AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: northmn on February 09, 2011, 08:03:07 PM
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Besides being a true Oxymoron I find the weapons interesting. My interest was tweaked when I read an article by John Taylor on shooting elephants with a smooth rifle in 10 bore when he could not get regular ammo. I am now putting the final finish on one I started back when, screwed up a few times and had to put up and go back to. I almost started to restock it but decided that it was a hunting gun anyway and looked better than a Traditions factory gun. I hunted with it a little last year and it gave me a great deal of pleasure. It is a 20 bore using a trade gun style barrel but I am using a large Siler left hand lock and a sort of Beck design. It has sights and will group well within minute of deer at 75 ayrds with a 600 RB. It took a couple of grouse with 1 ounce or so of 5's (I use the same measure and used a 75 grain powder setting for both powder and shot, using exactly 1oz is a carry over to our modern thinking). Squirel did not cooperate when I carried it but it would have been nice for a couple I saw carrying the 25. It is a true "Meat" gun. Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores. For practical use I think a smooth rifle in anything from 45 cal on up has a lot of potential. Something to write about on a 15 below zero morning.
DP
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Good stuff, DP. I built one in .44 cal., oh gosh - back in the late 70's, I think, when I lived in Smithers - using a .420" ball. Dang, can't remember. I lapped in about a .004" jug choke which worked well - at least it paterned well with 1/2oz. and shot round balls well enough for bunny's heads at 30 to 45yards - even made a bunch of 50 yard shots with it. That was before I learned it was difficult to hold 2 to 3" at 50 yards with a smoothbore. Anyway, it worked.
Taylor has the 'parts' to make his new .50 Smooth Rifle - 56" bl. I think it is going to have. That will take a long rod! Good sight radius, eh?
I think John's idea on 10 bore sounds about right - .774 calibre - shoot a 3/4" ball - 610gr. in hard alloy - 635gr. in pure. I think Bob M. in Ontario uses a smooth 10 bore for moose. Should work. ;D
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I use my 20 ga. smooth rifle, 80 grains of powder under a .600 ball for deer, it sure puts them down QUICK!!!! Its also good with shot for rabbits, birds and squirrel, a real veasatile gun--- I will have to admit, one time after deer hunting all morning I was on my way back to the cabin when I spooked a big red, he ran up a tree and began barking at me at about 20 yds, well, I was gonna unload it and clean it anyway, I took his head clean off with a round ball.....LUNCH!!!!! (yes they were in season)
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This begs a question that I have been wanting to ask and one of the reasons I joined the forum so I could ask it.
I have a .40 cal smooth "rifle" that continually surprises me every time I take it out shooting. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups out to 50 yrds. (that’s the furthest I've put it on paper) One day we were shooting and a friend of mine asked if I would spot for him as he shot at a distant rock, he shot and hit no problem, then he suggested I try it with the little smoothie .40, I pull up, hold dead on, let fly and I hit dead center ! No that’s not right, it’s too far, it must be a fluke! So I try again 3 times and hit 3 times. We laser range the rock at 122 yrds, the rock the size a man’s head. The load is .380 ball, .018 pillow tick patch Balistol lubed, 40 grs. 3f Goex.
Another day we go out and set “coyote gourds”(wild growing gourds here in AZ. that are the size of a baseball or softball) at varying distances and I walk some out a good ways. We start with the close ones and work our way out to the far ones. Again, the .40 is banging away at the gourds busting them up with regularity. We range the far ones at 98 yrds ! The load this day was .375 ball, .020 canvas patch lubed with Balistol over the 40 grs. of 3f Goex. Oh, I should say the barrel is a 13/16 Green River Barrel Works from the early 80’s cut to 37 inches, bore measures .403.
This was one of the first guns I ever built. I rebuilt the gun about 6yrs. ago salvaging the barrel and the lock only. The little gun really holds its own with the rifles.
My question is, what is you all's experience with “long range” accuracy with the smooth “rifle”? Do you find you can hit generally as well as a rifled gun out at distance ?
“ northmn” is right ! the guns are an oxymoron and have a lot more potential than are given credit for.
Mark
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Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores.
I don't know where you guys keep coming up with this. There are matches for sighted smoothbores.
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Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores.
I don't know where you guys keep coming up with this. There are matches for sighted smoothbores.
depends on the club and area youre shooting in. mark
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I'm sort of new here and I don't know where you live TOF but there are no such match's with in driving distance of me here in Wyoming. I wish there was, here I have to shoot with the rifles there are just not enough smooth bore shooters here to have separate match's.
Bob
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We allow one sight on a smoothbore - the front one. No rear sights.
As to accuracy, I've not seen anything to compare with Mark's shooting.
To answer that question on smoothbore accuracy, Mark - I've never seen a smoothbore cloverleaf at 50 yards - never - I am assuming 3 shot groups and more than one lucky one. I have had 3 very close together out of a 5" or 6", 5 or 6 shot group, but that is not a cloverleaf group, even though those 3 were close.
I had a .44 cal. smoothbore that would about keep a ball on a snowshoe hare's head at 50yards - maybe 2 1/2"- is the odd miss a flyer? I would have to say that is the most accurate smoothbore I've seen, except maybe Taylor's 10 bore Bess. It needs a lot of powder to shoot well at 50yards, but it will.
I have seen fellows at Hefley Creek hit gong targets at 100 yards, even 200 yards. Some hit them often at 100 yards, I have too, but I also miss some at that range - heck, I can do that with a rifle. The hits at over 100 yards surprised all of us including the shooter, who admittingly crowed a bit.
I have personally achieved 8" groups at 100yards from a smoothbore - it was from a double barrled shotgun made in 1900, with fixed ammo and a LOT of load development - 191gr. 2f used in the load. I hav enot seen a muzzleloading smoothbore shoot a group smaller then 8" at 100 yards, but I've seen Taylor shoot a 2 1/2" 5 shot group at that range, with a ML rifle and I "once" managed a 3" 5 shot group with my 14 bore rifle using 165gr. 2F.
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I got a 3" group at 75 yards with my 20 bore but do not know if I can duplicate it all the time. Still, when I sighted the gun in it was like a rifle in that when I drifted the sights it moved where it should and when I filed the sights it moved where it should. Its accuracy was not up to my 58 rifle but it would do. It still needs work on a "cold" load as it seemed to be at its best slightly fouled. My thicker patch material did not help over a thinner one except it loaded harder. I do load very fussy and put the parting line from the casting upright. I am thinking about putting a small punch mark in the mold to be able to load every ball the same. I personally hold that a smooth bore needs more consistancy than a rifle. I should jug choke the thing to increase its range with shot. I do not do a lot of wing shooting with a flintlock but I can break clay pigeons with the thing. The grouse I get with it are generally setting. Getting a flying ruffie in the woods with a flintlock would be a real trophy.
DP
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There are matches for sighted smoothbores.
I am speaking about NMLRA matches.
If you belong to some local club, then it's your problem if they don't allow them. You should probably lodge a discrimination complaint with the chaplain.
At our podunk club, ya run what ya brung.
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There are matches for sighted smoothbores.
I am speaking about NMLRA matches.
If you belong to some local club, then it's your problem if they don't allow them. You should probably lodge a discrimination complaint with the chaplain.
At our podunk club, ya run what ya brung.
Oh you can shoot your smooth rifle here, as long as you don't cry too much about shooting your smooth rifle against the rifles.
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OK I give!!!! I've looked on the search tab and cant find anything. I must be using it improperly.Anyhow what defines a smooth rifle? Why is it any different than a simple smoothbore? How can something be called a rifle and not have rifling? I'm just a newbie looking for an answer, not trying to stir up any trouble. Frank
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Dave........where in the heck did you come up with that new "handle". I've been looking at it and trying to pronounce
it for 15 minutes............Don
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OK I give!!!! I've looked on the search tab and cant find anything. I must be using it improperly.Anyhow what defines a smooth rifle? Why is it any different than a simple smoothbore? How can something be called a rifle and not have rifling? I'm just a newbie looking for an answer, not trying to stir up any trouble. Frank
Simply a smooth bore, with rifle sights - and so-called "Smooth Rifle" in some orders to gun makers = re-printed and installed in the book "Firearms of the American West 1803 - 1865".
Edited - forgot to mention - some had double set triggers as well. Some were straight octagonal - some swamped octagonal, some ordered as octagonal/round, just as there were octagonal/round barreled rifles.
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FRJ, As already mentioned, a 'smooth rifle' has no rifling but does have a rear sight. If you go through H.J. Kaufmann's book on the Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, you'll see lots of examples of guns with full octagonal barrels, ornate patchboxes, sights, calibers typical of today's rifles (e.g. 45-54)etc that are smoothbores. This in comparison to what's usually referred to today as a smoothbore - octagonal to round or round barrel, no rear sight, fusil or fowler stock, or musket, 62 caliber or bigger.
The NMLRA rulebook draws the following distinctions between a smoothbore and a smooth rifle:
Sighted smoothbore (a.k.a. Smooth Rifle): Sights shall be fixed open, front and rear. No restriction on caliber. Set triggers allowed.
Trade gun or Fowler (a.k.a Smoothbore) : A traditional offhand hunting firearm originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot. Flint lock only. No Set triggers, 28 ga (54 cal) minimum. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel.
The distinction between the two can get a bit fuzzy, which may indicate that the distinction is somewhat unimportant unless you're trying to figure out for a competition what events or aggregates your firearm would be legal in.
Sometime in the last week on one of the forums, I saw a post about a 40 cal smoothrifle that was holding its own with respect to group size out to 75 yards or more. That would indicate to me that any advantage to a rifle over a tradegun/fusil/fowler with respect to accuracy is partially in the rifling and partially in the sighting system. It would be interesting to know how that advantage is distributed betwen the two.
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A smooth rifle will look like any other long rifle on the outside. The barrels were rifle type barrels and heavier built. Patchboxes, sights and DST's as mentioned were more common. A fowler had a thinner barrel single trigger and a often a larger lock. Patchboxes were not as common and they had a different general design, as in a better designed buttplate and butt. Smooth rifles were likely made to be shot with ball and could use shot if desired. Fowlers were made to be used with shot and could use ball if desired. Also more than a few fowlers had rear sights.
DP
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Dave........where in the heck did you come up with that new "handle".
Don,
Many years ago, Shell...in their infinite wisdom, decided we should have an employee of the month program. Each month I had to pick an employee and nominate him/her. They got a personalized nameplate that said "Employee of the Month" and their name engraved on a plaque that hung next to the cash register. They also received a negotiable Sears gift certificate for $25. Employee of the year got $100 and all winners got to attend a banquet. It cost me $1500 a year. Since all my employees were considered equal it became tedious trying to choose someone. I just started saving the gift certificates and handed them out equally as Xmas bonuses.
The 2nd year, I let them make up ficticious names to have engraved on the plaque. They came up with names like Ben Dover and others. Then we decided to try and come up with names that exceeded the width of the space on the plaque. Ole Norb was one of them. We took a lame program and turned it into one that all my employees enjoyed and shared the benefits of equally.
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I worked in a Polish community for a while. Rality exceeds imagination as in Pryblyzski a real name. Also worked in a Bohemian community that never heard of vowels for their names. Kind of like the ball player for the Twins back when Hrbek only they may have used Hrbk.
DP
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Daryl, DP, Thanks for the reply's to my question.
What you describe is more in keeping with what I would expect in the way of performance from the "smooth rifle".
