AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Cory Joe Stewart on September 17, 2011, 07:11:17 PM
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Would Chestnut make a good stock wood, for a pisto? I have only worked with chestnut for small items like boxes.
Coryjoe
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It's got a fairly coarse grain, finer than oak. Very nice natural color.
I wouldn't choose it especially for a small stock, since the grain would be so prominent to the point of distracting.
Which variety of chestnut do you speak of? American can be gotten from old barn beams and such. I have not seen any sizable American Chestnuts in my lifetime.
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I havn't either Acer. When I was in grad-school I did some research on Chestnut trees, and never saw one more than 6 inches in diameter. I have gotten some from old barns for projects. It is an online auction offering pistol stocks from American Chestnut, I am a little suspicious and would really only be interested because of the novelty of it. My grandfather talked of American chestnut trees the way some speak of ancient myths.
Coryjoe
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There's no reason chestnut wouldn't work. I've seen a few caplock squirrel rifles stocked in chestnut, and one 1860 Army with a replacement grip that looked like chestnut. Unless it was wood that had some particular meaning to me, I don't think I'd do it--as Acer has said, the grain would be distracting.
On the other hand, chestnut would make a great wood for a pistol case.
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I remember cutting out huge dead chestnut spars on our mountain woodlot as a kid. They were the largest trees in the forest judging from those spars. I have read that at one time they comprised more than a third of the forest in the Appalachians and were such prodigious nut producers that animals and humans alike were pretty much dependent upon them for large portion of their food. Because of their value as a food stock, a lot of research is ongoing crossing them with the blight resistant European variety then crossing them back to American stock repeatedly in a manner to select those with the resistance for the crosses. I understand they believe it won't be too long before they will be able to propogate the American Chestnut once again in a blight resistant strain. Young chestnuts still grow in the forests from the old roots but never live long. Maybe the gene splicing technology will be able to help out with this at some point. It would be wonderful to see huge chestnut trees producing tons of food as they apparently did not all that long ago. Lost our elms, and now the ash trees are under threat from the ash borers so there are serious issues needing solutions among the trees.
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It's soft and very splintery.
+1 on that.
If you're using salvaged antique American chestnut (super-dry stuff), everywhere there's grain run-out, you're likely to have splintering issues. My experience is they can be LARGE splinters, too, almost like de-lamination of the wood.
/MM
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The international trade in often exotic wood species sometimes brings pests and diseases our native trees can't fight off. American black walnut is currently under attack. Could be that in time we'll see something that goes after, say, black cherry or sugar maple. We just don't know. The forestry scientists then have to try to rescue us.
Everything I have made for my own home is strictly from native species. Oh, wait, there is that one thing my wife requested, but it is small and made from surplus material--rationalization, huh? Remember Jeff Goldbloom's line in THE BIG CHILL to the effect that rationalization is more important than sex? "When was the last time you went a week without a rationalization?"
I know a couple of other furniture artisans who have decided to no longer work in imported species, and to tell their clients why. I'm still using some exotics, but I don't sleep well sometimes. :-\
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1 in 4 trees in the eastern US was chestnut. I have seen some fowlers stocked in it, maybe the lightness counted for something on huge fowlers? The forest was changed when the blight caught it. Free trade is homogenizing the world's forests.
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I haven't tired of repeating myself yet... Stick to the proven winners. Maple, cherry and walnut. Perhpas a few of the other fruit woods such as pear or apple as well. There is a reason probably 99% of existing longrifles are stocked in the big three.
Jim
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When I was a kid growing up in the Mountains of extreme North Georgia, back in the 1950's, we had dead Chestnut trees all through the Mountains two feet in diameter and larger. The U.S.Forest Service sold these dirt cheap, and called them "Sogs". They're all gone now. IMO Chestnut (Castanea dentata) would be marginally valuable for stock wood. Too coarse grained, and too likely to splinter. A hundred years ago a lot of the cheaper grade furniture was made from Chestnut. A pistol stock, maybe yes. The wood can be beautiful. A rifle stock? Never!
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I haven't tired of repeating myself yet... Stick to the proven winners. Maple, cherry and walnut. Perhpas a few of the other fruit woods such as pear or apple as well. There is a reason probably 99% of existing longrifles are stocked in the big three.
