AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Roger Fisher on November 09, 2010, 06:13:11 PM
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Last Saturday at a paper shoot for Turkeys, a young guy (about 60ish) was shootin the offhand targets with an underhammer half stock piece with a big ol pancake peep sight and globe front sight (and the other 18 of us were banging away with our 'fixed' open sights. Needless to say he pounded us on that 50 yd 6" black bull with a 3 shot target that scored a 30 XXX coulda covered the shots with a nickel, whew! Come to think of it I recall it was the only match he placed in. ::) In any case what do you folks think of peepsights shooting against open sights in the matches ;)
Only trying to get a 'read' on this question.... Our club is open sights only (shaders okay in chunk match). We would have a peep sighted match if at least 3 shooters would shoot it. ???
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Two clubs I've been a member of over the years welcomed any non-glass sights. BUT peeps never competed with open sights. Odd though, that one of the clubs didn't distinguish among rifles, smoothbores, flint, percussion, rifle sights, or front sight only. Peeps are just another animal. Once you use them yourself, you understand. An absolute advantage, especially to old eyes. Like mine.
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Is your question aimed at whether your club ought to consider a rule change to allow peeps, or whether the shooter shouldn't have been allowed to compete with peep sight contrary to club rules?
At our yearly 'vous or if we host a more formal State shoot, the rules call out what type sights (OS, AMS, FS, etc) are allowed in each match, and the rules are posted in advance and enforced. If your clubs "open sights" rules were published & posted, so that the shooter using the peep sight should have known about the restriction, he should have been disqualified. If the open sight rule is just a 'general understanding' or 'how we've always done it', then he was legal, beat you fair and square, and next year you guys can modify the rules and/or post them better. (BTW, three shots in the 10-X ring says to me there was more at play than just the peep sight - he was holding that rifle steady as a flamin' rock!)
Our monthly matches are looser and (so far, knock wood) friendly. I shoot my open sighted flinter against a competitor shooting a half stock mule ear with peep sight - sometimes I win, sometimes don't (okay, usually don't :( ), but I don't consider myself being beaten just because of the differences in equipment.
SCL
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IMO...in any walk of life...if there truly is a contest...regardless of whever the stakes might be...then there should be a level playing field for all participants.
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Is your question aimed at whether your club ought to consider a rule change to allow peeps, or whether the shooter shouldn't have been allowed to compete with peep sight contrary to club rules?
At our yearly 'vous or if we host a more formal State shoot, the rules call out what type sights (OS, AMS, FS, etc) are allowed in each match, and the rules are posted in advance and enforced. If your clubs "open sights" rules were published & posted, so that the shooter using the peep sight should have known about the restriction, he should have been disqualified. If the open sight rule is just a 'general understanding' or 'how we've always done it', then he was legal, beat you fair and square, and next year you guys can modify the rules and/or post them better. (BTW, three shots in the 10-X ring says to me there was more at play than just the peep sight - he was holding that rifle steady as a flamin' rock!)
Our monthly matches are looser and (so far, knock wood) friendly. I shoot my open sighted flinter against a competitor shooting a half stock mule ear with peep sight - sometimes I win, sometimes don't (okay, usually don't :( ), but I don't consider myself being beaten just because of the differences in equipment.
SCL
Nope, not 'my' club although I am a member. I have their rule book and I'll dig it up and have a look about said rules.... for the H of it only.
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Our club states "Traditional muzzleloaders shooting patched round ball and using open uncovered sights". Eliminates inlines as well as any optical sight, peeps, globes or shaders except as noted for a specific match
Mark
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The time to point out his sights is before he starts shooting.
Rules gotta be clear to everyone.
This said if he shoots that well its not his first barn dance so he may have figured he would slip in and see if it worked. OR he read the rule book and was legal??
Lollipop tang sights are HC for UH percussion rifles.
Rule changes pointed at winners is a long standing tradition I might add.
He might have lucked 3 shots together. Stranger things have happened.
Dan
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On our welcome sign at the entrance of our Black Powder range, there's a notice that says, "Round ball, and open sights only". It reminds me of the time a gentleman wanted to enter a primitive archery competition with a glass backed "traditional" bow. He couldn't believe it when I told him he could shoot, but didn't qualify for a prize. He thought he had a wooden bow, or so he said.