No, my little .40 doesn't print one holers absolutely all the time, but on the average groups are in the 1/2" range at 50 yrds. which still seems way more consistent than you would expect. But if you do your job the gun will produce the 3 shot clusters I mentioned. As I said the gun surprises me every time I take it out for a ride.
I engraved the "Aim Small, Miss Small" on the side plate opposite the lock.....that's probably the secret !
I guess either I'm flinching just right or all that "Jedi" training is finally bearing fruit !!
Thanks again,
Mark
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I have two rifles I can rely upon to shoot 1/2" at 50 yards off bags - with good weather and perfect holding - of course good bench techniques as well. All the rest are closer to 3/4" to 1" all 5 shot groups. Sights make a big difference - I"m finding beads and wide, shallow V sights easier as I get older.
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Are you referring to an African style express sight ?
I do a lot of inlaying gold in the vertical line going to shallow V for the African Hunters.
Mark
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Yes- those are the sights - nothing better for a 14 Bore Rifle - or any hunting rifle for that matter. Sure worked on the 200yards match 2 years ago. Hey - we need more competitors - no more typing about shooting, this year is the time to do it.
I merely used silver bearing high temp solder. Rubbing the line with a patch brightens it if it happens to be dull.
Smooth Rifles are welcome, too.
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This begs a question that I have been wanting to ask and one of the reasons I joined the forum so I could ask it.
I have a .40 cal smooth "rifle" that continually surprises me every time I take it out shooting. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups out to 50 yrds. (that’s the furthest I've put it on paper) One day we were shooting and a friend of mine asked if I would spot for him as he shot at a distant rock, he shot and hit no problem, then he suggested I try it with the little smoothie .40, I pull up, hold dead on, let fly and I hit dead center ! No that’s not right, it’s too far, it must be a fluke! So I try again 3 times and hit 3 times. We laser range the rock at 122 yrds, the rock the size a man’s head. The load is .380 ball, .018 pillow tick patch Balistol lubed, 40 grs. 3f Goex.
Another day we go out and set “coyote gourds”(wild growing gourds here in AZ. that are the size of a baseball or softball) at varying distances and I walk some out a good ways. We start with the close ones and work our way out to the far ones. Again, the .40 is banging away at the gourds busting them up with regularity. We range the far ones at 98 yrds ! The load this day was .375 ball, .020 canvas patch lubed with Balistol over the 40 grs. of 3f Goex. Oh, I should say the barrel is a 13/16 Green River Barrel Works from the early 80’s cut to 37 inches, bore measures .403.
This was one of the first guns I ever built. I rebuilt the gun about 6yrs. ago salvaging the barrel and the lock only. The little gun really holds its own with the rifles.
My question is, what is you all's experience with “long range” accuracy with the smooth “rifle”? Do you find you can hit generally as well as a rifled gun out at distance ?
“ northmn” is right ! the guns are an oxymoron and have a lot more potential than are given credit for.
Mark
Is it "scratch rifled" by any chance?
If I came across a smooth bore that would shoot this good it would be the first thing I checked. This scam was used to win "smooth bore only" matches back in the 19th century.
Many dueling pistols were scratch rifled in early 19th Century England.
I had a 50 smooth rifle that would shoot into 4.5 inches for 5 shots. Cloverleaves? Not with that gun, unless the rifled barrel is put in.
If lightly done scratch rifling is virtually undetectable by the layman and will "shoot almost as well as a rifle for about 100 shots" according to the Warner-Lowe papers that contain the technical details below.
I believe a Vermont Gunsmith named Nicanor Kendall (the papers only name him as Kendall) was the culprit in the "turkey match" where he and the man who accompanied him won all the turkeys.
He had set a barrel up in his rifling machine and used coarse emery to make the "grooves".
Nicanor Kendall was born in 1807 and was one of the original partners who founded Robbins and Lawrence.
Another way to check would be to recover some fired balls that had been loaded sprue up (or marked) and then see how they struck the backstop. If they always hit sprue first its not a smoothbore.
Dan
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Its not "scratch rifled" to my knowledge.
I purchased the barrel back in 1981 or so from 'Green River Barrel Co." It was the outfit that purchased the old "Green River Rifle Works" manufacturing equipment and continued to produce barrels under the "plumb center" trademark. They were one of the first company's to offer a "smoothbore rifle" barrel back in those days. I still have the original catalog
This was the second gun I ever built, pretty crude, and as I said I rebuilt it about 6 yrs ago salvaging the barrel and lock only. The lock is an old DGW Ketland lock, Italian made I'm sure, but the lock performs really nice and is easy on flints. The bore is shiny like a shotgun, I laped it with JB Bore Bright.
Back in my early days we shot to 30, 40 yrds, not much more, the gun always hit well. It's only recently that I have begun to shoot it out at further distances because the rifles were shooting out at further targets. So I've just discovered this guns "peculiarity" and as I mentioned I was curious as to others experience with the accuracy of their "smooth rifles"
I did have a Green River Forge Northwest Tradegun that shot really well out to 75 yrds. Wish i still had that gun.
Mark
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I use the Express sight on my 20 bore smooth rifle barrel as they are great for older eyes with a larger brass bead. I have broken clay pigeons with the combination as the Express sight does not give the same tendensies for trying to "aim" when shooting flying. Green River rifle barrels were also slightly choked and I wonder if your smooth bore may not have a slight choke (it would be about a skeet choke at most). Surprisingly I have read where others using small bore smooth rifles have had pretty good accuracy at close range. A 40 smooth bore could make an interesting squirrel gun as it could be laoded with about 1/2 ounce of shot or so for runners at close range. Also would not be all bad with RB.
DP
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The best shooting, [ round ball or shot ] smoothbore I ever owned was a 28 bore. It's performance in the field was well beyond what you would expect for the bore. I sold it, of course :(
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David - my .44 was the most accuracy ML smoothbore I've shot. As mentioned before, I lapped in a jug choke - about .005" total, starting an inch back from the muzzle. It handled 1/2 oz. shot well, as well as a .433" RB in cloth patch. It would head shoot snowshoe hairs out to 50 yards, no problem. I never 'benched' it at that range. Current owner says he shoots 4" groups offhand at 80 yards with it - I'd have to see that. H emay hav ehit a 4" gong at the range - even more than once.
I hit a bunny gong in the middle at 100 yards with a 20 gauge smoothbore a couple times, but that doesn't mean that that smoothbore shoots a 2" or 3" group at 100 yards.
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I expect a smooth bore can be loaded fairly accurately, but I still do not think that they are a longer range weapon. Sometimes we get carried away on what consititutes a proper level of accuracy for a rifle. Some think a rifle is no good unless it groups a minute of angle at 100 yards, yet a lot of game has been taken with rifles of less accuracy. A smooth bore is not likely to give the same accuracy as a rifle and mine will not. They also have a reputation for going South at some distance. You might get 3" at 50 yards but not 6" at 100. Many that use them do not use sights. Lack of sights is going to create extra problems at longer ranges.
DP
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Back in the "80's (thats 1980's) I ran a "woods walk" for a local club for several years. The targets I used were mostly "hit or miss" steel targets, made realisticaly, IE" the right size and coloring for the object. I didn't have any bright painted targets or round "gongs" etc, I tried to make it as realistic as possible. There were 5 shooters in each group and there was always a group of smooth bore shooters that always finished in the top three and sometimes tied with the rifles. That proved to me that a smoothbore on the eastern frontier was just as effective as a rifle in saving your skin!!!!...Ed
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Some basic Newtonian physics occurs to me: An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by a force. The benefit of rifling is the gyroscopic effect on the ball, the imparted inertia resisting forces that might push it off course.
If we go into the world of abstract physics ("For the purposes of this exercise, let us treat a camel as a perfect sphere on a frictionless surface...") then a perfectly round ball in a perfectly uniform patch in a perfectly uniform barrel fired in perfectly still air would go perfectly straight.
Reality intrudes with flawed materials and wind, but a well cast ball loaded with obsessive care in a clean, smooth barrel and fired on a windless day might carry quite a way before drifting off. Mark noted that he lapped the bore with JB.
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If you watch a round ball fired from a smoothbore, using a pair of biocs or spotting scope for viewing, sometimes you can see it take on a curve like a turmpet's horn, verring off to one side, heading down into the ground, or up at an angle before it disappears from sight or into the ground - at 80 yards or further out is the best place to see this. Other times it just seems to go in a straight line off target, even though the person shooting said it was a good hold. Sometimes it curves onto the target from a line originally heading off.
they are really quite fun to watch sometimes. Much depends on the quality of the casting, sprue, if any and of course, if loose enough to bounce against or off a barrel wall on it's way out (just wads, no patch). I tried just that in my .44 - no patch, just over powder and over ball wads, horrid accuracy resulted even at 25 yards, yet the ball was only .007" smaller than the bore which is quite tight as smoothbore balls usually run, actually. with patches, it would shoot 1" groups easily at 25 yards off bags. This is why I say you cannot tell anything about accuracy loads with a rifle at 25 yards - even smoothbores can shoot 1" groups. Ragged holes only 1" in diameter, with a 20 bore yet.
Much also seems to depend on the speed. The faster the ball is going, the further out they canget before 'problems' with atmosphere or ball send them heading off for who knows where. This is why the US Military thought their .69 caliber muskets should be delivering 1,700fps - to give longer accuracy range - hense the 165gr. charge in the paper ctgs. for charge and priming. Later, when powder quality improved, that was dropped to 135gr. - still a mite higher than most guys shoot in their guns today - I'll warrant. 165 and even 135gr. will kick in a gun not designed for it. Their military guns were not. The 6 1/2 pound carbine of 1847 might have been the worse - perhaps. Many of them had both front and rear sights, even though left as smoothbores after the 1850's swtich to rifling the current muskets for the minnie.
That would make them smooth rifles, wouldn't it.
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Some basic Newtonian physics occurs to me: An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by a force. The benefit of rifling is the gyroscopic effect on the ball, the imparted inertia resisting forces that might push it off course.
If we go into the world of abstract physics ("For the purposes of this exercise, let us treat a camel as a perfect sphere on a frictionless surface...") then a perfectly round ball in a perfectly uniform patch in a perfectly uniform barrel fired in perfectly still air would go perfectly straight.
Reality intrudes with flawed materials and wind, but a well cast ball loaded with obsessive care in a clean, smooth barrel and fired on a windless day might carry quite a way before drifting off. Mark noted that he lapped the bore with JB.
I work on this assumption and feel that one of the big claims about smoothbore inaccuracy is how they are loaded. A ball has a center of gravity. The closer the center of gravity is to the point of aim the more chance one has of hitting the target. They likely drift towards the heavy side. Rifling spins that center so that it forms a cone instead of a line pointed at the target. Also the surface fo the ball can have imperfections that may cause un even air flow. While a rifle will shoot about any cast ball fairly accurate the need for a near perfect ball is mandatory to get a smooth bore to shoot. Many shooters load loose paper cartridges or no patch and use whatever is cast.
Sometimes I think that the high placement of smooth bore shooters in some of these trail walks lies in the fact that they may be better shooters. I ahve seen some rifle shooters at matches taht could just as well shoot a smooth bore. For 100 yard matches I used the 2 foot square 50 yard rapid fire pistol target so some could have a score and try to keep the interest up in shooting.
DP
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If one does not want to look for ball trails with a spotting scope or such then shoot a Daisy "Red Rider" or such down sun and watch the BB take on some weird curves after its out about 15-20 feet.