Jim
+1.
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American Chestnut was one of the dominant species in Appalachia until the blight took them out. However, there is a dedicated group of volunteers, namely The American Chestnut Foundation, that is developing a blight-resistant American Chestnut by back-crossing with the natually blight-resistant Chinese chestnut. The good news is that there is now a small population of blight-resistant, 15/16ths American Chestnut/Chinese Chestnut hybrid seedlings growing in a few select spots (4 in my backyard, hooray!). From those seedlings we will select the best trees for growth-habit, nut and timber quality as foundation stock for reforestation. I probably will not live long enough to see this journey through to its intended destination but it is comforting to think that I helped out a little along the way.
The chestnut is a geat forest tree providing bountiful feed and naturally rot resistant lumber. However, the mechanical properties of the wood are not ideal for uses like gunstocks. It is an open-grained wood like oak but not nearly as dense and hard as oak. It tends to split along the grain. The closest wood to chestnut I can think of off-hand is sassafras, recently discussed here.
Best Regards,
JMC
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Growing up in the hills of east Tennessee I remember when the ridges were thick with the huge dead snags of these trees.
I read that there were several places that still had large surviving trees. Here is an interesting article about one such place.
http://www2.volstate.edu/jschibig/Jackson%20County%20Chestnut%20Survivors.htm
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http://www.gunsinternational.com/Siace-SxS-Model-Superlight-20-bore-PRICE-REDUCED-.cfm?gun_id=100088354 (http://www.gunsinternational.com/Siace-SxS-Model-Superlight-20-bore-PRICE-REDUCED-.cfm?gun_id=100088354)
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I have a Virginia Longrifle custom-made with reclaimed American Wormy Chestnut. She's too pretty to shoot !!!
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Any chance we can see some pics of your rifle, Cap'n ?
/mike
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Yes...I will post tomorrow, hopefully..
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle1.jpg&hash=e6813fa41edc2e2a5058ea1d369aa4ee214aed60)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle2.jpg&hash=792816ea7d83537ee024f7f2ebed1e1c51f48a20)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle3.jpg&hash=0535353027b7514cdd2f33cec1b806dfcef91782)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle4.jpg&hash=0a94148e59d40ae1f7b80a1a0509b89adbe4d7bd)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle5.jpg&hash=3da1fdf330c9a05b2689cc6e4a52a98b7c814154)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle6.jpg&hash=d676bd3360662b36a893794ae2fa9053638fe549)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi86%2Fcaptainmaynard%2FAmericanChestnutLongrifle7.jpg&hash=0eac1ee9823c418999fbe80e10ef8a966a1592ac)
:o As stated before...she's too pretty to shoot !!! :o
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...no such critter! but your rifle is certainly striking and has really nice architecture.
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I would have taken that stock to be ash, but never chestnut.
I don't know why but as I read chestnut I had butternut wood in my mind...oh well at least something was there... ::)
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...no such critter! but your rifle is certainly striking and has really nice architecture.
This is a Virginia Longrifle with a stock carved of American Wormy Chestnut. In 2006, I purchased a 100+ year-old reclaimed American Chestnut log that was discovered in a swamp-bog to be fitted with one a Jim Chambers lock:
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm
The swampy conditions had preserved the old wood to freshly-cut condition. In fact, the wood was still a bit green when it was shaved into a beam and kiln-dried!
The eighteenth century .58 Calibre Virginia Longrifle project is indeed using a 100% American Chestnut stock for all you Chestnut experts out there. The seller of the reclaimed American Chestnut log specializes in this.
My gunsmith, Al Edge of Old Dominion Arms was extremely excited to actually have the honor to actually assemble a longrifle using such a rare wood! I almost decided not to stain it, but the slight use of a the light coat REALLY brought out the beauty of the lines in wood!
I am very thankful that I was able to find someone that actually possessed some reclaimed American Chestnut pieces large enough to accommodate the 62"x13"x13" block of wood necessary to carve this longrifle stock. The fact that the conditions of the swamp preserved this piece of American Chestnut to a freshly-cut condition was an added bonus over other suppliers whose bulk of resources were comprized of old barn boards and beams that have greyed over the years due to decades of weathering.