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At our club it's traditional type muzzleloaders (no inlines) As far as our fun shoots, trail or range, I don't care what type of sights as long as theres no glass. When it comes to shooting the small clay hanging at 100 yds for money it's open traditional. Having shot with both peep and open sights myself, I have found that the peep gives me a substantial advantage. But then I'm an old guy and my eyes are not that good anymore. Al
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If apertures/peeps, whatever you want to call them weren't an advantage, guys would have open sights on their "iron sight' match rifles. Open sights cost less and are easier to mount. Since open sights aren't competitive, no one uses them in that game. It's understandable. On the same subject, I cannot understand an individual who 'pushes' or knowingly breaks rules just to get into the winner's circle.
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At our club it's traditional type muzzleloaders (no inlines) As far as our fun shoots, trail or range, I don't care what type of sights as long as theres no glass. When it comes to shooting the small clay hanging at 100 yds for money it's open traditional. Having shot with both peep and open sights myself, I have found that the peep gives me a substantial advantage. But then I'm an old guy and my eyes are not that good anymore. Al
Come on Al at 72 or some such your still a kid... ;D
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On the same subject, I cannot understand an individual who 'pushes' or knowingly breaks rules just to get into the winner's circle.
I'm with you. It is mystifying and irritating at the same time that some people take pride in winning by working around the rules rather than practicing and competing with the allowed and conventional equipment.
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I like the concept of level playing field for all. Therefore I think the rules ought to be amended to smear vaseline on shooting glass lenses for anyone under age 60. And if the shooter doesn't use shooting glasses he gets a hand full of saw dust in the face immediately before the match!! ::)
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Knew a very good shooter back in the 70s and 80s when he was in his 60s and 70s. We overlapped territories and wound up at the same match once. He complained about the OS rule for some matches and said the folks settin it up were trying to see who had the youngest eyes not who could shoot the best. Fortunately there were a couple of AMS aggs to be shot also.
Now that I am in my mid 60s I understand his position. I still shoot open sighted flintlocks but our club isn't about prizes or medals. I get to practice as I will hunt or even get to play with a new toy.
IMO, overly restrictive rules keep participation down. Make the rules as you like so you can win, but expect fewer participants. For other matches, I read the rules and participate less and less. I can shoot closer to home for less $ and not have to worry about some a--hole trying to stick his hand in my arm pit to see if he likes my off hand position.
Dude shot a 30XXX. Bet it ain't his first rodeo and bet he complied with the rules. Tough. There was a story years ago about a fat fellow using a ? perceived advantage and winning so the club outlawed the advantage. he came back for 3 years, won each time and each time they outlawed something. Finally they outlawed fat guys so he lost 30 pounds and beat them again.
TC
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Last Saturday at a paper shoot for Turkeys, a young guy (about 60ish) was shootin the offhand targets with an underhammer half stock piece with a big ol pancake peep sight and globe front sight (and the other 18 of us were banging away with our 'fixed' open sights. Needless to say he pounded us on that 50 yd 6" black bull with a 3 shot target that scored a 30 XXX coulda covered the shots with a nickel, whew! Come to think of it I recall it was the only match he placed in. ::) In any case what do you folks think of peepsights shooting against open sights in the matches ;)Only trying to get a 'read' on this question.... Our club is open sights only (shaders okay in chunk match)[/b]. We would have a peep sighted match if at least 3 shooters would shoot it. ???
Seems to me he was cheating - but no one had the intestinal fortitude to say anything.
As to TComp's post, above - if someone said let me use my peep sights in your open sight match or I'm going home - I'd merely tell him to drive safely.
That fellow would be a guest - not a memeber. Our club is members and member's guests only. Out of roughly 150 shooters at Hefley Creek Rondy every year, no one tries to push the rules or to get away with closed sights. Guess that says something for the folks that shoot there.
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At my club we have a younge man in his 90,s and he never pushes the rules!! Yes some will aways see how far they can go.Tothem it is the prize not the game .or the tradition . This excuse of old eyes is getting old.I welded for 30 years and am glad I am not blind, would never think of pushing the rules posted or not, sometimes we guest have to play the cards we have. :-\
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I cant see open sights anymore. Most BP shooting events are for open sights only. I find it difficult to stay interested when I cant see the sights. I dont shoot much anymore. If I knew where I could shoot matches with percussion target rifles with historically correct sights I would have fun and do well.