A lead round ball is little different though patching surely helps.
Shooting steel plates even if cut to the shape of squirrel, for example, is misleading. A hit on the tip of the tail is a hit for score but would not kill the animal if you were hungry.
Slihouette shooting is a wonderful example of this. One shooter shoots 10 rams down and holds a 6" group on the animals. The shooter next to him hits 10 rams but the shots are scattered from the rump to horn to nose to foot maybe a 30" by 24" group. Both get the same score. This is the BS part of silhouette and one of the things that makes it popular with some and frustrating for others.
If the steel targets are all large enough to contain the group of a smoothbore at a given distance the smooth bore may well score as well as the rifles. But they will not shoot as accurately.
In rifle matches as held in Colonial America and the "chunk" matches of today the SB has no chance. Few were offhand.
Like the Kendall "incident" above.
Dan
edit reason....
GEEZ now I'm repeating myself ::)
Between me and dad all I have done this week is go to Dr appointments. Billings twice and Livingston twice . Its a wonder I have not met myself going one way or the other.
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yeah - it happens.
On trail walks, the best smoothbore shooter sometimes match the best rifle shooters at Hefley Rondy. The "Rest of the Story" is told in the bullseye match - where the smoothbores are dismal failures at producing #'s or even 5 hits per target - there are only 3 25, 50 and 75yards. the 75 yard target is the big single bull, buffalo target.
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Sorry to hear about the health problems, their are few minor ones.
A smooth rifle might stand up at 25 yards and maybe 50 in an offhand match. As much as I may like their concept they would not make a X sticks arm. They have their place, and in the East for a person that likes the concept of one firearm and does not shoot matches they give a lot of satisfaction. Mine is accurate enough to use at closer ranges for deer or black bear. One also has to remember that many of the old lever guns that "won the West" were not particularly accurate, especially with factory ammo. Ed Harris tested a couple of older rifles like the model 95 Winchester and got about 4 inch groups at 100 yards. A lot of 94's would be doing good to get that. Many of the smaller bore muzzle loaders start to play hob with the wind at longer range and the 45 round ball is starting to lose a bit of steam at that range. A muzzle loading round ball rifle in a smaller bore will give only about 25 yards of extra practical range over a larger bore smooth bore. You can make hits farther away with one but they are starting to get pretty weak. Is a 45 rifle, which is adequate for deer still adequate beyond 100 yards ??? Some claim they do not like them even at that range. I might be able to ring gongs and such at longer ranges but should I shoot a deer with one? A larger bore like a 54 or so will extend the range considerably but then the iron sight issue also enters in. How far away should one really use traditional iron sights ??? Smooth bores, loaded correctly can give pretty adequate accuracy farther than some give them credit, especially with sights. If a rifle were shot without sights it would not be competitive on bullseye targets either. Out to 75 yards I could score all 5 with the smooth rifle but I would not beat a good rifle shooter on a bullseye.
DP
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Dan's example of patterns vs groups on gongs reminds me of a win I got with a pistol one time when I more or less scattered my shot over the scoring rings. a very good pistol shooter I shot against had a beautiful group with two out sdie the scoreing rings. He like a 6 o'clock hold and the target did not lend itself to his sights. He changed his sights after that as I had problems refraining from commenting about that win.
Pistol shooters moved to a sport called "practical pistol" where speed became important coupled with hits. Bowling pins or "practical" targets like the IPSIC target were used. We had a variation of that theme in a BP shoot and timed how fast one could shoot 4 blocks off a rail with BP revolvers. I could beat the above target shooter with a revolver at that sport pretty regularly. Many would end up with no loads left in their revolvers and have blocks standing. I go back again to what is practical accuracy as compared to bullseye accuracy. Who would be more successful out in the field? Would the smoothbore shooter that hit gongs be more likely to get venison up close over a deliberate rifle shooter ??? Popping squirrels in the head with a rifle is fun but sometimes a load of shot will get those that don't like to stand still. I got a deer with a recurve one time that required a very quick shot before it took off. I shot enough 3-D against compounds to know that they likely would not have gotten that deer. A compound shooter can score better than I can on 3-D and make longer deliberate shots but I still scored well with longbows and recurves deer hunting.
DP
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Hey DP,
You pretty well summarize our experience with snowshoe hares. Day by day as conditions vary, they either hold and allow deliberate head shooting or break wildly before you can glimpse them sitting. With a rifle, the breaking days are hungry days. With a smoothbore I score much more consistently from day to day simply because I'm set for the days when it's all running shots.
My one caveat is that when loading with shot I want a very smooth pattern and clean edges so I can use it to "fringe" the hares rather than centering them if it turns out to be a sitting day.
I still love head shooting with rifles when conditions allow, but love hare meat enough to acknowledge that a smoothbore is certainly the better all around solution. I haven't tried head shooting with .610 balls from a smoothbore, but that would appear to be the next logical step for sitting days.
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Keith, a hunting buddy, with an English rifle in .75 Taylor-made, and my rifle of .69 cal. also Taylor made, went bunny hunting one day. Keith used 40gr. 3F in his .75 and I used 30gr. 3f in the .69. You could actually hear the little bones crunching and breaking as the big balls passed through their little heads.
We, and my little Springer, Foxton's Lady Jessica had a wonderful day.
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BBear- my buddy, with an English rifle in .75 Taylor-made, and my rifle of .69 cal. also Taylor made, went bunny hunting one day. Keith used 40gr. 3F in his .75 and I used 30gr. 3f in the .69. You could actually hear the little bones crunching and breaking as the big balls passed through their little heads.
We, and my little Springer, Foxton's Lady Jessica had a wonderful day.
Man, that does sound like a great day! I've got a 62 cal rifle in addition to the smoothy, and I'm way overdue taking it out. Doesn't matter the size of the hole when you're crunching heads. Of course your ears are better than mine. I barely hear a splat rather than a crunch when they land! ;D
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Sorry to hear about the health problems, their are few minor ones.
DP
Dad (84) got whacked by a guy running a red light in a Fairbanks AK in Sept. So he has been getting his back and neck straightened out due to whiplash etc etc. Lots of miles this winter. Our checkups at the VA happened to stack one day apart this week. But its 80 miles one way.
Dad flys back the AK March 10 so maybe I can get back to the shop a little more and not be running +- 200 miles a week.
Dan
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I've always been curious if a smooth rifle was built that way or bored out later. Seems that I read something somewhere about a traveling boring operation that went from town to town. If there were enough work to make that feasible it seems like a lot of rifles would be converted. Anybody know for sure ?
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I've always been curious if a smooth rifle was built that way or bored out later. Seems that I read something somewhere about a traveling boring operation that went from town to town. If there were enough work to make that feasible it seems like a lot of rifles would be converted. Anybody know for sure ?
Both are HC.
The larger bored guns I consider to be bored out.(?)
By the 1830s having a rifle that was 54 or larger either made that way or from years of use and freshing was impractical. Or the owners eyes started to fail. They bored the old gun smooth and gave it to some kid to hunt with. There are many possibilities.
44-50 caliber smooth probably always smooth. (?) There is a 1/2 octagonal JP Beck in Cody that I assume was made smooth 52 caliber according to the museum.
The Verner rifle is smooth but what it was made as? But its called a rifle right on the patchbox(?)
Your guess is as good as mine as to which rifles started out smooth and which were originally rifled.
For all we know some smooth rifles were rifled later. Who knows?
Dan
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heres a guess,,,,,,, and only a guess. if it has set triggers it started life as a rifle, without set trigger, it could have started as either one??? ideas??? mark
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Dad (84) got whacked by a guy running a red light in a Fairbanks AK in Sept. So he has been getting his back and neck straightened out due to whiplash etc etc. Lots of miles this winter. Our checkups at the VA happened to stack one day apart this week. But its 80 miles one way.
Dad flys back the AK March 10 so maybe I can get back to the shop a little more and not be running +- 200 miles a week.
Dan
[/quote]
I have been going through something like that as an individual went into a skid right in front of me and totaled my car when I tried to avoid a head on. took out the whole drivers side. I am now on heavy doses of pain killer for whip lash. Makes work a challenge.
I noticed in one of my books that smooth rifles seemed to be more common in some areas, like the Allentown region. Would be interesting if any collectors made a connection. Tennessee rilfes do not seem to include many smooth bores for instance. It is surprising how small a load of shot it can take to harvest game. Some also like a smoothbore for safety reasons for hunting squirrels in populated areas.
DP
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According to "Firearms of the American West" smoothbores were VERY popular by about 1825/30 through into the 70's. Aside from the 'surplus military muskets the government sold to civilians and gave to Indians" it was due to the popularity of double barreled percussion shotguns.
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I always thought it would be great to see a slow motion clip of the"roundball in flight", especially one shot out of a smoothie.
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That film would have to be a side-ways film to best show the knuckle-ball effect until the ball took on a spin and careened off somewhere not where the intended target happened to be. That would be most difficult. I wonder how much of the knucke-ball up and down flight is actually there? I know there is a HUGE difference in my .20 bore from 25 yards to 50 yards - it has a 'standard' choke of about Improved Cylinder(.007 or .008") and I cannot get a tighter than 5" group at 50 yards with it. I have shot nice 3" groups at 50 yards with other 20 bores - non-choked and a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards with Taylor's Bess. I'm talkign 5 shots, not just 3 lucky ones. Fliers rule the group- normally. A couple or 3 can be close together with my gun, but then off into the hinterland go the others.
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I wonder if the choke itself affects accuracy as much as the ability to load a tighter patching ??? My 12 bore has a constricted skeet or IC choke that has been reamed out from a full choke. Due to the barrel constriction it is more difficult to load a thicker patch. As the gun only weighs about 6.5 pounds or so I do not shoot a lot of roundball out of it. Some with jug chokes claim little change in accuracy.
DP
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I took a double barreled 12 ga shot gun and put a rear sight on it and sighted the left barrel in for a .715 ball I sighted it for 50 yards and it will knock out the "X" One thing I realized was the ball had to have no voids in it as that will make it chase scenery. So I carefully weighed each one and removed any trace of a sprue then for good measure I put them in a rock tumbler for a couple of hours .Makes em pretty,shiny and black.
I think the problem with a smooth rifle back in the day was that in the wilderness one wouldn't be able to weigh the balls to sort out the light ones so a rifled gun would shoot the light ones better than the smooth rifle under those conditions.
I have a book "The Great Guns"by Peterson and Elman,on page 84 it says in Basel Switzerland in 1605 they had a shooting contest and a separate event for rifles and smoothbores the smooth bores were shooting at a 30'' diameter target at 570 feet This would have been off hand with a wheelock. Wish I'd a been there.
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I wonder if the choke itself affects accuracy as much as the ability to load a tighter patching ??? My 12 bore has a constricted skeet or IC choke that has been reamed out from a full choke. Due to the barrel constriction it is more difficult to load a thicker patch. As the gun only weighs about 6.5 pounds or so I do not shoot a lot of roundball out of it. Some with jug chokes claim little change in accuracy.
DP
This could be true in the modern context. But in the historical context chokes were unknown until the 1840s or so and not used in MLs much even then it seems.
Many English ML shotgun barrels were tapered being smaller in the middle and loose at both ends
So I find it amusing when re-enactors who agonize over materials and sewing stitches have their SB choked.
Many modern "slug gun" shotguns now have rifled barrels.
