AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Paddlefoot on October 19, 2008, 11:32:38 PM
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I have seen a number of discussions on this for bigger game and noticed a few comments for squirrels but what would you sourdough woodsmen call the smallest acceptable caliber for whitetail? Best overall for them. Not worried about Griz in the area or any of that.
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Each state specifies a minimum and maximum caliber. I would be reluctant to use less then a .45 RB, but I prefer the .54. I don't believe that here in KY we can use a RPG. ;)
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It seems that quite a few states allow 40 as the smallest but I always thought it a bit light for deer. I have a 40 that shoots great but always thought of it more as a small game gun.
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.45 was the original bore size I picked for my longrifle as I figured I'd hunt with it, sooner or later, deer being the quarry. This calibre was a toss-up between my preferred preference of .50 and the .40 I really wanted on the longrifle. The longrifle how has a .40 barrel on it, but if going hunting for deer, the .45 was a 5 minute barrel change & 5 min. hunting bag change. I now have a .50 cal Canoe gun for deer so the .40 barrel will pretty much stay on the longrifle now.
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It would be hard to beat a .54 or a.58 for deer sized game. I like to use a larger cal ball to produce a larger exit wound and resultant blood trail. It makes a well hit deer easy to find. I have had deer, well hit , killed with small calibers (.45) that were really hard to find due to nearly non existant blood trails. We only found them by careful grid search.
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Here in WV the smallest size you can hunt deer with is a .38. I do know one guy who has killed numerous deer with a .40 caliber and he said that every time he shot a deer with a .40 caliber he was able to find the ball still in the deer.
That same guy told me a story of a hunting trip he remembered as a kid. The event happened in the late 1930's. He was about 7 years old and went hunting with his grandfather. His grandfather still used a halfstock WV rifle. (I believe that his grandfather bought it new in the early 1880's) His grandfather loaded up the rifle and they headed out deer hunting. A short while later they came up on a 4 point buck eating apples. His grandfather raised the rifle and fired. The deer went a few yards and dropped over.
I was able to see the rifle and the pouch. The rifle his grandfather was using was a .35 caliber and the powder measre that was still attached to the pouch strap held about 32 grains of powder. That was enough to kill that particular deer however I don't think I would ever try that.
Brian
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"...the smallest acceptable caliber for whitetail?..."
"...Best overall for them..."
I think you actually asked two questions and they are different...plus you didn't put any parameters around the questions like, only deer hunting in woods where shots only average 40 yards, or you're hunting in wide open places with long distance shots, etc.
SMALLEST CALIBER
Putting aside that deer have been taken with .22 rimfires and .40cal MLs, IMO the smallest reasonable size caliber a .45cal...and at that, I think of it as the .243 of muzzleloaders...patience yto wait for a clear unobstructed heart shot with no bones involved, etc and while 100yds is certainly possible...(like the .22cal)...I think 75yds is a more appropriate line in the sand.
BEST OVERALL FOR THEM
As a general deer hunting caliber choice to cover all reasonable distances you might encounter, and wanting good mass & energy carried to long distances that might also hit large bone, IMO the .54 and .58cals should be considered.
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Every time I see this question and the resulting answers, I never see any consideration for the average size of deer in different parts of the country. For example, deer in northern Illinois are huge in comparison to the average size deer in some of the southern states. Seems to me a smaller size caliber might be okay for the small southern size deer and a larger size caliber for states that have bigger deer.
Fifty caliber might be the best round for northern Illinois deer, but the state says anything over .44 caliber and thousands upon thousands of northern Illinois deer have been taken with a .45 caliber. However, I would call a .58 caliber a bit of overkill for any whitetail deer.
Illinois state DNR records show that more deer are killed each year with a "bumper gun" than any muzzle loader regardless of caliber.
Randy Hedden
www.harddogrifles.com
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Guys I left it kind of vague to get more input all around. I built a Sharon Hawken in .58 back in the late 70's to Elk hunt Idaho with. I'm sure it would kill clean just I am not sure I want to hump that much gun around the woods of GA if I can get away with less. Looking forward to my first squirrel hunt too. I really think the .40 will be taking care of that for me.
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I love the .54cal. .45 is fun but i can not hunt with a round ball .45 in my state due to weight limits. The .50 just barely meets the limit
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In my uses there's no penalty in picking a larger caliber for "overall" uses. I've probably killed more deer with a 54 than any other caliber, but then again I've probably killed more snowshoe hares my 54's, too. I've got 32's and 36's, but they're so specialized that I use them only for small game and consequently use them a lot less. I use the 54 so much for small game because it is terrific field practice with my bigger bores. If I had to pick an "all around" caliber for my needs right now, it would undoubtedly be a 58, the largest caliber I currently own. My 58's haven't popped more deer and snowshoe hare than any other caliber only because I haven't owned them as long as my 54's.
Of course I'm shooting reduced loads in the larger calibers, but why not? They're superbly accurate and do a bang up job for head shooting small game.
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If you were hunting with a centerfirefire you would probably use a 270 or a 3006 correct? So why not use a 54 or a 58 cal. Bigger bullet = bigger hole. I understand not wanting to carry a heavy rifle in the woods but I want to put down what I hit. Tim
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I can recall a story in the Pennsylvania Game News by Bob Hujsa, brother of Rich Hujsa who helps to score the guns at
Dixons. Anyway, Bob did a story on killing a black bear here in Pa. with a 50 cal. flintlock. A very interesting story since
I was just getting into the flintlock game...........Don
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This question comes up all the time and has no real single answer. First you have to consider state laws where you are going to hunt. Some states allow .40--a bit light for deer IMHO [although D. Crockett supposedly killed 106 black bear with a .40 one year]. My state's minimum is .44--a bit better for deer. My first MLing deer rifle was a .45. Better, and arguably the best all-around whitetail deer caliber is the .50 [many would disagree and say the .54]. I know many hunters who cleanly take whitetails with the .50 rd ball. For Mulies I'd go with a .54. Shot placement and restricting shots to reasonble ranges are keys to cleanly taking deer with any caliber round ball. You cannot make a MLer into a modern magnum. You must hit the vitals with a good piece of lead at a reasonable velocity--and .45 or .50 will do the trick. One friend of mine has taken countless big whitetails with his .50 Hawken and never found the balls--they pass completely through the animal at any angle. If I remember right he uses 90 gr ffg. Another friend uses both a .45 and a .50 at times and also has had great success. I know his load for his .50 is 90 gr ffg. I tend to use a little less powder in my .50 [75 gr fffg], but have a lot less experience with deer killing with that load than my friends do with theirs. I tend to pass up shots over 75 yds with my old eyes. Like others said, a deer can be killed with a .22 [not advisable]--one of my buddies has taken a doe with a .22CB--a round that sends a 40 gr bullet out at only 725 fps MV! He shot it in the neck/spine from a tree stand at probably under 30 yds. Just about any MLer would be better than that! He would think nothing of using a .40 on deer, even though it is illegal here. He is a skilled shot [was a Marine sniper].
