AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: frenchman on June 21, 2011, 06:05:56 AM
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I am using fff powder for my .45 . I have read some of the posts .I have slow fire but my touch hole is a bit big (.077 ) so it's not that. The gun has a lot of spark so i can scratch that, the action is fast so i can forget that to. The flint is well place scratch that .Do i fill the pan to the ream? Any other things i could look for. The gun always goes off. My first gun was almost has fast as a percussion. ???
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Is the vent a simple drilled hole, or is it a vent liner such as Chamber's White Lightning liner? Where is the hole in relation to the face of the breech plug?
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Lots of sparks and the cock falling fast does not always mean it lights the priming fast.
Dan
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When I am on the shooting line I always pick the vent and then fill the pan up to the middle of the vent. Powder flashes faster then it burns so I like to keep the top half of the vent hole clear. When I am hunting I fill the pan to the brim. I want the gun to go off.
Dave
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Sounds like lock is good and you always get the pan to go off but it's slow somehow, so it has to be something with touchhole placement or form. That's a huge touchhole and should go off like crazy. A picture dead on of the lock and touch hole with the frizzen open would be helpful.
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Is your gun by chance, an import? Lots of them have that small powder chamber at the breach; ie .30 chamber, then .45 bore. That would mean that although you have a larger touch hole, the powder is ,or could be a long way from the pan. You can sort of fix this by installing a coned vent liner. I have seen this slow ignition more than a few times ...kind of a slow fuse effect. Also, depending on your cleaning methods, you might have a build up of crud in there, making for slow ignition.
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Maybe the large touchhole is working against you by filling up with packed powder (maybe worse with 3F, better with 2F) or leaking some leaving a gap? I've heard/read about the "fuse" effect, where powder is packed in touch hole and has to be burned through before the main charge is ignited. I'm not so sure it isn't a myth, but I wanted to throw it out there.
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Some boys do not get that fouling rock out of the breech (they think she's clean but she ain't) touchole partly blocked pick pick pick open some (and partly closed off) equals slow ignition or none. Not saying this is your problem but surely could be ???
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What type gun/breech, if it a patent breech, it could be fowling in the patent part. Give us some more info to help us, help you.
Bill
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Here are some more things to check on or try:
Prime with 4fg or faster.
Priming with some powder against the barrel is measurably faster (15-25%) in my tests. (High vs low vent location is statistically insignificant, but powder placement is.). You need prime against the barrel.
Are sparks landing in front of the fence? -- can be checked with any camera.
Use a pipe cleaner to clean vent. Clean is huge.
I'm worried about what's inside the barrel. Some flint breeches are pains with different powder granules. Listen to Dan P about this.
There are a bunch of things we don't know about your gun. Production gun?? Custom?? Lock maker? Vent liner?
Regards,
Pletch
Check out www.blackpowdermag.com and read "Pan Vent Experiments" part way down the Feature Articles list.
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Hi Bill this is a gun that i have built with a rice barrel a L&R lock and a white lighting liner, but the more you guy's are feeding me information, it's definitely the way i am loading the pan, the hole for the vent is a bit big but centered to the pan , the action is fast the flints are great .I think Pletch may of help me on this one i know that i place my FFFF in the middle of the pan and toward the back so time reaction to reaching the liner is long and the gun goes off every time . So there is a time gap between the liner and the fire , so i will bring the fire close to the vent hole. Tomorrow its range time yahoo time to try and shoot some more. To bad the grass will have to wait this is SOOOOO important. The wife should understand
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went to the sight that is so good , just cant wait to go to the range
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I found that on two guns I had built with out touch hole liners that they were very fast on their own. The fastest I ever built was my version of an Andrew Verner using a Large Siler flintlock kit. I swear it would go off faster than a percussion gun. The second was my hunting rifle with a 13/16" barrel in .50 cal and a Bob Cochran flint lock. I put in a vent liner when the touch hole got a little too big using the Hershal H stainless rod type vent. My ignition time lengthened noticeably. I re did the vent trying to get the same position as the original hole was in and it improved some but not as much as in the beginning. The original hole was not perfectly aligned with the pan It was slightly forward of the center of the pan. Go figure.
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Frenchman, Is the delay always the same or is the gun quicker on the first shot and slow thereafter? It would help a lot to know whether that vent liner is ahead of the breechplug face or cutting into it. Do you pick the vent after loading?
Your request for help would be a lot more useful if you gave the guys more information about the configuration of the breech/vent and your wiping/loading procedures.
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Hi Jerry, i would say about the same from start to end , this morning i went to the range, i was sure it was not mechanical. It was an amalgamation of many little things, many of the members have given me some insight what to look for.
first: my loading if i used a tight patch i tend to press my powder more than usual and i would not pick the vent . This morning i tried both ways if i picked my vent on the press load you could see the difference . If i dint picked i have a hang time. So for tight patches i have to pick without question or control the way i load.
If i load with my easy load just seating the ball on the powder wow now there is a big difference even without picking the vent.
