AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Rasch Chronicles on January 15, 2011, 01:03:53 PM
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Howdy fellows,
I was standing at the ECP (Entry Control Point) waveing my baton of unidentified wood around. As the heavy wood met an object of far less density with a satisfying and resounding CRACK, I got to thinking.
I wondered if back in the day, stockmakers ever used other woods? Everyone tends towards the walnut, maple, and cherry, but I would think that other types of wood might have been used.
Any thoughts?
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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There is a well documented Bucks Co. rifle stocked in Hickory. I used a piece of Hickory on a Schroyer type rifle and it made a rather nice gun, just a bit more weight, and more difficult to work. Ash has a long history of use, and can be quite attractive. Beech was sometimes used on European guns, and i suspect a few sticks may have been used this side of the pond. There are some originals out there that have "mystery" wood in them that has never been positively identified. I am sure some of the guys from down south will be able to document guns from their area having atypical woods used in the stock.
Ron
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As I understand it (never seen a piece of chestnut wood!) Chestnut wood is too soft.
Oak is WAAAAAYYYY too unstable to really use as a gunstock, though I know it was done on rare occasion.
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If I'm not mistaken, all of these woods are ring pourous and therefore have an uneven open grained structure. I know a few guns were made of perhaps some of these woods, but I don't see a good reason for it today. I know some use ash today, but I feel about the same with it. In my mind, it pretty hard to beat a good piece of maple.
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OK, folks, as long as we're on the subject, may I add two more possibles? Anybody ever seen a stock made of persimmon? Very dense (used in golf clubs) and dark. It grows in Indiana and elsewhere in the Midwest. How about ironwood? Grows in Arizona, gorgeous, reddish, so dense (and heavy; sigh) it -- like ebony -- doesn't float in water. Any examples? -- paulallen, tucson az.
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I have a friend that is using a piece of persimon to stock a rifle and he regrets the choice. He's generally pretty adventurous with using different types of wood and has not found the persimon to be a good experience. His biggest gripe so far is that it's moving around an awful lot. Seems to lack stability.
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I made a free rifle stock using elm; worked very well :)
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I had to remove a Dog wood tree and thought it would make interesting project wood. It was cut up into planks an let cure in the shop. This stuff was a lot more dense than I thought. It could be used I would think to make a pistol out of. It reminds me of pear wood, having a very close grain and responding well to the blades of my planer. It would be a dream to carve.
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Fellows,
Yeah, I got to thinking, and though I didn't realize that chestnut was so soft, I wondered how many hickory or pecan stocks there might be. I made a small block plane out of hickory some 20 years ago and it's been pretty stable. Albeit it is rather small. I figured oak might be too coarse, and it might move more than desireable. I forgot about elm, it's pretty straight grained and slick.
Thanks guys!
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style! (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi550.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii425%2FDavidpeck16%2FGrouseFowler%2FgrouseFowler002.jpg&hash=653a78762eefc12eee301ba1fe85168090217b19)
I made the fowler out of a birch I cut myself. Birch has been used in modern guns but is a little softer than some maples. One European contributer called that figure fire birch which is desirable for guns and furniture over there. I have seen quite a bit of curl and figure in birch firewood. Unfortunately that piece only had it at the stump. Aspens also can have some interesting figure and might work in a non carved gun. Again a bit soft.
DP
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One other point I may make. I have no suitable maple for a gunstock, hickory or other woods on my place. I could go white oak as I have some of them large enough. Its too cold in my area for most of the gun wood trees. Choice of woods likely depended upon that more so in early days than now as I can mail order woods. Many areas do not have birch for instance.
DP
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Couple of years ago at the gunmakers hall at Friendship, someone had a very nice poorboy style rifle with a mulberry stock. Looked perfectly suitable.
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I've seen a number of guns stocked in apple and even pear wood. I've only ever seen one oak stocked fowler/musket and it was heavy as sin and not very attractive. Red oak I think it was.
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Years ago a friend bought a rifle at Friendship with a stock of cedar. He paid almost nothing for it and planned to restock it. Before going to bed he stripped the metal from the stock and threw the stock in the campfire. Some friends (not me) returned the stock, put out the fire, reassembled the gun and put a note on it about how hot the gun shot that day. Everyone had a good laugh.
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Good choices for stock wood: The big three are Maple, cherry, walnut. Ocasionally suitable pieces of other fruitwood can be found (apple pear etc.) Pear wood works incredibly well. Not sure if I've encountered a better wood to carve. Personally I don't believe I would use any wood other than those mentioned above.
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I think Kendig mentions a few rifles stocked in fruit wood.
Good choices for stock wood: The big three are Maple, cherry, walnut. Ocasionally suitable pieces of other fruitwood can be found (apple pear etc.) Pear wood works incredibly well. Not sure if I've encountered a better wood to carve. Personally I don't believe I would use any wood other than those mentioned above.
