AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Rich Jakowski on September 28, 2008, 11:28:38 PM
-
In assembling a set of 1803 HF lock castings I got to wondering where the hammer (cock) is supposed to come to rest after striking the frizzen. Is it between the rear of the tumbler and the bridle? Or, is it where the flat portion on the inner side of the hammer meets the bolster on the top of the lock plate?
Does this vary on different lock designs and which is the most common?
Seems like a lot of stress would occur in either place over time if the parts involved were not properly hardened.
-
Idealy both of these surfaces should come into contact at the same time, each sharing a portion of the stress. You find a lot of old antique locks with the top of the bolster and the hammer stop distorted by the hammer taking all the load.
-
Also, the flint striking the frizzen should really absorb most of the shock and load. Many kids get hold of a flinter, and break the cock off by firing without a flint in place, or worse, with the frizzen open.
Lucky has it right. The cock shoulder on the plate and the tumbler on the bridle should both contact at the same time.
-
Bullcrap. Nothing is that fine tuned. The bulk of the hammer and the lockplate are far stronger than any internal part. What you really want is that the hammer, after it's force being well dissipated, hits inboard of the edge of the lockplate. Simply file your hammer stop so you don't batter the edge of the lockplate but inboard of the edge. Simple. Perfect. Easy. Things fail here because many builders, now and then, didn't even bother with the simple, let alone trying to have all parts hit at the same time exactly. Acer, I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.
-
[ I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.
[/quote]
Disappointed in the Eagles, but at least the Chargers won, which I don't really care about.
-
After two Manhattens, opinions are better, women are prettier and by God you can sing no matter what everyone else tells you. Cheers Bill! Now I know how you get those wonderful flowing lines in your carving. Got a good recipe for those Manhattans?
-
Bullcrap. Nothing is that fine tuned. The bulk of the hammer and the lockplate are far stronger than any internal part. What you really want is that the hammer, after it's force being well dissipated, hits inboard of the edge of the lockplate. Simply file your hammer stop so you don't batter the edge of the lockplate but inboard of the edge. Simple. Perfect. Easy. Things fail here because many builders, now and then, didn't even bother with the simple, let alone trying to have all parts hit at the same time exactly. Acer, I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.
What about the ones that have the stop on the fence?
Many late English locks, those with "French" cocks especially, are built this way.
I set the Manton lock I assembled to stop on the fence and at the bridle. This way I am less likely to batter a groove in the fence.
Dan
-
Dan, I agree with these late locks. But the locks we almost always use, like a Siler, are a different story. Clearly the hammer hitting the plate inboard is better than pounding the internals even a little bit. After many years there's nothing but a little dent on the top of the plate.
Ron, 3 parts Canadian whiskey, 1 part M&R Vermouth. On the rocks. Slightest dash of cherry juice. Pour into shaker. Shake 30 seconds. Shaking makes a big difference. Pour back in glass.
Only girls and Southerners use bourban.
-
Only girls and Southerners use Bourbon.
Bill,
Glad to here that about us Southerners. Down here we hear from childhood that only Northerners ruin perfectly good bourbon by adding ... well, anything but ice! ;)
Gary
-
Weren't some of the Harpers Ferry locks made as Dan described - with no ledge on the back of the cock?
An old Irish gentleman once told me that "the only thing you drink with good whiskey is more of it ..." ;)
Best regards
Guy
-
Wait just a minute Bill! Who you callin a girl or a southerner? Days ending in 'Y' end in Makers Mark her in Mt. Gretna. I do agree about the locks.