The loading of the pan ,i now used fresh ffff, and i make sure that i have it close to the liner again something i was not doing. Next my flint i did not pay enough attention to it and i now make sure it's square and clean and sharpen it when needed to get the maximum of spark . Now i clean the vent hole about every 10 shots, today it's very dry but on humid days for sure every shot . I dont swipe between shots when i do i find that i get the vent hole wet and it gives me misfires for now my only misfire comes from the flint that needs sharpening once in a while. I could say that i am on my way these are finicky toys but enjoy them so much . So to you and the rest of the members thanks, sometimes just a push in the right direction
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Frenchman,
I have just one more thing to add. A White Lightning liner is the BEST. But I've seen some people install them too deep, thus getting a thicker wall between prime and main charge.
The instructions basically say to "slightly countersink" the liner. If you go too deep with the countersink, it will make that wall a little thicker. In theory, any way. I've never had one that wasn't really fast!!
I don't believe I've ever even had to pick my vents?? They seem to self-clean!!??
Thanks Mr Chamber's!!
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I did follow the instruction to the letter while installing the liner, i made a small error while enlarging the hole , next time i will measure those small drill bits before drilling. The nipple hole is .077 so when it becomes a little bigger i will put in a new one. For now i am much happier and have learned a lot on this venture and no regrets i just love this stuff and for picking vents, around here when it gets really humid you dont have much of a choice it cakes in front of the nipple so that will be something that i will be checking on when that time comes. The rifle does not shoot FF to good to bad .But i still try different variation maybe i will hit one that will work
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Frenchman, you might want to check a couple more things for future use. First, when you do wipe between shots don't use a sloppy wet patch, just damp. Otherwise you will make wet pasty gunk and stuff it in the vent at the bottom. And don't twist the damp patch at the bottom of the bore as that will really help deposit gunk at the vent. Check to see the jag used to wipe is not too large with the patches you are using. You want the patch and jag to reach the bottom without dragging everything down there, then bunch up on the jag for the retrieve so that the major wiping is accomplished coming out of the bore. I had problems with these issues early in my flintlock learning curve but now it is pretty simple. I chucked my jag in the drill press and with a mill smooth file and emory paper gradually reduced it's diameter a little to get my patch jag combination working properly.
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IMO a too large touch hole will be a little slower than desirable as there is loss of pressure until it builds enough to set off the entire charge. Not much to go on as don't have Pletch's photo equipment. 1/16 seems good and when gets near 5/64 Or your .077 I change em.
When a flinter dry loads and he gets just the minimum amt of prime thru the touch hole you can hear the gass escape before pressure builds enough to push the ball out.
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thanks TCOMP i will keep that in mind when the mail strike is over will order a few to keep on hand for when the need to change arrives, maybe sooner than i wanted by , this comes with the learning curve
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I've been shooting a flint for 35 years and don't pretend to be an expert, but I found that putting a pipe cleaner into the touchhole and then loading the charge does two things - prevents powder from blowing out the touchhole and keeps the charge "loose" around the touchhole which, in my opinion reduces the fuse effect.
I shot a John Manton flint shotgun on the US ML Team and this thing was as fast as anything I have ever fired.
I never had the prining charge stacked against the touchhole and always took pains to lightly tap the closed frizzen toward the hole and then bump it away. I might have been extremely lucky, but in 1000's of shots had hang/slow fires on maybe a dozen or so shots.
I'm new to the forum and cannot begin to tell ya'll how much I have learned in a few short weeks.
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I don't know why it would make any difference, but it seems when I keep the sole of the frizzen wiped off, I get much better ignition. That is to say, the part of the frizzen that faces the prime, the bottom if you will.
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Glad to have you here, David. Larry & Steve have done considerable work with photographing ignition along with actual timing of various steps for achieving more rapid ignition - all interesting & valuable stuff.
I'm sure your input will be greatly appreciated.
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thanks David everything is read and keep for future reference and trials i could say that each gun seems to have it's little quark so everything is tried to find what it likes most. What fun HOOO no, now i have to go to the range again ;D
Denis
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Let me double up on what Dave Watson wrote. I leave the pick stuck in the vent while loading, holding it in place by closing the pan. Then I pull it out and prime. It goes off fast.
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Let me double up on what Dave Watson wrote. I leave the pick stuck in the vent while loading, holding it in place by closing the pan. Then I pull it out and prime. It goes off fast.
Ok, I'll be the first to mention:: We do not reccomend loading a flinter with the frizzen closed. Dangerous, very! You already know why :o
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Let me double up on what Dave Watson wrote. I leave the pick stuck in the vent while loading, holding it in place by closing the pan. Then I pull it out and prime. It goes off fast.
Make that times 3. I do it also and it works great!
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Well , it's going much much better. I am following recommendations and i could say that it's now from fast to very fast and even the shooting is getting better . It was an accumulations of many little things . Now i need to work on that measurable flinching. I am down to about 1 1/2 at 25 yards on the bench . Here is my lame excuse i have been away from shooting for a while with range time it should be fine for fall. Maybe a few chucks at he end of the summer when the fields are cut.
Gents i thank you again.