AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: El Mac on July 01, 2008, 08:07:39 AM
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Stupid question perhaps, but still...I'd like to know the answer.
The rifle carried by the main character Nathaniel...what style is it? Does anyone know who built it?
Thanks...
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Well, for starters it was not correct for the era. If memory serves, the movie took place in 1757. That style of rifle is more or less an Allentown (Lehigh) style, although liberties were taken with the style to serve Hollywoods need. The barrel was a 49" Getz and the maker was Wayne Watson.
http://www.waynepwatson.com/biography.html
Welcome to the forum
Ez
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there were several long discussions on this on the old board, some interesting stories, as well as a sickening reminder of the anachronisms created by Hollywood to make money rather than teach
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man does this question seem to surface alot.instead of getting your ideas from hollywood movies open up a book .there has been disscusion about the "patriot" also on the old board.hollywood tries but they just dont get it.
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man does this question seem to surface alot.instead of getting your ideas from hollywood movies open up a book .there has been disscusion about the "patriot" also on the old board.hollywood tries but they just dont get it.
lew, I do open up books. I don't really appreciate the insinuation. My question was a stand alone question that isn't covered in the books that we routinely use - thats why I asked it. Neither am I a neophyte as to the ways of Hollywood. ;) I was just curious and like I expected, someone did have the answer.
Thanks Ezra!
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El,
Welcome, and take a pill!!!!
I believe it was a suggestion, not a shot at you.
Any way, again, welcome.
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no i wasnt taken any shots at you el mac,sometimes when reading type we misconstrue the true meaning of what is trying to be relayed.i read a post this morning in contempary section and i had to reread it 3-4 times before i actually fiqured out this fella wasnt having a god complex.sorry if you were offended that wasnt my intent.
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lew...no harm, no foul. Another cup o' joe for me and things'll be set well. Sorry if I snapped too quick.
This is a great forum. Its a wealth of knowledge and gentlemanly behavior.
I'm just here to learn and enjoy....
Thanks to all.
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back to this hollywood stuff,i had been on the trekking forums and was inquiring about why a movie has never been made about lewis wetzel,and was informed that a movie was made and rejected by big cinema production as being to bloody.i was floored.this came from a very reliable source and he had a hand in the acting and production of this.has any of you came across any info to this i would love to have it.
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Lew, are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Michael Archer? I've had more than a few discussions with him regarding Wetzel. He is quite the authority on the subject. I don't know if he knows anything about a movie, but he knows a lot about Wetzel's life.
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Too bloody for Hollywood? I guess they only like blood if it was their idea. From the little I know about Wetzel, he could could bring him own or should I say others.
Just imagine, a documentary with a Hollywood budget based on the facts.
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Bloody has to come from an Uzzi to make Hollywood!!! ::) ;D ;D
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Bloody has to come from an Uzzi to make Hollywood!!!
And proper spelling has to come from a 12 year old, not a PhD.
Chuckles,
Dave
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brian,mr.archer is who i was refering too.they had made a film and couldnt get anyone to buy it so they shelved it.i have begged him to let me get a copy,he said he couldnt do to a certain publishing company owning the rights.that is all i could get out of him.he did tell me the name of the company but it has been a while and i forget.quess i could go back through the archives of that site and find them..or email mr.archer....
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Pardon my ignorance, but aside from the Lew on this board, which Lew Wetzel are we talking about. Never heard of him in a historical reference.
Bill
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Right here:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/spring97/wetzel.html
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Bloody has to come from an Uzzi to make Hollywood!!!
And proper spelling has to come from a 12 year old, not a PhD.
Chuckles,
Dave
And it has spell check too..... :-[ :-[
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Uzzi is american for uzi, oy!!
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bill,he put all of them to shame,boone,kenton,brady.lewis wetzel reigned terror throughout the tribes in ohio.they called him "deathwind".his wilderness skills could not be matched and he could run like the deer and reload while doing it.he grew his hair to the back of his knees so that the indian if and so ever lifted his scalp would have a outstanding trophy.he had a brother named martin and he was also of the same caliber as lewis.thier father trained them from childhood and they were woodsmen.
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A movie about a guy killing "native americans" wouldnt cut it in today's world. Native American's aren't bad guys anymore. There are lots of other bad guys today that make more interesting targets for our heroes.
