AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: hortonstn on October 06, 2011, 11:18:30 PM
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i've noticed some shooters wet their thumb and wipe off the frizzen before shooting
does this help dry it so it will spark better
just a dumb question
paul
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This thread should likely be moved to BP Shooting, but I'll give my take on the question.
If the fouling that accumulates on the face of the frizzen between shots interferes with the lock making sufficient sparks to set off the pan, you have other lock problems, besides the fouled frizzen. Yet I see shooters do this every time they get ready to shoot. I suspect it is part of their routine without which they lose consistency and concentration.
On the other hand, it can't hurt.
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The greater concern is the build-up, fowling, on the bottom side of the flint itself not on the frizzen. The bottom side of the flint is exposed to much more fowling than the frizzen. Great question. Turkeyfooter.
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Really good flintlock shooters are the guys who pay attention to details and consistently do the same thing over and over. As you noted many will either use their thumb or a rag to clean the frizzen face and pan of residue, they will then clean the flint and lightly run their thumb across the flint to check the sharpness. After the gun is loaded they will then pick the vent hole. Now, you could probably skip some or all of these steps and your gun would fire. What they are looking for is for the gun to fire exactly the same every time. No klatches, no hang fires, just consistant ignition with the fastest lock time possible.
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I am by know means a GREAT shooter, but I clean the bottom of the Frizzen and the Flint. Once while hunting deer I shot at one anterless deer and missed, reloaded, put powder in the pan closed the frizzen and at my next point to take a break checked the pan and I had no powder, the little remains of powder under the frizzen prevented a good seal or closure on the pan and the priming powder was escaping.
Glenn
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I have to laugh at myself. :D On first reading your post, I saw the elements you describe as a sequence of events prior to shouldering the arm and firing, rather than as the "caboose" in a loading ritual, if you see the distinction. In other words, I'm a hunter and was picturing myself wandering around for hours before shooting, then doing as you describe before taking the shot. Seen in the true light of day as an element of firing a multi-shot string, yeah. Cleaning the frizzen, pan and flint is a very reasonable practice, whether you see it as I do as an element of loading or the precursor to the next shot. ::)
It's early yet on this side of the continent (3:30AM) and clearly time for a second cup of coffee.
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I have lost a number of compititions due to hang bang or fustrations. I have learn to check every thing I can to insure my flintlock will fire every time. Wiping the fouling is a good start
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i've noticed some shooters wet their thumb and wipe off the frizzen before shooting
does this help dry it so it will spark better
just a dumb question
paul
I routinely wipe the pan before repriming at the range but don't anything else.
If I'm shooting a long 40-50 shot range practice session, I do stop about every 15-20 shots and completely clean off the pan/frizzen/vent/flint with alcohol on a rag, and either flip the flint over or at least lightly knapp it, etc.
For hunting, the entire set of components are cleaned/dried/knapped for each and every shot.
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While I don't lick my thumb, I do as a habit, wipe the frizzen face and the underside of the flint with my thumb. It takes less than a second and is, well, my habit.
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i've noticed some shooters wet their thumb and wipe off the frizzen before shooting
does this help dry it so it will spark better
just a dumb question
paul
If that shooter was schmutzing around with grease, oil, bacon for breakfast etc he may be greasing that frizzen more than cleaning it thataway. ::)
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Hey roger. How does that work on your cap gun. Ed
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So far, I've only seriously hunted with a capgun. I can see as RB notes, that cleaning everything before trudguing off to find another rabbit, for instance, with a flinter, might be a good idea but I'd not be wiping everything with alcohol and cleaning only just enough so the prime doesn't disappear. As far as doing it on the range or when shooting in competition, I don't wipe anything - maybe I should, but I don't and that includes the bore. I shoot until I get ignition problems, then nap the flint or do whatever is necessary to get it working again. No big deal. Wiping the frizzen isn't one of the things necessary to get the rifle to fire as fast as it will.
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Daryl, I have always respected your knowledge of ballistics etc. but I believe you are wrong about "wiping the frizzen is not one of the things necessary to get the rifle to fire as fast as it will." Powder residue certainly does build up on all areas of the lock mechanism including the frizzen and the flint. Anything that keeps the flint from scraping as much metal from the frizzen (sparks) can and will cause ignition problems. You mentioned that you shoot until you get ignition problems, i.e. hangfires misfires. How many times has this caused you a target? Most clubs have a three strike rule, so you can certainly get the gun to fire in three drops of the hammer BUT what about rattle box targets where you have perhaps 15 seconds to get off the shot or lose it? What about the hangfire caused by a couple of weak sparks glowing in the pan and finally setting of the prime. Was the hangfire caused by a dull flint, a dirty flint for frizzen or did you forget to pick the vent? You do not drive your car until the brakes fail and you crash, you inspect it at regular intervals to prevent such---I hope you do!