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Notes from the Resident Forester ;D....USDA Agricultural Handbook #72, "Wood Handbook, Wood As An Engineering Material" will give you all of the data that you could ever want on all species of native woods used in the lumber trade as well as most if not all tropical species. Everything that you could ever want to know and compare is here. For example: The ability of Persimmon wood fibers to withstand sudden shock is tops on the list. Golf club heads were often made of Persimmon for this reason. Dogwood has about the tightest grain of all native woods. Thread spindles in cotton mills were usually made from Dogwood because of this. Chestnut is highly rot resistant-or was. It's all gone now. So is Black Locust highly rot resistant, and it is also the most dimensionally stable wood of all American species. I've always thought that a chunkgun stock out of Black Locust would be about perfect! No movement ever-hot, cold, wet, dry-No Movement! I'm sure that there are several tropical hardwood species that would be superior for stock material. The "Wood Handbook" will give engineering data on these for comparison. I think maybe Wayne Dunlap may even have some of these high-end species in his inventory.
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Goex,
Red Oak!?!? Wow...
That must have been a real interesting piece...
Though I suppose if it was well executed, and took advantage of the straight grain it would be ok, I guess. But it is such a porous wood, how would you seal it?...
Really interesting stuff guys.
I'm thinking chunk gun and Live Oak!
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style! (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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When he was working in Oregon a few decades ago, Steven Dodd Hughes sometimes used our native madrone (arbutus for you guys in B.C.), and they looked great. It's pretty tough to find a hunk that will work for a long gun. Hard to get dry and even harder to get stable. Woodturners hereabouts like to turn it green and then watch it as it twists and turns into amazing shapes as it dries.
I've liked the curly ash stocks I've seen. Wasn't there a gun shown here that had a stock of sassafrass or some such?
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I used to have a rifle stock made by a well known gunsmith in the '50s (CF) that was mesquite. In my ignorance I threw it in the trash. :-[
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Alright y'all'how about american poplar?It is used in furniture,especially in my trade,pipe organs,as a main support and wind chest wood.I am thinking about building a pistol or two with it to see how it works on this.Using big saws and planers,it works fine.How about it,any one ever try this?Dave
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I built a .40 caplock for a cabinet maker friend, based on a Jerman Jordan rifle (Ohio Longrifles, Volume II, page 56). He wanted it make from Chinese Elm and he did not want it stained. I also built the other two rifles here.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/Pict0155.jpg)
The Chinese elm had interesting figure and worked pretty good.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/Pict0143.jpg)
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Herb!
That one rocks! Very unique and attractive even if not HC.
Does anyone else have some out of the ordinary stocks to show off?
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style! (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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Yellow Poplar, though it can be quite colorful, is way too soft for rifle stocking.
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I have seen a rifle stocked in Hackberry and I have two blanks of that stuff. I also have a very old halfstock that is an original (it's just the stock, nothing else) that is pine!
Don't know if it's curly pine, but it's pine.....
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I beg to differ a little on the use of chestnut. I know we are primarily talking about longrifle stocks, but we often get into fowlers and occasionally Rev. war muskets. There are surviving muskets from the period stocked in chestnut. I know I have seen pictures of at least one Committee of Safety musket so stocked and I believe Neuman has pictures of others. Wormey
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There used to be a very large antique fowler at the Fort at Number 4 in Charlestown, N.H. that was stocked in chestnut and was in fine shape. Looked a lot like oak, but tighter grained.
It does seem like a lot of filler would be needed on an oak stock if appearance is of concern. Probably why they didn't use it much.
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Sometimes guns are stocked in an unusual wood and the "expert" at the museum or auction house will guess at what it is....often he is wrong. I have an auction catalog showing a wheel lock rifle with a "birch" stock...when it is painfully obvious it is ash.
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Built my first half-stock with African sedgua -- the only "colorful" wood I could find at the local hardwood store. It had a quilted figure. A bit too soft, but it worked. -- paulallen, tucson az
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Thanks fellows!
I really appreciate everyone sharing all of the out of the ordinary woods used. I remember back in the 70s, a fellow who was stocking Weatherby MarkV in Weatherby 300 Magnums in all sorts of exotic woods. The two I remember distinctly was Pink Ivory and Olive. I believe that he had about 50 of them...
I order my Chambers Fowler in two weeks! After that, I really think I'm going to try my hand at a flintlock chunkgun. I'll have to think about what kind of wood I will be trying. Something exotic and heavy I'm sure!
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style! (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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I use what I can locally because it can be kind of fun to cut your own. My birch stock was chewed out of a tree with a chainsaw and wedges, then shaped on my bandsaw. I have a sister stock that is probably going into a halfstock percussion. Feels kind of satisfying to save that cost even if labor wise you worked for about $1 per hour. One thing I learned about birch is that it is pretty thirsty and it pays to wait a bit after staining to see if it needs another coat. When you use other woods you may find each has its own personality in regards to working and finishing. First time experiences tend to teach us what we should have done.
