carving lock panels

[The other DWS]

I'm at the point on my project that I'm shaping the lock panels.  It's giving me nightmares.  to start with is a precarved stock that had a milled semi-inlet for the sideplate and the lock recess was about 90% inletted  (yeah I know about pre-carves--from experience now)  the curve of the sideplate and the curve of the lock are not parallel, symmetrical or whatever, the sideplate has its tail up higher on the wrist than the lock.  How critical is that form of side to side symmetry?  I know that you can't see both sides at the same time, and for all I know the originals varied somewhat in that regard.  Even though I can't see both sides at the same time I can feel the variation when I handle it with my eyes closed which is the way I judge a lot of my wood shaping.

what is driving me nuts is trying to keep the two lockpanels about the same shape--even approximately.  How do you experienced guys do it?  Do you have lockpanel templates you use or something?  I seem to be taking a little off to adjust one side, then some more off the other to correct it, than back and forth, and back and forth, and panels are getting narrower and narrower.

[keweenaw]

It's more important to have the tails of the lock panels at the same position on the wrist than to have the side plate centered in the panel.  If you look at a lot or original guns many have the side plate nicely aligned, many don't.  You need to start with the lock side, shape out the panel there, remembering to keep the flat around the lock fairly narrow and the have the tail more or less centered on the wrist.  Then shape the other panel to about the same dimensions.   Some workers simply trace the lock panel and then shape the other panel the same.  Many original guns aren't quite that symmetrical.  I would advise you not to go back and forth, just establish the lock side and then do the other one.  And don't worry if they aren't exact mirror images!

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

That's good advice Tom.  About all I worry about is to have the panels the same lenght and to have the tail of each in approximately the same position relative to the wrist height.  Beyond that, I shape each side independently to look the best.  This will often result in the two panels being quite a bit different.

[The other DWS]

Thank you, thats very good to know.
I made the mistake of trying to get both of the panel tails on the curved center line of the lock and the sideplate--and the curved center lines are not completely parallel. I guess I was too concerned with the sideplate looking misaligned on the panel.
  Mine may be a little bit too far off to even up completely  as far a height on the wrist goes, but I think I can at least get the tails the same length. 

[G-Man]

On the few I have built, I found it helpful to do the lock side first and get it nice and slim and very close to final form, then do a pencil rubbing, cut it out, and shape the sideplate side close to the pattern, most importantly making sure the tail and nose line up as Jim said.  I then tweak each side to make them individually look best, and appearing generally consistent, without them necessarily being "mirror" images.  Most orginal longrifles using two-bolt sideplates obviously made the sideplate to fit the lock, whereas today if you are using a pre-inlet stock you are trying to use a pre-set sideplate pattern with a lock and stock shape that weren't necessarily made to go with it.  So you have to take some liberties, just don't make them drastic enough that they jump out.  For example, I have found the same thing you are describing - i.e. if the sideplate sits high the sideplate panel might look big and clunky if you make it the exact same size and shape as  the lock panel, so you can cheat a little off the bottom edge of the sidplate panel, give it a slight radius, etc. to help it visually.  When you are at that stage of stcok shaping a 1/16 of an inch can (should) make a big difference visually with regard to the appearance.

BTW - I find the pencil rubbing/ paper pattern very helpful when laying out a patchbox as well - you can place it on the stock and stand back from the gun to take in the overall lines and see how it flows, and adjust the placement and angle of the patchbox until it looks right.

Guy

[Stophel]

I will usually cut them from sheet brass, with the pattern drawn out already to go with the lock, leaving it slightly oversize for fitting.  I do the rear hole first, then line up the front one very carefully to the proper position on the stock to go in the "web".  Once the holes are in, I can then adjust the rear as necessary by shaping or bending it the direction I need it to go. When I'm satisfied that it will lay on the side panel (which is already shaped at this point to match the lock side) then I will inlet it.   

Pre-made sideplates can generally be bent rather easily, so you MAY be able (depending upon the design) to bent the end down where it should be....if it isn't inlet already, that is!

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

What everybody has said. .........Lock panel first then trace a pattern. get the tail of the panel even with the tail fof the lock panel then shape the side panel to look good on its side..... then cut or reshape your sideplate to fit/look good.... BTW... If the sideplate was machine inlet to deep you may be stuck with that position ...BUT if not you can file the inlet away and make your own inlet where you want it...... precarves usually have too much meat on the side panel.... measure the width of wood from the side if the breech to the surface of the side panel..... many time this dimension is a little thinner than the same spot on the lock side.... so you may be able to take some wood off to get rid of the sprecarve sideplate inlet.....See Peter Alexander's comments and measurements on page 119 of the Gunsmith of Grenville County....

Lesson I have learned is to get the sidepanel the way you want it and then shape the plate to fit..

[Stophel]

It's already inlet, ya gotta go with what ya got.   

Actually, depending upon the original sideplate design, it could be possible to make a new plate with a better shape, taking care to completely encompass all the original inletting.

It is a precarve, and don't fret too much over it.  There are plenty of old guns with less than stellar sideplate positioning.   

[The other DWS]

[It is a precarve, and don't fret too much over it.  There are plenty of old guns with less than stellar sideplate positioning.   
[/quote]

Thank goodness for that.  lessons well learned for the next project.    I've got it about 90 shaped and sanded and decided to wipe a coat of stain on to see how it'd look, knowing full well I'd be scraping a fair amount of the stain back off. 
Once you get the stain on it shows every little scratch, ding, and flaw that you don't see against the white maple, don't it?   wow!   I think from now on I'll make a premature coat of stain a regular part of the building process.