-
I love really good questions; and this is one of the best. I will answer according to my hands-on research of original locks; and wait in just a minute to explain todays modern made locks. First, keep in mind that flintlocks were in an ever-evolving state of improvement; and based on the question of time period gets the appropriate fix. The first flintlocks (poor suckers) were technological experiments and most early Dutch and Liege locks didn't even have a bridle over the tumbler. (Period in 1650 to 1685 or so.) When they first began using a bridle, I believe the process was still a learning process because the early original locks I own today show only a hammer ledge on the back of the hammer itself and no bridle stop. Somewhere in the very early 1700's lockmakers began using a variety of methods to control and spread the force of the hammer. Original drawings in a military museum in Europe show the intent that the hammer should engage the plate a fraction prior to the tumbler stop coming to the bridle stop. This, I believe since it makes sense, means the plate being the larger bearing surface absorbs first the settling of the hammer, and the bridle stop secondary. Once the bridle begins to accept the strike of the hammers force is the beginning of the end of the locks internals. Notice that later English locks ultimately began using two upper screws in the bridle, as well as "stand-offs" on the bridle to keep the tumbler in perfect 90 degree rotation. Cool stuff. I bought a matched left and right pair of John Manton flintlocks and these are the most perfect pieces of work I have had. Todays locks recieve (for the most part) no additional "tweeks" to the masters to make them better. Too costly to remake the master and/or the molds for the ultimate improvements. So, we get what we get. Did you know that many originals don't have any "cut" in the panel where the hammer comes to rest? Thats because many of the original masters "faded" the panel top inward so that the hammer stop cleared the wood. When I studied original locks on original rifles and pistols, I found that this ledge never exceeded the width of the decorative bevel. So when you inlet any lock with any type of bevel on its edge, it inlets to the base of this bevel, and leaves enough available edge for the hammer to sit on!
Susie
-
I knew I'd get a response with the whiskey thing. In central PA, especially in the coal regions, few people drink Bourbon. I was a bartender in school for a few years.Wise men, like myself, drink Windsor in their Manhattans cause it's good and not expensive. VO is a treat. Crown Royal is on the rocks or straight. Crown Royal in a Manhattan is disrespectfull. It's regional and interesting what people , in general, drink.
Susanne is dead on.
-
I knew I'd get a response with the whiskey thing. In central PA, especially in the coal regions, few people drink Bourbon. I was a bartender in school for a few years.Wise men, like myself, drink Windsor in their Manhattans cause it's good and not expensive. VO is a treat. Crown Royal is on the rocks or straight. Crown Royal in a Manhattan is disrespectfull. It's regional and interesting what people , in general, drink.
Susanne is dead on.
I bow to the experts on locks, but on WHISKEY(!) I do have educated opinions! Its all good. I was raised mainly in PA by southern born parents and now live back in the south. My Dad drank Manhattans when he could [being an FBI Agent in Hoovers old days he could never have more than one drink when 'off duty' because he was always getting called back on duty]. In the anthracite coal regions of PA where I grew up, folks were beer drinkers [and we had great local breweries like Mt Carbon Bavarian, no longer with the living]. But when they drank whiskey it was based largely on nationality--the south in those days was pretty much scots-irish or african-american, but PA was a conglomerate of nations--the Irish drank Rye, the English & Scots drank Scotch, etc. Alot of folks drank Canadian whiskey. But you Yankees are missing out on some great mellow corn whiskey made in Tenn and Kentucky! Someone mentioned Makers Mark--a true Bourbon--great stuff! Down here we mainly drink it straight or maybe with a cube of ice in the summer. When we blend whiskey into a highball or coctail, THEN we use that poor Yankee whiskey! :D
-
Susanne, excellent post! About the whiskey? I'm no fun, never cared for the stuff.
-
Not sure how the subject of whiskey got bundled into this thread, but I sure appreciate Suzanne's detailed and scholarly response to my query. Now that I think about it, it does seem like the force of the tumbler hitting the bridle would tear things up pretty quick.
Hey Suzanne, I'd sure love to see some photos of those John Manton locks if you can put them up.
Don't get me wrong guys, I like my booze too, though more of a gin man myself - Beefeater, dry vermouth and a couple of nice fat sour onions (aka: a gimlet. BTW: isnt' that also the name of the tool that looks something like an ice pick and is used to clear the touch hole when fireing a cannon?)
