AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: northmn on July 30, 2010, 06:26:01 PM
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Started playing with my 20 bore smooth rifle. The stocks is still somewhat in the rough, but I like to make sure things fit and function before final finsih. My ball mold is an old Dixie with the scissors handle where you cut off the sprue manually. The balls are also slightly oblong at .602X.605. thinking I should get a Lee mold as I doubt a smoothbore can really be accurate with filed down sprues and an oblong ball, even when I load the parting line the same way each time. Haven't benched it yet as it shot quite high and I worked the rear sight down to hit the paper. Browning the barrel now. No vent liner yet, but for some reason things got a little messy with broken off bits and instead of a .70 hole I ended up with a 5/64 or .78. It seems to work with that large of a hole but I wonder if it may not be a little large even for a 20 bore. The old Dixie catalog used to recommend a 3/32. Really thought I would try no liner in it, but it does seem a little large.
DP
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You'll just have to try it and decide for yourself. I wouldn't worry about the ball if it's as close as that to round. If you use enough powder, you'll find it accurate enough to 100 yds to kill deer or moose. I shoot 85 grains FFg as a standard load, and ring the gongs at 109 yards more often than not.
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Plus, even with a perfectly round ball...I assume there's a couple thousandth's distoration at ignition / set-back time anyway
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Well you haven't lived til you shoot that smoothie in the matches that allow no rear sight!~!
The careless use of a copper pick grew my touchole to a 5/64 (with a little shove a 3/32nd would have gone in) started shooting low and losing 2 f out of the vent. (bummer) Replaced the vent and chucked out the copper pick. I only pick her now when she demands it!! In any case I would go with the 5/64th with enough black stuff she should shoot just fine with good ignition also....Mine happens to be a 28 gauge.
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.602x.605 is as accurate as most every one of my rb mould - Lyman, Lee, RCBS or Tanner. Only my .311" Lee, .398" LYman (supposed to be .395") and the .400" DC Lyman cast round balls. The DC .400" mould only does that with one cavity - the other casts .395" x .400"- that one cavity will enlarge groups by 2 1/2 times at 50 yards, so the mould is a heavy single cavity for me.
Being out up to .003" in a .62 will probably make no difference in a rifle, let along in a smoothbore- in my opinion, that is.
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I have had a couple of smoothies that I used to shoot in matches that required no rear sight. People kept buying them from me and I started this one to have another. this time just for kicks I wanted to have a smooth rifle to see how well sights would work. Been ecperimenting with Daryls express sight. They seem to line up very quick. While the gun kicks it doesn't hurt so I can finish it off in its current configuration as to drop. I started with 90 gr. (according to the powder measure, not weighed of GOEX 2f) This will be mostly a hunting gun with possibilites of shot being used on small game. I was surprised that most molds you checked were also out of round. I never really checked taht much before? Old dog keeps learning. The touchhole does seem to leak any powder. It would be easy to drill out for a liner but I still wanted to check out whether one is all that needed for my own curiosity.
DP
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Well, maybe this will make you feel better...I had an all morning range trip to put the "final" tweaks on the sight settings for my smoothbore PRBs load and after it was all said and done it was a complete waste of gas, powder, patch, ball, and I ended up ruining a set of sights in the process...have to order/install a new set and start all over again.
:-[
I thought I needed to open the rear notch wider to get better visibility with the front sight...and in the course of doing so kept filing first one side then the other to try and keep the notch centered / balanced...and became so engrossed in the balancing part that I lost track of just how wide the notch was becoming until it was too late. And now...if I'm careful...I can push a lawnmower through the notch without hitting either side !!!!!!!
::)
(This is why I don't try to "build" a muzzleloader !!)
So, off to TOW's website I go...
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I am really getting attached to the express sight style. Have a modified version on my squirrel rifle and have filed it in on the smooothbore. No notch just a super large V. I really think that it will work good using shot even on occaisional flying targets. As for roundball use, they permit me to use open sights as the fine sights for targets just don't cut it anymore. I kept shooting high a couple of years ago because I could not see them in the field like I should.
DP
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Got the barrel browned and took it out again and roughed it in at about 25 yards so I can haul everything out to the bench and try it out properly. Ordered the Lee mold as it was just a PITA to cut the sprues using the Dixie mold. The Lee mold throws ball that are 602x604 max, with some 602x603. Probably will not matter but we will see. May mark the mold so that I have a reference point to load all ball the same like BPC shooters do. Rifles are more forgiving so that some of this is not needed as much. Want to test it out to 75 yards or so. Have to try some shot out of it also. Maybe some day I will get to finish up on the stock. One good thing about walnut is that if you do not stain it its easy to refinish.
