Modifying a small Siler lock to look English

[Dphariss]

Wow, thanks for all the input, guys. Even from those of you who think the whole idea is stupid.

Dan, you mentioned that a small Siler won't feel like a first quality English lock when cocked, no matter what it looks like. I have never cocked a quality English pistoil, so I had no idea there was such a difference. Can you get this feel of a quality lock from modifying an L&R Manton? Or from Jim C's late Ketland?

Are there any tricks to thinning out the tumbler? If I remember correctly, the fly in the Manton is on the lockplate side, not on the bridle side as in the Silers, so turning from the bridle side seems to make the most sense. How much do you take off? BTW, I know what you mean about it making for a deep cavity. The first muzzle loader I ever built was a pistol kit from Golden Age with a Manton lock and a 13/16" straight barrel.  Not a whole lot of wood left there. You can see the tang screw in the lock inlet. It did get me a judges choice ribbon at Dixon's, though.

I was going to stay away from the Rifle Shop because of the delivery time stories I have heard, and I did try Blackley's, but had trouble with their website. Maybe worth another look.

I did look at Jim's late Ketland for this pistol and the length was OK, it was just a little tall. Maybe I will take another look.

Right now though, it seems like Jeff's idea of contacting L&R to see if they will sell me a casting set is the best idea. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

Thanks for all the ideas, and keep them coming.

Hope you are all having a safe and enjoyable holiday weekend.

Dale H

I just put it in the lathe and thinned it then cut down the bridle and other parts as needed. If carbide is used its not necessary to anneal the part. You are correct this can be done without effecting the fly. When done I left a small "bearing" around the pin the protrudes through the bridal. I took just a little off the other side as well to make sure it was true.
Fool like I did not measure it before I started cutting.
Late English locks, like those used by Manton after 1800 or so had pretty small parts compared to earlier stuff. Part of this was to lighten the parts for speed this was becoming important as wing shooting continued to increase in popularity and part was surely better metallurgy allowing smaller parts that were still durable.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Perhaps he doesn't want a "best quality" English lock....ordinary English locks retained a normal mainspring/tumbler arrangement.

I tend to assume things.
I personally can't see building a low grade English gun so I don't look at it from that perspective.
Many of the plainer English guns still had pretty good lock compared to the relatively poor quality locks sent over here.

Dan

[Evil Monkey]

Has anybody tried this supplier?
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/Pistols.html

He's got several Wogdon lockplates listed.

Best regards

Rolfkt

Rolfkt, the lockplate, cock and frizzen for these two locks came from Peter Dyson. I found Peter to be very good to deal with. I asked him if he could blot out the engraveing so I could change the design and he obliged. I suspect that he just wiped some putty on the plate before molding. Made the plate surface a bit rough and uneven but that was expected. the castings were very nice. My understanding is that Peter does not have the original locks but rather, a set of copies that he then copies from. At least with my locks that was the case and no internal parts were available. Unlike Blackley, who do all their casting in house, Peter sends his out to be done.

[Rolf]

Evil Monkey, beautiful lock!!! What type of gun is it for? My main interest is flintlock pistols. Sadly, there are very few types of finished pistol locks offered.
I've been often tempted to order parts from Dyson, but haven't dared, since he doesn't have complete kits.  Can you make/buy suitable "guts" for these locks without a lathe and a mill?

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Evil Monkey]

Rolfkt, these locks are for a sxs shotgun, about 1820ish. In my case, I wanted to make all the 'guts' myself just because I hadn't done it before. There's a good chance that you could retrofit contemporary 'guts' to a set of period castings as long as the lockplate dimentions (particularily the height) were similar. If you are to do this, make sure that Peter knows and ask him to cover up the original holes. I don't think any of his plates have the tumbler and screw holes in them but they do have remnants of them (unless you have the engraveing blotted out ). For an English pistol lock, I don't think there is anything wrong with the L&R manton. I REALLY like Dave Kanger's idea of asking L&R to furnish the parts as cast like a kit. To make your own internals, A mill is not necessary but a lathe is handy. You could, of course, make and use a tumbler mill for the tumbler. Not sure how you would make the stirup link without a lathe?? and of course screws are easy on a lathe. I made the bridles for my locks on a drill press.

[Dphariss]

Here is a link to a tutorial on making a Manton  V pan flintlock from TRS castings.
TOWs plan for a Purdey rifle has drawing of the lock internals that are very close if not identical to TRS castings for the recessed breech Manton FL I put together. So for those needing guidance on English lock internals this is a place to look.

Dan

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html

[Dale Halterman]

Dan, when you turn down the tumbler, did you take any metal off the fork for the link? I have an L&R Bedford lock and the fork has broken twice. It seems to be a weak point and I would be wary of thinning it even more.

You all have convinced me not to try to modify a small Siler. This winter, I will put together a couple of Siler kits I have picked up and hopefully learn something about lock building. Then I will decide which casting set to use - Manton, Blackely, or whatever.

So, first questions:

What size reamer to use for the hole in the sear?

Is there any way to heat treat lock parts with an acetylene torch? I don't have one and I'm not sure I want to buy one just for doing locks.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.

Dale H

[Dphariss]

Dan, when you turn down the tumbler, did you take any metal off the fork for the link? I have an L&R Bedford lock and the fork has broken twice. It seems to be a weak point and I would be wary of thinning it even more.

You all have convinced me not to try to modify a small Siler. This winter, I will put together a couple of Siler kits I have picked up and hopefully learn something about lock building. Then I will decide which casting set to use - Manton, Blackely, or whatever.

So, first questions:

What size reamer to use for the hole in the sear?

Is there any way to heat treat lock parts with an acetylene torch? I don't have one and I'm not sure I want to buy one just for doing locks.

Thanks again to everyone who responded.

Dale H

I turned that whole side down and stiffened the mainspring by re-arching it. Sparked it a few times to check the tune then took it apart to start inletting. Don't know if its going to break or not.
Guess I will eventually find out.

Dan