Hey, Id'e watch it and most of the other ALR guys but that's not a very wide audience. :P
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yes we live in a civilized society now and to make the movie you would have to go beyond the real history and hollywoodize it.they have made civil war movies but never one of custers last stand or the trail of tears.for some reason they just dont wanna make historically correct films because our past is pretty shady at the most.
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They made a Custers Last Stand movie, Son of the Morning Star I believe.
Mike Pearson
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FMagua-1.jpg&hash=4cb8eb8d2abbf88071eb668d16b27dd4b33f61e4) (http://OldFoxTraders.com/magua.htm)
Click Magua and let your imagination do the rest.
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i clicked the maqua and all i got was some music.no pics or video.
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Hey Mule Skinners- the Last of the Mohicans was great- I loved it all. There is a not known story behind the rifles. John Bivins was contacted to build 3 rifles for the Movie, I sold him the wood for them. John built 3 early 1750,s carved rifles that were as good as anything I have ever seen. After completion of the rfiles the Producer called john and wanted them to have longer barrels for Daniel Day Lewis, because of his height, wanted Bivins to weld extra barrel to them for a longer incorrect look. John said he wouldn't alter the rifles and never signed them because he was in fear of them having it done somewhere else and 100 years from now someone would say- look what John Bivins did- when Michael Mann showed up on the seen he saw the rifles and took them home to keep and then Wayne Watson built the new stuff. if you ever see the Bivins rifles you will need knee pads so as not to bruise your knees when you hit the floor. I saw incredible pictures of them that John took one night when we we were at Gunston Hall VA, Dave Westbook and Wayne Holcomb were there also. I would say we had a graaaaand time! By the way visit Gunston Hall and check out the Carving John did there " MASTERPIECE" -rsb
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I too think LOTM is a great movie, even if Hollywood didn't get it exactly right. It's a lot better movie than most of the $#@* they turn out.
That was an interesting article on Lew Wetzel. My father-in-law's middle name was Wetzel, I asked my wife where his family was originally from and she said Ohio. Hhhmmm. ??? (She also had a great-great-great uncle who fought at the Battle of San Jacinto). @!*% good native Texan gal from good stock.
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I too recommend talking to Mike Archer about Wetzel--there is a thread on Wetzel right now on the Frontier Folks site. Many historians today class Wetzel as a sociopathic killer; however many movies have been made about such persons. He was an anomaly even for his times, going beyond self defense and beyond revenge. He was an Indian killer. But so was Liver eating Johnson and they made a movie about him [Jeremiah Johnson by R Redford]. No doubt he was an amazing frontiersman, skilled and dangerous. I think a great movie lies awaiting--if political correctness does not get in the way. A man who hunted down and killed Indians for sport after the hostilities were "over" is a curious "hero".
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Hmm, yes, I have seen this topic before.
Anachronisms aside, I like the move a lot, one of my favorites. Madeline Stowe is no anachronism. Were there rifles in that movie?
I doubt there were rifles in NY at that time, although every settler in the movie had one. I would love to sink my teeth into an early NY rifle, but I suspect most of them came from PA.
Even though the movie is an historical faux-pas collection, one thing it does is bring the longrifle into the light again, a great inspiration for gun builders, old and young.
What got me started gunbuilding was Dan'l Boone and Fess Parker, Davey Crockett, etc, back in the sixties. Then I got holt of the Dixie Gun Works catalog, and I wuz histery.
Tom
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Pardon my ignorance, but aside from the Lew on this board, which Lew Wetzel are we talking about. Never heard of him in a historical reference.
Bill
He was a Virginian who scouted and killed indians. He was ahhh, "romanticised" by Zane Grey in Betty Zane, Spirit of The Border and The Last Trail. Based in part on family stories (I thjnk) the history of the area around Ft. Henry (Wheeling W.VA.).
Zane Grey aged him about 20 years I think. He has had some magazine articles written about him. By 16-18 he was pretty well able to take care of himself in the woods. There is other information out there. But Zane Grey's three novels, such as they are, got me started into MLs in my mid-teens. So when I think of Wetzel these books come to mind. HE did not do well when the indian wars ended.