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Wiping the face of the frizzen, in all my years of shooting I never did this. I have wiped out the pan with a rag when it
becomes petty crappy. I can't imagine the face of the frizzen becoming so crappy that a sharp flint will not cut thru it and
scrape the frizzen, but then I am talking about shooting guns with good locks. I have seen some "cheap" production
guns where the cock would not even flip the frizzen open........I assume we are not considering these cheap things in
this conversation............Don
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My experience on this topic is similar to Daryl & Don. I've never wiped the frizzen, & only very occasionally felt the need to wipe the pan, or pick the vent. Using a White Lightening vent & an L&R lock is like the EverReady bunny, it just keeps working.
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"...only very occasionally felt the need to wipe the pan..."
Location / humidity plays a big role in this...during half the months here in central North Carolina when the humidity is in the 80-90% range, by the time I've reloaded and laid the Flintlock back down on the bench to re-prime it, the pan is glistening wet black soup...an old washcloth is standard equipment for every range trip to wipe the pan dry before priming each shot.
Not a problem during dry / low humidity of the late fall/winter/early spring months...then its dry with red flecks.
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We've also had days, like RB notes - of course, the pan gets wiped out with a rag or tissue if that happens - but I've only seen a buildup on the bottom of the frizzen, not on it's face. Seems there is never more than a smidgen on the frizzen, a single wipe of the thumb will remove it. I've not seen the flint have trouble striking sparks on the frizzen in any of my guns. We only shoot up to about 80 or 90 shots in a day - perhaps if a person shot 150, the frizzen would need wiping at some point.
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I figure that any delay in ignition (other than breakage) is my fault. I would rather clean before the delay than after it happens. This is a habit that comes from timing locks with a computer. I routinely see slow ignitions when timing that the shooter cannot detect. Since I CANNOT allow a variable to creep in, I wipe everything down regardless if it is necessary or not. Controlling variables may be more important during testing, but maybe not. I can improve consistency during tests by doing these little things. So, with the habit formed, I see not reason to change. My gut says clean and consistency go together. All this MHO.
Regards,
Pletch
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Well- there are choices in this game. I also feel, as Don mentioned, that perhaps with cheap production locks, one might have to wipe the pan.
Neither of the guns in this video had their frizzens wiped in any fashion during this day's shooting. The video was taken after at least 50 shots had been fired, neither gun, my rifle nor Hatchet Jack's smoothbore had been wipe in the bore or the frizzen. Seems they loaded and fired quite well in spite of over 50 shots of fouling buildup, in the bores and on the frizzens.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fth_ImportedPhotos00001.jpg&hash=95ddf7f9c52de4957197b171e36ede71ac9f8e0b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/?action=view¤t=ImportedPhotos00001.flv)
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I have no disagreement if the criteria you use to judge consistency are human senses. If I use a computer to judge consistency, I must use every method possible to eliminate variables. I can see delays with a computer that the shooter doesn't realize are happening. Human senses are terrible tools to assess flintlock consistency, but it's all we have in real world situations. If I had no time testing locks, I probably would not bother with some of these methods.
BTW if I would try to predict times when timing locks, it would take a 30-40% change in time to be noticeable with your ears. (ears are better than eyes for this.)
Regards,
Pletch
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I have been shooting flintlock for many many years and still look for ways to improve, ignition and fast ignition in particular ,are some of the things I look to tweek. If you read "Muzzle Loading Shooting and Winning with the Champions" by M.Vickery, W.Terry, B. Butcher,D.Davis,W.Grote,B.Charmichael,P. Allen and W.Boughton page 29 they reference the very thing you speak of wiping flint and frizzen. They recommend doing this between shots to reduce hang fires. At the club I shoot one of the shooters there brought to my attention wiping. I have been wiping for some time and will continue to wipe between shots . It does help, and so I have my daughter wiping between shots also. I also do not pick (white lightening touch hole liner) this past shoot I shot 50 to 70 shots no hang fires. Steve
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Location / humidity plays a big role in this.
You've got that right RB! We live in a virtual desert here where the average relative humidity stays between 35% & 50%. The strange part is I can shoot all day with no wiping! Just the patch wet with liquid lube is more than sufficient to keep the bore clean.