Joe. :)
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Joe - does Friendship not have such events?
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I'm sure they do Daryl. I meant local matches. Also the International BP org. Most all their matches are back East and Europe. I dont know if anyone picked up the ball after Terry Savage passed away.
Joe.
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Roger;
My wife keeps telling me that I act like a Kid. About a week ago A fellow phoned me that was heavy into black powder. Wanted to get rid of his leather, said he doesn't shoot anymore. Invited him to come to our shoot but wasn't interested. He was 76 "SCARRY". I hope I'm still acting like a kid when I get there and beyond. Al
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I shoot at 4 different clubs, when I can get to them, and every one welcomes any metalic sights, must depend on what part of the country you live in, I have a friend who lived his whole life in New York and has shot since the 60's and was able to shoot the peeps, he retired and moved to another state and there are no clubs that allow them,none. We have several guys who shoot opens right along beside the ams sights and still win their share of matches. I go to one club that allows any muzzleloader, any sight any projectile, yes they welcome all, they are trying to get more people involved knowing they will probably end up with a traditional rifle if they get hooked.
We do have primitive matches at these clubs that are separate from our line matches, these shoots are open sights only.
As for the NMLRA at Friendship there are matches for any muzzleloader, I think I am safe in saying if you have a muzzleloader you will have a match to shoot it in. You shoot aggs for the different types of sights and different types of ignition but you are not limited to just ams, opens, or scopes, if an agg says ams you can still use opens but no scope, if the match allows scopes you can still use opens or peeps, now if the agg calls for opens then opens is all you can use. If a guy wanted to he could take a flintlock with open sights and shoot in all of the matches, he would be competing against the percussion guns with peep sights if that's what the agg called for but he could still shoot in the agg. I hope I didn't confuse anyone.
There are hundreds of matches at Friendship, for every type of muzzleloader so you just have to pic the aggs/matches you want to shoot, I have always shot the offhand line matches, but there are trap, skeet, sporting clays,quailwalk for shotgun, pistol, bench/x-stick, primitive, silhouette, long range ml rifle, chunk, slug gun, woodswalk! I pretty much stay on the offhand line and take a truckload of guns along to shoot the various aggs. I do envy the fellow that grabs his rifle and pouch and goes to a match!! When I load up the truck for 9 days at Friendship I feel like I am moving!
Regards, Steve Chapman
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I wonder if some of this use of advantageous sights isn't self-indulgence. Getting old makes things harder. If you don't like shooting to the best of whatever abilities you have according to the rules, then don't shoot. I'm only 42, but the twenty-somethings can definitely see better than I, and I have to work to beat them when I can, egg-shaped targets, blurry sights and all. A peep would make it easier, but that isn't the contest as I see it.
I also get beaten frequently by older guys who have more experience and practice. In several of those cases, I'm sure their eyesight makes mine look like a twenty-year olds. That's not fair either to them or me, but it isn't against the rules.
Its a shooting contest, and the main component of that is the shooter, assuming the equipment is all the same. Do it or don't do it, but don't try to bend the rules to win or hold on to some standard that time and age have stolen. I've never seen a prize at a ML'ing contest that was worth being a jack *ss over.
Incidentally, I'm happy to see younger people win -- they are the future of the sport. I'm halfway to has-been already age-wise, and I just got started :).
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Here, we don't have a paper match - just a primitive trail - most guys here shoot flinters, but there is the odd cap-gun. I prefer to shoot flint, but if I want to have a chance at winning, I have to shoot cap. I'm still learning to shoot the flinters and getting better all the time, but caplocks are definitely more accurate- for me. All guns compete on equal ground. All have open sights - most, but not all are primitive sights. There are some factory adjustables on factory guns, of course, but they're open and allowed.
There are sights that are open, but still allow the same 'type' of aiming that a peep provides. We've discussed this before - even to drawing pictures of an open sight that is allowed in State Chunk Shooting, but which gives a peep-sight's "circle the bead" aiming system. That sight is allowed in open sight shoots - so that is the one a person who cannot possibly see their open sights, should go to - not to use an adjustable peep and complain.
