AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: sirdutch on October 09, 2011, 09:42:16 PM
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Hello,
Is Hodgdon 777 in FFFG a good alternative for black powder for my contemporary flintlock? I just happen to have this on hand.
Do I need a different powder for the flash pan or will fffg work?
The label says 100 gr. vol. for a .45 bullet. Does that sound about right? I would prefer black powder but it is hard to come by locally. I could order it on line but generally there is a minimum order, hazmat fee and shipping which makes it a little too expensive, especially for the first time out.
Any recommendations would be appreciated.
Have a great day!
Meindert
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I'm at a disadvantage here because I don't know what (HODGDON 777) is, however I would like to say use (BLACK POWDER ONLY). Caution. FFFG size black powder is to coarse for effective ignition in a flint pan primer. Turkeyfooter.
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We have serious problems getting next to black powder up here, but no problem getting the subs. So a hunting but worked with 777 quite a bit to see what it would take to make it work. He was able to get good performance only one way- He dropped a 10 grain charge of Goex 3f down the bore before adding the 777, then used the same Goex 3f for prime. While I have Goex 4f on hand and he tried it, he disliked it in the bore under the 777 for the main charge due to it's tendency to blow out the vent while seating a ball, occasionally resulting in slow ignition or failure to ignite the main charge, IIRC. In our wet climate 3f has actually proven to be a more reliable and trouble free primer than 3f, so that kept him from having to use three powders.
I haven't tried it myself, but since he just moved and left me with six jugs of 777 3f, I will probably get around to it someday.
Is it worth all the trouble if you have ready access to black powder? Not on your life. Is it something to keep in mind against a day when you can't get the black? Absolutely. I'll switch to subs and keep shooting, rather than giving up in a pout when I can't get black. I could stretch a remnant pound of precious black a long ways that way.
BTW- He also tried using 777 3f for prime and main charge too, with no black whatsoever. In an hour of trying I think he got one bang.
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Is Hodgdon 777 in FFFG a good alternative for black powder for my contemporary flintlock?
NO, it is designed for inline muzzleloaders using magnum caps or shotgun primers. It may or may not ignite using 3f as a primer.
The label says 100 gr. vol. for a .45 bullet. Does that sound about right?
Again, those are published load for inlines. Triple7 is a magnum load in your flintlock, as its pressures border on those of smokeless powder.
FFFG size black powder is to coarse for effective ignition in a flint pan primer
I beg to differ as will many others. You can prime with what you shoot. I commonly even use 2f as prime when I am shooting it. Many of us experienced shooters carry only one horn and use it both to load and prime without delays, hangfires, or misfires and have done so for decades.
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Dont know much about 777 but TOF is spot on about priming with 3f and 2f. I have used it and it works just fine, especialy in the wind as 4f will blow out of your pan faster than 2f. Smylee
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From the Hodgdon website:
"To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex. "
Doesn't sound like you can get away from using some traditional black powder both in the pan and down the bore to make the 777 go off (777 must have a higher ignition temperature than traditional bp). And, I'd guess you want to avoid 777 pellets and stick with the granular form. It could be an interesting experiment, and if it did work you could stretch a pound of Goex out to 1000-1200 shots.
SCL
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These are 3 .577/450 cases that were fired with T-7 alone - no other powder used. Each time they were fired, they were cleaned, dried and tumbled. They were fired, cleaned in water with a brush, dried then tumbled in media until they shined like new. Their owner then deployed to Iraq. Upon returning, this is what he found.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FT-7cases.jpg&hash=fdc48f4c8a01694ca806c209f54dfb7066706b1d)
We've been told on this forum by people who are qualified, that the trichlorates in the phoney powders like Black Mag 3, Clear shot, Pyrodex and Triple 7 will rot your bore.
That's good enough for me. I had a number of pounds of the stuff from Pyrodex & T-7 to Black Mag 3. I threw it away years ago after learning how bad it was and that it's fumes and fouling has an affinity to iron molecules, actually disolving them from the steel. I'm a fim believer that it's good for ferilizer only.
When the mfg'r says it is not as 'corrosive' as BP - I stop listening to about anything (not proved) that the mfg'r says in the future.
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I got fair results with Clean Shot/American Pioneer FFG in my 50cal F/L.