DP
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When I take things seriously, I align the patch weave and mould line on the ball the same way, every time. I did just that for last summer's 200 yard match run by Candle Snuffer. When checking the sights, I'm sure the aignment helped with the 1 1/4" x 3 1/2", 6 shot group I managed off the bags at 200 yards.
I am not certain it will help much with a smoothbore, but then, you just never know. Generally speaking, everything you can do to improve consistancy in loading and shooting, helps.
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When I take things seriously, I align the patch weave and mould line on the ball the same way, every time. I did just that for last summer's 200 yard match run by Candle Snuffer. When checking the sights, I'm sure the aignment helped with the 1 1/4" x 3 1/2", 6 shot group I managed off the bags at 20 yards.
I am not certain it will help much with a smoothbore, but then, you just never know. Generally speaking, everything you can do to improve consistancy in loading and shooting, helps.
20 yds or 200 ??? You did mean with a rifle?
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yes - 200 and yes, with a rifle. I did mention I wasn't sure it would help with a smoothbore, but I do feel it certainly couldn't do any harm. The smoothbore should be good for 1" to 1 1/2" at 25 to 30 yards for 5 shots - maybe 35yards with 2 sights.
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I should probably start a separate thread for this, but since there are some notable smootbore brains here, I'm going to pose a question:
Is there any record of muzzleloading smoothbores for something like the "kicker" used by contemporary air soft shooters to increase accuracy and range? After all, they're shooting "round balls" down smooth bored barrels, so the parallels would seem natural.
I'm asking out of ignorance because I don't shoot air soft, and I barely rise to the level of duffer with black powder smooth bores. But I have a nephew who's very serious about air soft, and the kicker does amazing things for extending the accurate range in the guns he builds.
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Uh - what's a kicker?
Totaly outside the scope of my admittedly old text :D
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Uh - what's a kicker?
Totaly outside the scope of my admittedly old text :D
Boy, it's darned near beyond my understanding too, especially coming from an 18-year old computer whizz.
As I understand it, it's a little "bump" somewhere in the top or bottom of bore that causes the ball....er, pellet.... to have top spin or bottom spin coming out of the bore. Not sure (okay, can't remember) which it is. All I know is that when he shot without the kicker the ball "knuckleballed" all over the place as velocity dropped. You could watch it through the scope. With the kicker at work, the ball easily doubled or tripled it's range before the knuckleballing started.
I can't see how it could be done in a muzzleloader unless it was a dimple at the muzzle, but it sure set my lead ball thoughts on fire. If it worked, I could easily see it being an effective "cheat" for smoothbore matches.
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Interesting - I wondered if it had something to do with putting a definite spin on the ball. Now we know. You should be able to do that with a pure lead ball - all you'd need to do is to take a chance. It probably wouldn't shoot any worse - that's for sure.
My feelings on spin, is that if too much spin, would make the ball react like a climer baseball. It might remove the windage error though and that would be a bonus. The higher the velcity of the ball, perhaps the more spin would result. A paint ball is running 280fps - our musket balls are running 800fps to about 1,200 or 1,300fps. I have to wonder if the 'kicker' would either be too effective, or not effective enough with the higher speeds we're using.
I've watched slow moving round balls that take on a spin in the air (through binoculars) - divert exponentially with increased range. Normally, to increase the accurate range of a smoothbore - you have to drive the ball faster so it goes farther before it takes on a spin.
My double 12 bore, 1900 era ctg. gun would hold into 10" offhand, alternating rights and lefts, at 100 yards - but it took 190gr. 2f to do it - yeah it kicked. Then I found smokeless at the same speed, gave me the same regulation, with 1/3 the recoil. I was using my .684" ball of WW or pure with the sprue filed off and specialty wads to hold the ball centred. Pertenant to this thread, is that at 1,550fps that ball was quite accurate right to 125 yards and like a patched ball, was delivered with out any spin at all. Too, I was using a rib mounted scope for this testing. the faster i drove the balls, the longer accuracy range I had. Off the bags, it would hold onto around 5 1/2 to 6" with BP or select smokeless loads.