-
Thanks for all that appreciation stuff! Since I'm new here to the forum, its kind of cool to be noticed! My monthly weekend school here covers all this kind of stuff in a hands-on "real" school! As soon as someone teaches me how to upload photos I'll be glad to share pics on my Mantons. My ultimate goal is to reproduce them (and some others). Anything I can help with, just let me know!
Susie
-
Rich, just fun getting something going.
-
Here's a new one for you. On some English and French locks the throat of the hammer came to rest on the pan fence. Manton had some like that and so did boutet.
-
Here's a new one for you. On some English and French locks the throat of the hammer came to rest on the pan fence. Manton had some like that and so did boutet.
Dan mentioned this in reply #6
-
I would love to see a picture of one of these French or English locks up close if anyone has one. I was not aware that Manton did this (on the long list of things im not aware of) and im very interested in seeing one.
On whiskey.....My family all still lives up in the coal reigons here in pa.Yatesville,Girardville,Mahanoy City. My Polish relatives are all Seagrams7 drinkers or what ever beer you put in front of them. The Irish ( Obrians, Carrols, McCoys and Sheas) are all Bourban drinkers and none too fussy about their beer either. I too like Gin (ALOT) but like girls and white shoes....only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
-
Sorry Dan.
I didn't see that in your post.
-
I would love to see a picture of one of these French or English locks up close if anyone has one. I was not aware that Manton did this (on the long list of things im not aware of) and im very interested in seeing one.
On whiskey.....My family all still lives up in the coal reigons here in pa.Yatesville,Girardville,Mahanoy City. My Polish relatives are all Seagrams7 drinkers or what ever beer you put in front of them. The Irish ( Obrians, Carrols, McCoys and Sheas) are all Bourban drinkers and none too fussy about their beer either. I too like Gin (ALOT) but like girls and white shoes....only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
This is the lock built from TRS castings that is on my 16 bore.
you can see the place designed into the cock to strike the fence in one photo.
This rifle has fired about 400- 500 rounds when the pic was taken. It stops on the fence and on the bridle.
Yes I know the vent is not in the center of the pan. Do do occurs. I built the breech complete then installed the barrel and lock in the stock.
The rifle needs to be finished but its my hunting rifle. Should have blued the barrel this summer when I did a couple of others. It was too white and shiny last year so I smeared some plumb brown on it.
Dan
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2F16borelock.jpg&hash=908530ebf59490b913200442e71480ccf744bbf7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2F16borelock2.jpg&hash=0c031c2b03b90efc39a30fe2920a958a0982dd29)
-
Thats beautiful!!!! Thank you for posting!
-
Remember that this is not a lock that is available to the average builder, but the highpoint of sofistication of the flintlock period. AGAIN, for the locks we generally use, hit the plate inboard of the edge first. The internal stop soon thereafter.
Scott, everyone has their individual tastes. But as a bartender for a number of years in Shamokin which is the same as where you're from,, rye whiskey like Seagrams or Canadian ,which is just good rye whiskey, outperforms boubon , corn, 30 to one and light liquors 3 to 1. Then again you have the Shipman dry martini. Many tips. Shake your gin on ice. Place dry Vermouth in the cocktail glass, swirl, and throw it in the sink. It merely "wets" the glass. Then pore in the cold gin. Add olive. The greater the display of throwing out the vermouth, the greater the tip.
-
Its so refreshing to talk to people with common interests!!!! I wish you lived next door Bill!
-
Bill, I can tell when you are sloshing about the keyboard.
-
Bill, your Manton is beautiful. This is a Joseph Manton right? Does'nt the tumbler come to rest internally on the bridle stop? This is one lock I have not had the opportunity to examine. My flintlocks are very early John (the elder brother) Mantons from a double gun in private collection which was destroyed. (Wish I had all the pieces and parts).
Susie
-
Thanks for all that appreciation stuff! Since I'm new here to the forum, its kind of cool to be noticed! My monthly weekend school here covers all this kind of stuff in a hands-on "real" school! As soon as someone teaches me how to upload photos I'll be glad to share pics on my Mantons. My ultimate goal is to reproduce them (and some others). Anything I can help with, just let me know!