A full buckhorn, aka Hawken, is a similar sight and would be allowed anywhere. Mount the front blade or bead high for a centre hold and there is a 'legal' peep, with the 'ear's of the horns almost touching - but not quite. That site allows those with poor eye-sight to shoot competitively.
There is absolutely no reson for mounting a Redfield or Central-type International sights on flinter or caplock hunting rifles. I'll expand that to include the Lyman Peep sights designed for TC and the Spanish Italian guns that looks similar. To put one on, is merely an attempt to 'get an edge' and enter the '@!*% the rules' game. It is not in the 'flavour' of shooting open sighted muzzleloading rifles. IMHO OC. (Of Course)
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You should have said something before the shoot last Saturday. If your club is open sights only the shooter should have been told before he shot, it's way too late now.
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How I wish I could see open sights like I used to but haveing had a lot of eye surgery some just last week. I have found a open sight I can see, the fiber optic it is a godsend for my eyes . I put them on my old homemade flinter and I'm gonna get me a deer this year. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be to tied up in the rules these shoots are supposed to be fun for ALL
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You should have said something before the shoot last Saturday. If your club is open sights only the shooter should have been told before he shot, it's way too late now.
This club is not 'my' club and I am not an 'officer' of said club, nor am I range Officer. This young guy was actually shooting awhile b/4 I noticed those peep sights. I didn't want to be a P about it so I kept my big mouth shut (which isn't easy). I checked their 'rule' book and it says nothing about peep sights in the offhand matches.
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If the rule book doesn't prohibit peeps, or equivalently say something like "only open sights in offhand matches", the man sounds like he was shooting legal, fair & square, etc to me. Instead of bashing him for unsportsmanlike conduct, you could equally praise him for thinking outside the box, & being innovative so as to give his fellow shooters his best competitive effort to overcome.
And, from the peep sight user's point of view, suppose (hypothetically) he had made a special effort to attend the match, driven a couple of hundred miles looking forward to friendly competition and making new buddies, and then gotten pinged on because he wasn't following an unwritten rule. He could have left thinking the hosting club would do ANYTHING to make sure one of their own good ol' boy members won. I recall a few years ago making inquiries about the rules for an upcoming match (a match, not a rendezvous), and asked if inline pistols were allowed in the pistol match. Instead of a yes/no answer, I was only told they 'preferred you to shoot tradtional pistol.' I would not have been happy competing with a Kentucky flinter against inline zip guns, Rugers and Patriots, nor would I have been happy taking my Zip gun and being the only guy on the line with one. The rules define what a level playing field is for an event.
If the incident really bothers the club and the members feel it violated the spirit of the game, a rule change is in order before next year. At a Range Officer Training class, I think I remember the instructor saying one approach is for a club to invoke the NMLRA rule book, with any exceptions the local club wants to make posted. Start the match off by saying "Guys, club rules are posted over on that bulletin board. Read and Heed. Good shooting."
It's been thought provoking thread- thanks for starting it. SCL
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I'm not quite sure I know what "open" sights are.
Is this an open sight?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackofthewolf.com%2FimgPart%2Frs-ca-peep-16_1.jpg&hash=4e99d1874a0518307578741344b7fa3eeda03190)
Our matches are generally "iron" sights and "any" sights. The latter including scopes, the former does not include scopes. And that is all there is to it. Works for us.
I don't think a peep sight is a huge advantage in an off hand match. In a bench match, maybe, esp at longer distances. In an offhand match. Not so much.
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I'm not quite sure I know what "open" sights are.
Is this an open sight?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackofthewolf.com%2FimgPart%2Frs-ca-peep-16_1.jpg&hash=4e99d1874a0518307578741344b7fa3eeda03190)
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The sight pictured isn't an open sight, at least according to NMLRA rule 5020: Must have a U, V or Rectangular opeing, as wide at the top as any part of the notch. A buckhorn sight is legal provided the horns have a minimum of 1/4 inch opening at the top.....Fixed rear open sights may have no mechanical means of adjusting windage or elevation....Adjustable Rear open sight may have a mechanical means of adjusting.
