AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Dancy on May 10, 2010, 02:16:51 PM
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What is a minimum hunting load that would provide adequate trajectory in a 62 caliber rifle? I have no experience with the larger bores and would need a decent hunting load as well as a light plinking load that would be easy to shoot. I was thinking maybe 120 grains FF and then a half charge of 60 as a starting point. Thoughts on twist rates would be appreciated too. Oh, I would not be shooting much over 100 yards, maybe 120 at the most for hunting.
James
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I shot a bear with 100gr FFg Worked fine! I plink with 80 gr, but, honestly don't plink much with them.
I've got other rifles for that. When hunting, I usually load 100 to 120 gr FFg
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Where I hunt here in Michigan seventy yards is about the longest shot I will have.I use sixtyfive grains of two "F" Goex .604 ball and .020 patch with bear grease for lube.Most deer are dropped in their tracks. I use the the same load for woodswalks don't care much for paper punching. Eric D. Lau Riverdale Mi.
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I plink with 100 grains FF and hunt with 120.
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I have no experience with the larger bores and would need a decent hunting load as well as a light plinking load that would be easy to shoot.
I was thinking maybe 120 grains FF and then a half charge of 60 as a starting point. Thoughts on twist rates would be appreciated too.
Oh, I would not be shooting much over 100 yards, maybe 120 at the most for hunting.
For my hunting eastern whitetails in here in the the woods of North Carolina, my typical shot is 40-50 yards...longest ever was only 70 yards down a logger's road with a .54cal...so "long range" trajectory wasn't a very big issue and I just went with a mid range powder charge of 100grns Goex 2F (or 90grns Goex 3F) in both my .58 & .62cal rifles.
Always got complete pass through, except for one time I shot a buck straight in the chest as he was approaching me head on...the ball traveled the entire length of his body and stopped, bulging the hide out on the back side of the right ham.
I don't plink with big .62cal balls so I have no target load so to speak...if I did, I suspect I'd use 75-80grns.
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Lots of folks shooting the 20 ga smoothbore use about 90 grains for a hunting load and do OK up to about 50 yards and hunt Black bear over bait with them. Most have proven effective with very moderate loads. I built a 62 for a person and I don't think the finish was even fully dry when he shot an 8 pointer with it. He claimed to have used 70 gr 3f at about 25 yards. More than a couple of guys I know use about 90 grains in a 58. One of the advantages of the big bores is that even thugh they may start a little slower they retain velocity better such htat hey will shoot a little flatter than a small bore at the same MV. Looking at the LYman tables a 45 going at 1900 fps will hit at the same velocity at 100 yards as a 50 at 1800fps and a 54 the same velcoity as a 50 at 1800 fps at the muzzle. Some issues of accuracy, which tend to be unique to the barrels may enter in. I had a 58 that really did not shoot well unless I used 140 gr of 2f. You may have to experiment for accuracy, but for large game hunting some tend to get a little carried away. One inch groups are not needed at 100 yards for a deer load if that is you max range.
DP
DP
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J.D. with respect to trajectory, with 60 gr of powder I'd expect you to get around 800 fps of muzzle velocity; 1100 fps mv with 80 gr and maybe 1200-1300 fps at the muzzle with 120 grains. If you were to sight in to be zeroed at 50 yds with a 60 gr charge for paper punching, you'd hit 2" high at 25 yds, dead on at 50 and 6 or 7 inches low at 100. If you up your powder charge to 80 grains for 100 yard paper punching you'd maybe hit an inch or two low at 100 yds.
The more you increase powder charge and muzzle velocity to compensate for drop at 100 yds and hit 'dead on' at 100, the higher your bullet path is going to be at the middle ranges.
Since your question was about trajectory, you might try the RB ballistics calculator at this link:
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html
It seems to work pretty well, although I think the "Drop" it computes is more properly "Bullet path" (the difference between line of sight and the bullet's trajectory at a given distance). If you had a good chronograph to see what muzzle velocities you're actually getting, rather than book estimates, it would really help your analysis.
Good luck, SCL
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I confess a small measure (my wife says "large") of laziness. I have a particular 90 grain powder measure I really like, and I use it for hunting loads in my 50, 54 and 58 caliber rifles, Goex 3f all. I'm contemplating a 62 cal at the moment, and without a doubt I'll try it first with that measure. While longer shots are offered, I hold mine to 75 yards. Sighted in at that range the 50 cal is barely an inch high at 50, the 54 is much the same, and the 58 is barely over an inch. Sight height comes into that, and I try to keep mine fairly short. With tall sights, I'd expect more "rise."