Dan
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To give my perspective on the smooth rifle subject somewhat. Probably sticking my head in a meat grinder but here goes.
Honestly, from the historical context I see the smooth rifle as something for wannabe types, at least if originally made as such. What I mean is that apparently some that could not use a rifle either from simple inability or bad eyesight still wanted a "rifle gun". It was useless as a rifle but fulfilled some need. Did people laugh at people who carried an obvious fowler as was apparently the case circa 1790s in some western areas?
In some areas, such as Ohio/Kentucky in the 1790s the smoothbore was not very well thought of and as near as I can tell the natives used more rifles than smooth guns. But here we fall victim to the observer.
Many rifles are called guns and guns called rifles etc etc. But shooting at people on a flat boat in the middle of the Ohio with a trade gun? Lots of eastern tribes were very well versed in the rifle.
Then, most people away from the frontier had little use for a rifle.
And.
There have always been riflemen and shooters and gun owners. The rifleman likes accuracy. The shooter may not need a rifle, the gun owner may only have a gun for shooting hogs, militia or shooting the fox in the hen house. While the last two can get by with almost anything that goes "bang" the rifleman cannot.
With this is mind when I see a decked out full blown "rifle" without rifling I wonder why.
If we consider these things, especially someone whose only need is militia duty we begin to understand the numbers of smoothbores. If your only need for a firearm was militia then the cheapest thing that was acceptable was OK. These are the people that are largely useless on the battlefield.
If the farmer is only shooting hogs to butcher or the fox his firearms needs are limited as well.
The man that hunts deer commercially or goes into the woods to scout for the enemy has different requirements and a different, far different in fact, skill set.
The inability of the average recruit to use firearms proficiently in the military context is far from new. It was the reason for the development of the old DCM (Department of Civilian Marksmanship) which due to PC has now become the somewhat emasculated CMP. The DCM was meant to increase the proficiency of people so that if they enlisted or were drafted they had SOME skill because frankly the Military, even the Marines do not do enough training with the rifle even today. In the 19th century rifle practice was nearly unknown in the military.
In my experience many people who graduated basic training as "qualified" really only knew which end of the rifle the bullet out of. But being competent? Nope.
So if we step back in time to Colonial America we will see the same thing. Some folks could use firearms, some owned firearms and some didn't even have one for self-defense.
So when we see a smooth rifle with caving and an engraved box we need to ask a few questions.
How does one compete in a rifle match on Sunday afternoon with a SB?
Was it always smooth?
Was it owned by some rich, near sighted pig farmer who only had if for show? To "keep up with the Jone's"?
Was it bored for shot in 1830 and given to some 10 year old to hunt with? After all a rifle that started as a 44 or 50 in 1775 and was used by a couple of generations as a rifle is now probably 52 to 58 caliber, to big for practical use in many places in the east by 1830. Besides boring it for shot makes it light enough for a boy to use. It might be so large as to make grooving it again questionable so it was bored to groove size (??
Did the owners eyes fail and he had it bored for shot?
Finally. We have a huge number of reenactors who have looked at various documents and decided that SBs out numbered rifles so the can have a SB and be HC. Or they live someplace here rifles were unknown (if not corrected they will stretch this to the Mississippi and beyond) and many of them only use it as costume PROP so it does not even have to shoot to be "effective". So we have what I call the "cult of the smoothbore" which, if they shoot them, attribute all sorts of non-existent advantages to the SB. I put a smooth 50 cal barrel in a rifle I built just because of this. If one's eyes were so bad he could not shoot a rifle I guess it would do to shoot rabbits with shot. But I did not have any 4s or 5s to test it with so I only patterned it with 7 1/2. It did very well at 25 yards with 75 gr volume of shot. This was good since with a round ball it was not very good with light loads and could not see how shooting 100 grs of powder was useful for shooting small game.
Yes there is a lot of supposition here. Yes here were smooth rifles made. But its also supposition to assume that all the rifles with no rifling in Kindig's book, for example, were made this way originally. Or that they are smooth even when so listed.
Dan
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When I read a story on the development of the choke it was claimed that they overchoked their barrels. Forsyth thought he was reaming out the choke and got his full choke pattern when he thought it was reamed out. The claims made on chokes and range at that time were optimistic. I do not know about the development of the jug choke. Today every one seems to think a shotgun has to have a choke to get game. I got a few ducks before the non-toxic laws with a no-choke muzzle loader. That was over decoys. Up to about 30 yards they work OK. When I shot the grouse with my 20 bore smooth rifle it was amazing the number of leaves that flew up in the air around the birds. To say that a smoothbore is "useless" as a rifle is hogwash. They can easily take game out to 75 yards with a roundball. Roundball got two deer with his smooth rifle. Many riflemen have the mentality that to get a deer you have to be able to hit cockroaches at 100 yards (A comment made by Frank Marshall concerning cast bullets) If I had one ML it would be my 20 bore smooth rifle. I have more than one ML so use a rifle for larger game or squirrels. Also, the smoothbore permits one to line up a few ducks or geese and get more than one with one shot. The sights permit a fair shot with roundball and on grounded game like turkeys permits one to center a pattern.
Many of the smooth rifles one sees pictured are smaller calibers. I go back to Taylor's experiences shooting elephant with a 10 bore smooth rifle. He claimed it was easier to clean and accurate enough for its uses. Russel talks about encountering natives using "fusees" in his book Journal of a Trapper which implys that in the earlier days they used the standard trade gun. The rifle was more popular West of the Mississippi because of longer ranges. In the wooded areas a smoothbore commonly is all that is needed. When I competed the one thing that was obvious was that the average person is not all that good with a rifle. I used a 2 foot rapid fire pistol target at 100 yards so taht competitors could have a reasonable score. The handful of good shots kept them in the black. Then there is the fact that some interesting objects were fired out of smoothbores that were not made out of lead.
DP
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Where I hunt there are some beasties ,large Russian hogs that will eat you,so I decided to switch from my Jaeger to my double 12 ga if I could make it shoot well enough. I put a sight on the rib and sighted in the left barrel,the right barrel I keep loaded with 12, 00 buck and 100 ffg. I sighted it for 50 yards and I explained earlier it started grouping like any rifle I ever owned. Problem with this set up is the sight is on the rib which is not directly over the bore and the ball will carry to the right the farther from the gun it is. Well OK I can adjust to this,at a reasonable distance,and have killed deer at 80 yards.
Point is If that old shot gun will do that what would a smooth rifle do with fine sights a set trigger and a shooter,with confidence ,that really wants to know what a smooth rifle will do.
I think we're all birds of a feather here the reason we shoot ML in the first place is to prove we can do it .Smooth rifles are just the second stage in that rocket.
The old fellow that rifled my Jaeger barrel and I had this same discussion years ago he stated that he always wanted to taper a bore on a smooth rifle ,just to see what it'd do
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Dan - although you are undoubtedly a rifleman, you should recall that smooth rifles were ordered from the frontier over and over - seems they were popular with some. See chaper 5 Smoothbores, in Firearms of the American West 1803-1865, starting page 69.
In 1832 Washington Irving endure "many sneers at the double-barreled guns with which we were provided against smaller game: the lads of hte West holding "shot-guns" as they called them, in great contempt, thinking grouse, partridges, and even wild turkeys as beneath thier serious attention, and the rifle the only frie-arm worthy of a hunter".
This chapter also notes that by the end of the '30's, the thoughts on the smoothbore were changing, indeed even during the usual distain for them, " Nonetheless, smoothbores of all types,-- sporting shotguns, military muskets, trade muskets, blunderbusses, and even an occasional smooth-bored rifle"- went West evenint he easrliest years of the fur trade."
The "two-sighted smooth-bore rifle" - shoulder arm of heavy octagonal or 1/2 octgonal barrel equipped with both front and rear sights. The advantage is given in slight range extension of 20 to 25yards over the smoothbore shotgun or musket, handled shot equally and being heavier made, could withstand much tougher use than the normal smoothbores.
There are numerous reprinted 'orders' from the West by businesses or explorers for smooth-bored rifles as well.
Makers Bryan & Morrison, Deringer, Henry and Tryon also made and sold smoothbore rifles for the frontier market. By the 1850's, smoothbores seemed quite popular - on the frontier. The ability of large bored smoothbores to handle buck and ball, along with the proliferation of cheap old muskets sold to the public by the military, must helped their popularity.
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Dan,
It's not reasonable to think that our choices and preferences somehow influence the past. We don't have to like something and agree it was the best choice or most efficient tool for it to have been popular and deemed useful in the past. Arguing that "many (or most) smooth rifles must be bored out rifles" seems a bit like a religious or political view.
Were plenty of rifles bored out to smoothbores? Yes, particularly in the percussion period, and especially after the Civil War. But some basic principles are commonly ignored in these arguments. If you've unbreeched many original guns, whether fowling pieces or rifles, you'll probably note that the breechplugs are usually closer to bore diameter than we see today. Whether this often results from freshing out or not I do not know. But you cannot bore out a rifle from a .44 caliber to a .62 smoothie without re-breeching if the original breechplug was 5/8" or less. If you find a gun that is now 20 ga smooth, it is not plausible to argue it was once a .44 rifle, unless there is evidence of re-breeching. Re-breeching is normally accompanied by setting the barrel back, so there are multiple clues to a re-breeched barrel.
If I see a smooth rifle (smooth today) with a double set trigger and rifle sights, I allow it was probably a rifle and has been bored out. If it sports a single trigger and an octagon to round barrel, it being rifled originally is not likely IMHO. These are features that change the likelihood that it was rifled or not. But even in the east, in specific areas in Pennsylvania, we see very few rifles made that retain rifling. How many Bucks County rifles are there that have evidence of rifling or that have double set triggers? Heck there are some with round barrels and hooked breeches. We can can mock the people who would own such a gun, calling them pig farmers or dandies who probably could not hit a hat at 20 yards, but that does not change evidence one bit.
Painting the "rifle" label on smoothbore, rifle-built guns with no evidence of ever being re-worked is wishful thinking. It really doesn't matter whether they would be good guns to have in Wyoming or Montana or Colorado today or 180 years ago. There are plenty enough double barreled swivel breech rifles remaining with one smooth and one rifled barrel of the same bore, to tell us that some of our forefathers found some utility in small bore smoothies.
"I hate them, therefore they didn't exist, or real men didn't own them" is not a convincing argument.
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There are numerous reprinted 'orders' from the West by businesses or explorers for smooth-bored rifles in the book. (Firearms of the American West)
Makers Bryan & Morrison, Deringer, Henry and Tryon also made and sold smoothbore rifles for the frontier market. These were as noted, straight octagonal, or octagonal/round in the barrel.
By the 1850's, smoothbores seemed quite popular - on the frontier. The ability of large bored smoothbores to handle buck and ball, along with the proliferation of cheap old muskets sold to the public by the military, must helped their popularity.
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I might add that the "freshing" of rifle to smoothbore may have served a purpose in itself. Even if originally rifled, when were they freshed to smooth? A flintlock rifle in original condition that was converted to smoothbore must have been that way for a reason. The weapon is preserved but converted which is a history of its own. One of my uncles from Missouri shot everyhing from quail to deer with a standard hammer break open single shot 16 gauge. It was probably full choked but he got his deer with slugs. I remember when my aunt bought him a 22 from the change she saved out of his pocket when she washed his clothes. A shotgun was a pretty standard item in most rural households. About the most specialized weapon is a larger bore rifle. The Tennessee rifles were commonly made in small bore which would permit a generalized use. Anything over and including a 40 starts to become a gun dedicated to larger game. Even a smaller bore smooth rifle in 45 caliber or so can handle both. At 25 yards a smoothbore will come very close to a rifle in grouping. Even some small caliber smoothbores could pop a squirrel at that range.