[Roger Fisher]

Far be it from me to advise anyone on this; but for what it's worth:::::

The tracing of the lock inlet to swap over on to the sideplate side helps a lot.  Taking the stock out of the padded vise and eyeballing the contour of each side to get them even as you can is a help also.   Soft pencil the spots that are rough or high and take them off as you go.  Again eyeball the panels from both sides, top, bottom and from the butt end.  I find that I use a small gouge to get that nice concave turn at the top of the rear section of the panels a chisel for the top of the front panel and, of all things a snapped off fine cut ratail file to shape around the panels or a section of ramrod wrapped with 150 or so paper.   As you work you will find what works (and probably what will not) and how to get both side pretty well balanced........

[Pete G.]

If the two panels are uneven on the wrist you won't like it. I've got one like that and I can feel it every time I shoulder the rifle. Get the panels close and make sure to keep the top and bottom edges narrow. Design your own sideplate to fit the panel. Cut it out of manila folder, put in place and stand back and examine. You'll probably modify several times.
As for scratches, I like to just sit and handle the almost finished rifle and circle any areas that need attention with a pencil. After cleaning those up a light maple stain will show a lot of imperfections that you missed that time also.
BTW, Aqua Fortis does not show small scratches, and the color and depth is unbeatable. Just remember that it will darken with time so don't overdo it at the start.

[Don Getz]

Have you ever done this to shape the offside lock panel?   I finish inletting the lock and will have the lock bolts in place.
Next, take a piece of plain, white paper and lay it on the lock panel, insert the two lock bolt thru it, and then do a rubbing
around the perimeter of the lock panel.   Remove the paper and cut it out with a scissors, then place it on the side plate
side and insert the lock bolts thru the holes, this will align it with the lock side.   Then draw around it with a pencil and
remove the paper and bolts.  This will get you in the ball park, modify it if you must, but at least it will be close to the
lock side................Don

[The other DWS]

this has been really educational.  Too late to do much for this rifle,  fortunately the backstory on this rifle calls for a bit of non-professional quality woodwork, so the layout errors won't be out of context.  but it'll be good to know ways to do a better layout job on future projects.  I'm thinking that making a thin metal template for each different lock I get my hands on might not be a bad idea.

[Long John]

The,

Also, don't be afraid to chuck the side plate and make a new one that is a little bigger so it can take a new inlet and is the shape YOU want.  On th eone pre-carve gun I did (I was asked to assemble it after the purchaser discovered that it was more than he could handle) The bolts were put in the wrong place, the side plate inlet was messed-up and it was utterly impossible to use teh side plate that came with the kit.  Side plates are easyto make!

Best Regards,

JMC

[flintriflesmith]

Have you ever done this to shape the offside lock panel?   I finish inletting the lock and will have the lock bolts in place.
Next, take a piece of plain, white paper and lay it on the lock panel, insert the two lock bolt thru it, and then do a rubbing
around the perimeter of the lock panel.   Remove the paper and cut it out with a scissors, then place it on the side plate
side and insert the lock bolts thru the holes, this will align it with the lock side.   Then draw around it with a pencil and
remove the paper and bolts.  This will get you in the ball park, modify it if you must, but at least it will be close to the
lock side................Don

Don,
I did it just that way for years but I decided that when I'm using a commercial lock that I think I'll use more than once I'd make the templete out of thin clear plastic. So far I have one for a couple of Jim Chamber's locks.
Gary

[J. Talbert]

Don,

I have used that same method.

Jeff

[Stophel]

That's how I mark off the sideplate side.  Paper, and rub my dirty fingers across it to make the "rubbing".  Might have to shift it forward slightly to accommodate the angle of the lock bolts.

[Don Getz]

Gary.........good idea.   Most of the guns I build I use standard siler locks and could easily make something like you have,
by doing this and applying that shape to the lock plate side, it at least gets you in the ball park.   You can always make
slight changes to accommodate the gun you are working on...........Don

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

After I've inlet the lock and have the lock bolts in, I get the lock molding as close as I feel comfortable with.  Then I use a piece of cereal box cardboard, punch a hole for the rear bolt, take the lock out, and lay the cardboard over the panel.  Insert the bolt from the lock side.  Pass the forward bolt through from the off side and press the paper onto the threaded end to make a mark.  Punch the hole for the forward bolt.  Now you can run the forward bolt through the paper from the lock side too.  I press down the cardboard along the edge of the panel, creating a fine crease on the back side of the paper. Then I remove it and with a sharp pencil, I darken this crease.  I cut out the paper pattern on the line, and then reinstall it on the off side using both the bolts to locate it.  Draw around the pattern.  This will give you a mirror image of the panel, plus a pencil line thickness.
Even with this method, it is important to view the panel from above and below, to ensure that the ends are opposite each other.  The taper in the panels can throw things off a little, so watch for this.
I always save the cardboard patterns, but I rarely use them again, as there is always a little nuance in each molding that is a little different.

[The other DWS]

I really appreciate you guys sharing your info.  This is a really important phase in making a visually well balanced rifle. I know this has been a real educational thread for me and I'll be copying and pasting it to my permanent reference file

Thanks