Balls without sprues should be more accurate art range, than balls with a sprue as there is less 'surface' irregularity to cause a spin to start. Of course, internal defects, like air pockets will also cause a spin to start - or grossly irregular flight that increases exponentially. It is demoralizing to see a load that shoots 1" at 25 yards for 5 shots, open up at 50 yards off a rest to where 5 shots doesn't produce 5 holes in an 8"x11" sheet of paper. The lack of a sprue is one reason I prefer Jeff Tanner moulds for large calibre smoothbores.
Heavier charges for increassed range is one reason why the US paper ctg. loads held so much powder- they wanted to achieve 1,700fps & thought they actually did, with the 165gr. serpentine powder, then 130gr. with the more powerful amalgamated powders of post 1820 or so. Their main problem with accuracy, was the grossly undersized balls they used - .64 cal to 1820 or so, then .65 cal balls. The issue muskets ran .69 to .70 cal. and the paper, while taking up some of the windage, didn't take it all up.
BrownBear - if you don't want to 'ding' your muzzle to make a 'kicker', send your barrel to me and I'll do it - to it - in the intersts of science, of course. ;D ;D
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I just finished shooting a few rounds with my smooth bore at 75 yards. It seemed to be fairly consistant in that when I filed down the rear sight it shot lower. I had a wind issue and also a little problem getting the express sight centered while filing. While I still ahve room the rear sight is getting a bit low. May try 100 grains of powder next if a little more zip would help. Problem is that with a larger 20 bore probably would need 110 to notice a difference. Tried two thickness of patching and did not really notice any difference as the one is still pretty tight. The person renting my hay land started raking so I quit. Was also getting fouling problems at the breech with flashes in the pan that I had no problem with earlier. Was swabing between shots to try to maintain something like a new bore for sight in which also added to the fouling I think. Likely will install a vent liner. If I put a dent in the barrel it will likely be done in frustration. They did experiment with choked bores about the turn of the century and found them to increase velocity, kind of like your kicker idea.
DP
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Good ol Daryl up there in the crystal clear air mentions using 'some' smokeless in a Muzzleloader (unless I'm affected by the grape this evening) Jeez Daryl I don't think we should give anyone the smallest suggestion to try smokeless in a black powder firearm. Say you didn't mean it. Were you fighting with Barbara? Were you jilted by the neighbor lady? Did the cutthroat trout refuse to strike your last time out, or the last three times you were out.? :D ??? ::)
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I have heard that nefarious competitors in smoothbore matches have sometimes "rifled" their smoothbores with abrasive, just enough to last 20-30 shots and not be detectable, and gotten good results. Basically use a rifling bench but the head is just a jag with rough abrasive cloth glued on.
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I have heard that nefarious competitors in smoothbore matches have sometimes "rifled" their smoothbores with abrasive, just enough to last 20-30 shots and not be detectable, and gotten good results. Basically use a rifling bench but the head is just a jag with rough abrasive cloth glued on.
Jeez Rich don't give anyone ideas... ;D I happened to be at a shoot yrs ago when another 'shooter' dryballed his Trade gun! He pulled the ball and laid it on the loading bench. I grabbed it and saw the deep lands and grooves on the ball and still have it here in a drawer. That shooter and I have an 'understanding' ever since that day. He and I are the only ones that "know' his trade gun was not smooth.
I haven't seen him shoot that piece in the matches since that long ago day ;)
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Roger; there's a certain fellow here in west central ohio who pulled that same stunt. We finally figured out why he's using a 530rb in his (24ga) Tulle! He started shooting at a different club.
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Way back when, when my interst developed into smoothbores and NWTGs started showing up (at that time they were quite a fad, kind of like everyone had to have a Hawken) I set up two challenges for the "trade gun match" One was a clay pidgeon match made easier for flintlocks and the other gongs where the score was either a hit or miss. The rifled barrels may have been somewhat handicapped then. I have always had this idiotic notion that a smoothbore should be able to use shot as well as roundball. Was pretty popular for a bit but the buckskinners started complaining that it was too much shooting.
DP
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You're right Roger - I should have made it more clear that my old double 12 - was a ctg. gun. I most certainly DO NOT condone nor suggest using smokeless in a muzzleloader. Post altered.
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They have some interesting pictures of whats left of a hand from smokeless on the Cast Boolit site. Maybe here too, I can't remember. Youre ideas about heavier loads are taken into consideration, but a 20 bore using a fowler barrel instead of a true rifle barrel kind of starts hurting over about 100 grains.
