Author Topic: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?  (Read 19679 times)

Offline Ky-Flinter

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This past weekend I happened upon a deal I just couldn't refuse.  In the pile of stuff I carted home was a CVA Kentucky caplock (2 piece fullstock) that does not appear to have ever been fired.  It appears to have been a kit that was never completed.  I did get all the parts.  My nephew wants to try out traditional muzzleloading and maybe build one, so I thought this one might be good (cheap) practice.

So far I've noticed several issues....  There are a number of screws in it that are not correct.  It needs a proper side plate and the butt plate over hangs the toe plate by a 1/4.  The trigger pull is pretty heavy and there's way too much wood on the forestock.  Sure wish there was more wood in the back half of this stock.

Any ideas or suggestions for improving this piece will be most welcome.  If your suggestion is to pitch it in the trash, please move on.  Thanks.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline bgf

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 11:07:26 PM »
Your post drew me from my lurking.  I just recently (last summer) started with BP and the Traditions percussion Kentucky (same thing) -- we've all got to start somewhere.  After assembling it more or less the way it was supposed to be and shooting it for several months, I took it apart for some practice in the winter that might apply to future projects (I think I'm hooked).  I have no idea how to post pictures yet, but you can see what I did here: http://picasaweb.google.com/BGFarmer0/LongRifleUpdate#, which includes one picture of the first assembly. 

Keep in mind that I've only seen a few "real ones" up close and mostly from pictures and reading, so I probably screwed up 20 things beyond the 100 or so I know about, but I did get some experience with parts and techniques that might be similar to ones in a real kit or build.  I'm the type that has to pee on the electric fence, so it works for me.  Since you actually know what you are doing, you might be able to do something similar but better with your nephew.

Oh yeah, I spliced the two pieces together (they didn't match anyway) and added a cheek-rest (to practice), which is the reason for the funky finish job; I was also thinking of a wearplate to mask the splice:).  I have seen/shot a few "nicer" rifles (and there are a lot more), but it is a pleasant rifle to shoot and has been very reliable as far as function.   

Anyway, I hope this is interesting feedback.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 11:15:43 PM »
bgf,
Welcome to the ALR board.
Nice adaptation of the CVA/Traditions kit.
Larry Luck

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 11:23:11 PM »
Well, take me back a ways!  Lots of folks cut their teeth on guns such as this one, and many a match was won back in the day.  I'd enjoy winning a match with such a gun even today.  Sort of like I enjoy winning a bike race over guys with $3500 bikes.

OK, back to the subject.  The trigger pull can be fixed by making a new trigger that is taller in front and pinning it higher in the stock.  I believe this one may pivot on a lug low on the trigger plate.  this will improve the geometry.

The buttplate should be filed off to be flush with the bottom of the stock.  You can make a nicer sideplate out of sheet brass of the same thickness.

Fixing the looks is more challenging because they leave too much wood in some places but don't leave you enough in others.  I'd strip the whole thing, begin taking off as much wood as you can on the fore-arm and fore-end, to where it is about 3/32 wide beside the barrel, and round it up nice to more of a feather edge and egg shape.

then you might carefully better define the lock panels and work on the transition areas that are kinda non-distinct IIRC.  Comb to wrist, cheekpiece to buttstock, lock panels, etc. Then add a molding along the lower buttstock and on the fore-end.

Now remove any remaining vestiges of stock stain or finish, and get creative.  I think these are stocked in beech which is plain dull wood.  You could learn to artificially stripe it like Jack Brooks shows on his website, then stain it whatever tone you like.  That would be appropriate for a percussion-era piece.  Anyhow, you'd be having fun and making it your own and getting some experience, if you need that.  PM or email me and send me pix and we can chat about it sometime if you want.

Captchee has shown some amazing modifications of production and entry-level kit guns elsewhere, so i hope he finds this.  Just read bgf's post; you won't find many nicer adaptations than that one.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:27:13 PM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 12:43:58 AM »
BGF,
Welcome to ALR and thanks for replying.  Is picture #1 "before" and the rest "after"?  That is a great looking rifle!  And I like that dark finish.  With work like that you need to post more often.  BTW.....  does BG stand for Blue Grass?