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120gr is pretty stout - on both ends
most folks use 85-90 gr ff or fff
I have used 55ff in my Tulle - with no sights, trajectory is not an issue - about 60yds is max
It usually ends up like this:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi34.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd104%2Fcptleo1%2F101-0139_IMG.jpg&hash=4167d1f1e104bc76b920c9f9cbbf369e65164b88)
Deer don't take much kiilling
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Someone more in the know than me tells me that alot of original hunting outfits with chargers and gun point to about 25% of ball weight for the size of the charger. This would work out good for close range and give you alot more power with the double charge if you think you would need it. Gary
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i have used a 62 for yrs, and i like 50 gr 2f goex for plinking and 100 for hunting. farthest shot ive made was about 135 yds on a 2 point (western count) buck. hit him right where i wanted, in the chest, full penetration of course. he went about 35 yds. mark
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J.D. with respect to trajectory, with 60 gr of powder I'd expect you to get around 800 fps of muzzle velocity; 1100 fps mv with 80 gr and maybe 1200-1300 fps at the muzzle with 120 grains.
Unless there's a HUGE drop in velocities for moving from 58 cal to 62 cal, there's something wrong with those #'s. I'm getting 1522fps average velocity from 90 grains of Goex 3f in a 36" barrel and 1235fps from 60 grains. With 120 grains of Goex 2f I'm getting 1670fps.
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Brown Bear, I based those numbers on data from the Lyman BP Handbook, and there is apparently considerable difference between their printed data and what you're reporting. Their mv for 90 gr Goex (in a 28" barrel) for a .560 RB is 1150 fps (compared to your 1522 fps). They don't provide data for a 62 cal ball, but for 7/8 oz lead shot out of a 32" barrel, 20 ga, say 82 grains will give 1150 fps.
I'll concede chronographed numbers trump printed tables.
SCL
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Interesting! I just cross-checked, and it's apparent you're using the old manual (1975). The newer one (2005) shows 1166 for 60 grains of 2f Goex from a 32" barrel with .570 balls, 1392 for 90 grains and 1625 with 120 grains- once again, all 2f. I'm using Goex 3f for my 60 and 90 grain charges, and I note that the second manual uses a 32" rather than 28" barrel in addition to the .570 rather than .560 ball. My barrel is 36" and rifled.
All in all, I bet both our numbers are within line, allowing for the differences in barrel length and ball diameter and 3f versus 2f for two of the loads. So many 62 cal barrels are on the order of 42" and smoothbore, so those would be factors in comparison, too.
Aint guns (and reloading manuals) a marvel!
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I gave a range of 100 to 120 gr FFg 'cause it depends on what I'm hunting. If back of the house; deer, bear etc 100 it is, but when out for moose I load 120 gr. I know that 100 will kill a moose, but I like the little better trajectory , just because moose are so big that I've judged them closer than they really were more than once. Once past 100 yds, the balls drop pretty fast not to mention the alder twigs the ball sees and I more than likely didn't. :)
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just because moose are so big that I've judged them closer than they really were more than once.
Ain't that the truth!!!!
I whacked one years ago with a modern handgun, sure as I could be that it was about 30 yards away. Good thing I was young, optimistic and well-practiced, because I misjudged the distance a wee bit. Imagine my surprise when it paced off at 92 yards. Tunnel vision? Me? Nah. ::)
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Thanks all for the information!
How about rate of twist? How fast do you need to shoot the light loads accurately and still work well with the heavy loads?
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I shoot 80gr of FFF in my Tulle for everything. .600 ball and a .015 patch seems to do the trick just fine. As far as rate of twist , I just go with a smoothie, and never have to complicate matters. At 75-80 yds, anything with vitals over the size of a small pie plate is dinner. I am a firm believer that bigger is better with round ball on game. Not to say a 45 or 50 for deer isn't just fine, because it is, I just like the bigger hole.
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How about rate of twist?
When Ed Rayl made my .62cal rifled barrel, he suggested 1:72" as the all-around .62cal twist, and sure enough it was a tack driver as the old saying goes...so I assume that's probably the typical twist rate
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i just picked up a tulle and a mold from a long time shooter, he only shot with 65 gr of 2f goex, i made about 90 roundballs an they were good but i put them in a tumbler for a couple hrs, they look great, measure .602,took off all the imperfections, but i caught a lot of static from him ie do not tumble roundball, anyway i ordered stuuf from track to shoot shot an i,m looking for info on shooting balls an shot, thanks in advance
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Wow! Got a lot of big bore fans here. Sounds like all are happy with their performance. I have to admit the 62 I saw at the TN show looked pretty intimidating to me, thus my interest in a setup to shoot light loads too. Thanks SC for the link to the ballistics calculator. Anybody else have thoughts about twist? I'm sure Roundball's Rayle barrel does great with standard loads as stated, but not sure if 1:72 is fast enough for 50-60 grain loads?