The lock itself is also exceptional! When I finally had the opportunity to fire this flintlock, I hit the bulls-eye at fifty metres! The weapon looks like it just passed through a timewarp straight from some colonial gunsmith's fresh stock!
I have the feeling from my limited research, that American Chestnut was quite often used in gunsmithing during the Colonial American era. Although it was not as hard as Walnut, Oak or Hickory, it was THE dominant hardwood of Colonial America (75%) and quite hard enough to use for a rifle stock.
My theory as to why we rarely witness many American Chestnut rifles that survived 250+ years is because they didn't. Colonial gunsmiths did not kiln-dry their wood and therefore most likely most of the truth deteriorated into a lost era of history.
I have indeed, also seen original longrifles from that era that had stocks made of American Chestnut. It may not appear that this could never have been according to today's standards, but American Chestnut stocks are a forgotton piece of history...
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I was reading the post again and it reminded me years back of one of my English class students telling me that his granddad had an old rifle made from oak. Seeing the chestnut it makes me wonder if it was really chestnut.
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I was reading the post again and it reminded me years back of one of my English class students telling me that his granddad had an old rifle made from oak. Seeing the chestnut it makes me wonder if it was really chestnut.
Ask the American Chestnut Foundation about you student's grandfather's rifle. They have seen mine. My cousin spend his retirement replanting American Chestnut saplings just to watch them die.
Also, ask my supplier:
http://www.woodfinder.com/listings/002481.php
http://www.caglumber.com/index.php?option=com_admirorgallery&view=layout&Itemid=170&AG_MK=0&AG_form_paginInitPages_0=4&AG_form_albumInitFolders_0=CustomerProjects&AG_form_scrollTop=1237&AG_form_scrollLeft=0&AG_MK=0
:o
An unrelated question...is there such a thing is Wormy-Oak ???
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I've found quite a few American Chestnut in one of my favorite woods and have been keeping an eye on them for many years.The biggest of them got to about 16"-18" diameter at eye level before finally succumbing to the blight just two years ago. Its sad to see it go, but these trees keep trying and maybe someday they will develop a natural resistance to that scourge.
That's a nice looking Rifle Captain!!
Robby
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The loss of the American Chestnut was a tremendous blow to the people in the Appalachian region. Hogs were fattened for butchering on the chestnuts by roaming free, at no cost to the owners! Not to mention the chestnuts being a valuable food source for the game animals and the people as well. The Chestnut was very rot resistant and made excellent fence posts and split easily for fence rails. I can remember my grandfather showing me the remnants of two giants that once grew near my home. All that was left of the stumps was a rotted out shell around the outer circumference. Either of these stumps were big enough for me to lie down in and stretch out my arms and legs. My grandfather said they were harvested for the lumber after they were killed by the blight.
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Number 8 on this link is a historical example of American Chestnut being used in a period musket that survived the test of time for over two centuries:
http://www.11thpa.org/neumann.html (http://www.11thpa.org/neumann.html)
"No. 8: French Aid Influence, c. 1777-1783
This arm’s three American brass barrel bands with their rear-side springs copied the iron bands on the newly arriving French aid muskets. A British Long Land Brown Bess 1756 pattern, in turn, provided the lock (marked, “EDGE 1756”), trigger guard, side plate, escutcheon and barrel, which was shortened from 46" to approximate the French length of 443⁄4". The colonists supplied a chestnut stock, a simplified butt plate resembling the English stepped design, and a hand-forged replacement cock still holding a crude locally knapped flint. As with many rebel muskets, no sling swivels were provided. Use as a hunting gun after the war is also apparent from the thinning of the bayonet stud to create a front sighting blade and a later dovetail near the breech to add a rear sight."
Again, the rebelling colonials were receiving French aid via shipping locks over here. The colonists had to supply their own stocks and American Chestnut was 75% of the hardwood in the forests during that time.
This is just a single example of many. Chestnut was a righteous & plentiful stockworthy hardwood during the American Revolution...
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Cap
American Chestnut was quite often used in gunsmithing during the Colonial American era
I respectfully disagree with you assessment of Chestnut being quite often used or that it is particularly righteous. While I have no doubt that Chestnut as in your example may have been used on occasion particularly for muskets during the Rev. War I think that this would have been rare .I have studied many period gunsmith inventories and many period advertisements by gunsmiths looking for stock wood and I have never seen any mention of Chestnut. Lots of maple yes, a little walnut but not Chestnut.