Rich,
Thanks.  I had thought of some of your suggestions, but there's some new ones in there, so thanks.  The stock wood on this thing is kind of interesting, not sure what it is.  I'll try to get some pictures up.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline bgf

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 04:28:04 AM »
KyFlinter,
The first picture is the kit when I put it together (the facsimile escutcheons excepted).  The rest of the pictures are after I got it back together.  I'm not sure its finished -- the weather looked like it was going to get nice and I wanted to shoot it:).
Yes, BG=bluegrass (SW of Lexington in my case). 
Mine is definitely beech, but selected so that neither side of the two parts of the stock match -- that was part of the reason for the dark finish, but I also like it.  I even rubbed some ebony stain where powder residue or sweat might have discolored one.  Working on a cheap kit means you can feel free to experiment, and I think that you and your nephew will have a good time building and shooting it. 

Thanks for the welcome everybody and for being kind to my submission.   I've enjoyed reading on this forum, but never had anything even remotely useful to offer before.  That rifle is my only attempt to build something of the sort, except for a similarly modified pistol from the same kit, because I thought I needed a lot more practice on some things (well, everything:)). 

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 04:19:30 PM »
WOW! I have that same rifle it sat in a gun vault sor 20+ years assembled instead of echlons they put wheat pennyes on what you did to inprove the looks I had no idea you could do that with them my son wants to try that with this gun thanks >:( for the exstra work not realy any time spent with the kids on this stuff is not work

Offline Captchee

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 08:28:52 PM »
Good morning folks
 Rich , thank you for the kind words .
BgF ,,,, Vey nice job ,, well done .

 I could talk for days on   this subject . But most times I find that  it falls on death ears .
  Myself I find that , yes , many of these guns were very good shooters .
 Most certainly not all but  IMO a vast majority .
 So much so that even today I do a lot of re vamping  and restocking . To the point that I have found myself  in the process of building a duplicator  to  make replacement stocks as a way to bring down the costs  of the hand made stocks that I do .

 If I could  give any advice , it would be to do  some research .
  Decide what you want . What you talents are  and go from there .

Lets talk alittle  about  some options  for what you have.
Bgf  did IMO a very nice job , so look at his example
 don’t get discouraged about the 2 piece stock . There are more then a few historic makers who produced long rifles with 2 piece stocks .  The drawback is that CVA doesn’t do it the way those makers did . But with some modification  you can  fix that .

 Cva also placed way more wood on their kits then what you need . This includes in the butt stock area . You will be surprised at how much you can change . Also as was said . Work on thinks like the mortises, wrists . Basically shaping things  will give you a much nicer rifle   with the stock you have .

As to the lock .
 While you will find folks that have used them for years with no issues .  That IMO is pretty much a rarity. The hammers , lock plats , springs ……. All are  for the most part soft . Not much you can do with them . If you do  decide to stay with the lock  . At least get you a  spare for  parts .
 Deer creek still carries CVA parts  so keep them in mind if you decide to stay with what you have .

As to your trigger isssue .
As was mention  for the most part the trigger will not be correct.
This is however compounded by the  full cock notch being very deep and  sometimes angled back  . Thus you get a trigger pull from $#*! .
 There is reasoning why  CVA  and traditions “ manufacture by Jukar “did this .
 But we don’t really need to go into that .
 This can be over come with a little work

Stock
 Your stock will be of beech or birch .
 Most common is Beech .   For things like carvings , its not real fun to work with . Its just to soft . But it does shape rather nicely .
 Hear again though  think about what you want  and do everything you can possibly do to make what you want , from what you have .
 Picture it in you mind  and then go to it .

 Now some other options you have is  replacements.
  IMO replacing the CVA lock is a good investment  and should be considered . Its not a must but it will  in the long run make you a rifle that’s 100 X better .
 For this I have used not only the L&R  replacements . But also Davis  Bailey ,makes a nice lock  that will also work . The Davis however will take relocating the lock bolt  or tapping into the  area  of the tang , behind the breech plug .