DP
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Many of the rifles going West, were purposely .42 cal to .48 cal. They were thought to be normal to be sold in the Western gun shops. There were a few smaller, but .45 cal was an average size, it seems. Of course, heavy game reguired heavier balls. They seemed to appreciate the .45 cal. rifles more than we do today.
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OK
First I did not say there were no smooth rifles. I did not say they were ineffective within their range. I was trying to address what I see as an over abundance of them as survivors today. And ask why they existed in the first place.
Even in the 1830-40s there were "smooth bore only" shooting contests.
In the Warner-Lowe papers, which to my chagrin I have yet to finish reading, there is an account of Nicanor Kendall of "Robbins, Lawrence and Kendall" fame scratch rifling a barrel with coarse emery that he and a friend then used at a "smoothbore only" turkey match to win all the turkeys that were put up.
I would also point out that it has been posted, either here or on a similar site that some rifles listed as "smooth" have faint traces of rifling when closely examined.
The British, when the supply of American rifles was largely cut off during the American Revolution, resorted to rifles made in England but patterned after an early Landcaster rifle to supply the need.
Western Fur Trade smooth rifles.
"Firearms of The American West 1803-1865" pg 355
From Ramsey Crooks (American Fur Company) in response to James Henry trying to sell them smooth rifles:
"We said in ours of July 29 (1840) that smooth bored rifles will not suit us. ... When Indians use a rifle it must be a real one, and they will not carry a smooth bore of such weight so long as they can get a North West gun."
We also have to understand that the western Indians often did not have the mind set that many of the eastern Indians did in using firearms. For them the trade gun was fully equal to the rifle since they apparently considered "medicine" more important than aiming.
While the Delaware, Shawnee, Iroquois, Creeks, Cherokees and others farther west like the Sacs and Foxes were accomplished riflemen the great tribes of the West did not seem to have a full grasp of the technology.
The rifle was apparently used to such effect in the F&I War buy the French allied natives (and friendlies as well) that there was an effort to ban all rifle sales to natives. The ban was never workable of course.
I believe the use of rifles by the Shawnee and others from at least the 1740s was one reason for the larger percentage of rifles on the frontier by the 1770s. The Musket/smoothbore is not an adequate counter to the rifle when used as the natives and frontiersmen made war. Then we have to ask "where did the natives LEARN of the rifle in the 1740s if there were no rifles as some will maintain?
There is an excellent example of WHY the rifle was so important in the west on pg 356 of a party of Sacs & Foxes on the Kansas River in 1854, through the use of rifles holding larger party of hostiles beyond the range of the bows and smooth bores they were armed with.
This strategy worked well in the western prairies it was also used in the east in clearings around fortifications.
So you see my real question is not were there smooth rifles but WHY were there smooth rifles. Why pay for a rifle stocked gun when a Northwest Gun or a cheap fowler with a hind sight installed or even upset into the barrel will work as well at 1/3-1/2 the cost?
There is no logic to it from the utilitarian stand point. UNLESS its more for appearance than utility.
Dan
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I might add that the "freshing" of rifle to smoothbore may have served a purpose in itself. Even if originally rifled, when were they freshed to smooth? A flintlock rifle in original condition that was converted to smoothbore must have been that way for a reason. The weapon is preserved but converted which is a history of its own. One of my uncles from Missouri shot everyhing from quail to deer with a standard hammer break open single shot 16 gauge. It was probably full choked but he got his deer with slugs. I remember when my aunt bought him a 22 from the change she saved out of his pocket when she washed his clothes. A shotgun was a pretty standard item in most rural households. About the most specialized weapon is a larger bore rifle. The Tennessee rifles were commonly made in small bore which would permit a generalized use. Anything over and including a 40 starts to become a gun dedicated to larger game. Even a smaller bore smooth rifle in 45 caliber or so can handle both. At 25 yards a smoothbore will come very close to a rifle in grouping. Even some small caliber smoothbores could pop a squirrel at that range.
DP
I suggest that people make up a small bore smooth rifle and shoot it against an identical rifle at various ranges using a target the size of a squirrels head as a target. The easiest way is to make up a second barrel for a rifle with identical sights. I found in doing this that with loads light enough to be practical for small game the accuracy was not there in a 50 caliber. The accuracy load for the SB barrel was 100+ gr of powder. The accuracy was so poor at 25 yards with lighter loads that it would hit a squirrels head only about 1/3 the time at this distance.
I can and have killed rabbits at 40 yards with a 50 caliber flintlock with head shots. Why 40 yards? Because where I live its often as close as you get. Why would I need or even want a shotgun? If someone can get a 50 caliber SB with 180 grains weight of shot to kill a rabbit at any significant distance I would be surprised.
This is the advantage of the rifle, ECONOMY. Yes its possible to kill a squirrel or rabbit with a smoothbore. But is is as efficient as the rifle. How much powder and shot does it require to kill a squirrel with a smooth bore compared to a rifle of the typical bore sizes for the time. Even in the 1760s traders were complaining the native use of rifles REDUCED powder and lean sales compared to trade guns.
Muskets/trade guns/low end fowlers were cheap, if they were so great as all around hunting guns why would poor people own rifles instead at 3-4 times the cost?
Dan
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Points made, Dan, and well put.
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There have been smoothbores made in smaller calibers. One contributer mentioned a 38 smoothbore with which he took small game. As to rabbits at 40 yards, in the western states one encounters them. Where I am at theres too much brush to see one at 40 yards and have shot a lot of small game at less than 40 feet. One cannot legaly hunt ducks with a rifle and in some states turkeys must be hunted with shot. Shooting at squirrels with a rifle may be hazardous in some populated areas and a shot gun is handier. I also have seen them moving through tree tops where a rifle did not work but where I likely could have gotten one with the smooth bore and shot. It is not that a rifle may be better in some hands and in some areas, it is that it is ridiculous to claim that a smoothbore is "worthless" considering their popularity and the uses many have for them. My 25 is much more economical to shoot than my 20 bore, but if I get nothing with it what good is the economy ???
DP
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The 50 cal rifle is now in a friends possession.
It was plenty accurate enough for deer at 60 yards with the right load. I would bet 100$ it would shoot 5 shots into 4.5" at this distance with 100 gr and it would put 2-3 into a nice group. But the externally identical rifle barrel would shoot a lot smaller with 75 gr and will hit a man sized silhouette at 300 yards even though this is not the accuracy load.
I never tested the accuracy of the heavy SB loads at 25 since its pointless from the standpoint of practicality for small game.
I should have shot it at 100 yards I guess but I just can't warm up to 4-5" groups at 50-60 yards. It answered my question after 3-4 range sessions.
The problem is the inevitable fliers. In my experience they will rise up and bite the hunter.
I have no issue with people using smooth bores. Its a choice.
But I put the 50 sb barrel in the rifle because the accounts I continually read did not match my experiences with SBs in various calibers over the years.
A few years ago I shot a match, a pretty easy one, with a new rifle that was not even fully sighted in using a load that was too light it subsequently turned out. I still outshot ALL the scores in the SB match over the same course even though it was not one of my better days. This after being regaled with a "my SB shoots like a rifle" story by one of the competitors the day before. This fallacy is why I went to the trouble of installing a SB barrel in a completed rifle.
The smoothbore, especially if over 20 bore is very effective for some purposes. The shotgun loaded with buckshot has been a standby for close range and/or poor light "social events". They have used for this in one form or another for centuries. Almost 2 years ago I entered the main gate of the USMC Recruit Depot San Diego. There were two young Marines on the Gate. One with a M16 variant and one with a short barreled semi-auto shotgun since they are virtually in San Diego and border the airport, lots of people right outside the wire. A shotgun is a very logical and perhaps the best choice for checking cars at the gate.
But if the Marine is on patrol in Afghanistan the shotgun is not of much use, its just a useless boat anchor.
While many consider the SB to be very versatile I see it as a limited use firearm. Shooting RBs from a SB is like shooting shot from a rifle.
If people live in the east and they shoot deer from blinds and tree stands at 20-30 yards they could just as well use a pistol and save having a long gun in the stand or blind. Most of the animals I shot this year were at SB ranges. Even though I hunt a lot of open country. I tend to hunt areas that give shots under 200 yards
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FHunting%2FP1000948.jpg&hash=f7f36ff6c41cd524fdf91829e27bb59870208b10)
and it usually works. But even in this piece of state land, which has trees on one side of the creek, shots under 120 are hard to come by.
Though the last shot I had at antelope was 187 yards and I blew it. Forgot to put up the second leaf ::) But it had been a long strenuous stalk that involved running, hill climbing and crawling and the antelope were on the verge of going over a ridge. 1/2 to 1 mile stalks are not unknown BTW and sometimes you gotta run. I LIKE to hunt like this. I could not set in a tree stand or a blind, just as well shoot out a pickup window. But where people live is often a controlling factor.
I have no use for a SB in this context.
I hunt alone and often kill stuff 1/2 to 1 1/2 miles (dumb but I did it last year, hunting was really tough and the hunting God put the deer there...) from the closest point I can drive. So its often a lot of work. Busting my butt for 30 minutes to an hour crawling etc, then missing the shot because I am hunting with a SB because its "cool" is not very satisfying and YES I HAVE DONE THIS but it was a long time ago, relatively, when I thought a trade gun was "cool". So I hunt with a rifle.
My gripe is the shotgun only spring turkey >:( but I don't hunt turkey though I have a tag... Maybe in the fall.
BTW I have shot rabbits in Iowa with 15 grains of powder in a 32 rifle shooting patched 0 buckshot. Hunting brush piles in the grove using head shots at 15-20 ft. Ball just pokes a hole in their head. What would I gain with a SB in this context? Would I be able to shoot something like a fox (worth 10$ in the late 1960s) at 100-150 with my normal load? The rifle will do both, the smoothbore is just a rabbit gun in this context.
For a bear at 30 yards? Brown Bess trumps the 32 rifle every time.
Yeah I have had one of these too, a BB Musketoon assembled by Ron Paul. Shoulda kept that one.
Gotta get to the shop and get the radio on, Rush should be on a roll today given the good news.
Dan
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Dan,
I'm with you on the long range stuff regarding rifles. Up here we used to have (five years ago) lots of pine woods that were thick as the hair on a dogs back. Now all logged off. Even for deer, the shots are usually really long, like 200 yards or more. So that rules the muzzleloader out of the question,smoothie or rifle.
Two autumns ago, I was fortunate enough to draw a moose permit for any bull. I looked hard for a good spot to hunt with my sixty two smoothie but found it very frustrating regarding the huge, and I mean huge logging slashes. So I packed a large centerfire with long range capability.I decided to look at an old haunt of mine that was logged 25-30 years ago. Surprise surprise, moose sign everywhere, second growth pine about 20 foot high.
I sit and call for moose, no brush busting. Called in a nice bull that evening and shot it at sixty feet, with my suppository gun,Yikes! So getting back to the topic, a smoothbore or smoothrifle would have worked excellent at this game , that being short range and thick brush. Smoothies do have their place in the realm of things, just as rifles do.I enjoy the challenge of the single sighted smooth guns.I like rifles too, but the tradegun/fowler is by far, more fun! Using it to it's limited potential is up to the individual,just stay within it's limited boundaries and your good to go hunting with it.