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As Randy stated, there is a difference between a Midwestern deer and a southern deer. I do not care how good one can shoot, a smaller caliber will screw you up sooner or later. I have had deer take a step forward about the time the trigger was pulled and hit a little further back than I like, nor do you always get the perfect broad side shot (sometimes you think you may have it). Also you have to consider range. Some folks tend to shoot deer up very close and others over 50 yards. In Minnesota where bucks commonly make the paper field dressing at 180-200+ pounds which puts them over 200 on the hoof I feel the 50 is as small as I want to use. I also get shots in the 75 -100 yard range in fields. The 95 grain 40 is just too light and the 45 at 130 OK up close, but a 50 or over will permit better blood trails. I have been deer hunting for over 40 years and seen them shot with about anything you can think of. Theres no reason to mess around with inadequate calibers. Difference between hunting and a stunt.
DP
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Thanks all. Please don't worry that I'm not concerned about the animal or doing a "stunt". I'm just not real familiar with hunting in your end of the country and wanted to see what you all thought were the best set of compromises. Just so you know how I think on this, my favorite modern hunting gun for the Idaho mountains is a Winchester 70 featherweight that I had rebarreled and chambered in .338-06. I tend to like having a bit more than not enough. I like to shoot careful on every shot and will pass rather than wound something I might not be able to take down cleanly. Sounds like a .50 or .54 will be in the works before too long.
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in colo you can use as small as a 40 as long as it weighs 173 gr. so it has to be a 50 to use a prb. ::)
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I saw a couple posts somewhere about a little .40cal conical or paper patched conical that worked well in a .40cal if that's what you happened to have...was heavier of course and pretty accurate in the 1:48"...just can't remember any more details about it
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An old man once told me that it don't matter so much what you hit'em with, as where you hit'em with it!
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Well I'll tell ya, I love the .54 cal. Ive taken Illinois , Missouri deer and squirrel with it. Yes it was head shot (thank God) but I do plan on repeating it . In my opinion .54 smooth rifle is about the most handy gun you can have squirrel to deer. Patched RB off a rest will reach out to 100 yards with perfectly acceptable accuracy for deer, bear, elk.
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Locale is Pennsylvania with her medium sized deer. I built a .54 Jaeger more than a couple of years ago for that game! Lately I'm suspecting that she is ferhexed since I'm having trouble getting a shot at those critters... ::)
I do refer now to hunting from a treestand not outta the truck window. I do recall that shooting a flinter out of a car or truck window you end up cleaning windows for a month!!! :o
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I believe ohio has a minimum of 38 cal. I know many have been shot around here with 40 cal. My uncle has done it many times. I personally hunt with a 54. Probably over kill, but They don't run very far afterwards. Really a person has to ask this question to himself. There are many variables, which many have already answered. size of deer, typical distance for shots, your shooting and hunting ability. I would not be afraid of hunting deer with a 40 around here. I would approach hunting the same way I do when I hunt during archery season. Get as close as possible and only take good shots that are clear. I don't know about you guys, but I have been very close to deer when hunting on the ground around here. I can get with in 10 yards regularly. I have been able to touch deer during gun season. I would never dream of attempting hunting with a 40 cal out west though. I have seen new mexico, arizona, colorado. It would be very difficult to get close to game consistently. Game are larger.
It really comes down to being a humane concientious hunter. Know your game, hunting area and skills.
Respectfully submitted,
Marc
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I've touched every deer I've ever shot with a muzzleloader...
;D
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I've taken deer with .44, .45, .62 rb, and 12 ga. sluggun. I like the bigger calibers for the increased blood trail if they take off running. I've had them go 300-500 yds with the .45, but I've also dropped a 200lb buck in his tracks with the .437 ball. Depends on shot placement. With the .62 Jaeger, I've never had one go more than 100 yds. It seems to be more deadly and productive than the shotgun, simply because it is more accurate and comfortable to shoot! The short barrel also handles well in the thick woods I hunt and from a blind.
I hope to get a midwest whitetail with my .54 Beck rifle this fall/winter. Just seems like they would be lined up to get shot by that beauty, but so far they stay out of sight when I'm carrying Becky.
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It depends...
Assuming *proper shot placement*....
The 45 is certainly adequate. I consider the 50 a good minimum for deer either Whitetail or Mule deer. If you hunt in the west a 54 might be better. If you hunt on a 40 or 160 acre lease in the east you might want a 62 to make it little less likely they will get off the property.
Deer can be very hard to stop. I have had them cover 200 yards when dead but didn't know it. Both 50 and 54 and the range was short both times. I could not believe the whitetail shot with the 54 could run off but she did and at high speed. Died mid leap, landed dead and slid to a stop on the snow and never wiggled. But I have seen them go 150-200 shot with 7mm mag with chunks of lung out the exit hole...
First deer my son shot was at 40 yards+- with a 45 flint with 45 grains of FFFG. The deer went maybe 75 yards shot just over the heart. Ball did not exit.
Any of them will work. Just do not expect the deer to fold at the shot. Unless the nervous system is interrupted or shocked they are not likely to go down in their tracks no matter what they are shot with.
If you re-enact something that "fits". Most original Kentuckies with rifling top out at about 50 caliber, some are bigger many are smaller. But the 50 is a very nice caliber for deer sized animals. It will kill deer reliably about as far as you should be shooting with a RB.
But the final choice is yours. Pick the style you like and then use a caliber appropriate to the style. Some Golden age stock designs are not all that good with calibers over 50 unless the rifle is fairly heavy. Some can cause grief as 45s. At least some pre-carves. Using a 50 allows a lighter rifle than the larger calibers do. If you want a 62 or bigger you will generally be better served in building an appropriate English style rifle or a well designed German Jaeger. Over 62 it gets very important. 62s get into the realm of nasty with a stock not meant/designed to handle recoil well. So the stock design and caliber really need to be paired for best results. Recoil can get into the 375 H&H realm or even worse with the larger bores. 66 and up.
If you want a 54-58 both good choices for a heavy kentucky choose a stock design from the early American guns with fairly flat comb lines, a wide buttplate and use a c weight swamp.
A 495 ball will weigh 180 grains, the 535 about 225-230, the .615 is about 350, a .662 ball weighs 437 a 735 ball will get close to 600 IIRC. The recoil will go up in proportion, or worse, if the velocity is kept about the same. All will give good one shot kills on deer and even elk.
Picking a golden age stock design and building a light 54 or 62 can make for a very uncomfortable rifle.
Make you choice practice with the rifle and then hunt. Practice and familiarity with the rifle is more important than caliber.