 For a stock , there are many places to go  ..
 You can go as far as building from a blank  or even a pre carve .
 Pre carve imo is a great option  because you can  get what ever you want  as far as shape . Then buy the  hardware for   that style  
 Price depends on what you want  but normally  you should be able to get a maple stock pre shaped  , side plate , butt plate , TG and thimbles that will suit  what you have  for under 100-120.00 ..
 However keep in mind , the more parts you replace , the closer you will be to building a  assembly. So weigh you options .price and spend  accordingly .
 Here are a few of the revamps I have done . Not all , just a few . but maybe  they will give you a minds eye as to what can be done .
 now please note . this is not to thump my own chest .
 but to give folks some ideas .  one of the fun things about doing what you wanting to do is that no mater what you do , you will have a better gun then  what you now have . it will still be a CVA , traditions or Jukar .
and you cant make a silk purse from a sows ear . but  you can make  a darn nice sows ear purse

 These are CVA bobcats . Both originally came with plastic stocks . Both use the heavier CVA locks ,
obviously these are complete re stocks .





this is a CVA kentuck
 

 this SXS is also a CVA that started life as a cap lock . i have no more then 300.00 in this . thast  locks , stock and the price of the CVA  i started with




same thing goes for pistols .
 here are some  pistols i have done .   on these no new parts were used . this is just working with what  was there .
and some elbow grease .





















 here is a little cheepy jukar that no one wanted . stared life looking like this
.PO said it wouldt hit a can at 5 ft . i wonder why LOL




  and when it left my shop , it looked like this






and shot a 10 and 20 yard groupl like this



 see its about what you  want in you mind . then setting your hands do making that come true , the best you can , with what you have .
 above all though ,  learn and have fun .
 


« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 11:13:37 PM by KyFlinter »

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 11:29:04 PM »
BGF,
We're practically neighbors!  I live in Lexington.  I'll be at the Salt River Long Rifles Rendezvous and shoot tomorrow and Saturday.  It's at the Mercer County Fish and Game Farm on Whites Lane near Harrodsburg.  Come on over for a visit and a sit by the fire.  

Captychee,
Thanks for taking time to reply and share your ideas.  Awesome transformations!  My ears are open and I hear ya.  You really do make a darn nice sows ear purse!  I asked my nephew to come over to the house last night....  didn't tell him why, just come over.  He was thinking I had maybe found him a deal on a stock or a barrel.  He about fell over when he saw an entire rifle.  He was interested before, but now he is fired up!  I sent him home with my copies of Kindig's "Thoughts" and Buchele's "Recreating the Ky LR" and the address to ALR.  He can't wait to get started.

Thanks for all the inputs fellows.  We're going to take some before pictures and then get to work when I get back from the rondy.

-Ron
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 11:31:38 PM by KyFlinter »
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline bgf

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 04:56:29 AM »
KyFlinter,
We are really close.  I'm south of Wilmore.  Thanks for letting me know about the Rendezvous -- I'll try to make it out if I can.  I looked it up and it seems like a public event, so I think my son (6) would like it, too.  He went to Friendship with me last fall and had a good time.



Captchee,
I really like those guns.  Amazing work.  I think I'll pull my pictures down:).  I saw the "scrap" pistol before, but all the others were new to me and very impressive as well.  Is that Kentucky a 2-piece that you refinished or a restock?  If its a refinish, you are a real artist. 

If I can figure out what you are doing with the triggers, I might copy it -- I already blacked mine out, and thought I was very clever, but you went even further.  Or is it a different version of the factory trigger?