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I'm sure Roundball's Rayle barrel does great with standard loads as stated, but not sure if 1:72 is fast enough for 50-60 grain loads?
Based on experience in other calibers, it would never occur to me to worry about that. In 50, 54 and 58 cal, all my slow twist barrels really thrive on light loads... as in 30-35 grains of 3f Goex. I use all of them for head shooting snowshoe hares, and they'll cut ragged hole groups at 25 yards and virtually that small at 50 yards. Best of all, with the guns all sighted in at 75 yards, they put the groups exactly to point of aim at 25 yards.
I'd be downright shocked if a 1:72 62 cal doesn't perform the same way!
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Yes, and actually Rayl's questioning of my intent and purpose to use the .62cal was to decide between a 1:72 and a 1:104" (something just over 100)...his discussion never entertained anything faster than 1:72"
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My 16 bore rifle, .662 ball, makes 1600 with 140 gr of FF Swiss. 30" Barrel.
A 20 should do close to this with 120.
Dan
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OK, so 1:72 would be considered somewhat of a fast twist for a 62 round ball shooter then.
If 120 grains would shoot close to 1600 fps, that's all the speed I would ever need then. Good to know.
James
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I've carried and hunted with a 62 for close to 30 years. 120 gr for paper or hunting. Never could figure why you would have a hunting load and a different paper load. Never could figure why you have a different load for deer, for elk or for bear. Me, I've always loaded for the biggest thing in the forrest. From antelope to buffalo, 120gr has taken them all
Black Ed
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I started working up a load for my Virginia rifle after I got it shootable. The higher the charge went the tighter the groups got and the higher on the paper they went. I stopped at 140 grs. of 2f with the hits clustered into a 3 inch circle about 2 inches high on our 100 yd target. I have a mark scribed down in my horn measure for a 100 grs because the club doesn't like me mashing up their metal clangers and dongers although it is fun to see that 60 yd crow target go flying off through the woods like a boo-a-rang! ;D The recoil of the 140 gr load is a bit starchy but nothing you can't get used to. I learned from the Spergia's to use a heavy patch well soaked with virtuous maiden water to prevent any burn-through problems.
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I've carried and hunted with a 62 for close to 30 years. 120 gr for paper or hunting. Never could figure why you would have a hunting load and a different paper load. Never could figure why you have a different load for deer, for elk or for bear. Me, I've always loaded for the biggest thing in the forrest. From antelope to buffalo, 120gr has taken them all
Black Ed
cause paper dont take as much killin' as an elk!!! ;) im also a little sensitive to recoil and it saves powder and doesnt bend up the steel as bad. mark
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Mark,
Back when I had strong arms and really good eyes I never really felt the recoil. I figured learn where she shoots with your hunting load and keep the load consistant. That leads, for me, to better over all accuracy.
I've made a few spectacular shots with that load and that rifle. Now, The eyes are pretty well gone and the arms aren't as steady as they once were. Trying to shoot using bifocals is a bitch and the barrel isn't held as steady as it once was. I guess the only thing that's the same is the 120gr in the load.
Black Ed
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ed, i know exactly about the bifocals, weaker arms etc. gettin' old aint for sissies, is it? mark
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Like DP - my late 1970's and 1980's .58's all required 140gr. to shoot accurately - but that was a long time ago and powders are better now.
My current .58 double rifle shoots well with 100gr. 2F so far, with experimentation with larger balls and more powder before it's a true moose rifle. The Musketoon's 48" twist will shoot into a ragged hole at 50 yards using 120gr. 2F and gives up 1,308fps using a mere 75gr. 2F- same speed as the old Lyman books'about equivalence to 115gr.2F. I didn't chronograph the 120gr. load but assume it's up around 1,700fps, based upon the chronographed 75gr. charge.
My .69 will shoot identically in accuracy and elevation-wise nowadays, with 140gr. of current 2f GOEX to what it used to take165gr. of the 1980's 2F GOEX. THAT's a moose load and it staggers them at 100 yards producing only 1,500fps. with the 480gr. ball. It's a flat shooting load, for a big round ball. I plink with this 14 bore a lot, using 82gr. 2F - shoots well at up to about 100yards, but that is little more than a deer load, for me. Sure, it's more than needed, but I also want flat trajectory within the rifle's accuracy and power range. For the 14 bore (.69), that's a good 200 yards on moose. The 200yard contest last year showed every one of my hits a kill hit at 200yards, from standing and sitting supported postions. If attempting this sort of thing, one should shoot at that range to prove the rifle and shooter.