For those worried about tracking the deer and blood trails etc. When broadside standing up with the legs normally placed shoot them right over the front leg 1/3 of the way down the body from the top of the shoulder. This will anchor about any deer if bone, shoulder and/or spine, is hit.
Yes its kinda long but there is no simple answer to this. It just SEEMS simple.
Dan
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Paddlefoot...In what area of GA are you hunting?
I am just across the Chattahoochee south of Columbus, GA. In my area we have basically the same deer as most of GA. I have had great success for better than 35 years with a .50 cal. I use 90 grains FFG and roundball. I have even taken quite a few of your GA pigs with the .50.
I have recently started shooting a .54 cal. I find it to have just that little more umph in case you run into your GA pigs on your deer hunt and depending on your location (especially South GA) you will see pigs in GA.
Even with great long term success with the .50, If I were to choose one rifle for this area...with what I know now...I would choose the .54 cal.
Good luck with what ever you choose.
DanL
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Hi there,
I've used a .54 and .58 flint more than anything else, and been more than pleased with them.
I'm not sure the overkill idea really works.
What I mean is, I've shot muleys with the .58, and you can eat right up to the bullet hole,... no ruined blood-shot meat like a modern high-power can give you.
I don't have many recovered balls, most seem to go through from most angles. but meat mainly undamaged.
Shot rabbits, etc with same gun, and so long as you pop them in the head, no bothers.
All best.
Richard.
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Like some of the previous posts have noted, I've also seen everything from a .22 to a .375 Winchester take deer. Personally, with a muzzleloader, I've taken them with a .45 up through a .62. I feel the most confident with a .50 or larger but realize that a large caliber will never make up for poor shot placement. Having said all of that, I personally have the most confidence in my .54 or .58 flintlocks for doing the job out to 100 yards. They have been flawless over the past years in bringing in the venison. Tom
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im in western colo. i have used a 50 w/prb for several deer. several yrs ago i built a fullstock hawken percussion in 62. i generally take broadside chest shots, and with either, i dont think any have ever gone over 65-70 yds when hit right. i usually use 100 grs 2f in the 62 and 80-100 3f in the 50. i shot a 2pt (western count) with the 62 at 135 paces and he didnt go 65 yds and the ball went clear through, of course. i have thought of going to a 54 for economy. a 62 of course only yields 20 shots a pound of lead.
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I haven't done any GA hunting yet, which is the major point of the question. I will be in Hall County, North Georgia, about 10 miles north of Gainesville. There is going to be a lot I will have to get used to. I was back there looking at the property my mom left me and there is a good bit of deer sign around but none of my family hunts so I couldn't get any feedback from them. High adventure in their eyes is killing a snake crossing the road.
I'm really looking forward to seeing more of the country back there. My property is not too far from the southern end of the Appilachian Trail so I have a lot of catching up to do. Researching ancestors and all...great,great, grandma was full blood Cherokee with relatives relocated in 1838 on the trail of tears.
I do thank you all for sharing your experiences and opinions. I'm thinking a Mark Silver-Virginia Rifle in .58 might be a good choice since I have a number of different molds for balls in that caliber and should be able to find some combo that shoots well. I have never shot a pig with a muzzleloader but we have Russian Blue Boars out here that do take a lot of killing even with modern stuff. Always use enough gun.
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Paddlefoot,
My '58's a Mark Silver flint, and it's never let me down in years and years of hunting.
I don't think you could go wrong with this rifle.
Here in Alberta there are some big heavy deer, and it's never let one get away.
just need to keep range to about 100 yds or less, though some have stretched this a bit.
You should really enjoy your chance to hunt on the old place!
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Mood and circumstances have a lot to do with caliber choice with several in the house. I hunt deer in very serious brown bear country, seeing sign every day and often meeting their source. These are the big coastal grizzlies with the biggest topping 1000 pounds. You'd think I'd be hunting with heavy loads in my 58, just in case of troubles. Not necessarily. If they are particularly active in one area, I just hunt somewhere else. Best bear "defense" I know of.
I've been hunting with a 50 cal (80 grains of 3f), mostly because I really like the rifle. It's a dandy deer combo without regard for any bear "stopping" potential or lack thereof.
Starting today I'm switching to a short, fast 58. More bears? Nope. Tougher deer? Nope.
The weather has turned to **** and the deer have moved into deep cover. With the rain and all, I want a bigger blood trail along with more potential to drop a deer quickly. There are bonus points since the bears like cover too, making for close encounters and quick reaction times. It's also harder to detect their sign beforehand and pick another hunting area.
Come to think of it, the weather is getting worse by the minute. Maybe I'll just stay home today and go back to the 50 caliber once it clears.
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"Overkill" with a relatively slow moving patched round ball does not really exist. When I say "slow moving" most loads are 2000fps or less. In big bores more like 1800 or less. About all that a big bore does is blow a bigger hole in the terrain on the far side of the deer. You will not get the meat destruction of the high velocity modern rifles, but they work. As to anchoring a deer on the spot, unless you break bones or destroy the spine or brain it ain't going to happen. A friend of my son's bought a bolt action in 50BMG. Shot a 750 grain bullet at 2700 fps or so. He hit a large doe with it and blew out the far side of the rib cage and saw her run about 70 yards. I have seen them go down on the spot with small calibers and seen them run hit very hard with very large calibers. Seems that those that are in the woods and think they are safe go down quickest. A big bore in a round ball is just better because it penetrates more if you need it and leaves an adequate blood trail. If you have to anchor one on the spot, breaking a shoulder as Dpharsis mentioned is about the safest bet. May destroy a little meat but shoulder meat is ground for hamburger anyway. Slower bullets are not as bad as fast ones. My old 270 with 130 grains would take out a whole shoulder. I still remember watching a deer run off the field well over 100 yards and go across the road into a patch of woods hot by the 270. Hit perfectly right behind the shoulder, flawless bullet performance with insides turned to jelly. You tell me?
DP
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But there is really something unique about a round lead ball...basically every deer I've shot with a PRB has fallen within sight...a couple where they stood, most after a mad dash for 25yds, and a couple that crashed down 35-40yds away past a few trees...I always try for a heart shot and they just don't get very far...I seen a couple make a mad dash after I've shot them through the heart and run headlong into a tree 25yds away, dead on their feet...a remarkable projectile really
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I've never hunted deer with anything less then .45 PRB and have also used the .50 and .54 PRB for taking deer and antelope. They all work and shot placement is everything. Roundball goes for the heart, I like to go for the lungs. Just two different schools of thought on where to hit 'em, but both work provided we've done our part and put the ball where it needs to go within our chosen range of good marksmanship acceptance.
I spend a lot of time at the range shooting my .45, so I do prefer my .45. I've yet to make (in my book) a poor shot on deer size game with any of the three, .45, .50, and .54,,, knock on wood, and I do feel a successful hunt is directly related to range time with any caliber the hunter has chosen to hunt with.