DP
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You're right Roger - I should have made it more clear that my old double 12 - was a ctg. gun. I most certainly DO NOT condone nor suggest using smokeless in a muzzleloader. Post altered.
Nuf said ;D
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That kicker/dimple idea is very interesting to ponder but I think I'll stick with a cylinder bore.
Learned something new......Lynn
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I know little about ballistics {end disclaimer }. What about a dimple in the ball itself? That's why they are there in golf balls. I'm not suggesting putting 336 dimples in (novel idea for a mold and I claim creative rights over it) but a few in an arc across the face of the ball might put a somewhat controlled spin on the ball. Then I would be concerned that any behavior would be reproducible.
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Chuck and I had this old Belgian ML 10 gauge with a dent in the left barrel. We tried it to see if it was more accurate that way but the blast when the segment of the barrel containing the dent blew out made him flinch and we never found where the ball hit. Of course, once the dent was gone, we could not reproduce the shot. (Not to mention the hole in the barrel which made even us hesitate to shoot that side again.) He did continue to shoot the right barrel for several years thereafter, untill one day I got tired of looking at it and sawed both barrels off below the hole. It never was much use after that, but it really looked scarey. ;D
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Some smoothbore shooters roll their balls...musket balls between wood rasps to dimple them. The rasps raise a burr around the dimple that increases dia of the ball, in addition to the dimples carrying more lube. Don't remember if those dimpled balls are shot bare or with a patch.
Never shot dimpled balls, so I can' comment on their effectiveness.
Just kinda thinkin'...typn' out loud, so to speak...type.
God bless
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Well you haven't lived til you shoot that smoothie in the matches that allow no rear sight!~!
The careless use of a copper pick grew my touchole to a 5/64 (with a little shove a 3/32nd would have gone in) started shooting low and losing 2 f out of the vent. (bummer) Replaced the vent and chucked out the copper pick. I only pick her now when she demands it!! In any case I would go with the 5/64th with enough black stuff she should shoot just fine with good ignition also....Mine happens to be a 28 gauge.
Unless the copper was very hard its not going the wear a vent unless its a liner with a thin wall and its deformed by pressure.
I just spent HOURS lapping a barrel with 220-280-400 grit and its take a lot of work to change a piece of steel much I may have taken out a .001 or so. It sure is shiny now though ;D
If you care to experiment take a piece of copper and rub it on a piece of barrel steel with all the pressure you can stand for 2-3 hours and see how much wear you produce.
GAS CUTTING is another matter and this WILL eat out plain vents and even stainless to some extent.
Dan
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As I understand it, it's a little "bump" somewhere in the top or bottom of bore that causes the ball....er, pellet.... to have top spin or bottom spin coming out of the bore. Not sure (okay, can't remember) which it is. All I know is that when he shot without the kicker the ball "knuckleballed" all over the place as velocity dropped. You could watch it through the scope. With the kicker at work, the ball easily doubled or tripled it's range before the knuckleballing started.
I can't see how it could be done in a muzzleloader unless it was a dimple at the muzzle, but it sure set my lead ball thoughts on fire. If it worked, I could easily see it being an effective "cheat" for smoothbore matches.
I recall writings by a late-18th or early-19th century ballistician concerning accuracy in firearms, among other things. He discussed the ball in a smoothbore bouncing randomly down the bore, acquiring a different spin at each bounce, with the final spin determining which way the ball deviated. He mentioned that some gumakers would give the muzzle of a "gun" intended for ball a slight downward bend to ensure that the ball would consistently pick up what we would call backspin. The (more) consistent spin notably improved accuracy, and the backspin produced a flatter trajectory. This was different from bending the barrel (further back) to regulate the point of impact with both ball and shot, and I suspect that the muzzle bend did rather bad things to to a shot load.
As is usually the case nowadays, I can no longer either recall or locate the reference.
Regards,
Joel
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There were a lot of theories that may have sounded reaosnable back then. If loaded properly a smoothbore does not have a ball bounding all over the place going down the muzzle. The old "pumpkin ball" used in shot shells did, but you can now get pretty good accuracy with a modern shell by using a roundball that fits tightly in a shotcup and hence tightly patched. The same for a tightly patched flintlock smoothbore. Rifling puts the center of gravity or the weight if you will into the center axis of the ball such that minor imperfections are eliminated to some degree. A smoothbore is affected by both the imperfections of weight distribution such as minute airposckets etc as well as surface imperfections. It may not ahve helped but I did load the weapon with the parting line from the mold in the same direction. I also got considerably more deviation horizontally than vertically. This was consistant in all my shooting.