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When one talks of uses you can make a statement for either. Rifles are kind of frowned on for clay target competition which is kind of fun with a smoothbore. I enjoy busting a few clays from my home thrower on occasion. Someday I may have time to get out and shoot a few ducks or a pheasant with a flintlock. My smooth rifle would work as well as a fowler. There are a lot of young deer running around now, but I suspect the season will still be limited this year.
DP
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when one talks of uses you can make a statement for either. Rifles are kind of frowned on for clay target competition whcih is kind of fun with a smoothbore. I enjoy busting a few slays from my home thrower on occasion. Someday I may have time to get out and shoot a few ducks or a pheasant with a flintlock. My smooth rifle would work as well as a fowler. There are a lot of young deer running around now, but I suspect the season will still be limited this year.
DP
A friend of mine used to joke about shooting pheasants and such with the comment "they can FLY?"
Sorry just had to put that in, it was always good for a laugh.
I am fully aware of the shotguns pluses and minuses.
My favorite way of shooting game birds is a 22 pistol. I have killed more game birds with a pistol than with either rifle or shotgun. Be its a 22 RF or 54 flint.
I don't hunt waterfowl and can't shoot game birds with anything but a shotgun or longbow now ::)
But I don't shoot stuff for sport or challenge, I don't fly fish either. I don't think the colonists did either. I know my Dad didn't during the Great Depression. When his father bought him a gun to hunt with it was not a shotgun. It was a SS Winchester in 22 short. Cheap but effective. He shot a lot of rabbits and such with it.
He was a fine shotgun shot as well but only hunted birds with them. He killed enough geese for the whole neighborhood in rural Missouri once with a 97 Win and a Parker double. Whistled to get their heads up then gave them both barrels with the Parker and emptied the 97 into them as then rose from the water. He was not interested in sport.
I know how to feed myself with a smoothbore if I need to but I just consider them too limited in usefulness.
BUT this is personal choice. MY choice is not necessarily the correct one for everyone else.
My initial posting here was to put forth ideas/opinion give my views on the subject of smooth rifles.
Dan
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I might not know a lot about muzzleloaders; but fishing is a different story. With all due respect, the only way to fish in the colonial days was with a fly rod as casting reels did not exist. Read the Orvis books and there are many accounts of rich colonists setting up lanterns on their favorite waters to attract bugs which attracted the bluegills so prevalent in southern waters. And they would "fly fish"(more like "dapping") and hammer them.
arkrivco
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Dapping with dapping flies (English term) is a correct term, adkrivco. I've an English fly tying book with many of the old "Dapping" patterns. Long & very heavy rods (for Salmon in England), with a line the length of the rod or perhaps just a bit longer. Green Hart (apparently) was popular.
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Just for kicks I looked up a history of fly fishing and a reference was made about it in ancient Macedonia. This was a from a book written by a Roman in about 100AD or so. There was another reference to fly fishing in the Mideval times. What I think is interesting is that we seem to attribute the colonists with hunting as a necessity for survival or as a means of adding to the larder. If one looks at the fowlers and other equipment, they seemed to like to go out and have a little fun like we do today. As that equipment was the latest and greatest of the times, they did not go out for the "challenge" like we do today but I am sure a lot for enjoyment. If I add up what it costs to get a fish or a deer today I could likely eat top cuts of steak or lobster for less. Yet I go. I like to hunt wild pheasants but could get by cheaper going to game farms. I wonder about back then ???
DP
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This begs a question that I have been wanting to ask and one of the reasons I joined the forum so I could ask it.
My question is, what is you all's experience with “long range” accuracy with the smooth “rifle”? Do you find you can hit generally as well as a rifled gun out at distance ?
I have one in 5 guage complete with front and rear sights and double set triggers. It seems to shoot fairly straight out to about 100 yards but I have noticed it seems to drift sideways quite a bit at 200. I am not saying that I hit what I was aiming at but that the ball struck more or less in line at 100 and several feet to one side at 200.
It is some years since I have shot the gun partly because I develop a flinch at times and partly because it goes through so much powder and lead. A .935 round ball weighs roughly 3 oz. (1200 grains)
cheers Doug
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Worth mentioning that I have seen several trade guns with a rear sight chopped into the barrel with a cold chisel and a small notch in the center of the fin of metal that was lifted up. They must have been used as smooth rifles at least part of the time or they would not have had a rear sight
cheers Doug
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I hold that the larger the ball, the greater the accuracy potential. Being able to utilize or prove that potential is another thing. We know that some fairly accurate long range shooting was done and has been done with 3" and larger cannons, much better than could be done with a musket at the same range, ie: 1,000 yards, therefore the bore size 'potential' statement.
We had a fellow hit a steel plate at 140yards with a 20 bore smoothbore - aimed right at it and used 140gr. of 2F - straight luck? Probably, but he hit it and if somone was going to hit it, it would be him. His normal 'trail' scores usually beat most of the rifle scores on the same course of fire.
He and the the fellow who always 'tests' him beat all the rifle scores on a metalic silhouette course of fire, to 100 yards.
Since the question was is a smoothbore as accurate over the same ranges as a rifle - not a chance - ever, even at 25 yards, yet a smoothbore will shoot an inch at 25 yards. A smoothbore just won't hold that ratio of accuracy at 50 yards or further, whereas a rifle can. An inch at 25, is 2" at 100 & I daresay NO smoothbore can do that more than once on an absolutely lucky day. 2" is about twice the size of many of the groups I've shot from my favourite rifle at the same range - it usually runs 1" to 1 1/2" for 5 shots on a calm day.
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Even ML cannons were rifled toward the end of that type of artillery use. A smoothbore has its place, but if you are shooting at any distance the rifle is better. One reason I mostly deer hunt with a rifle is that I get more than a few shots over 75 yards. I have started to change my hunting style, as I have gotten deer with traditional bows, but it is easier when I can set up where I can see farther. I could still on a open shot be prety confident of getting deer consistantly with my smooth rifle, BUT, I am very particular about loading it. I double check the ball and weigh them, and load with the parting line from the mold up. I am going to mark the mold and use that for an index. It is a short started load and I am careful about not damaging the ball. In my 58 rifle, at 75 yards I could load about any ball casted with finger pressure and get similar results to the smoothbore.
A good rifle shot, with a smaller bore rifle, as in up to and including a 45, could if laws permitted, live off the land very comfortably. I have shot grouse in the head during deer season with deer rifles. Same for rabbits. But laws permitting, I have also played with large shot like BB shot, and have found it to be effective also. I have known of poachers who have taken deer with duckloads by shooting them in back of the head at close range. In the Rainy River area, they have claimed that many NWTG's were found loaded with shot. Many were dug out of the river which may have meant waterfowl hunting, but the Natives using them were also hunters of opportunity. I also suspect that a few fur bearers were taken with shot loads as they do not tear up pelts so badly and a few deer. Probably hunting out of birchbark canoes, which is also why they were found in the bottoms of the river as they are a bit tippy. As we also have moose in the area round ball were used from the NWTG's on them and deer. A large number of NWTG's had rear sights of sorts fashioned. Rear sights are not all bad for shot either. Considering that the local Anishinabe drove the Lakota out of the Nortern regions of Minnesota in 1790 the NWTG had that type of use also. Dan has commented on Native use of rifles, but evidence is overwhelming that in the Great Lakes region, the natives used trade muskets. One consideration, however, is that it is possible that NWTG's were a sort of starter weapon for some and as they were able to accumulate wealth, like we do, some may have moved up to trade rifles also. The fur trade was such that what was desired was what was made available. A NWTG cost 20 beaver pelts. A rifle??? Still once a firearm was acquired it was easier to then harvest more pelts for trade.
When one looks at the role of the smoothbore in the Great Lakes region, once appreciates its versatility as used by a people that truly lived off the land. As I ahve stated, if I ahd one ML, it would likely be a smoothbore with sights, probably wither a 16 or 12 bore.
DP
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The folks here who win matches with smoothbores against rifles, win because they are better shots than the rifle guys/gals. If they used rifles, they'd win with higher scores. I never claim that my NE 10 bore is more accurate than my .40 or .54 or .62 rifles. It is however, accurate enough for my purpose of hunting here , where a 25 yd shot is more often the rule. I use it 'cause I like it, and it works. If I need the range, I will take a rifle. That's the reason I built my Edward Marshall Chamber's .62 cal for moose hunting. By summer's end, I hope to have it worked out for up to a 200 yd shot [ maximum }which is possible, though unlikely in our area.
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I love my smoothbores. That said first ! Putting things in context, if off alone in a survival survival situation, I'd pick a shotgun for defense.......but re: eating , a .22 RF rifle would keep me well fed. One brick is 500 rounds, and it takes up little space. Here is an example. My great Grandfather, Great Uncle, homesteaded in N.W. Ontario
[ Vermillion Bay area ] Woods, lakes etc. They owned 30-30 's and .22 RF. Never owned a shotgun.
Moose, bears were usually taken with the 30-30 but everything else was .22 That included ducks and geese ,partridge, beavers, etc. Life was pretty tough, and I sstill remember as a kid how hard it was to get my Uncle to take a day off and take us fishing. If he went, it was to get fish, and that usually involved a net ;D
When it was time for a moose, he went and got one. With as little fuss as possible, which meant from the boat in one of the bays close to home. When I think about subsistence living, I remember my relatives just trying to make do.
Now, move over to the prairies...my other side of the family were out in Manitoba. Different county, no moose there but lots of deer, and birds galore. They did have a shotgun and used it for birds , fox and deer, but they still had and used .22RF a lot. [ even deer if the opportunity came up ] Funny thing, because you'd think that being open space and all, they'd choose the rifle, but the deer held in the stands of woods, or creek/river bottoms so long shots weren't a real issue.
Picking one gun only sure sucks !!!!!
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Gentlemen,
Last winter I finished a Peter Berry .56 smooth rifle and have been using it off and on. It is a very useful firearm but with some caveats.
For shooting small game I would much rather use a small caliber rifle. If I'm close enough to reliably kill with shot I can easily make the same shot with a rifle. I find that the smooth rifle shoots a single ball reliably out to fifty yards, but here in the West that can be a real disadvantage when hunting big game.
For carrying as protection against nasty varmints I load it with a single ball. The theory of using buckshot against bears is a fine theory but flawed in actual use. If one is close enough to a bear for buckshot to be effective, you can easily make the same shot with a ball which is much more of a "stopper". I think buckshot would be useful in dealing with bad folks...but not much good for anything in the game fields.
Where I find the smooth rifle to be useful is loaded with a single ball when on a scout, not necessarily hunting. It has good knock-down at close range, comes quickly to the shoulder, is quick to reload and very light to carry. I suspect that this was much of the attraction for smooth rifles in the old days. Folks went armed for many more reasons than just hunting...and still do.
Rather than the smooth rifle being an "all-around" utility firearm, I consider it to be a purpose-specific gun. I'll keep and use the .56 Berry but for general hunting I will rely on a rifle.
Steve
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Taylor has a smoothrifle to make - 37 or 38 bore, I think - 56" bl. - should be fun to shoot.
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Taylor has a smoothrifle to make - 37 or 38 bore, I think - 56" bl. - should be fun to shoot.