Dan
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yes we live in a civilized society now and to make the movie you would have to go beyond the real history and hollywoodize it.they have made civil war movies but never one of custers last stand or the trail of tears.for some reason they just dont wanna make historically correct films because our past is pretty shady at the most.
I dunno.
Would things have been better if the Spanish had "civilized" North America like they did south and Central America and took ALL the wealth back the Europe? Would WW-II have ended as it did had this occurred? Who would have made the 300000 aircraft, the millions of trucks, jeeps and tanks. Who would have given Stalin his "second front"? Who would have stopped the invasion of Australia and India??
By todays standards EVERYONES past is shady. Maybe we should look at the other what ifs.
How about the Stalinists killing something like 100 MILLION of their OWN civilians since the Bolshevik Revolution? WE finally financially broke them. Not Britain or France or India WE did it.
America before WW-I was a far different place than America after. We have, for the most part been the defender of liberty and freedom world wide since Jefferson tool on the Barbary Pirates. We have given GROUPS of nations back their right is self-determination, at GREAT cost in lives and treasure then walked away to let them do as they pleased.
We forced Natives onto reservations. It was HORRIBLE in many cases, I cannot change that. But the tribes SURVIVED for the most part. Given the attitudes of many they might have been wiped out otherwise.
We had slavery. We paid a horrid price to end this. Some places STILL have it.
I just get tired of the dark lining of the silver cloud thing.
Dan
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lew,
I have often wondered about your name on the forum, being from wetzel county lewis wetzel has been a name i've known all my life. i fell in love with the style of a muzzleloader from looking at the lifesize statue of wetzel in new martinsville wv. i kind of hated the man for a while for the simple fact he killed a distant relative of mine. (cherokee indian) but after a while i relized hatred of a persn or a people should truly be a thing of the past.
rich
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yes we live in a civilized society now and to make the movie you would have to go beyond the real history and hollywoodize it.they have made civil war movies but never one of custers last stand or the trail of tears.for some reason they just dont wanna make historically correct films because our past is pretty shady at the most.
I just get tired of the dark lining of the silver cloud thing.
Dan
Amen Dan. Well said.
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lurch,alot of people have mixed emotions about lewis wetzel.we that live in this century can never truly know what it was like to live in the 1770's.i dont idolize lewis wetzel because he killed indians.i do it because he was the greatest woodsmen of all time and the most daring and couragious.he lived out of caves and under fallen trees and stayed away from the settlements.he was the ultimate woodsmen.grew his hair to the back of his knees so that the indian who did lift his scalp would have the greatest trophy ever.he was both feared and respected by his enemies....he had brothers and they were equally great woodsmen.martin is probably the second best known of the wetzels as he lived with the indians as a captive and eventually escaped,killed many also..alot of people overlook that native indians killed settlers for honor and prestige among thier tribes as well for their encroachment into thier lands.many indians killed whitemen and individual indians probably killed more than wetzel.but they dont go down in history as serial killers.chief logan acted his revenge and killed 10 whitemen for evry one of his family that was murdered by the greathouse party.that alone is over 50 people.
nobody knows for sure how many lewis killed..but without him the settlement of the wheeling area wouldnt have happened as smoothly as it did.he should be honored for what he did for the settlements.once the indian wars came to an end he had a hard time passing his time.he still went off on his own and brought back trophys.he probably walked a thin line between sane and insane,but how do you just turn it off.you dont!!!i have taken some heat from natives on the trekking sites i go to and right now thier is a thread on frontierfolk about lewis wetzel and i am right in the middle of it.i have been historically trekking for over 10 years and that is how i got into rifle building.you are fortunate to live in the area you do.and that statue is thier for a reason..honor it and the memory of lewis wetzel...
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Lew, Have you ever gone to the cave that lewis wetzel Lived in on wheeling creek? It is still there with a plaque that tells a version of his life.
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not yet,but will make the trip before to long.have seen pics on the net though...
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its right by wheeling hospital. The bike trail will take you to it. If you need directions let me know. I go every year to pick red raspberries along the trail. 2 5 gal buckets every year, they make the best wine.
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winemaker,yes i would like some directions.and maybe a gallion of that rasberry wine.my wife loves wine..