DP
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Never shot dimpled balls, so I can' comment on their effectiveness.
Several years ago I bought 5 boxes of Speer .530's at a steal on EBay and the seller simply set them inside a box about the size of a shoebox, no packing material, etc.
By the time they got to me all the plastic boxes had been broken apart...500 loose balls had been banging into each other for a few hundred miles and they looked like miniature golf balls...they all shot perfectly to the 50 yards I practice at.
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The dimpled ball would have an increased surface that may slow them down quicker. A few sources have stated taht steel worked better than expected for shot as it had a "slicker" surface than lead.
DP
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I think the whole idea of dimples on a golf ball is that it gives better control and lift, longer distance, etc
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Dimpled golf balls presumably have less aerodynamic drag, hence keep their velocity better. At least that is my understanding of the comment by Canute, in the July 3009 topic 'Smoothbore shooters might try sanding their balls for better accuracy' I am inclined to believe Canute.
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Considering that everything else which is created to be aerodynamic is higly polished, and the comments I read on steel shot, I am not inclined to believe Canute. Dimples on golf balls may make them fly more straight or some other obscure purpose, but a rough surfaced bullet will not fly faster and farther than a polished one. Ever see dimple on the surface of a jet fighter ???
DP
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Google "golf ball dimples" to get the answer. The site aerospaceweb.org has a detailed engineering discussion, one I might have understood about the time JFK was cavorting in the white house. It also explains why aircraft have no dimples, although newer military planes do have little vanes on the wings to do the same thing.
This numbingly detailed engineering explanation said dimples make the ball fly farther, for a given initial blow. The dimples reduce drag. Smooth vs dimpled ain't that simple.
The other thing that reduces drag on a golf ball, any round ball, is higher initial velocity. Since golfers are human & can only hit so hard, that is not an option.
But I am sure you have read in this forum that heavier powder charges, i.e. higher velocity, helps the accurate range.
And, finally, take the trouble to look over that old topic Smoothbore shooters might try sanding their balls for better accuracy I found it today, it was July 24, 2009. As of this morning that was page 28. Along with golf ball stuff, it discusses smoothbore musket shooters having consistently better scores (winning matches) when they rough up their balls. Either 80 grit sandpaper, or rolling over a rasp.
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I do not want to rewrite what I wrote inDimpled Roundballs after visiting 4 sites on golf ball aerodynamics, but essentially golf balls actions depend a lot on the spin they get from the hit. A non-spinning sphere would not have the same actions. TOF made a good point about incresing diameter and also sometimes better shot will do something or a top shot will do something which gets everyone all excited. After reading the articles on golf balls I think there may be something to it, but again, does a smoothbore impart spin to a ball ??? If so then the golf ball effect works, if not then you have as they stated increased friction. Golf balls act like wings when spinning and get increased lift from the greater turbulence. We also shoot at higher velocities than a hit ball which like ballistic coefficients may change things ??? Higher initial velocity does not reduce drag, it actually increases it, look at the Lyman catalog and understand that ball slow down quicker at higher velocities. The main advantage of higher velocity is that the time of flight is reduced which leaves gravity less time to work on a ball. The latest and greatest on golf balls is to place in hexagonal dimples. Also there was mention of the "Happy Nonhooker" which became outlawed for tournaments which was only dimpled alon a radius and left smooth on the sides. At this time I get excellent results in my smooth rifle by loading the ball the same with the parting line up toward the sights and sorting the ball.
DP
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And, finally, take the trouble to look over that old topic. Along with golf ball stuff, it discusses smoothbore musket shooters having consistently better scores (winning matches) when they rough up their balls. Either 80 grit sandpaper, or rolling over a rasp.
Rolling your balls over a rasp to obtain better accuracy sounds pretty drastic.....
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I do not want to repeat what I wrote in "Dimpling roundballs" but without the spin imparted to a golg ball when hit, dimpling roundballs is so much BS.
DP
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Consider we are talking about super sonic speeds - and perhaps demands and requirements that are similar to the reason jet's have smooth surfaces. Yes- they also have small vanes to smooth the flow of air - I doubt that is even remotely similar to dimples or rasp marks.