By fair I mean about 60 to 70% of the shots fired on first try by my rough estimate. Using 4F in the pan and just granulated sub in the bore,,no extra primer load of BP in the bore.
I just tried it to see for myself. Lots of back and forth about it. I've never tried any of the other subs.
I never got the sub to ignite in the pan if I used it for the primer too.
I have an idea that a slightly larger vent hole would aid ignition with the stuff, but never got around to trying it out. Just a theory for now and will probably remain so!
No problems with cleaning or corrosion with CleanShot/American Pioneer.
I've used the CleanShot for probably 10years or more in cartridge firearms of all sorts. Never a problem with the bore rusting or the brass corroding like the pics.
Clean bore with just a wet with water patch, dry and oil. Soak brass in soapy water, rinse & dry. Been using the same 44wcf brass in my Win73 for 10years. Never lost one to corrosion. Split a few necks though,,they only last so long. Same with 32wcf , 455Webley and others.
Straight BP in a F/Lock is best. What ever granulation I'm using at the time works fine in the pan it seems though I do have one of those small brass pan primer thingys for 4f that works nice.
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Thanks to all for your responses to my post. Looks like I will be ordering some BP on line or driving to where ever I can pick some up. Any additional posts will also be welcomed.
Thank you!
Meindert
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If you live in the States, Graff's etc, ship to your door.
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Am not familiar with 777, probably can be used in an in-line. but I don't think you can fire it in a flintlock. Another thing
he mentioned was shooting 100 grains of this stuff in a 45, holy cats, that would be a super hot load. I would recommend
you find some Goex, FFF would be fine in a 45, 50 to 70 grains should work OK. FFF will also work fine for priming..........
Don
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Sirdutch: Triple 7 will work perfectly in flintlocks if you follow the instructions on the package, which say to use a booster charge of five grains of 4Fg black powder before the main charge. Then you have to prime the pan with real black powder, but I use 2Fg. See http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html. I began testing this in April 2002 and have learned that it is entirely reliable in flintlocks, but that you do need real black powder as an ignition booster. What I do is measure out the charge of Triple 7, then tap the measure to settle that powder about 5 grains (marked inside the barrel of the powder measure) and top that off with Goex 2F black. Pour that down the bore and bump the butt on the ground to settle the powder down into the powder chamber. Load the patched ball. I prime the pan with Goex 2F, but 3F or 4F work as well. I use the 2F because I prefer the coarser powder for more bulk under the flash hole. Also saves on the 4F powder. 100 grains of T7 3F is probably equal to 115 grains of Goex 3F. That is a hot load. You would be better off with maybe 45 to 60 grains of it. Here is a .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built, the targets are 90 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 at 1507 fps, 90 gr of T7 2F at 1727 fps, 100 Goex 2F at 1525 fps and 100 T7 2F at 1801 fps. You need a strong patch, such as OxYoke .020, and or an OverPowderWad with a .015 patch. Clean as you do with black powder.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/58HawkFullFlintJPG.jpg)
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Powders containing Potassium Perchlorate are significantly more corrosive than BP.
The fouling is actually more difficult the adequately remove (so as to not produce pitting) from the bore than BP fouling is.
Before someone jumps in to tell me I am wrong please don't bother. It has an ingredient, potassium perchlorate that produces fouling that is virulently aggressive against metals as Daryl's post illustrates. I have heard all the "its not that bad I have shot it for years and my gun is still perfect" stories. Yeah the guns are "perfect" until I point out the pits. I used to work for a place that made BPCRs. We had problems with people using chlorate powder, pitting the barrels in a week or two then wanting the "defective" barrel replaced... But its easy to tell what was used just by the look of the bore. Usually all the blue is gone from the bore and often from the muzzle and other parts the fouling contacts. This problem was so bad that the company recommended not using the stuff in their guns.
The fouling will produce heavy rust at humidity levels where BP will only stain bare steel black or grey in actual testing.
Finally there is no really good replacement for BP in ML arms. BP is more accurate, produces far fewer ignition problems and is less corrosive than the corrosive substitutes. The non-corrosive stuff has problems with humidity unless they have found a way to keep the powder from sucking water from the air.
All this stuff was tried in one form or another in the 19th century and was found wanting as a replacement for BP.