I'm not saying I will never make a poor shot because it can happen in a heart beat to any of us. I just feel if you're a hunter and prefer a certain caliber round ball over another and you have confidence in your shooting ability from your range sessions, there's no reason not to use what is legal in your state, be it a .38, .40,
.44, .45, and so on. Confidence in your chosen muzzle loader and your shooting ability has a lot to do with making the good shot that will put meat on the table.
Just my thoughts. :)
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I was out testing both my .40 longrifle and .50 Canoe guns yesterday. I came away with a healthy respect for the 'bounce' that light canoe gun has with 90gr. 3F GOEX and a .490" round ball. The .495" ball didn't seem to add anything to it's accuracy as both acounted for some 2" groups at 50 yards. What I did find, was that it was awful trying to shoot it offhand. It's light weight made hitting a rabbit target at 25 yards an iffy thing. Since that target was similar to a deer's lungs in size, I decided the rifle needs more barrel weight - the 21" .50 without underrib just doesn't cut it. Even the addition of an underrib on that short barrel won't give enough weight, so it's going to be re-barreled this winter. Mayber I'll put a 30" .54 on it due to it having a 15/16" barrel size. We'll see.
As I'd like to use a flinter for deer this fall, I'll just put the .45 barrel back on my longrifle and use it. It's very accurate, I have faith in it and my shooting with it. That's 2 good reasons to use the .45 instead of the .50.
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What I did find, was that it was awful trying to shoot it offhand. It's light weight made hitting a rabbit target at 25 yards an iffy thing.
Hey Daryl. Try a different style of shooting with that whippy gun. Think of how you shoot a lively shotgun at a departing grouse. I use my short rifles for quick shooting in close cover, for which they excell. There's something about standing on a range that makes us try to use "quick" guns for slow deliberate shooting. I'm amazed at how much better I shoot mine when I start with them at the ready position at my waist, then deliberately raise and fire them the moment the sights line up. Sounds crazy, but it just about cuts my groups in half from slow and deliberate aiming. It's more of an eye-and-hand thing like hitting a baseball than a whole body thing.
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It's light weight made hitting a rabbit target at 25 yards an iffy thing. Since that target was similar to a deer's lungs in size, I decided the rifle needs more barrel weight - the 21" .50 without underrib just doesn't cut it. Even the addition of an underrib on that short barrel won't give enough weight, so it's going to be re-barreled this winter.
I gradually replaced every wooden under-barrel ramrod I had with 3/8" solid brass...the extra couple pounds out front is terrific in settling down muzzle wander.
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While I think it has to do with nostalgia, the 13/16 45's are what got me hooked in the first place on ML's, I like them. When I started shooting ML's in the later 70's about every Pennsylvania rifle I saw had a 13/16 45 barrel. Also saw some great shooting with them. They held pretty good for me, but then I never liked as heavy of rifle as some. For five shot groups they tended to casue fatigue after a 3-4 relays. I shot some of the best 5 shot groups ever with one. At one match since I was the returning "champion" (long story you had to be there) I got to pick my target and take on all challengers for a very large locally ground sausage roll. I remained undefeated and won the sausage. It was a small life size squirrel target.
DP
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It has to be the cal/gun you feel most confident and comfortable with this is dependant also on the game of choice, a .54 will suffice for anything in the lower states ceot the big Bears, every game animal in the lower states has been kileed with the .50 ball but many would comsider it to small for moose and marginal for Elk, this is one of those things ya gotta figure out for your self.
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I like big calibers...ie...the bigger the ball the bigger the hole and the less you will have to track the animal...if you have the right shot placement.
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I miss my .69, snifffff.
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Well at least nobody said squirrel couldn't be taken with anything that didn't have a lanyard! ;D
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Notice most of you reported your state having some minimum caliber or projectile weight for muzzleloading rifles for hunting. Arizona had no restrictions on muzzleloaders regarding minimum caliber and the only restriction on modern rifles is it has to be a centerfire. This includes deer, elk, bear, buffalo even. Anyone else live in a state such loose restrictions? They do have some minimum restrictions on draw weight and minimum width of broadheads for the archers though. (40lb pull, 50lb on buffalo).
Because there aren't restrictions, it isn't unusual to encounter some foul ball hunting with a .22 centerfire for elk. Ran into one of the State's possum cops who touted the .22-250 as his favorite elk rifle.
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Jerry, there are some of us who could pull off such a stunt - BUT - wouldn't even attempt it becasue we have enough experience to know something could go drastically wrong and the game suffers. Those who do carry such calibres for big game generally lack the expertise and knowledge to pull off the shots that are necessary. They also lack the morals to refuse to do the stunt. There are bullets available that are capable on most of our big game in the .224 calibre, BUT, they are handloading propositions only and no ammo suitable for this is sold in stores. I would also draw the limit for sub calibres for big game at deer - nothing bigger.
Here, there is no lower limit other than it has to be a centrefire, except for use on buffalo. On both, the game branch screwed up immensly - as normal SNA-U. What this means is I could conceivably go after moose or grizzlies with my .17AH. I could do the moose with handmade bullets, lathe turned ones at that, but still wouldn't. That would be a stunt and that moose deserves more respect- meaning a large bullet or ball.
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Daryl, I agree with you it is irresponsible to use a gun of insufficient ability for large game. I am just amazed Arizona hasn't been more restrictive for their large game animals. Far too many shooting with inadequate rifles. Reverse of this is somewhat true as well. I see even more hunters shooting magnum cartridges they are unable to handle because of recoil issues. Many of them are unable to establish a zero with the rifle because they are flinching so bad at the range during thier one box/once a year practice a week before elk season. If we knew the true numbers for these guys I would bet they do a lot of wounding for every elk recovered.
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Out here in the upper left corner, .40 is the minimum for deer. It makes perfect sense to me. I don't think I've ever taken a shot at a Columbia Blacktail at more than 30 yards, and they are much smaller than your whitetails and mulies. Here on my island a big deer would be a 150lb (live) buck. Few ever get that big. A friend took a doe last fall that was 90lb live. Big rabbits.
I've got .25, .32, .45, .50, and 20 ga. The .50 smoothrifle would be my favorite on the east side of WA, but the .45 with 36" bbl is handier in the dense cover here on the rainy side of the Cascade Range. I've been thinking of a .40 smoothrifle lately.
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Daryl, I agree with you it is irresponsible to use a gun of insufficient ability for large game. I am just amazed Arizona hasn't been more restrictive for their large game animals. Far too many shooting with inadequate rifles. Reverse of this is somewhat true as well. I see even more hunters shooting magnum cartridges they are unable to handle because of recoil issues. Many of them are unable to establish a zero with the rifle because they are flinching so bad at the range during thier one box/once a year practice a week before elk season. If we knew the true numbers for these guys I would bet they do a lot of wounding for every elk recovered.