Susie
Anyone who has an interest in these old guns is welcome, but someone who illustrates your knowledge and dedication to the hobby is especially welcome. And while I'm waaaayyy too far away to attend your monthly weekend school, I certainly would like to see photos of those Manton locks.
Too bad no one produces a good affordable Manton. Hint, hint. ;)
Thanks,
J.D.
-
Hah! Thats good to know! And thanks! I have been getting alot of interest in my developing my early Manton locks as well as a left and right set of Nock locks from an original side-by-side flint shotgun I want to copy. Seems to be a lot of interest in these smaller locks too. The Mantons I have are in spectacular condition. I'll put them up on the site here when I get educated about this modern computer stuff. Those Joseph Manton locks (I'm pretty sure the one shown above is Joe) are interesting, but I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would. My John Mantons have gold lined pans and soled frizzens. Beautiful locks.
Susie
-
I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would.
Susie
Take a good look at the first photo of Dan's lock. There is barely a mark on the underside of the hammer. The fence shows no mushrooming in the views we have. This is after 400 to 500 shots.
Dan, what I want to know is this: is the lock case hardened? If it is hardened,that could certainly make a difference in the durability of the hammer and fence contact points. I am going to guess that it would depend on how deep the case is. If the case was deep, and the lock hardened and tempered, I would think that you could fire ten thousand rounds without much marring at all. If it is a thin case, then it would not help prevent impact damage very much.
-
Perhaps Dan could send another picture showing the cock at rest on the pan fence in full forward position.
Hey Susanne - when do you think you might start production of those Manton locks? Are you planning to offer these as assembled locks or casting sets? I for one would be very interested, especially in casting sets. Sounds like a big undertaking. I don't know much about the high definition cast steel process, but have an impression it requires lots of very specialized (read: very expensive) equipment.
-
I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would.
Susie
Take a good look at the first photo of Dan's lock. There is barely a mark on the underside of the hammer. The fence shows no mushrooming in the views we have. This is after 400 to 500 shots.
Dan, what I want to know is this: is the lock case hardened? If it is hardened,that could certainly make a difference in the durability of the hammer and fence contact points. I am going to guess that it would depend on how deep the case is. If the case was deep, and the lock hardened and tempered, I would think that you could fire ten thousand rounds without much marring at all. If it is a thin case, then it would not help prevent impact damage very much.
Lockplate is not hardened except just at the tumbler hole. TRS states they are 4140 and it WILL through harden if heated too hot. Thus I Kasenited the tumbler hole only at low red heat.
The cock is as cast, again its 4140 don't need to break it. Its MADE as shown in previous posts or at least the casting came that way. IIRC there was a slight dipple in the fence as cast but I cleaned it up. Had I known people were going into this at this level of detail I would have take pics then. The original used as a pattern was used since it has corrosion cast in. I made a tumbler for this lock and carefully fitted things so neither the fence or the bridle does all the stopping. The fence does not take a lot of the load but it will *just about* shear through a piece of writing paper placed on the fence if the cock is pulled back short of 1/2 cock and dropped. I think I fitted it with "magic marker dykem and it will remove the color so there is contact. The fence has a mark where the cock rests but nothing more. The tumbler and bridle are mild steel case hardened.
If those interested will go to the site detailing assembly of a Manton V -pan lock you will see there is a slight dent in the fence from stopping the cock. It is noticeable in several pictures. The dimple on my lock was not that wide.
This is a set of castings from TRS as well.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FFrenchCock.jpg&hash=40f45f7f0bcb21a930f205a9f03e80bffefd581f)
Another thing to remember is that Manton probably BOUGHT their locks from lock filers. I doubt that they were made in house though it is possible.