From my limited knowledge, I agree with everything you said, although I'm hoping the lock and trigger last a couple thousand shots, by which time I hope to have a flintlock built.  The L&R replacement (RPL) lock looks good to me, but I was just going to use the original until it broke or wore out.  The pistol uses the same version as well, so I've got a backup:).   The Traditions lock I have has a sear engagement adjustment screw that makes it work pretty well when I keep the lock clean and lubricated (moly really works well, but I know it's not PC).  I think that is not universal to all Traditions and CVA's, though.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 05:50:33 AM »
 thank you for the kind words  Bgf .
 From what I can see BgF you did a very good job
With your build . The only reason I posted was to show how many other options one can come up with .
 please keep your links up .  what you did is IMO a very good exsample of what folks can do  with these peice if  the have a minds eye

 The Kentucky is a re stock .The customer wanted a full stock
 As I recall I got the stock for around 60.00 from Dic at Pecatonica . That was some years ago though .
As to the triggers . They all , to include the bobcats , retain the factory trigger .
 
 what i do is take the triggers out . i then forge them alittle more  so they are not so blocky . some i just file  and clean up
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 06:06:00 AM by Captchee »

Offline Captchee

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 06:14:21 AM »

 thinking back ?? on the flintlock pistol ? i cant say the trigger was a CVA ?
 that pistole was built from parts i had laying around the shop .
 the barrle and  stock was from a CVA .
 but the trigger doesnt look right . while i do remember modifying it . i dont really recall.
 myself i have little use for pistols  . but  one of the shoots i go to decided that they  were going to include pistol as part of the aggregate.
 So I slapped that together   figuring if I could at least hit a couple targets , it would give me a couple more points
LOL   

Offline bgf

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 06:52:20 AM »
Captchee,

Thanks for the trigger information -- I don't want to copy in the sense of infringing on any trade secrets, but more along the lines of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.  The more you work on this type of stuff it seems, the more little details you notice and get right (or in my case, at least know you got wrong). 

Your feeling toward pistols is a lot like mine; I bought one cheap for practice (lock panels, etc.) and spare parts.  In contrast to the rifle, which has hundreds of shots through it, the pistol is unfired after a month or more of being done.

I was just kidding about taking my pictures down -- I'm not ashamed of it , and even the mistakes give it some character and/or remind me of what I was doing at some point in my life.  If I waited to build the perfect rifle, I'd be dead before I finished:).

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 03:41:36 AM »
kyflinter,
Please excuse my oversight for not also welcoming you to the ALR Board.  I sort of got distracted by the rework of the CVA rifle and fumbled the ball.
I have enjoyed this thread.
Larry Luck

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 02:16:48 PM »
I'd pound it in the ground and use it as an interesting tomato stake. ;) Seriously though, those old CVA barrels shot extremely well.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 07:07:36 PM »
Captchee - amazing work.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 09:23:40 PM »
 Thank you all for the kind words .
 I rather like working on  these type guns  now and then .because I can let my mind wonder  and the juices flow .  its fun to  try different things  instead of sticking to a strict set of  principles and or reference

 Take the scrap  pistol .
 Now some folks are going to go  ARRRRRR sacrilege.
 i know , ill also probably hear about it  some where down the road  ::)


 But at the time it seemed kind of funny
   one afternoon  a couple fellas and I were setting around the shop casting Rbs and having a few beers
  One of them turned   and tossed me a beer can and said , bet to 10 bucks you cant inlet this .

 So  figured , why not  . I grabbed my snips  and did .
 The wire work is  aluminum cut from a beer can   :D

. now would i do that for someone else ahhhhhh no   . but it did , after some complaining  win we 10 bucks lol  ;D
.
 The point is , . If the piece is yours , then just have fun .   The only standard it has to meet is yours . Enjoy it , learn from it
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 09:25:28 PM by Captchee »

Offline bgf

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2010, 06:23:50 AM »
KyFlinter and Ottawa,
Here's a fairly complete list of what I did; the order may be a little off.  As before, these are offered as just what I did (I'm working from my planning list and memory), not saying you should do anything like it, but thought it might help to get started.

*locate wood that is close match to stock; found in chair that broke, but I couldn't throw away!  It didn't matter that much in the end, but that wood stained exactly the same as the stock, although only heaven knows what it is!  I have more if you need it.