DP
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Arn, who has that Chinese elm-stocked rifle, also makes furniture out of cottonwood, in the Populus family. Big logs and crotches can have some fantastic grain and be quite hard. Don't know how it would be for a full stock, but you could get half-stocks. I bought an old under-lever 12 gauge French shotgun (forget the make) from a farmer in North Dakota. There was no forend, just the lever to turn to the side to open the action, but the buttstock was chopped out of a piece of cottonwood with an axe, and looked like it too!
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Maybe a Darne?
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I have an acquaintance who built a New England fowler with a piece of locally cut apple.
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At the rate we're going, I may end up makeing one out of an Orange or Grapefruit tree!
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™ (http://inastan.blogspot.com/)
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style! (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/01/scouting-for-hogs.html)
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I built my house out of yellow poplar and I can promise you it is not soft. I defy you to go into my attic and drive a nail into one of the seasoned rafters. It is very strong for structural purposes and lasts a long time if protected. There are some covered bridges built of it in our state that were built before the civil war.
The problem with it is it's stability. My house "moves" with the humidity changes between winter and summer. I had a half inch gap that would open along my ceiling in winter when the roof structure dried out over the winter and would close up when the humidity returned in summer. I cured this with a 2 part crown moulding that is attached to the ceiling only on the top section so it "floats". Its not a very pretty grained would typically either.
I have a friend who built a plain southern mtn. type rifle out of osage orange and it is an interesting piece.
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I have a friend who built a plain southern mtn. type rifle out of osage orange and it is an interesting piece.
Must be quite the guy, just to lift it! That stuff isn't light.
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I really get a kick out of the guys that say it can never be done. like putting a finish on oak. furniture makers have been using oak and even putting a finish on it for many years. as for chestnut, they used it to build everything when the blight was killing it. flooring, barns, houses, furniture, bowls, and most likely gun stocks...Phil
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I use Maple,Cherry Walnut,and Ash,what are ya sayin'? :-\
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Rich Pouncey (woodsrunner) cut down some crate myrtle (sp?) in his yard that was about 23 years old (he'd planted it) and it had some amazing curly figure in it. I don't know if it would ever get big enough for a long gun, but maybe a pistol and surely for knife handles. I gave some to some of the knife makers at the CLA Show and Wicke Ellerbe used some of it to handle one of is boucheron knives for me. I stained it with some aquafortis and rubbed in some linseed oil and it really looked good. Some of you may have seen the piece we had on our table at the CLA Show.
James Levy
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Gunstocks were traditionally made from the wood of fruit and nut trees.
Therefore, it seems only logical that we should stock our guns in wood that comes from California, the land of fruits and nuts.
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Gunstocks were traditionally made from the wood of fruit and nut trees.
Therefore, it seems only logical that we should stock our guns in wood that comes from California, the land of fruits and nuts.
Good one 'T' ::)
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I use hard curly maple which doesn't grow here that I know of. There are fruits and nuts everywhere however!
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I use hard curly maple which doesn't grow here that I know of. There are fruits and nuts everywhere however!
R-O-F-L-M-A-O ... !!! ;D
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I had to remove a Dog wood tree and thought it would make interesting project wood. It was cut up into planks an let cure in the shop. This stuff was a lot more dense than I thought. It could be used I would think to make a pistol out of. It reminds me of pear wood, having a very close grain and responding well to the blades of my planer. It would be a dream to carve.
Interesting post. Down here in Gulf Coast Texas we've got pear trees, Dogwood, and of course, pecan. I have often wondred how these woods would work for firearms. Please keep us informed of how the Dogwood works out. 8)
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I used to have a rifle stock made by a well known gunsmith in the '50s (CF) that was mesquite. In my ignorance I threw it in the trash. :-[
I've thought about Mesquite. Down here in Texas we've got plenty of it. Now that I think about it, I think pommegranites grow here too.
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Has anyone seen an original stocked in Mahogany? It was certainly available in the 18th century - used on high-end furniture - and could be had with an outstanding figure. Pattern makers used it in recent years because it was quite stable.
I have an original half stock English export fowler. I posted here a while back. It was suggested that the wood may be mahogany, anyway it has a very red looking cast to it and is finer grained than walnut---so it may be?...Ed
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=449.0
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If you can find a copy, there's a book by Virgil M. Davis that's now out of print: Gunstock Woods and Other Fine Timbers, that discusses the suitability of many hardwoods as potential stock material. Lots of good information in it.
David
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Thanks .38 for the reply and suggestion. I just checked Amazon.com and the cheapest copy available was going for around $50+. I did order a couple others (early American tools, Appalachian gunsmith tools) and they were cheap. I'll do a search on E-bay and see what comes up.
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I'm no expert on the subject, but like all things I think there was the best wood for a project and then there was what ever was at hand that would work for a project.
Could a stock be made out of oak? Heck ya! Could it even be made pretty. Ever seen quarter sawed white oak furniture? Is it the "Best choice?" Probably not, but I doubt its the worst choice either. Same goes for any wood out there. Heck I've seen modern centerfire stocks made out of spalted Sycamore. Interesting patterns and when seasoned hard as a rock.