AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Rainman on December 31, 2010, 05:12:30 PM
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What was the average caliber of J.P. Becks rifles? Just looking for a range.
Thanks
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Off the top of my head, from what I've seen...around .45 to .50. Don't recall any smaller than .44 though. You'll see odd sizes by todays standards like, .47 .48 .52
Thinking of building one?
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Yeah but I was thinking a 62 or 58 because I want a larger caliber for stake shoots.
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Hi Rainman,
So make a J. P. Beck that is 58 cal. Who cares if Beck never made a gun that size? No one here is going to send a "historically correctness" policeman to your door.
dave
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HC police: there are a few around, but are you doing this build for them or you?
Personally, I like to stay within the 'realm of the possible' on my builds. That means the hardware and lock, stock style, carving, etc, should fit within a certain time period; and within that constraint, reflect a certain mix of cultures, etc.
The caliber you're talking doesn't bother ME. The few Beck's I've seen have been fairly slim, so the only danger would be that you'd end up with a fat Beck if you use a big barrel.
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Hi Rainman,
So make a J. P. Beck that is 58 cal. Who cares if Beck never made a gun that size? No one here is going to send a "historically correctness" policeman to your door.
dave
my thoughts exacty, if you would have went to beck he would have made you whatever you wanted in the way of calibers if he could have gotten the barrel. At least that is the way I have it figured?
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Thanks for the input.
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In my picture book on K rifles there is a picture of a 60 cal Beck which is hefty enough to look like its built that way. Barrrel dimensions are probably more important than caliber. On that I would defer to others. Most of the Beck guns were shown at or about 50 cal.
DP
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Yeah but I was thinking a 62 or 58 because I want a larger caliber for stake shoots.
If you want a large bore for stake shoots make one but very few American rifles were this large.
If I had to say I would say the average when MADE for rifles was 50 or less.
Dan
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What was the average caliber of J.P. Becks rifles? Just looking for a range.
Thanks
Welcome to the forum Rainman, stay within the safety parameters and no one will raise much dust.
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Rainman...........If you like the Beck rifle, build it in any calibre you want. No one can say he never built one like that.
Personally, I don't think you can find a better kentucky to copy, especially in a big bore. They are an extremely comfortable gun to shoot..........go for it..................Don
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Years ago I created a database and I see that the average caliber for Beck from my list is .53. Interestingly, the standard deviation is .07, which suggests you can build just about any caliber you want and claim it is in the correct and faithful pattern of J P Beck.
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Thanks for the info. Looks like it will be a big bore.
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Simply put, the Beck style is a good bet for a big bore.
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Thanks for the info. Looks like it will be a big bore.
As Bill Shipman has hinted for calibers over 54-58 you must be very careful of stock design. If the rifle requires 100+ grains for accuracy, and it may, recoil in 62 WILL be a factor and a great many Kentucky buttstocks and almost all American rifles after 1790 or so are not suitable, most Becks and rifles like the RCA #48 Dickert and some others will be OK. I would not build a Kentucky in 62 I would build a 1750-1810 English rifle. But this is personal choice.
If you can get a narrow land barrel with rifling .010-.008" deep it will likely shoot hardened lead as well if not better than pure lead. This will be a plus in shooting stakes and maybe in hunting large bears ;D
Dan
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You could bump up the range of Beck's documented used calicers to .54 . In one signed specimine I was priveleged to examine and measure. This Beck gun was a bit more robust than some would think proper today. It had a 2 in wide butt, and was reasonably rubust all over. Based on this example perhaps we tend to get carried away on putting these guns on a "Diet". If I were to properly copy this gun, I would acually need to refrain abit from over slimming out of habit.
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I too would go with .54 to be right in the ball park but like other said - pick the cal. to fit your way and that will be the right way. Just watch the architecture carfully. Keep it slim in the proper places.
Darrin
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a few yrs ago it was my understanding that the average cal for an eastern longrifle was 42 while the average for a plains/mtn rifle was 52. but we all know that they ranged a longways from the average. go as advised by the others here, most of them have more knowledge than i will ever be able to gain. good luck and i have a 62 in fullstock hawken and love it. thinking about making a jaeger in 62, great caliber. mark
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There is an excellent chance that Beck and others made rifles of 54 or larger.
But...
When looking at old ML rifles one much remember that a those that saw much use were inevitably recut or "freshed" in their lifetime.
It was a pretty common practice.
We also have a very small sample of rifled from the time to examine.