The 20 bore 1/2 stock smoothie gets 82gr.(3 drams) for targets to 50 yards and 100gr. for plinking past that on the longer trail targets. The 100gr. charge IS more accurate at longer ranges.
I prefer 2f for the larger bores due to the easier trip for the patching. This is due to 3F's pressure causing patches to fail that will take the lower pressure of 2F at the same velocity.
20 bore seem to drop sub sonic (by sound) around 60 to 65gr. 2F. There is a big visual and sound difference on targets between a 65gr. and an 82gr. charge. The extra velocity does matter, even with round balls.
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Another 62 of some fame is the military English Baker rifle. It had a twist of 1-120 and some pretty spectacular shots were claimed with it. Load was about 110 grains I believe. While not a hunting arm, I would guess that that load was considered Ok for a variety of ranges.
DP
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Until the advent of the minnie-ball, powder charges used by militaries were very heavy. I don't know what the Brit's used in the Bess' ctgs. but the American .69's ctgs. contained 165gr. until about 1828, then dropped to 135gr. with the improvement in military powders. Seems to me the Bess' charge was up around 120gr.
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I just ordered a 16 gauge smoothie english fusil/45" barrel.I was wondering if you heavy bore guys can give me some load info or hunting info to get me started with this new baby.....What kind of load would i use for deer/blackbear???.....is the 16 accurate???...sonny
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I would use the load that gave me the tightest group at 50 to 75 yards. I would project (guess) that to be in the neighbourhood of around 100gr. 2F with a .648" ball and .020" patch.
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I live in PA land of the flintlock....what I am about to tell you is not for anyone to try...I have done it successfully for over 20 plus years...I shoot 2 balls with 80 grains of 2 F....it snake eyes at 50 yards...knocks deer senseless...I only do this because I believe in humane kills, and my eyes are not good with open sights...I use two loose patches
which I can thumb down to start each...one on top the other...then and this is mandatory, ram both balls down
together...any air between the balls and the barrel could explode...see, not worth trying...mark your ramrod
for 2 balls and 80 grains of powder for the .62....again, I am not recommending anyone try this...just a good
topic for discussion....
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To load that way for sonny- he'd be shooting over 800gr. of lead with about 95gr. to 100gr. of powder for similar speed as your's kyperflints - probably not making the speed of sound- perhaps 800fps to 900fps. At close range, it might work just fine, as in point blank - but could require considerable elevation or most certainly testing. I would not recommend it either, due to the ball-separation problem, but especially not with a heavier, 1 oz. ball. You could be taking the risk of gun damage due to the recoil itself. Double balling small calibers means very little, but changes quickly with ball sizes over .62. Even a pair of .595" balls weighs around 580gr. to 600gr., almost 100gr. heavier than a minie bullet.
The 16 is as accurate as you load it.
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What is a minimum hunting load that would provide adequate trajectory in a 62 caliber rifle? I have no experience with the larger bores and would need a decent hunting load as well as a light plinking load that would be easy to shoot. I was thinking maybe 120 grains FF and then a half charge of 60 as a starting point. Thoughts on twist rates would be appreciated too. Oh, I would not be shooting much over 100 yards, maybe 120 at the most for hunting.
James
This will depend of the trajectory you want and the stock design. People must remember that most American rifles after 1780 are not suitable for a 62 caliber ball and many before are not either.
Rifles of this caliber and above must be carefully stocked and the style has to be correct for RECOIL MANAGEMENT.
A Early Kentucky like the Dickert #48 in RCA would work I think.
But building a one of the late Golden Age guns in this caliber would be serious mistake.
SO...
I would shoot no less than 100 grains and likely 120. Where I live this will give a 110-140 yard point blank for the animals I hunt. Velocity needs to be at least 1600-1700 for best point blank.
If you live where the ranges will never exceed 50-75 yards then the trajectory requirements are less demanding and a 20 bore shotgun like powder charge may well work IF it will produce decent accuracy at 75 to 100.
The heavy load will have about the same velocity at 100-110 as the lighter load will at 50 or so.
AS a result killing power, other than at ranges where the heavy load has a significant velocity advantage, will be the same.
So the load will depend on:
1. Accuracy heavy loads usually shoot better in rifles or smooth bore guns. Shooting inaccurate loads at large game is irresponsible.