Just about anything is legal in Montana for just about anything. We like it like that.
Dan
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Minnesota just "simplified" their firearms requirements and permit any centerfire rifle of 22 caliber or above. One could hunt with a 22 hornet or a 380 handgun if they wanted. Increased sales of 223's as many want to use them. Still left the minimum for ML's at 40 for a rifle, 45 for a smoothbore (interesting distinction). It may permit a little irresponsibility but I don't think it will too much. the "magnum" mentality still exists and some may be able to hit with what they shoot. I remember an individual in my deer hunting party many years ago that shot a 30-30 bolt off the bench so poorly I could have matched him shooting offhand with my 357 4". I wasn't that good, he was that bad. He should not have been allowed in the woods with any rifle. A good shot with a 40 will get more deer than a poor shot with a 58. Over the long run a good shot with a 58 will have fewer problems than a good shot with a 40. Its all tradeoff. Most like the 54 because it is the largest bore that can be shot comfortably with a heavier charge. A 50 is great for deer because most can shoot one well and it still has considerable punch. A 45 isn't all bad either. I hold that "deer rifles" were called that for a reason.
DP
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With a .45 it is important to limit the range regardless of shot placement. I once shot a very large, very old whitetail doe with a .45 over snow, beyond reasonable range (120 yards). She was quartering toward me and the ball struck her low in the chest. She ran 80 yards and went down, but was not done and required another shot. Over snow it was no problem tracking her but otherwise it would have been very hard as the blood trail was intermittent and never dramatic. I've always gotten good blood trails and one shot kills with bigger calibers. The .45 has taken several deer for me, but I think shots should be within 70 yards.
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With a .45 it is important to limit the range regardless of shot placement. I once shot a very large, very old whitetail doe with a .45 over snow, beyond reasonable range (120 yards). She was quartering toward me and the ball struck her low in the chest. She ran 80 yards and went down, but was not done and required another shot. Over snow it was no problem tracking her but otherwise it would have been very hard as the blood trail was intermittent and never dramatic. I've always gotten good blood trails and one shot kills with bigger calibers. The .45 has taken several deer for me, but I think shots should be within 70 yards.
I agree with that. What we tend to forget is that the old time eastern hunters usually shot their game very close-up after running them with dogs and cornering or treeing them. Even a .40 will work then. Mucho big game was shot at ranges of a few feet to touching the barrel to the sides of cornered game--usually hounded by dogs. Reading in Horace Kephart's Our Southern Highlanders [also repeated in Bob Plott's book on the history of hunting in the Smokies], at least one old mountaineer hunter clung to his MLer because the modern Winchesters in use then were "too powerful" and tended to shoot through the game at close range--killing or wounding the highly valued hunting dogs. The implication is that they did not "load-up" their MLers either, because most of the loads I see listed here will also shoot through an animal--deer or bear. The MLing rifle is a relatively close-range weapon for most practical purposes. Both open sights and modest ballistics make them so. The modern hunter does not want to hear that and therefore goes to big bores and heavy charges.
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The MLing rifle is a relatively close-range weapon for most practical purposes.
Speaking of close range weapons, Bob Plott tells of one of his Plott ancestors that killed 175 bear (I think that was the number, friend borrowed my book) with his percussion bear pistol!
Dennis
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The whole thing is so situational that there's no one "right" answer.
Today I spotted a big broad deer butt (Sitka blacktail) at about 50 yards in open timber with underbrush, head down and feeding. Started stalking sideways for a better angle, and it raised it's head revealing a very nice 3x4 Western count rack. But rack, skull cap, eyes and nose were all that could be seen over that broad butt. Two quick hops straight away and it was gone.
I might have made a successful Texas heart shot if I'd been inclined, but I doubt it. And I was packing a 58 charged with 100 grains of 3f. Yup. Just goes to show that a 58 caliber isn't enough gun for Sitka blacktails. ;D
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Notice most of you reported your state having some minimum caliber or projectile weight for muzzleloading rifles for hunting. Arizona had no restrictions on muzzleloaders regarding minimum caliber and the only restriction on modern rifles is it has to be a centerfire. This includes deer, elk, bear, buffalo even. Anyone else live in a state such loose restrictions? They do have some minimum restrictions on draw weight and minimum width of broadheads for the archers though. (40lb pull, 50lb on buffalo).
Because there aren't restrictions, it isn't unusual to encounter some foul ball hunting with a .22 centerfire for elk. Ran into one of the State's possum cops who touted the .22-250 as his favorite elk rifle.
He probably shoots them with a light...
We have mental midgets that use the 243 on elk around hear.
Years ago there was a local who killed G-bears with a 22 Savage Hipower. This was a pretty potent 22 centerfire 70 gr bullet as I recall and pretty good velocity. Story goes that some one of the old timers related seeing him kill 3 with 3 shots all in a bunch.
But one day he came to town and traded it for a 300 H&H.
Another local (well he lived down on the North border of YNP back about 1900) used to trap G-bears and shoot them in the trap with a 25-35. He also had standard poodles that he would sic on the bear for fun. One bear took exception to this and killed Frenchy. He then went on to kill at least one more human he ran into before vanishing. One must wonder if Frenchy would have died of old age if he had had a 45-90 or some such.
Funny the big fire in Yellowstone in 1988 burned out Slough Creek and killed about all the trees around Frenchies meadow but did not kill the ones right at the grave or burn the wooden sign or barricade that surrounds it. But the bears do scratch and chew it....
Dan
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I remember reading the story of the largest MN whitetail shot way back when by an individual using a 25-20. I do not remember how many times he shot it, but he tracked it over H--l's half acre and did not get really good hits. There was snow on the ground. Took him a good part of a day to get it. Another record I remember was a very large deer shot in Missouri. When dressed that deer read like a harware store. It had a couple of slugs in it, some 22 LR and a broadhead, all healed over. When we hear about the local that gets his venison every year with his trusty little rifle, I always wonder how many he lost. Some are cool shots and take only good shots, others may not be. One individual I was told about used a 25-35 on elk. He also bought a box of shells a year because he needed all of them.
I think there's a reason the 30-30 survived the longest of 94 rounds and I still feel that while you do not have to go overboard a larger caliber don't hurt.
DP
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I remember reading the story of the largest MN whitetail shot way back when by an individual using a 25-20. I do not remember how many times he shot it, but he tracked it over H--l's half acre and did not get really good hits. There was snow on the ground. Took him a good part of a day to get it. Another record I remember was a very large deer shot in Missouri. When dressed that deer read like a harware store. It had a couple of slugs in it, some 22 LR and a broadhead, all healed over. When we hear about the local that gets his venison every year with his trusty little rifle, I always wonder how many he lost. Some are cool shots and take only good shots, others may not be. One individual I was told about used a 25-35 on elk. He also bought a box of shells a year because he needed all of them.