*splice two pieces of stock together with steel tubing set into drilled out RR channel with epoxy, retaining original index pins
*dovetail wood around stock in spliced area -- could/should? have gone with upside down saddle shaped
"wear plate" as originally intended; checkering this area might also be a good option
*cut back forearm at rear entry pipe (this lengthens the forestock and makes the barrel look a little
longer -- at least that's my theory)
* plug unnecessary inletting around triggerguard
*inlet & pin rear entry pipe
*fit and pin forward entry pipes
*thin wood/round off forearm & muzzle cap to barrel
*cut molding line on forestock
*shape forestock behind muzzle cap and above RR channel
*shape muzzle cap (reduced RR channel depth)
*clean up, inlet and pin trigger guard (I went with a screw in the back, because I thought it looked cool on some originals)
*add and shape cheekpiece
*flute/taper comb, further blending and shaping cheekpiece
*cut molding lines in butt-stock
*re-shape lock panels
*make patchbox  (out of sheet and hinge) and inlet it; this one took a while, although it looks like I slapped it together
*inlet escutheons, wrist and cheek inlays
*file up and add sideplate, countersinking for lock screws

I think the total for additional parts is around $40, although I could have saved a bit by making more of the brass inlays from what was left over from the patchbox.  Of course, a patchbox and catch kit, would push the parts way over $60, which I thought was excessive:). 

badnuz1957

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 01:34:53 AM »
I have a CVA Kentucky that I bought in finished form back in the '70s.  I would like to start shooting it again, but I too am a bit put off by the trigger.  I am planning to order a new lock (found one at Track of the Wolf), but would appreciate it if someone could recommend a replacement trigger.... THANKS!!

Offline Captchee

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 04:59:18 PM »
 triggers are up to you  really .  Your new lock  most likely will have a fly on the tumbler . If so  you could  go with a double set or single trigger
 Getting one that just drops in  will be an issue .
 So  IMO one should look at it as a new updated item that needs inlet .
Myself I like Davis triggers  when it comes to double sets

badnuz1957

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2010, 05:14:26 PM »
triggers are up to you  really .  Your new lock  most likely will have a fly on the tumbler . If so  you could  go with a double set or single trigger
 Getting one that just drops in  will be an issue .
 So  IMO one should look at it as a new updated item that needs inlet .
Myself I like Davis triggers  when it comes to double sets

Thanks for the information Captchee.  This gives me a starting point...
Kevin

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 05:42:29 PM »
Ken,
Maybe this will give you/nephew more thoughts on using the CVA.

Back in the 70's I bought a Numrich Arms Minuteman percussion full stocked .45, to this day it was the most accurate muzzleloader I have owned!

I hunted with it a few times and hung it over the mantle. When I retired and got interested in building muzzleloaders I decided to re-stock it. Wanted to do it from scratch. A friend gave me a 2" X 9" X 5ft board of local "swamp" maple (probably red maple).

I used that for the stock, bought a double set trigger, made the sideplate and found a used trigger guard and reworked it. Re-used the barrel/lock/screws and other parts off the Numrich rifle. Made a good shooter and I certainly learned a lot about building! I think (other than original cost) I think I had about $50 in the refurbished rifle.
Dennis
 
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 02:47:23 AM »
Captchee, I like what youve done,
Quote
The point is , . If the piece is yours , then just have fun .   The only standard it has to meet is yours . Enjoy it , learn from it
This is great for a new interest like me, with little background or reference material to study, thx......... :) Kerry

Offline bdixon

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2010, 06:58:39 PM »
My 13 year old nephew has been given an old finished kit just like this, the lock is so bad that it is almost unusable, the last shot we took from this rifle was manually ignited to get the bore clear, if you put your finger under the cock and fire it, it doesnt even produce enough force to hurt.  I just ordered a replacement from track for the entire lock as I know nothing of the history of this gun other than it is in really good shape except for the lock and it is his first rifle and he is proud, so as not to give him a sour taste for the sport I am going to upgrade to keep him interested and not frustrated.  Will post results of new lock.

Brett.

badnuz1957

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Re: Ideas for improving the looks and function of a CVA Kentucky?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2010, 08:25:59 PM »
Brett,
Let me know if the lock you ordered is in stock - mine was back-ordered last week.  Thanks!
badnuz1957