I have used quite a bit of Chestnut over the last thirty years and in no way other than aesthetics would I consider it a quality stock wood.Except for the rare board it is too soft to carve and it doesn't take detail well.
Mitch Yates
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It's fun to see something different and this is a nicely crafted rifle. Based on inventories I've seen and surviving examples, its hard to argue that chestnut was used more than occasionally as a stock wood. Regardless of how many 18th century guns survived, the proportion that are found stocked in chestnut should reflect, roughly, the original proportion. And it's always possible that an unusual gun would have an even greater likelihood of surviving.
Period woodworkers were highly aware of the working properties of different hard and softwoods. An example is that furniture items were often made of many dissimilar woods for structural, not aesthetic reasons. Colonial Windsor styled chairs are still being made of 4 different woods. http://thewindsorchairshop.net/. Hickory, renowned for toughness and resistance to impact as a handle wood, was very rarely used for making handles for guns (stocks), probably because of its instability when wet, as well as its plainness. Most open pored woods are avoided for stock woods because they will wick moisture from end grain, and I believe chestnut is similar to oak in that way.
So to me it makes sense that an abundant wood available in plank form would be used on an emergency basis for stocking muskets, whether or not it met most of the requirements for a gun stock wood: ample hardness, toughness, resistance to splitting, stability with moisture changes, abundance, workability, appropriate weight, and attractiveness.
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Have been contemplating taking down a 38" plus chestnut for a friend at his farm in central pa, always wondered what a longrifle stocked in it would look like, guess i should just leave it up, until he finally wears me down to do it. Never was quite sure if it has any chinese strain in it, but I have always swore it was one of the last 100% american in pa that old!
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Well...I'm done here. Some asked about it and I shared my American Chestnut experience as well as the evidence that it was used as a stock material.. It will last for years to come, althogh it is kiln-dried.
My responses varied from "ain't no such animal", "yer' stock is OAK/not Chestnut" to "I respectfully disagree based on the expertise of my own research of stockpiles". The latter was at least nicer and less insulting.
You guys are the experts...later...
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I THINK the "Ain't no such critter" was referring to a rifle "Too pretty to shoot".
Just MY take on it.
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I'm with Dogshirt ...
I don't believe Mr. D Taylor Sapergia was insulting in any way.
"...no such critter! but your rifle is certainly striking and has really nice architecture."
Cheers.
Smoketown
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Well...I'm done here. Some asked about it and I shared my American Chestnut experience as well as the evidence that it was used as a stock material.. It will last for years to come, althogh it is kiln-dried.
My responses varied from "ain't no such animal", "yer' stock is OAK/not Chestnut" to "I respectfully disagree based on the expertise of my own research of stockpiles". The latter was at least nicer and less insulting.
You guys are the experts...later...
Cap'n, forums are for give and take. Open discussion. Nobody said anything insulting. Some expressed different views. That happens on forums. I saw several compliments on your rifle in the responses. It would be good if you stick around as you are clearly a quality builder. Iron sharpens iron. It's how we all learn. Certainly some things cannot be known with certainty, like the prevalence of chestnut stocked guns in the 18th century. Those topics make for lively and often informative debate. Anyone who is done learning is already the ultimate, or is limiting themselves.
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I have a very large American Chestnut on my property (and know where there are a good many 10-14" trees) that the ACF claims is the second largest in the state of Pennsylvania. I've been told that the largest has contracted the blight and is dying so mine will soon be the largest in the state. When and if mine succumbs before I do ;D, I intend to have the lumber milled and turned into furniture but I'll be happy if it beats the blight and survives.
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Hmmm. I also thought Taylor's comment referred to the "too good to shoot" statement.
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Well...I'm done here. Some asked about it and I shared my American Chestnut experience as well as the evidence that it was used as a stock material.. It will last for years to come, althogh it is kiln-dried.
My responses varied from "ain't no such animal", "yer' stock is OAK/not Chestnut" to "I respectfully disagree based on the expertise of my own research of stockpiles". The latter was at least nicer and less insulting.
You guys are the experts...later...
..........WOW..........that didn't last long..........