What you pictured would meet the rule for Any Metallic Sight or the rule for Any Sight.
Of course, not many clubs follow NMLRA rules too closely.
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SCL, thanks for the clarification.
Brent
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We use peep sights effectively at 1000 yds. Absolutely better than open sights BUT,I think that the main issue in 50 yd matches is the "offhand" I think that is the real equalizer.
Wouldn't bother me under those circumstances.
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Not sure the offhand position qualifies as an equalizer, Bob. I've shot some mighty fine targets with apertures at 50 yards and 100 for that matter in offhand position, 'Times' tighter than I could with open sights.
Here, the sight simply must have an opening at the top. A jeweler's saw will make a peep-sight legal for those who actually cannot see any notch in a rear sight. If my sight was a lot worse, that's what I'd do - probably with an undersized full buckhorn. So far, the notches in my rear sights are growing with the help of a file and they're useable again. The 2 rifles with Express sights are the best, visibly.(wide V and bead)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fsights3.jpg&hash=562ebdeef335070947896fc5704056565515578e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FExpresssightpicure.jpg&hash=f6da10b971e8335f636205fc8e069f0284362a94)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2FP4291715.jpg&hash=ff3c781f2013ed314d6cf6db04e38ad2be511321)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2FP4291716.jpg&hash=9d76eebdb1104274cec3ad7ea28f291b46c27e2b)
Here, these are also legal -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FBuckhornAperturesight.jpg&hash=6f8fdb2972224d4900b3b8d839bdd40708519ccc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FAperturerearsight2.jpg&hash=3e6da02c4148d25d0c65f1ebe0eb88e777e13b0c)
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I meant that offhand was an equalizer where most folks we've shot with were concerned...not you Daryl ! I'd want every advantage, or as level a playing field as possible if you were shooting ;D
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You should have said something before the shoot last Saturday. If your club is open sights only the shooter should have been told before he shot, it's way too late now.
This club is not 'my' club and I am not an 'officer' of said club, nor am I range Officer. This young guy was actually shooting awhile b/4 I noticed those peep sights. I didn't want to be a P about it so I kept my big mouth shut (which isn't easy). I checked their 'rule' book and it says nothing about peep sights in the offhand matches.
Yep, sounds like the 30XXX shooter knew what was going on. Looks like there was no problem to begin with.
TC
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That's my take as well, TComp.
Bob - I always compete on a level ground, unless Im shooting the 14 bore. I think it's either the concussion wave or perhaps the ground movement that disturbs the other shooters.
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It’s a fact of life as we get older a person’s eyes lose their focusing ability and a “old shooter” no longer able to hold a good iron-sight picture and it happens to everybody. But you still want to shoot, even competitively; They say it helps to move the rear sight farther down the barrel even as far and beyond the fore stock entrance pipes if needed, trying different sights could optimize your sight picture too. But the simplest and probably the most significant thing you can do is to use an “optical” sight aids a pinhole device on your shooting glasses, this will sharpen the focus of objects at every distance. You can buy these but are very simple to make just use a small piece of black plastic electricians tape with a 1/16-inch hole punch in it (the smallest size punch of a common leather punch). Make several and keep them stuck to something inside your shooting pouch, like the top and bottom of a cap box, when needed just peel off and stick it onto your glasses, up in the inner corner for rifle shooting. The truth is it’s not rocket science, I read a story about an old buffalo hunter that would smear mud on his glasses and when dried picked a small pinhole, they had the knowledge. The important thing is to keep on shooting, the pinhole glasses don’t give any advantage over younger eyes, but sure help overcome the disadvantage of older eyes. Free Trapper ;D
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I have since examined that club's 'booklet' listing each month's shoots and the targets etc are listed for each month on seperate pages. I have found now, that each listing for each match states whether that match is open sights or 'metallic' sights. I realize now that I have done them a disservice in implying that the shooter shooting with the fancy peep sights was shooting those sights in an open sight match. He was not :o The shooters shooting open sights were shooting a metallic sight match with their 'open' sights. Which was all well and good. I apologize for my error. (Which isn't easy)
Anyway, some ol guys have to pay attention better ::)
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Don't fret Roge r- some of us makes mistakes all the time - apologising is becoming easy - the more you do it, the easier it is. ;D
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The "rules" is an argument I've gotten into several times over. The "rules" are the "rules" - there's no "allowance" or "discussion" the day of the match, they are what they are and need to be or things will spiral out of control until most of the shooters just say "screw it". Back in the 80's I shot in a circuit that demanded mil-spec only with the only exceptions being for muzzle breaks, the actions could be tweaked but no parts could be added/removed. It didn't take long before there was talk of allowing guns and equipment "in the same class" and it spiraled downhill from there, enter the sponsors with their $10k+ custom guns shooting target loads as opposed to mil-spec, then away went the rule of having to carry all your stuff with you for the entire match as it was part of the original competition.... end result was wrecking the game and pushing all the poor working-class shooters out of it and the whole thing flopped with a year because spectators had no desire to go watch a bunch of snotty "employee" shooters using equipment the common folks would never have.