2. Recoil characteristics of the firearm.
3. The range needed.
The recoil thing, and lack of historical documentation, is the primary reason I would advise people not to build a .62 caliber Kentucky and especially if the stock design has not already been used for a "bore" rifle previously.
People wanting a rifle over 58 caliber are well advised to use an English rifle as a pattern. The buttstocks are very much the same from 1750 to 1860. Just the decoration and the forends, 1/2 stock late or full early are different.
Double balls? I would not bother even with 50 cal. If the caliber is not capable of killing the critter with a single ball then a bigger ball is needed.
Other than in a few legends I doubt that double balls were ever used that much in the past. Uses twice the lead to do the same job with a lot more recoil.
Dan
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Quote: I learned from the Spergia's to use a heavy patch well soaked with virtuous maiden water to prevent any burn-through problems. end quote.
Ok, where do you get this stuff and is it bottled like LHV? Hmm,VMW?
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I just ordered a 16 gauge smoothie english fusil/45" barrel.I was wondering if you heavy bore guys can give me some load info or hunting info to get me started with this new baby.....What kind of load would i use for deer/blackbear???.....is the 16 accurate???...sonny
Load development is an idividual thing.
Its a smooth bore so accuracy will be relative.
Dan
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Quote: I learned from the Spergia's to use a heavy patch well soaked with virtuous maiden water to prevent any burn-through problems. end quote.
Ok, where do you get this stuff and is it bottled like LHV? Hmm,VMW?
LB,
VMW is not a brand name. I can supply a gallon (or ~3.9 litres in Canada) of Old Kentucky Patch Lube and Bore Solvent for $8 + standard shipping & handling. It has been chastely sequestered in my cistern for a minimum of 4 years, loading it with microparticles of scouring cleanser and a yearning desire to keep your bore clean even as you shoot. Order now, as the downspout has been turned off, so there will never be any more, just the couple of hundred gallons still remaining. That's OK Patch Lube and Bore Solvent (OK PL & BS) -- order yours now.
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Daryl, did I misread or did you mistype? I have a .62 smoothbore. I cast .600 balls and they weigh only around 330 (+ or -) grains when cast from pure lead.
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Quote: I learned from the Spergia's to use a heavy patch well soaked with virtuous maiden water to prevent any burn-through problems. end quote.
Ok, where do you get this stuff and is it bottled like LHV? Hmm,VMW?
LB,
VMW is not a brand name. I can supply a gallon (or ~3.9 litres in Canada) of Old Kentucky Patch Lube and Bore Solvent for $8 + standard shipping & handling. It has been chastely sequestered in my cistern for a minimum of 4 years, loading it with microparticles of scouring cleanser and a yearning desire to keep your bore clean even as you shoot. Order now, as the downspout has been turned off, so there will never be any more, just the couple of hundred gallons still remaining. That's OK Patch Lube and Bore Solvent (OK PL & BS) -- order yours now.
That's a good deal! Can you ship OK PL&BS to Canada?
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I have a 20 gauge smoothbore I use for deer and turkey. My deer load is 75 grains of 3f goex. It shoots accurately and it is sighted in for about 65 yards. Most of my shots are between 30 and 60 yards. I haven't killed a deer with it yet. After this season I might up the charge a little after reading posts for heavier charges.
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Daryl, did I misread or did you mistype? I have a .62 smoothbore. I cast .600 balls and they weigh only around 330 (+ or -) grains when cast from pure lead.
I think he was referring to a couple of .16ga balls...
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Yes- RB's correct - most 16's throw close to an ounce of lead - generally 400gr. to 420gr. or so. An ounce, is actually .437.5gr.(7,000 divided by 16) In comparriosn, the 20 bore is a small bore.
2 x 330gr. .600" balls = 660gr. which is 1 1/2oz. That is the close equivalence in weight to a 76calibre round ball & quite a load for a 20 bore.
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Okay, I see where you're coming from. A 16ga would throw an awesome ball alright. For my use the 20/.62 is plenty and enjoyable. I did have a 12ga dbl percussion that would really "jump back". I sold it to get the .62 flint.
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Ah, just saw this thread was brought back to life.
Dan,
Good point about the stock design. Only reason I was considering the .62 is because that is what the original rifle is that I am having recreated. It is a heavy 1760-70s period rifle from SW Virginia. Debating if I should drop down to a .58 or not.
James
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That period gun should have enough drop and a wide butt. Drop at the heel (sloping comb) is what makes the gun (comb) rise up under recoil forces and smack you, rather than driving the shoulder down, lifting the face off the comb as an English Design will do. The older guns, like the Marshal's(I think) & Jaeger designs were pretter good.