I think there's a reason the 30-30 survived the longest of 94 rounds and I still feel that while you do not have to go overboard a larger caliber don't hurt.
DP
...and it helps to remember that the .30-30 has better [on paper] ballistics than any of our rd ball frontstuffers--for years outdoor writers have told us [in the face of all history] that the .30-30 is marginal for deer! Keeps the MLer rifle in perspective. Know your gun/load. Keep your shots in ranges where you know you can hit a small target every time. Use enough gun.
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Ooops, 25/20's, tuddy-tuddies, forti-five 90's 'n two two's - this is going down hill.
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"Just about any thing is legal in Montana." Dphariss
Out there they figure anybody stupid enough to shoot a grizzly with a 45 cal roundball will only do it once.. The Grizzly will eat the hunter and the gun for dessert!!
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Its too bad in some ways that our legislators have to protect us so much. Daughter has a copy of the "Darwin Awards" which makes very good reading. A wise philosopher once said "It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious". I know I shouldn't talk about those modern calibers, but they do help make a point at times as that is where our experiences lie. We have been contaminated by them and as such cannot really help but to make some comparisons. Its like those doing reinaction and the buckskinners. It is very difficult to put yourself in great grandpa's shoes when you can go back home and sleep in a heated house with plumbing and a warm bed. When the ML rifle was the only show in town the thinking seemed to be literally to get the best bang for the buck. I really doubt that many of us really need to worry about the cost of transporting or shooting a 54 as compared to a 45. Horse travel is another issue few of us know about and my father used to tell me stories about farming with the @@##&&&** horses (compressed the length of the symbols for his adjectives). Also remember that great grandad did not get too upset about losing a gut shot deer, except for the loss of meat and cost of the shot. Very little concern over the animal itself. Mostly I feel that the use of a round ball is humane and effective within their limitations because we have overdone the modern weapons. I hunt with my ML's because the 270 was about like shooting my yearly beef only I got less animal for a bigger cartridge. We hunt for enjoyment and have different rules in doing so that includes making cleaner kills.
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"Just about any thing is legal in Montana." Dphariss
Out there they figure anybody stupid enough to shoot a grizzly with a 45 cal roundball will only do it once.. The Grizzly will eat the hunter and the gun for dessert!!
Jerry - that's called retro-birth control. It helps prevent that gene pool from contaminating the soup.
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The philosopher was Mark Twain and the Griz would use the gun for a toothpick! I'll tell you that my .58 Hawken seemed a bit inadequate when I had my size 13 Sorrel snopack inside a Griz track that was a good 4 inches bigger. I was pretty glad not to see that old feller.
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Best grizzly track I've seen was a perfect imprint in firm soil. The left front foot (right track was skuffed) measured exactly 9 1/4" across the widest spot. The cub was putting down a 5" track, normal for about a 250 pound fully grown black bear. Now, consider that cub's track will be outsized to his body so that would make it only a 1 1/2 old fo good genes.
Now, the best black bear track was in the area Taylor and I guided in. I found that one when guiding a young German hunter who actually wanted a small bear for some odd reason. That track was 7 1/8" across and was indeed, a black bear track. I'd want something larger than .45 or even .50 when hunting that particular bear.
: When hunting the spotted buck, be prepared to flush a tiger. I once tread upon the tail of a tiger when attempting to flush a partridge.(or some such quote from "The Sporting Rifle and it's Projectiles" by Lt. James Forsyth(1861)
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The track I was talking about was in snow and was pretty fresh (no hard ice from freezing overnight). We were in the St. Joe Wilderness in the Idaho panhandle where they drop off the problem bears from Yellowstone Park. I figured that being around a Griz that was used to humans was a bad idea.
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Oh, I don't know, they seem freindly enough to me and sometimes are almost constant companions when we fly-fish for sockeye.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FSalmon%2520Fishing%2520on%2520the%2520Babine%2520River%2F0d207ab5.jpg&hash=e736f9ed970428c1ed5a97f4ba866a72dd1fd905)
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Obviously you can run faster than your fishin' buddies.....
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I'm going to make two quick points and then drop out of this thread.
First, the facts of life about bearanoia:
Horror stories and web myths lead people to do and say some pretty stupid things about bears. Heads-up woodscraft, common sense and experience will almost always keep you out of trouble. Do your part in relations with bears, and you're more likely to get hurt in your own home than by a bear. Campfire ghost stories are fun for scaring kids, right up to the point that they panic and run into trees.
And second, a source for factual information about living with bears:
In many parts of the continent, local residents coexist quite successfully with bears with almost no injuries on either side of the species divide. This site (http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=bears.main) encapsulates a lot of really useful information about how that is done, as well as providing some links to other good info sources, including some great ones in Canada.
I'm in the "crowd" that lives successfully with bears. We're an hour from the nearest city deep in grizzly country (aka: coastal brown bears), and we regularly have them in our yard. I can't recall a single outing in which we don't see tracks or bears, often at fairly close range. And in 35 years I've NEVER had to shoot one. They've scared me silly a few times, but thank god they're there. I'll shoot one if I have to, but thankfully that's never happened. They're a part of "wilderness" to me, which is why I choose to live where I do. Life would be really sad without them. I just wish folks would devote as much time and effort to learning how to live with them as they invest in collecting horror stories, true or not.
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Ah you know you are spot on with that. Probably the biggest problem guys like me have with bears is that the ones we have contact with are the ones spoiled by civilization. They get used to finding easy food sources and get used to humans to the extent that they no longer stay away from us and then we manage to cross paths when it's a suprize to both. Still once you have seen one unzip the side of a Honda Accord like it was a paper bag you tend to have a healthy respect for Mr. Bear's wishes. Sure the fool left his ice chest full of food in the car but who doesn't have food scent around their camp? I guess we all just wonder if we are being careful enough. Same thing with people fearing sharks. I've done a lot of diving and never had a bad experience but I'm still not going on one of those pet the shark dives....There I draw the line.
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I just love this picture. The fisherman is my sort-of son-in-law. I took the pictures.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FSalmon%2520Fishing%2520on%2520the%2520Babine%2520River%2Fc1dfbd02.jpg&hash=87732989467e916b849f954211269a5e761dd9bc)
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I'm going to make two quick points and then drop out of this thread.
First, the facts of life about bearanoia:
Horror stories and web myths lead people to do and say some pretty stupid things about bears. Heads-up woodscraft, common sense and experience will almost always keep you out of trouble. Do your part in relations with bears, and you're more likely to get hurt in your own home than by a bear. Campfire ghost stories are fun for scaring kids, right up to the point that they panic and run into trees.