Dan
-
For those like myself that couldn't see the contact between the cock and fence I lighten up the picture, nice lock.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccountry.net%2F%7Ebuckaroo_ranch%2FFrenchCock&hash=0dcdf9032974de4afd194bcee9bea2a4717d48ad)
-
Hah! Thats good to know! And thanks! I have been getting alot of interest in my developing my early Manton locks as well as a left and right set of Nock locks from an original side-by-side flint shotgun I want to copy. Seems to be a lot of interest in these smaller locks too. The Mantons I have are in spectacular condition. I'll put them up on the site here when I get educated about this modern computer stuff. Those Joseph Manton locks (I'm pretty sure the one shown above is Joe) are interesting, but I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would. My John Mantons have gold lined pans and soled frizzens. Beautiful locks.
Susie
Hi Susie
One of my primary gripes is the lack of really good, easily available castings for locks like the Mantons and other high grade English locks. Some of the later type locks on the market now are near misses. I get the feeling they are selected for reproduction by people who do not make rifles or have no eye for aesthetic, elegant locks.
If you do cast them have them cast in something like 8620, the cocks and plates at least, this way they can be case hardened with less fear than if made of 4140 or other high carbon steel.
TRS has some wonderful designs, but trying to contact them is often like shouting down a well. Took well over a year to get all the parts for the lock pictured in a previous post. Then I ended up making a mainspring and tumbler because the castings were bad. Had to weld a up a large hole at a gate on the plate. But I LOVE the lock.
We really need a 1810-1820s type import flintlock that looks like this lock as well. Both in 5"- 5 1/4" and another about 4 1/2".
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FDKingHawkenlock.jpg&hash=322ae90e34378619352669b535c27c62577fa91c)
Not everyone is making 1750-1780 American rifles exclusively and there is a glut of locks for this purpose on the market right now.
I hope you can get your Mantons reproduced.
Sorry for the rant.
Dan
-
Wow... we really started something didn't we! Here is some stuff you probably didn't know (and I'm almost hesitant to share cause some will roll their eyes at me for lettin cats out of the bag) but here goes: Original locks were always hardened because of the steel (which was not steel-it was iron) and dead soft and as easy to work as soft brass! I know cause I got to work with some real original pieces that were "in process" rejects. Part of my research. ANyway, in the event you ever got to "tink" an original lock plate, you can hear the difference from a heat treated plate today. They don't sound the same and you will never get there. They used salt water to do their heat treat! But the iron is the key to the difference. The color you get is unique as well; not what you get now when you heat treat todays steel. Now.... I actually heat treat my lock plates because I know what is used in mine. 8620 is wonderful for the plate because it is tough, durable and will take the deep heat treat. And it works exceptionally well. I did a lot of re-work and re-architecture on my large Siler in my Beck rifle I compete with, and right now its on its 147th strike on the same flint (does include one time lightly knapped edge). The lock plate is slippery to the tumblers bearing surface and I relieved all parts so none drag on any part of the plates surface except where bearing. Combined with the change to the hammers neck architecture as it engages the frizzen, my ignition is almost instant. Its going off before the hammer is at rest. But the heat treated polished plate is wonderful and cleans up so well. I did the pan too and it really cleans up easy. For the record, the plate inside and out is highly mirror polished prior to the heat treat.
As for the Mantons and other locks I have planned, it takes tremendous time to do them. And Jims estimate on $15K per lock is pretty close! But I have no intention of putting them out there until the lock performs as good as the original. That guarantees having to tweek the masters and re-make the molds a time or two or three. All this is why I put the shop up for sale so I can get the needed time to do these. I'm putting the time in on learning what makes these babies tick. Now I just need the time to do them. Oh yeah, and the 4140 won't work good. Not enough carbon to even get you started. You would have to carbonize it. Whether by Kasenite or the old way with bone meal over fire.By the way, I just hired a new guy in the shop to help us work faster, so maybe I can get onto my projects faster. Say prayers! I need them! And remember all us vendors. We are struggling with this economic thing right now. Every little order adds up and would help us through it. God bless!