The fun to shoot part is what counts. If one has no use for shot loads then a rifle is better. What gives a smoothbore its versatility is the ability to use either ball or shot. The fun to shoot part is that I can shoot stuff that flies through the air with the smoothbore as well as on the ground. Pheasants getting up in front of a bird dog or ducks decoying have an appeal to me. More so than rifle hunting, but that does not mean I do not enjoy a good squirrel hunt or deer hunt, just that I enjoy wing shooting. That makes a smooth rifle more versatile and not a "special purpose weapon"
DP
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How much shot would you use in an unchoked 38 to 50 caliber smooth rifle for ducks, or pheasants for that matter? Given the fact that many smooth rifles were, naturally, stocked as rifles and generally had rifle weight barrels just how useful WERE these guns for flying birds where quick handling is important?
Most smooth rifles were rifle bore size and as such were not much over 50-52 caliber and often smaller, this is not a very good shotgun bore size.
The ONLY time a smooth bore can "out shoot" a rifle in a match is if the range is short, the targets are fairly large "hit or miss" and the rifle shooters are unskilled. If you shoot paper and MEASURE from center to get a score its simply not going to happen in a 10 shot match or even a 3 or 5 shot match. Its remotely possible that on a given day at 30-40 yards shooting three shots a smoothbore might accidentally shoot a group small enough to beat a rifle. But doing it consistently? Not going to happen.
The smoothbore is only economically feasible when shooting birds ON THE WATER where one shot will kill a number of birds. Other than than this its a massive waste of powder and lead for killing small game and useless for larger game with which it is less efficient than the rifle. Remember that they did not kill a massive number of rabbits, for example and freeze them. Game of this sort was shot as needed. Killing two rabbits aday with a rifle will take less powder and lead than a shotgun. Turkeys" they shot them with rifles too. Squirrels? Deer. Etc???? This economy, as I have noted a number of times, was noted in the 1750s-60s.
In the historical context the average American in the 18th or 19th century seldom hunted simply for sport. This was the recreation of the idle rich.
Now if one IS shooting for "sport" then the shotgun is a good gun. Its kinda like fly fishing.
We cannot get inside the heads of the people who used smooth rifles. We cannot even determine how many smooth rifles, as a percentage of the total survivors, were made as such.
My disagreement is not with the smooth rifles existence. Its with the myth that they are such wonderful multi-purpose guns when in reality they are actually less versatile than the rifle. Which is why the small bore ML rifle hung on far longer than the the ML shotgun did. The ML shotgun, as it was used the the time frame we generally concern ourselves with was not all that effective due to the lack of a choke or any kind.
If the smooth bore was the best option why did poor people in the western Colonial Frontier, who needed a firearm for personal protection and subsistence, apparently have more rifles per capita than the more affluent people farther east? Why did the rifle companies of the American Revolution come predominantly from the west?
The smoothbore was not even a particularly good weapon of war as it was waged by the Native Americans and Frontiersman. This was also known and noted by the middle of the 18th century.
But this has also be noted before with citations.
To this day the shotgun, the modern evolution of such, is inferior as a "survival" weapon to even a 22 RF pistol in the hands of a good shot.
The 22 rf took the place of the 28-36 caliber ML "squirrel" rifle of the 19h century. Effective and cheap to shoot.
In the earlier times the bore sizes were generally bigger average was likely in the high 40s, 48 maybe circa 1776. Still small enough to head shoot small game or easily take larger game. A 45 caliber rifle is an effective 50 yard deer rifle with one grain per caliber of powder. Probably farther but I KNOW its good at 50 yards. Find a smoothbore that has a bore large enough to be really useful as a shotgun, like for pheasants or ducks, then see if it will kill deer with 130 grains of lead and 45 grains of powder.
Dan
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One factor that is often forgotten....not all settlers or anyone else for that matter, were decent shots.
If a fox is coming around after your chickens, you don't want to miss , especially since you've got only 1 shot ! That alone may account for some of the popularity of the " shot" rifle. My Uncle's pick for foxes etc coming around the farm in Manitoba was a load of BB's
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Gentlemen,
I will agree that if one is an indifferent shot with a rifle and the ranges are short, then a smooth rifle charged with BB's is probably a wise choice. Also, in heavily populated areas, where even a round ball has more range than is prudent, loading with shot would be good. Here in the West those situations are the exception, and not the rule. That being said, I am contemplating taking the Berry .56 to New Zealand on my next visit as where I would be hunting, 40 yards is a long shot. The lightness of the Berry would be welcome when making a long hunt in the New Zealand bush.
I wonder how many smooth rifles started out as true rifles and were reamed out the final time, after many re-cuttings, then handed to Ma loaded with shot for defense of the chickens? Those old Germans never threw anything away and this might explain many seemingly contradictory features of smooth rifles, especially those with set triggers.
Steve
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Well, here is a perfect example for us. My neighbor up the road a piece called to tell me I might hear a shot, but it's him, so not to worry. Seems he has a varmint coming around, and he missed it 8 TIMES ! :o this evening with his .22
He's gonna " get serious " and get out the shotgun. Back in the 118th C eyes didn't get better with age anymore than they do now, so I expect that more than a few rifles got bored out for just that same reason.
:)
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A rifle caliber smoothbore as in 40 or larger can handle over 1/2 oz of shot, ala a modern 410. while I do not use a 410 or own one, they have taken a lot of game. Rilfe shots brag that they can shoot a grouses head off, yet get one walking through the brush and a smoothbore works better. I have done both. Same for a squirrel that will not sit to be shot with a rifle, where a quick snap shot is needed when it pauses to jump from one branch to another. The rifle is a very specialized weapon for most. My 58 is a deer rifle and gets used for that purpose. I might pop a grouse in the head with it during deeer season but would not carry it for that purpose. My 25 is a specialized rifle. The 45 was a good all around rifle for wmall game and deer in a way, but was kind of limiting. A smaller bore smoothbore as in 45 caliber or so would permit a wider variety of uses and could use probably 5/8 oz of shot or so effectively, which will knock down a flyng grouse, permit head shooting one while they are walking away as to getting ready to fly, squirrels that do not want to set still and with round ball a deer. For an Eastern hunter a rifle only is rather limiting. And as been stated before, not all people are that great a rifle shot. From what I saw at matches there would be 60 people shooting but only competition between about 4 shooters.
DP
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DP,
What ranges are you getting reliable patterns at with the smooth rifle, and at the risk of this being already done on another thread, what load? I'm seeing a lot of variation on technique for shot loads.
Thank you,
Steve
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I have found this to be a great discussion and enlightening. Why? Because I am considering getting a 54 cal smooth rifle soon.
I already own a 50 cal rifle and a 62 cal fowler. I can provide antedotes why the smoothbore is better or why the rifle is better.
Last year I killed a nice 4 x 5 whitetail with my rifle - however, I could have killed the deer with my smoothbore too - because he was about 20 yds away and I killed a deer the year before at 60+ yds with my smoothbore. So, in this case whether it was a rifle or smoothbore would likely have been a moot point.
Last year I killed two turkeys in the span of a couple minutes (at the most) with my rifle - yes, it is legal to use a rifle here in TX in the fall season. That I may not have killed with my smoothbore (because they were shot in the head and neck at 60+ yds).
Here the rifle, was the only real choice - and although I may have taken the shot with my smoothbore (I was deer hunting so I would have loaded a PRB anyway) I am not sure the outcome would have been the same - and probably unlikely that I could have put a PRB on such a small target with no rear sight at 62 and 65 yds respectively - TWICE!
I have in the past held my own with rifles in trail walks and even in paper target shooting (before I had my rifle and all I shot was my smoothbore) I was 2nd in a local shoot against some very good rifle shooters - my score and the score of the 1st place shooter were the same (except for he had an X and I didn't) and I was shooting out to 75 yds.
That all being said - I will probably still have a smooth rifle made - because I can and I think they are neat.
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Heh, heh, heh - love it.
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My smooth rifle is a 20 bore and I only load it with about 70 grains measure of shot/powder. It patterns reliably out to maybe 25-30 yards as it is a cylinder bore. In the grouse woods of Northern MN 30 yards is a very long shot and most are taken somewhere at 20 or less, give or take. I only carry overpowder card wads with me and load one over the powder and split one thin for over the shot. If lubrication is needed for continued shooting I load a overshot thickness wad and then a thin lubricated fiber wad as in no more than 1/4 inch. I also use #6 or #5 shot as I have had bad experiences with the fine stuff. I played with BB shot once as GGGGranddad used heavier shot and found it to be interesting and effective. That is what they used to call "duck shot".
With round ball I get very meticulous as I believe there is a mentality that says "good enough for a smooth bore" which should be "good enough for a rifle" as a rifle will perform with less meticulous loading fairly well. I am talking about the ball/patch combo. Powder can be measured. The old trick on a walking grouse or a squirrel with a shotgun is to aim at the top knot of the head or the tip of the nose. You get less shot in the body that way, kind of half pattern them.
DP
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I have found this to be a great discussion and enlightening. Why? Because I am considering getting a 54 cal smooth rifle soon.
I already own a 50 cal rifle and a 62 cal fowler. I can provide antedotes why the smoothbore is better or why the rifle is better.
Last year I killed a nice 4 x 5 whitetail with my rifle - however, I could have killed the deer with my smoothbore too - because he was about 20 yds away and I killed a deer the year before at 60+ yds with my smoothbore. So, in this case whether it was a rifle or smoothbore would likely have been a moot point.
Last year I killed two turkeys in the span of a couple minutes (at the most) with my rifle - yes, it is legal to use a rifle here in TX in the fall season. That I may not have killed with my smoothbore (because they were shot in the head and neck at 60+ yds).
Here the rifle, was the only real choice - and although I may have taken the shot with my smoothbore (I was deer hunting so I would have loaded a PRB anyway) I am not sure the outcome would have been the same - and probably unlikely that I could have put a PRB on such a small target with no rear sight at 62 and 65 yds respectively - TWICE!
I have in the past held my own with rifles in trail walks and even in paper target shooting (before I had my rifle and all I shot was my smoothbore) I was 2nd in a local shoot against some very good rifle shooters - my score and the score of the 1st place shooter were the same (except for he had an X and I didn't) and I was shooting out to 75 yds.
That all being said - I will probably still have a smooth rifle made - because I can and I think they are neat.
You are missing a key point here. Yes I kill deer at smooth bore ranges as well at times. The SB can be made to work. BUT what is the ADVANTAGE to shooting deer with a SB? How is it better? These are the questions that need to be asked.
The smoothbore can to some extent be used as a rifle. But its poor choice for shooting solid shot.
The turkeys you shot are a classic. The smoothbore simply would not do this reliably with a ball and would not do it at all with small shot unless they are modern super tight choked shotguns.
The point being that unless shooting at flying birds or punt gunning waterfowl there is no technical advantage to the shotgun. The smoothbore to be truly useful as a shotgun needs to be a larger bore than the rifle. So no matter how its used it requires more powder and lead than a rifle for the same amount of food obtained. As previously stated one of the reasons given in the 1760s for NOT selling rifles to the natives was that they used less powder and lead and as a result reduced profits.
People use them now for a number of reasons. They are documented, though I believe smooth rifles are over represented in surviving "rifles", people like being different and think its "cool". All these are valid reasons and I cannot disagree. My disagreement arises when the "superiority" of the smoothbore is claimed.
If shooting solid shot its still an unnecessary handicap that is a the shooters choice.