And second, a source for factual information about living with bears:
In many parts of the continent, local residents coexist quite successfully with bears with almost no injuries on either side of the species divide. This site (http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=bears.main) encapsulates a lot of really useful information about how that is done, as well as providing some links to other good info sources, including some great ones in Canada.
I'm in the "crowd" that lives successfully with bears. We're an hour from the nearest city deep in grizzly country (aka: coastal brown bears), and we regularly have them in our yard. I can't recall a single outing in which we don't see tracks or bears, often at fairly close range. And in 35 years I've NEVER had to shoot one. They've scared me silly a few times, but thank god they're there. I'll shoot one if I have to, but thankfully that's never happened. They're a part of "wilderness" to me, which is why I choose to live where I do. Life would be really sad without them. I just wish folks would devote as much time and effort to learning how to live with them as they invest in collecting horror stories, true or not.
This is perfectly true.
The "almost no injuries" is interesting as well.
This is like being in a firefight and having your unit take "light casualties". This is perfectly true unless you are one of the people who got whacked. Then the casualties are 100% for you but you no longer care.
There is always the one time that is the exception. You only die once. You get killed you don't learn from the experience. Some people never figure this out.
Lots of things about bears are not myths and you know this from bear attacks in Alaska by blacks and browns.
Dad had a place near Healy and was building house. He was having trouble with a black bear getting into stuff. He got a chance and shot him. Basically a grown cub. He put him on his flatbed trailer and was going to skin him. He was then charged out of the brush by an old sow. He had his rifle handy and shot her as well.
Then we had the bears that used to live off the dump at Delt Jct and would get into anything plastic within a mile of so of the dump. Take 5 gal jugs of diesel fuel into the trees and bite holes in them. Get into cases of oil and bite the plastic bottles. Anything that they thought might be edible. Its kind of a pain in the ass and one would *think* diesel fuel would be something you could leave in your pickup overnight.
I don't trust bears, black brown or otherwise. Don't trust mountain lions either, was given a first had account of a hunter having to shoot one here in MT in self defense. How do you get away for something like that is after YOU? Its not possible in most cases.
A friend used to work at a "Dude" ranch on the north border of Yellowstone Park and shot several black bear sometimes several a year. He had a griz in his kitchen once. Fortunately the bear left, taking out a window frame and all when he opened the door. But I sure as $#*! would not want to bet my life on the bear running in such a situation but this time it did. He did not know the bear was there when he opened the hall door.
One black he shot off the side of the cook house when it was trying to get into the upstairs with the (screaming) girls that worked as maids.
Then there was the state or fed employee in AK that had her arms and legs eaten off by a black bear. IIRC this was somewhere between Fairbanks and Delta Jct.
There is an area in Wyoming where rifle fire is now a "dinner bell" for grizzlys like it in some places in AK. They are also stalking and attacking bow hunters using cow calls for elk in MT and WY. Several cases in the past 2-3 years. Hard to use a bear bell when trying to hunt elk.
All the experience in the world is not going to make a difference if the bear is HUNTING you or you come around the bend of the trail and come across an bear that is spring loaded for whatever reason. One person might live as you do for 35 years and never have a serious problem. The next person in the same neighborhood could get mauled this first week just from bad luck.
There is no sense in shooting every bear you see out of fright or stupidity. But going around thinking the woods savy and experience will solve every problem its also stupid.
I used to work for an outfitter in MT. They had bears in camp trouble one night (before my time and I was working in the 1980s) about 3 miles north of Yellowstone. Some time later the local fish cop asked Bo and his son that since the statute of limitations was now up how many bears did they actually shoot. The some piped up and asked the warden how many bears it took to be a felony. I understand they shot 5.
I know a man who has studied bears and written books. He told me that there is an old boar in Glacier that hates him and if he finds where he is camped he ALWAYS wrecks everything while he is gone doing field work. He has had to stay up all night and throw burning sticks and then leave when it was light. He refuses to carry a gun. Its his choice. He told me if a bear gets him it will be this one.
When you go into the woods with large carnivores around you become part of the food chain. Just a fact. That they generally choose not to kill and eat you does not make attacks on other people a myth.
Dan
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When I first started hunting with a cap lock I had a .45 Hawkin from CVA (I know! I know, but that was way back when I first saw Jeremiah Johnson.) because PA said .45 was the minimum for ML deer.
I still have a few .45s but they are just for teaching the scouts to load & shoot.
Everyday all around gun is the .54 on the Virginia and Lancaster rifles. It does great on any size deer and I took my elk with the Lancaster at well over 80 yards and she didn't make it out of sight before she dropped. In Alaska the .54 took my caribou
I bought the .73 double gun when I went to Alaska in case I ever met one of those western Griz, and it should handle about anything in North America. But it still hasn't hurt anything other than my right shoulder!
In northeast PA the black bears are hurting from exposure to humans. It's getting worse as people from NY and NY push west into Pike County (prime bear country). My Mom lives south of Wilkes-Barre and we routinely have large black bears wonder thru the yard and some have come up on the back porch. We have to park vehicles in a place about 100 yards down the road and see bears most nights anymore. I figure it's a matter of time before raising your hands up high and yelling "Shhoo BEAR!" doesn't work anymore.
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People are generally safe to be around too. I've only had trouble with one or two in my life. ;D
Seriously, I have had close encounters with 2 bears in the last ten years which would not back down.
One was intent on eating my dog, and was not impressed with my presence, and let me know it.
I shot him with a .62 cal flinter from 20 feet away. The other bear surprised me while I was hunting.
When I saw him, his ears went down, and the hair on his neck went up. He woofed at me. I put the gun on him, but didn't shoot because I was hunting partridge and was loaded with #6 shot. He decided to leave, but wasn't in a hurry when he ambled off. He was perhaps 15 feet away when stood off. One more step, and I told myself that I would shoot...I'm glad I didn't have to. I think that it is wise to be prepared. We believe that people are basically good, but we still lock our doors. I don't want my safety to be dependent on any wild animals "good behaviour" As said before, death is not something you learn from.
