blued in the bore and had some black dust that came out with a good scrubbing prior to shooting the rifle. Based on my experience with these barrels. I think results can vary.a great deal based on  temperature, length of soak, type and granulation of charcoal packed in the barrel, and the experience of the person doing the blueing. In a heat controlled oven  the process probably works every time, if all factors are the same. Few people have access to such equipment. In my opinion they probably.had a method of preventing any damage to the bore. Antiscaling compound such as used by.knife makers or others may be a possibility. Go back and read Flintriflesmith's comments. He had a great deal of experience with this process. Wish he was still here to comment further. Just my thoughts and observations for what they are worth. Tim

[jerrywh]

 The charcoal bluing process is essentially the same as pack case hardening without quenching only at lower temperatures. There is never any scaling when case hardening with the pack type process and CLEAN CHARCOAL.
  Most home made charcoal is not pure or clean. It must also be void of any moisture. I don't see how this can be accomplished in a pit without the barrel being enclosed in some sort of container.
  For the life of me I cannot understand why some people want to find a alternative method when they know how it is done correctly. I personally think the colonial gunsmiths who did this in a pit are like those of us today that don't know the proper way.  Are we to think they never had metal containers.  Charcoal bluing is not a big secret amongst modern gunsmiths. Turnbull does it on a regular basis. The barrels that have pitted bores and blotchy appearance were done the wrong way.  It's that simple.
 PS. It cost money to make a $10,000 or $20,000 gun. If one wants quality he must be willing to spend the money.
 You need the right wife also.

[Rolf]

600 to 800 degrees, Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Best regards
Rolf