My take on this now, is exactly what my take was before - if you change or bend the rules for one thing, you may as well just throw the whole book out and forget it. If you're going to allow the "old dude" to use an aperture sight or eyeglass-mounted aperture clarifier, then all the shooter must be afforded the use of such. I'm more familiar with CF matches but in most of those, especially when there's substantial prizes, the rules are usually quite detailed and no "exceptions" are ever even considered. If you're going to give "consideration" for eyesight then why not afford someone with physical issues the consideration of using a stick or bench in the offhand match? I mean, if you're going to allow eyesight enhancers, why not allow physical enhancers as well? I have a couple steady clients who are nearly double my age, both have eyesight issues yet with my physical issues, I don't stand a chance against either one of them in an offhand bullseye match. This is no different than the golfer who wanted to ride in the cart because his legs hurt yet all the others had to walk ... sorry Charlie, the rules are what they are for a reason.
Mark
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The "rules" is an argument I've gotten into several times over. The "rules" are the "rules" - there's no "allowance" or "discussion" the day of the match, they are what they are and need to be or things will spiral out of control until most of the shooters just say "screw it". Back in the 80's I shot in a circuit that demanded mil-spec only with the only exceptions being for muzzle breaks, the actions could be tweaked but no parts could be added/removed. It didn't take long before there was talk of allowing guns and equipment "in the same class" and it spiraled downhill from there, enter the sponsors with their $10k+ custom guns shooting target loads as opposed to mil-spec, then away went the rule of having to carry all your stuff with you for the entire match as it was part of the original competition.... end result was wrecking the game and pushing all the poor working-class shooters out of it and the whole thing flopped with a year because spectators had no desire to go watch a bunch of snotty "employee" shooters using equipment the common folks would never have.
My take on this now, is exactly what my take was before - if you change or bend the rules for one thing, you may as well just throw the whole book out and forget it. If you're going to allow the "old dude" to use an aperture sight or eyeglass-mounted aperture clarifier, then all the shooter must be afforded the use of such. I'm more familiar with CF matches but in most of those, especially when there's substantial prizes, the rules are usually quite detailed and no "exceptions" are ever even considered. If you're going to give "consideration" for eyesight then why not afford someone with physical issues the consideration of using a stick or bench in the offhand match? I mean, if you're going to allow eyesight enhancers, why not allow physical enhancers as well? I have a couple steady clients who are nearly double my age, both have eyesight issues yet with my physical issues, I don't stand a chance against either one of them in an offhand bullseye match. This is no different than the golfer who wanted to ride in the cart because his legs hurt yet all the others had to walk ... sorry Charlie, the rules are what they are for a reason.
Mark
This is why I quit shooting IPSC - the rule changers won.
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And the rule for the match in the initial post was AMS.
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An interesting thought. When I went to Florida to visit my sister in law I took a rifle and possibles along as there was a black powder shoot during my vacation down there. They had several diffierent classes including a" Magoo" class, as in Mr. Magoo, that was AMS with a minimum age requirement! I liked the gang of shooters and had a real good time. I was the only flint shooter there. I was probably one of the youngest shooters there also. I still shot well enough to place third overall. A good day.
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Like the name. Knew EXACTLY what the restrictions were when I read it.
TC