Dan
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I've used H777 extensively in my Ruger stainless Old Army revolver for a couple years now, & I like it! It is dramatically more energetic than bp & in the stainless revolver is super simple to clean up. I just remove the grips & dump the gun in the kitchen sink with a bit of detergent (to remove the lube) & hot water. A few minutes of scrubbing with an old toothbrush & a cotton bore mop & I'm done... the stuff cleans up in half the time it takes to clean real bp out. Using it with my flintlock sounds too complicated, needing to put a pre-charge of bp in first gets to be a pain. If real bp gets too difficult to acquire locally, I'll just make my own. As far as the corrosive issues, I'm sure careful cleaning & a good water displacing oil like WD-40 will protect the bore fine, at least here in our dry climate.
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As far as the corrosive issues, I'm sure careful cleaning & a good water displacing oil like WD-40 will protect the bore fine, at least here in our dry climate.
Yes and no. I used Pyrodex and cappers for years out of local necessity, only switching to black in recent years when I finally managed a source. But Pyrodex taught me important lessons.
Bores have to be "cleaner than clean," and even with the oil, rust can often start to develop a couple of days after cleaning, especially in the juncture where the grooves meet the lands. I was able to avoid pitting in my bores, but only with a careful swab at the range, followed by an immediate thorough cleaning back home, then a second thorough cleaning a day later. Most important of all, I checked the bore with a clean patch every day or so for a couple of weeks after that, prior to really oiling the bore for storage. It's almost as though fouling "oozes out of the pores" following the single thorough cleaning. Lotta trouble, but it can be done when there's no alternatives.
I have to add that when I finally managed some real black, I was flabbergasted at the ease of cleaning, and the cessation of the need for a second cleaning a day later to avoid rust. I never did "get" the claims of easier cleaning with subs, because in my experience the opposite is true.
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Dam if you do and dam if you dont. Real BP is getting more difficult to find i will have to do a 10 hr drive in and 10 hrs out to get some. So i will buy the most that i can. But we must adapt to changes or the sport will slowly die off. I will also do some test with these powders for just in case. Maybe, just maybe trying putting some pressure on these guy's that make the stuff, just maybe somebody will listen and create the powder that we need . There is a market out there for flint shooters. So i figure if many thousand of shooters would complane about the situation maybe they would listen more. If just a few complane they wont give d&&?* about you. But if thousands did, north America is a big market. I would be amaze to know how many flint or just black powders shooters out there. For now in-line are the cats meow but there is still a place for the rest of us and always will be so maybe it's time to bitch a bit, we hold a small part of history in our hands each time we shoot or carry one of these guns.
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Well, this thread got me thinking, so I packed my flintlock as well as my flask full of H777 to the club after lunch today to try it out. I've always relied on the "experts" who claim vehemently that the subs won't work in a flint. I fired a few shots with my normal load of 70 gr of 3f GOEX in my fullstock flint Hawken, then I loaded the same volume of H777 under the prb, primed with GOEX 4f & let rip. After 5 shots with H777, the only difference I could see was an almost imperceptible lag (& I mean very slight). Point of impact was too close to be called. I can't see any problem using H777 in my flintlock from the performance perspective & as far as cleaning, I always use a cotton mop to wash & rinse my bore, so I'm willing to bet the cost of another barrel it will clean fine. I have heard a lot of nasty stuff about Pyrodex as BB suggests & am unlikely to try it, it is well documented to be super corrosive. Too bad, it's MUCH cheaper than GOEX in these parts! Good thread, thanks for posting Meindert!
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We're told Pyrodex and T7 are both comprised of 17% trichlorates by volume. Have fun.
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Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all. This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615
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So- the MSDS shows perchlorates but in Monk's tests, T-7 didn't pit his plates.
I have no reason to doubt any one's words on this stuff, Bills or the US solider whose brass rotted over a year's period of sitting (the ctg. brass picture). Consider the brass cases also contain tin and zinc in their composition. I had some cases do the same that had been fired with Pyrodex, so I saw the results being similar if not the same - with the brass cases.
The corrosive primers of the current pre, non-corrosive primer era had chlorates in their composition. Over a peirod of time, they rotted the bores of countless rifles.
I will continue to not use any of the phoney powders.