If you want to make "full use" of the SB then at least 2 different types of projectiles need to be carried. Shot, balls, wadding, patches... Then it will likely be loaded with the wrong projectile at any given time if foraging. I can shoot a grouse with a rifle but shooting deer or elk with birdshot is pointless.
Being required by F&G laws for some uses is not a marker of superiority, its invariably a handiicap imposed to make hunting more "sporting" or reduce the maximum range of projectiles. Its easy to pick off enough Sharptails for a family sized pot of grouse and noodles or dumplings with a pistol. But its not legal here. Spring turkey does not require a shotgun because its easier to kill birds this way, its a handicap that actually makes the hunting more difficult.
I keep thinking of an account from a Frenchman's Journal circa 1700 that was cited during a similar discussion on another board IIRC. They found turkeys roosted in a tree. Fired a number of shots with their SBs and were finally able to frighten the birds into flight. Never did down one. Now that the heck good did this do other than alert everyone in earshot and lighten their load of ammunition and miss a turkey supper.
One man with a rifle could have killed all the birds they needed... But they have the far more "useful and versatile" smooth bore... Heh heh heh!
ONLY HITS COUNT
Supper on the trail back when I packed horses and guided hunters. 50 caliber ball at low velocity from rifle or pistol just pokes a hole in a grouse with virtually no meat loss. What would I gain with a smoothbore? Other than biting into bird shot?
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Dan
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As for that grouse, a high velocity .32 is better, Dan - you don't have to clean the grouse after a hit in the middle - the ball does it for you - some meat might be lost, of course.
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As for that grouse, a high velocity .32 is better, Dan - you don't have to clean the grouse after a hit in the middle - the ball does it for you - some meat might be lost, of course.
I used to hunt squirrels with 32-36-40 calibers.
With a load in the 30-40 grain range they will cut a fox squirrel in two with a body shot. Head shots decapitate.
Dan
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I read an article on squirrel hunting where the author proposed that the "best" squirrel gun was a 20 bore single shot, full choked. With that he stated he probably could get the most squirrels. I cannot necessarily disagree as I could have gotten more squirrels with a smoothbore and shot, especially walking. I use a rifle mostly because it is more sporting. When I carry the squirrel rifle or deer rifle I also seem to get some gimme flying shots at grouse. Having shot in the gun could make a difference between the economy of a rifle and no game or a little less economy and a grouse or squirrel.
There is also a difference in hunting styles that can make a difference. Many Western hunters keep their feet firmly planted on the floor boards of their pickup (in the older days their feet firmly planted in stirrups) and drive till they see game and get out and stalk it or shoot it. We have a lot of "road" hunting in Minnesota for grouse and pheasant. The opportunites offered for this type of hunting are different than for someone walking the woods especially for birds. I could have shot a lot of pheasant off the road with a 22 as well as grouse. Walking trails or pheasant cover mostly they are flying. Unfortunatley last season for grouse I would walk my tail off and then get a grouse while driving home, off the logging roads.
Carrying a smoothbore loaded with shot is no different than carrying a 50 loaded light. Neither is appropriate for a larger animal. If you carry a pistol as an alternative then you can carry shot and a heavy loaded pistol. Another issue.
A true smooth rifle is not really a wing shooters gun but something more in the line of a squirrel, rabbit, grouse ground getter and a large game gun. They would also work if one could get close to a duck pond and swat ducks. Were I to pick a true all around gun it would be a 12or 16 bore fowler with rudimentary sights. In my area, no rifle would be as versatile. But a fowler is not a smooth rifle.
DP
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I read an article on squirrel hunting where the author proposed that the "best" squirrel gun was a 20 bore single shot, full choked. With that he stated he probably could get the most squirrels. I cannot necessarily disagree as I could have gotten more squirrels with a smoothbore and shot, especially walking. I use a rifle mostly because it is more sporting. When I carry the squirrel rifle or deer rifle I also seem to get some gimme flying shots at grouse. Having shot in the gun could make a difference between the economy of a rifle and no game or a little less economy and a grouse or squirrel.
There is also a difference in hunting styles that can make a difference. Many Western hunters keep their feet firmly planted on the floor boards of their pickup (in the older days their feet firmly planted in stirrups) and drive till they see game and get out and stalk it or shoot it. We have a lot of "road" hunting in Minnesota for grouse and pheasant. The opportunites offered for this type of hunting are different than for someone walking the woods especially for birds. I could have shot a lot of pheasant off the road with a 22 as well as grouse. Walking trails or pheasant cover mostly they are flying. Unfortunatley last season for grouse I would walk my tail off and then get a grouse while driving home, off the logging roads.
Carrying a smoothbore loaded with shot is no different than carrying a 50 loaded light. Neither is appropriate for a larger animal. If you carry a pistol as an alternative then you can carry shot and a heavy loaded pistol. Another issue.
A true smooth rifle is not really a wing shooters gun but something more in the line of a squirrel, rabbit, grouse ground getter and a large game gun. They would also work if one could get close to a duck pond and swat ducks. Were I to pick a true all around gun it would be a 12or 16 bore fowler with rudimentary sights. In my area, no rifle would be as versatile. But a fowler is not a smooth rifle.
DP
One does not HAVE to load the 50 light. The only time I shot grouse with a RIFLE I was in elk camp. I pulled the load and shot the grouse with light loads to REDUCE THE NOISE LEVEL. If I were simply feeding myself with no care for noise I could simply shoot the bird in the head with the full load. But its NOISY and with a camp full of paying elk hunters I did not want to make a lot of racket.
A 50 caliber rifle with 20 grains may not shoot well enough for head shots but it will not destroy the bird with body shots and is very low noise.
I had the same rifle with me when I shot the grouse in the photo but a rifle is harder to clean than a pistol.
I typically carry a FL pistol for back up and have shot a number of grouse with them over the years. I have actually tested a 54 rifled pistol with shot loads. Loaded right it will pattern well enough at 15 yards or so to kill grouse. BUT since I had previously killed grouse with the pistol with HEAD SHOTS at similar distance why would I screw around with shot? I carried it for a big game backup and "personal security" shot is useless in this context. Using shot wold convert the multi-use pistol that I could shoot anything with into a limited use "specialty" firearm good for only one thing. This is OBVIOUS to anyone who actually thinks past how "cool" smooth bore are.
The poor shot is better off with a shotgun. I used to hunt squirrels with a ML. Being a ML with one shot I never fired unless sure of my target and I figured 30-40 yards was about as far as I would shoot. I used to watch squirrels get way when they did not offer a head shot. I would still kill more squirrels than my 22 armed Cousins.
I could have killed more with a tightly choked 20 gauge I suppose but I have too much pride to shoot squirrels with a shotgun.
Dan
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Dang, those squirrels look tasty!
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You guys actually eat Brush Grizzlies?(tree rats?)
Dan P, Come up to Heffley Creek this summer. There are several guys who shoot their trade guns and fowlers as good as any rifleman. These are all offhand shoots,on a trail. It is very hard to get in the top five with a smoothie here. Lots of practice. I got a third last year with a trade gun, an off hand paper shoot. (I hate shooting paper) Yes, we know the capabilities of a rifle far exceed the smoothie but...fowlers and their shooters are the most fun!
Here's a full two thumbs up to the gents like Lorne,Phil,Les,Jim,Ken,Tom,Stan,DogWater,RePhil,Thor. Top drawer smoothie shooters and top notch gents.High 5 ,LOL, to ya all! et tu Fillburt!...what a nut!
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The locals where I live do not eat your brush grizzlies as much but my mothers side relation from Missouri went in for them big time. They had the fox squirrels, but greys are also good. I remember my father telling about pulling a piece of squirrel meat off the platter and it was looking back at him. He traded the head for another piece with one of my uncles. Squirrel head is a delicacy in some places and is another reason some take them with a scattergun. I eat squirrel but waste the head when I clean them.
DP
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Squirrels are best served with dumplins .I use a .25 flinter with 10 gr 3f It doesn't mess the meat up or make a loud noise. I don't like biting into pellets. I can shoot forever on a pound of powder and lead.Besides it's cute
I think at the distances one would shoot at a squirrel a smooth bore .25 would be interesting
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You guys actually eat Brush Grizzlies?(tree rats?)
Dan P, Come up to Heffley Creek this summer. There are several guys who shoot their trade guns and fowlers as good as any rifleman. These are all offhand shoots,on a trail. It is very hard to get in the top five with a smoothie here. Lots of practice. I got a third last year with a trade gun, an off hand paper shoot. (I hate shooting paper) Yes, we know the capabilities of a rifle far exceed the smoothie but...fowlers and their shooters are the most fun!
Here's a full two thumbs up to the gents like Lorne,Phil,Les,Jim,Ken,Tom,Stan,DogWater,RePhil,Thor. Top drawer smoothie shooters and top notch gents.High 5 ,LOL, to ya all! et tu Fillburt!...what a nut!
I think about coming up but going through customs always gives me the creeps.
Smooth bores only work against rifles on large hit or miss targets. Try shooting string measure at 50-60 yards. It is a better measure of accuracy than even a ring target but scoring is far slower. The rifle that shot the 11+ string this month shot a 3.5" 10 shot string last summer but the wind was more cooperative.
I understand steel plate targets. I shot BPCR silhouette for years. Its possible to shoot a 6-8" group on a ram at 500 meters and be tied with a guy that made 1/2 his hits scattered on edges from horn to hock but managed to tip the same number of targets. Under the rules one can even miss the target, skip a shot in or hit the stand. If it falls over before you shoot your next shot at the next target it counts. I once spotted for a shooter (a future nat. champion who resided in Kansas) who got 3 pigs by hitting the pipe the stand was welded on and the pigs toppled "slow falls" they are called.
So I don't buy the steel target thing as a measure of how well the gun or shooter really performs.
BTDT too many times. Shooting steel targets is an instant gratification, feel good sport. Its fun. BTDT too.
As I have stated before the only reason to shoot solid shot from a smooth bore is because someone wants to. Its not because it shoots as good as a rifle. Its because its something some choose to do.
I don't care, people should shoot what they have fun with. I went through a "smooth bore" phase once but won't waste my time now. I got over the "its cool" thing after missing a couple of animals I could have killed with a rifle that I worked pretty hard for. Then there was the trade gun match at the Rendezvous ::)
I would bet that a good shot with a rifled pistol can do as well or very near it as the SBs on the trail targets.
But if you make a match too tough or shoot for too high a stakes only the hardcore shooters show up. I understand this as well. If you have a lot of SB shooters then they will have to be catered to. But this means acknowledging that a smooth bore will shoot groups about 4 times as large as a rifle at 50-60 yards.
Does this mean I denigrate the skills of the SB shooters, no. But we need to be real here. Its only possible for SB shooters to out shoot rifle shooters if the rifle shooters are unskilled or if the match is contrived to allow it. This is simple fact.
There is a standing invite for anyone to come to the Cody, WY ML match, 1st Saturday of the month. If its turkey you can shoot 60 yards rest or 35 OH. Chuck match is all rest at 60.
We shoot these because they are traditional rifle matches.
Its a way to keep the past alive.
So have the smooth bore shooters come down if they shoot as well as any rifle. Usually costs 15 bucks for 10 shots usually done by 2 pm of so. Start at 11AM.
Dan
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Yo sold me...I'm getting a smoothbore ;D
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Guns are tools use the tool that fits the purpose
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Don't force it...just get a bigger hammer!!