As for calibers, my most used is .50 , probably because I love a rifle built around a swamped "B" weight 50 cal. barrel.and the .50 works well on deer. That being said, if I had only one hunting rifle, I'd pick a .54
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I tend to have a live and let live attitude about bears, but do know of several "incidents" that are suggestive that they can be dangerous and deadly critters and unpredictable at times. I think DPhariss' reference to the lady attacked by a black bear in Alaska may be the one when a USGS female geologist lost both arms to a Black Bear while doing geology field work, alone and unarmed, up there [ca. 1980?]. I am a geologist and have been in bear country working for several periods of time. One of my friends was attacked unprovoked while studying a rock outcrop in Alaska by a Brown Bear. It came up from behind and yanked him off the rock. He balled up and survived, but his back is a mass of scars. One of the camp cooks in our North Slope camp was killed and eaten by a Polar Bear [which do include humans in their diet], when he was studpidly left alone in base camp while everyone else was out exploring. I know of several other bear attacks in Alaska on geology parties, some including death. My party traveled in threes, with one guy always on alert with a 12 gauge loaded for bear while the others did the geology--a requirement of my company after several "incidents". Now, I have spent much of my life [64 yrs old now] in the boonies, a good bit of it in bear country, and have had no problems personally. I do not fear to go into bear country, but have been a bit scared at times with close encounters--especially when unarmed [I rarely have any more a weapon on me than a pocket knife and a rock hammer or staff]. I must say I have been more rattled by nasty snakes than bears in my days in the wilds of North and South America, and other places.
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Dan hits some very good points as do Mike and Bob. I never go into the bush here unless I am armed with something. Usually it's a rifle or pelter and if a pelter, I have some round ball loads, just in case. for me, bears can raise YOUR hackles like no other animal. I have no experience with big cats, although we have a few around here. Wolves are a pest, especially at night around your tent, sniffing and growling - but 'probably' won't attack especially with so many moose around and without sufficient numbers. There were around 20 in the pack Hmmmmm.
Bears are another thing. Big and hairy with big teeth and big claws. Scary to contemplate and best to be armed & quite foolish to go into their living rooms without something to argue with if need be. One of the hunters last fall got a bit of a scare. We knew he was scared because 10 to 15 minutes later when he got back to camp after his noon-time 'run', he was still a bit whiter. A wolf had lay low in the middle of the 2-track he was running on and attacked him when he got close. Raised his hands and yelled - wolf stopped and took off- stopped it's charge about 10 feet in front of him. Had he not done as he did, would the wolf have stopped it's attack? I think he was lucky it wasn't a black bear - he'd probably have died - too far from camp to hear his screams - probably. That day he had become tired of carrying his bow with him (for grouse). I don't think he 'ran' during the noose rest period after that.
Although a grizzly attack usually doesn't turn into a predetary attack as with black bears, grizzlies are seemingly more prone to attack than black bears. Maybe the numbers average out in the end. Of course, the end is the end in any event. I don't care to undergo the 400 to1,000 stiches from a survived bear attack, hense I go armed - just in case.
We (forestry employees) were issued bear spray and bear bangers for when checking cut-blocks in remote areas. We thought we were 'probably' ok - then my daughter came back to camp after planting trees one day, to find a black bear on the table eating a can of bear spray. We've had bears 'fail' to be scared away, and only by amasing our numbers close together (3), opening up our coats to make us huge, yelling as loudly as possible, did the bear decide we weren't edible and slowly amble off into the trees. 10 min. earlier, the grizzly that had confronted us, ran off, but a bit later, the big black bear merely walked off slowly. The bear 'bangers' didn't faze either- guess they were used to those.
I started packing then, either the M29 or the 12 bore pump, usually the .44 for handiness. Better to be equipped than a 'stat' - remote as that occurance may be.
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I have taken deer with .40, .45, .50, .54, and .58 cal. rifles, and I have grown to love the .54 best. Recoil is not bad, and it will hurt the critter on the other end. I have used a .54 Hawken to take the last 17 deer I have killed, and it has been short work with a .535 round ball and 70 gr. of FFF powder. The longest kill with this rifle was 92 paces but most were taken from 8 to 60 paces. I find the powder and charge that shoots the smallest group in the rifle, and learn to shoot it at different distances up to 125 yards. Being able to correctly judge distances is key and takes practice. I never take a shot at anything that I consider over 125 yards, and I always make sure I have a clear field of fire to the critter. I think bow hunting for several decades has helped me choose the best shot. Still, the key to a good kill is to hit the deer in the correct spot no matter what cal. you use. Good luck.
Roger Sells
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Spot-on, Roger. Finding the best charge is the key to ball placement. Too many guys out there, pick a charge they 'think' should work and use it, never developing a charge for their rifle. What they choose is rarely the 'best' for the rifle. Hitting the 'spot' becomes chancy at best.
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FWIW,
A bow-hunter got eaten near here recently. Grizzly got him, and this is out in farm country (Alberta) not in mountains.
some said "rubbish!...no grizzlys about here," so a farmer went out & took picture of 5.
Maybe same bear ate a hunter last year as well, as the same thing happened then.
Of some comfort to us using M/loaders, is the fact that the biggest bear ever shot here in Alberta was by an Indian lady with a .22.
they were contesting a path in a berry patch.
Most M/loaders have a lot more energy than a .22, but it requires enough cool to put it where it counts, and a bad shot with a big gun is better than a bad shot with a little one....providing it hits near centre!
Richard.
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I have an antique .36 I just love, and if I had one gun to survive with, that would be it.
Of course, it's NOT legal for deer, but a close shot (and it's accurate as all heck) would take one down, I'm sure. In a situation where one gun had to do it all, I would pick that .36 over any other for general game.
Since I live in the real world, I use a .50 for deer, and have a new .58 I haven't taken out yet. Of course, I have the luxury of owning several rifles and, in the old days, that wasn't always the case. You made do with what you had.
David L
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I have to vote for the .54.
I just seems to do a good job for deer/hog sized critters
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I jhave not been arouind thebig nears sine the 70's when I was in AK, I respect the blacks around here bit do not feel threatened by them from the encounteres I have had, the one thing in the wods that stikes fear in me like nothing else is the scteam of cougar.....fairly close.
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We're getting polluted with them as well, TG.
Few years ago, you never even heard of one.
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I jhave not been arouind thebig nears sine the 70's when I was in AK, I respect the blacks around here bit do not feel threatened by them from the encounteres I have had, the one thing in the wods that stikes fear in me like nothing else is the scteam of cougar.....fairly close.
Heard that only once. We have a few mountian lions around here as well and their population is growing with the influx and population explosion of whitetails and elk in the area. I'm not too concerned about them though as I'm NEVER in the bush without being armed, unlike the tree-hugging hikers. Bears are more of a problem here.
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Pumas are even gaining ground here in NW Louisiana! We have had a black one and a blond one in my neighborhood and a young one was killed just across the Red River from me last week in Bossier City! My wife and I have had several close encounters with pumas--mostly in California and Colorado, but my wife surprised the black puma in our yard one morning a few years back while going out for the paper [we live about 100 yds off a rural road]--it was by our creek. In Death Valley's Black Mts many years ago I was kept awake for a while by a screaming puma while camped on a craggy ledge at about 9000'. But it was the blue norther that almost killed me as I slipped into hypothermia [it was winter--and yes, Death Valley can kill you more than one way]. Being a field geologist has its "rewards".
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Cats are bad in some parts around here too. In southern BC - there've been some attacks in back yards - young kids playing.