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Going to the range at first light tomorrow to keep a fine tune acquaintance with the .50cal Dickert for this year's deer season which opens end of October.
We're in a 24hr rain right now so it'll be great shooting in the morning...other than wiping the pan, it'll just be load and shoot due to the high humidity/rain conditions, where every seated PRB just wipes the bore walls clean again.
Rain days are my favorite range shooting...its usually cooler, I'm under a pole shelter so I'm dry, and the rain usually keeps everybody else away, especially at the crack of dawn.....LOL
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At the range I also wipe only after a few shots and with a rag NEVER wit my thumb. I cut myself with a flint too many times to think about.
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One of the most "telling" measures of the need to wipe in specific climatic conditions is a delay between shots. It's less a factor on the range or on big game hunts, but huge for small game hunters. It's one thing to prime a fouled pan/frizzen/flint and then shoot a minute or so later. Try letting the prime sit for a few minutes to a few hours and see if you make smoke. I do a lot of snowshoe hare hunting and shots follow that pattern. My basic rule is always to wipe everything and wipe it well. Absorbent material like cotton fabric is hard to beat both for cleaning and drying.
I've experienced FTF in spite of careful wiping, and I'm more and more convinced it's due to fouling in the vent collecting moisture and then clotting priming powder as the gun is moved and jostled in the course of the subsequent hunt. Picking the vent each time helps, but I'm pondering candidates for an absorbent/wiping vent pick to do a more thorough job.
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I'm pondering candidates for an absorbent/wiping vent pick to do a more thorough job.
100% cotton pipe cleaners
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Where's that head-slap smiley button when I need it? ::)
Thanks!
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I'm pondering candidates for an absorbent/wiping vent pick to do a more thorough job.
100% cotton pipe cleaners
'Wit' the little wires sticking out the sides. :P ::)
'
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'Wit' the little wires sticking out the sides. :P ::)
I'm really surprised you'd recommend pipe cleaners with wires sticking out...I'd worry about wear.
I've used only these 100% cotton for a dozen years now, every range trip...every cleaning session, etc.
http://pipesandcigars.com/diprpicl.html
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So, those two guys have flintlocks that may not need the extra attention, mine does and I pretty much do everything Lucky has mentioned while hunting. I check my pan of powder religiously and if I get just a little jittery about its state then out it goes and the process starts all over again and that is wipe the frizzen face and edge of the flint, sweep the pan out, pick the touch hole and pour more in. Repeat, repeatedly during the day.
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Interesting, I've never had the need for a pipe cleaner, during or after shooting, but then, I've only been shooting flintlocks for some 6 or so years. Perhaps when I have more experience I'll see the need? I do have a vent pick tht gets used once or twice at the most during a long range or trail session of more than 50 shots. Seems sooner or later I have to prick some hard fouling chunk from the vent hole. Happens more with 2f than 3F.
Oh- Roger wasn't recommending them - perhaps the ones with wires sticking out are the only ones available where he hails from. I've never seen one with more than one wire and seeing each end of it. Guess I should have smoked a pipe longer, too. I seem to be missing out.
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Interesting, I've never had the need for a pipe cleaner, during or after shooting, but then, I've only been shooting flintlocks for some 6 or so years. Perhaps when I have more experience I'll see the need? I do have a vent pick tht gets used once or twice at the most during a long range or trail session of more than 50 shots. Seems sooner or later I have to prick some hard fouling chunk from the vent hole. Happens more with 2f than 3F.
The issue I've learned to anticipate is fouling in and very close to the vent picking up moisture and making mud pies, and that in turn congealing the prime granules onto it. I can still get the prime to go off, but experience everything from FTF to hang fires. FTF results in a virtual solid plug over the vent. Just a wet country "thing" I'm sure, but one to contend with, especially when shots can be spaced an hour or more, depending on the hunt. Lots of other allowances have to be made too in a land of 120 inches of annual rainfall.
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"...especially when shots can be spaced an hour or more, depending on the hunt..."
That's why I use them hunting...if I shoot a deer early (or squirrel, etc) and want to hunt another couple more hours...I always thoroughly field clean the ML after a hunting shot and include a pipe cleaner for fear of exactly what you described...that the humidity will turn the inside of the vent to soup, then it'll clog with prime from the pan that invariably finds its way in there...if I shoot a deer and go home then its a non-issue as I'm not reloading.
I don't do that at the range as every shot is only a couple minutes apart and I'm not jiggling prime into the vent...just prime, shoulder, and fire.