Susie
-
4140 steel is a chrome-molly steel, with .4% of carbon. That .4% carbon content will allow the steel to harden somewhat. Not much, but somewhat. The Chrome content combined with the mild carbon content will allow this alloy to harden more, and more deeply than, say, 1040 plain carbon steel.
I recently bought some raw cast parts from Jerry DeVaudril that were made of 4140 steel. Jerry referred me to Bob Roller for heat treating advice.
MR. Roller hardens frizzens cast of 4140 steel by quenching in 5w-30 oil, but does not temper the face of the frizzens.
Roller locks are well known for their quality, so he must know what he is doing.
8620, on the other hand, is a great steel for case hardening, but has a reputation for warpage. Either steel could be used for lockplates, with the 4140 being more durable, but 8620 being easier to work with when it comes to machining and color case hardening.
Just kinda thinkn'....typin' out loud, so to speak...type.
J.D.
-
Perhaps Dan could send another picture showing the cock at rest on the pan fence in full forward position.
Hey Susanne - when do you think you might start production of those Manton locks? Are you planning to offer these as assembled locks or casting sets? I for one would be very interested, especially in casting sets. Sounds like a big undertaking. I don't know much about the high definition cast steel process, but have an impression it requires lots of very specialized (read: very expensive) equipment.
Yup! It requires bookoos patience and lots of mold work. I have to make masters of the original parts so that control of shrink rates can be maintained. Lots of outfits copy original locks but fail to address the shrink rates and just leave the problems to the unsuspecting builder. I have already begun the work, but I have no idea how long its going to take. I want them to be right! They will be fully assembled and as good as I can make them! I'll just have to look at them being made available as kits. I don't know if I want to do that or not. Jim calls that quality control! And I think he is right on that.
-
I wasn't real sure on the 4140 and will have to agree on carbon content because of the "40" in the description. It may well be I didn't do something right, but I can tell you this, the 8620 has caused me no warp problem so far. Its tough and the warp you speak of probably came from a series of problems like the thickness of the metal and the entry into the oil, type of oil used and temperature of the oil to control cooling shock. I take a lot of pains to heat treat right so thats why I probably have few problems with the 8620. May have lucked out and hit it right. Temperatures on all aspects can change the whole results in any metal. I'll have to check with Jim on his steel in the plates to see what it is. I could actually have it backwards.
Susie
-
Susie, you are correct. We do use 8620 for plates, pans, and cocks/hammers. Bud Siler used 4140 when he was making those parts, but he allowed his foundry to use a variety of metals as long as it was close to 4140. When I bought the company and switched from the old foundry Bud has always used to the one I was then using, my foundry prefered to use 8620 for those parts, and, because 8620 will case harden better than 4140, I agreed that 8620 was a better choice.
-
Yup! Thats just what I thought. The 4140 is still hardenable, but the large Siler I built up and modifed (quite a lot) is completely hardened and it is one lightening fast slick lock for a Germanic style. I just won our latest Arkansas 8 month long Aggregate with it on my Beck rifle this last weekend. This lock now has two championships on it. Did something right, cause I am on my 147th shot on the same flint with one light knapping on the 142nd. And yes, I'm keeping count on this lock because of changing the architecture of the hammer, frizzen arc and internals. Anyway, it works and hardening all the parts was icing on the cake. Makes for wonderful clean-up too!
Susie
-
4140
"Heat Treatment
This alloy is hardened by heating to 1550 F and quenching in oil. It is best to normalize the alloy by heating at 1675 F for a long enough time to permit thorough heating, followed by air cooling, prior to the hardening treatment."
You will find this or similar information on 4140 by a simple Google search.
4140 can be case hardened by a water quench and left with a soft core.
But its not something that can be done reliably in a shop with a torch.
For case hardened parts it is better to use steel that is more suitable. 1018 will make good tumblers and sears if properly case hardened. In fact I would PREFER 1018 though high carbon steel hardened and tempered will work OK and might be better for selling to the general public.
Dan