A man I know who has FRESHED barrels tells me it will increase the bore about .02" thus a 44 becomes a 46, a 48 becomes a 50 and 50 becomes a 52. IF it really needs to be done if its not damaged that much "leading" the barrel will usually suffice and will result in a much smaller increase in size.
It does not take a great deal of wear and pitting to require .010 on a side to be removed to clean a bore and this was the purpose, clean and freshen the bore. It takes a lot of lapping to remove .005".
Look at some of the rifles in RCA. Some are obviously early rifles that were converted to percussion and used for sometime after that. So, the rifle is made in 1774, its used into the 19th century and is converted to percussion circa 1840 this is 66 YEARS. Then it was used for a few more years, perhaps until the 1900s. My grandfather hunted with a ML in his youth and I don't imagine it was to recreate the past. Bottom line? There was plently of time to get worn or corroded enough to need freshing.
Look at rifles that have not seen a lot of use and you will find that these fall into the range mentioned by Col Hanger who says he never saw one over 36 to the pound, about 52 caliber.
He also states he saw hundreds of rifles while in America.
So when someone asks about the AVERAGE bore size I figure 50 is probably on the upper end of average even if smooth rifles are included since I am fairly sure these got rebored if they were pitted much and quite a few were likely rifles when made. Since smooth rifles were not intended for shot they were more likely the be smaller bored than fowling pieces.
This based on some surviving rifles. The Thomas rifle, and several others including RCA #48. JJ Henry's description of a rifle he carried to Quebec.
I used to believe the same thing. When I was in my teens back in the 60s everyone "knew" the Rev-War guns were big bores like 54 or 58. But this statement will not survive research and critical thinking.
The Rifles imported by the British were often 58 caliber but these were for the native trade and they sold ammo too.... A 50 caliber made 40 balls to the pound of lead a 58 caliber about 25 to the pound and more powder to drive it. Its a win win for the man selling powder and lead.
The 1792 Contract rifles were 49-50 caliber after all and these were Military rifles and the people that wrote the specification likely served in the Revolution.
So people thinking that JP Beck rifles would AVERAGE 54 caliber when MADE might want to stop and do a little more thinking and research about the rifles of the time and way they were used, how effective they were and the intended game etc etc.
Wouldn't be nice to find a selection or rifling rods in some musty old house marked JP Beck that we could measure?
But its not that easy and would not show what the average size was anyway.
People are free to make what ever caliber rifle they want of course and this is of no importance unless they want a HC caliber for some reason. In this case having a "typical" JP Beck means having something more like 44 or 50 caliber.
Dan
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Rainman: Forget the average cal. of the old original Becks - this new gun will be for you! As long as t is done in the style of "J.P." ( if that's what you want). No one should complain or criticize! ;) Also, today we have a different take on the size of gun barrels. Historically the iron barrels produced throughout the muzzle loading age tended to be much thicker and heavier then those being produced today. It didn't seem to matter the cal. or length! I've handled hundreds antique longrifles and remain amazed as to the heavy barrels they are fitted with. I think that today we have become accustomed to modern firearms with much lighter barrels and this trend has crept into the contemporary realm of longrifles. Hugh Toenjes
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While it is true that most rifles used in the Rev war were 50 or smaller I do not believe this would apply for most longhunters who were shooting elk and eastern woodland buffalo. Another point to remember is very few if any rifles survived that were used heavily out in the wilderness so we don't have these rifles to study.
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While it is true that most rifles used in the Rev war were 50 or smaller I do not believe this would apply for most longhunters who were shooting elk and eastern woodland buffalo. Another point to remember is very few if any rifles survived that were used heavily out in the wilderness so we don't have these rifles to study.
This is likely one of those "your mileage may very" things.
50 cal as considered minimum in the mountain west for larger game, calibers smaller than this were just too light. If I were a longhunter going after deer I would not likely exceed 44-50 regardless. But I would probably use head shots as much as possible. Buffalo shot in the lungs with a 50-54 are likely going to run 1/4 mile plus. So shoot them between the ear and the eye.
Ranges in the east were generally far shorter than in the west.
Dan
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I have a Beck, love it. I also really like the Haines design. A friend has one in .54, "C" weight Getz,42 inches long. I mentioned the barrel length because another friend has the shorter offering and I like the longer somewhat more. I could see a .62 in an Isaac Haines,with it's nice wide butt being a very nice shooter for that style of shooting. Good for any North American big game also! I'm not sure that the "C" weight is made in .62 but I think the "D" weight is.( just thought I'd throw out another option)