Also - perhaps sub sonic speeds benefit from this roughness as-does a golf ball. Note also, many people shoot weak squib-type loads which are very slow indeed and at range could benefit from any help at all in accuracy.
At this time, the best accuracy I have achieved from a smoothbore with round balls, has been when those balls are travelling 1,500 fps or faster. This is considerably faster than the speed of sound - making sub-sonic speed-fixes non-relevent. All round balls I've shot from smoothbores have had no spin until they left the muzzle. I have watched slow moving round balls (small, 65gr.2F powder charge from a 20 bore) vere off like a hooked or sliced gold ball - which had taken on a spin inconsistant with accuracy.
If there are any regularites on the ball, I believe they had better be consistant and evenly spaced so as to not induce a spin that causes exponentially diverting flight, as observed when balls take on a curving or hooking-type spin. A sprue sticking up above the surface, or hole from the sprue tearing out will not promote accuracy, I am sure. This is why I think the Tanner-type moulds or rolled balls have the potential for better accuracy than balls which have a residual sprue.
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I would like to see the whole technique of loading where they get better scores with a dimpled RB. Also the loads. After reading the mechanics of golf ball flight, one can expect ta ht a curve ball is the result of turbulence acting on an uneven surface. While we try to load sprue up, we likely rarely get it perfectly centered. That might be a cause of turbulence that could cause a hook. I will return to the "Happy nonhooker" golf ball. they found that with smooth sides they got less slice or hook. That would be due to the thing taking on more of a Frisbee spin than a negative forward spin as in a Skill saw blade. On another web site an individual discussing cast bullet defects got the same little lecture on arrow flight I gave on another thread on this site. He thought that an arrow would go crazy if you lost a feather. Instead, as long as they spin they tend to shoot pretty accurate, even though unbalanced. Many inaccuracies in cast bullets are due to base deformties s in bad gas checks. Some claim in a round ball smashing up the nose with a too tight patch ball combo can be counterproductive. I hold with a smoothbore that does not spin, any deformity can cause problems down range as can any internal casting fault. A rifle is can surprise you as how accurate it is with a deformed ball because the center of gravity still spins evenly around the center axis more or less canceling these effects. In a smooth bore, the center axis and the center of gravity need to be the same. In a perfect sphere, I wonder if spinning would matter as the turbulence should equal out. Look at a the old Lyman BP Handbook and the effects of turbulence on roundball.
How do you get a perfect roundball ???
DP
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Frankly, I don't worry about any of this. It;s a smoothbore, after all, and I can get hunting type accuracy without too much trouble. If I can keep most in 6 in at 50 Yds I take it hunting. If I really need more accuracy, I take my rifle. 90 % of all deer here are taken inside 50 yds anyway. Most I've shot were 10 to 25 yds. When shooting off hand, most of the guys I know can't hold better than 3 to 4 inches at 50 yds anyway; and that's with a rifle with sights. Unless you put sights on the smoothbore and shoot from a rest, you've got a lot more variables working against you than an "undimpled" ball. As long as the sprue is pointing up, more or less, I don't worry about it either. Frankly, IMO, most would be better off shooting more, and armchair thinking less ;D
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;D
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Frankly, I don't worry about any of this. It;s a smoothbore, after all, and I can get hunting type accuracy without too much trouble. If I can keep most in 6 in at 50 Yds I take it hunting. If I really need more accuracy, I take my rifle. 90 % of all deer here are taken inside 50 yds anyway. Most I've shot were 10 to 25 yds. When shooting off hand, most of the guys I know can't hold better than 3 to 4 inches at 50 yds anyway; and that's with a rifle with sights. Unless you put sights on the smoothbore and shoot from a rest, you've got a lot more variables working against you than an "undimpled" ball. As long as the sprue is pointing up, more or less, I don't worry about it either. Frankly, IMO, most would be better off shooting more, and armchair thinking less ;D
Mine is a smooth rifle. A longrifle styled firearm with longrifle hardware and a smooth bore. It has sights just like I would put on a longrifle. Its not a fowler in that it does not balance like a shotgun, but it will work with shot and can be used very unsporting like for ground swating. Also make a fair squirrel gun in populated areas during the off season. So far I am doing better than 6" at 75 yards and am interested in seeing its practical range. Just have not had time to go to the range. I also put a vent insert in it as I had a drill bit break off in the original non vented touchhole. Even though I got the bit removed i was getting some interesting performance with it.
DP