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Thanks for that interesting link bfg, there are lots of "experts" in this hobby. I'm going to play with H777 for a while & form my own opinion. It works absolutely fantastic in my Ruger Old Army revolver & I'm not disappointed with my initial trial in the flint rifle today. Much more experimenting is in order for sure. Experience is the best proof. If H777 does corrode my bore, no great loss as I have a Rice 58 cal barrel I plan to replace the current 50 cal GM barrel with anyway. I am encouraged by my initial results.
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Once again. Thanks for all the posts.
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. The suggestion that we need to experiment with alternatives in the event BP disappears and and the suggestion that we give voice to the manufacturers to produce viable non-corrosive alternatives that we can depend on stand out.
Meindert
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Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all. This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615
I believe that later research by MM has changed this finding.
Flash some on a cleaned and polished steel plate using a hot wire for ignition.
Then expose it to the air for a day or so.
Try the same test at the same time with BP fouling. Just be sure not the cross contaminate the samples
sirdutch
A lot of people spent a lot of time trying to find "viable alternatives" back in the 19th century, the only one is Smokeless and like all the subs its also useless in a flintlock. The current substitutes are all remakes of failed projects of the past. But idiotic Federal Explosives laws have made them popular since they have made the sale of BP difficult for the seller.
For no good reason I might add. But they can so they do. Gasoline is far more dangerous and powerful than BP.
Dan
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idiotic Federal Explosives laws have made them popular since they have made the sale of BP difficult for the seller.
For no good reason I might add. But they can so they do. Gasoline is far more dangerous and powerful than BP.
Dan
Dan, your government doesn't have the market cornered on "idiotic". Our supreme dictators in Canada with their infinite wisdom have created laws that require no license or registration at all for a flintlock rifle but create such a miserable bureaucracy for powder dealers & suppliers that few will carry black powder anymore. The cost of powder has gone through the roof & many areas pay well over $30/pound for plain old GOEX! That's why I decided to use H777 in my ROA pistol & why I tried it in my flintlock rifle yesterday. I suspect that short of making my own black powder, the subs will be all we can get in the near future!
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idiotic Federal Explosives laws have made them popular since they have made the sale of BP difficult for the seller.
For no good reason I might add. But they can so they do. Gasoline is far more dangerous and powerful than BP.
Dan
Dan, your government doesn't have the market cornered on "idiotic". Our supreme dictators in Canada with their infinite wisdom have created laws that require no license or registration at all for a flintlock rifle but create such a miserable bureaucracy for powder dealers & suppliers that few will carry black powder anymore. The cost of powder has gone through the roof & many areas pay well over $30/pound for plain old GOEX! That's why I decided to use H777 in my ROA pistol & why I tried it in my flintlock rifle yesterday. I suspect that short of making my own black powder, the subs will be all we can get in the near future!
Yeah we have only one dealer in Billings that I know of, city of 80K plus. Used to be able to buy it almost anywhere. There were no accidents. Have been none in shipping. But its an "explosive"...
Dan
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Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all. This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615
I believe that later research by MM has changed this finding.
Flash some on a cleaned and polished steel plate using a hot wire for ignition.
Then expose it to the air for a day or so.
Try the same test at the same time with BP fouling. Just be sure not the cross contaminate the samples
Dan
Dan,
First, they very well could have changed the formula (I vaguely recall reading something to that effect), making it either more or less corrosive. I certainly don't doubt Daryl's case corrosion either, although it doesn't correlate well with the other information; perhaps it was a different formula or something like that?
I'm willing to try an experiment and put the results up, and encourage others to do the same. One addition I would propose is a second group of plates "fired", let sit for a couple of hours then cleaned and oiled, and perhaps that test could be repeated twice a week for a month or something like that, to simulate use? I really would like to know the truth of this matter, and it doesn't affect me emotionally either way, though I feel there is a little bit of a reactionary, emotional response any time these substitutes are mentioned. As many have already brought up, BP is not getting easier to acquire, and I for one will burn Pyrodex (note this is a hypothetical last resort) and change barrels every year if that is what it takes to keep shooting, but it would be nice to get an idea of the alternatives before we are forced to adopt one based on necessity. Perhaps, in a twisted way having an alternative makes BP more viable, if for some unknown reason the BP ban were to be senseless and based on ulterior motives, although of course that could never happen in America :)!
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I have no iron in this fire, either. I want to kow if it is not corrosive -ie: the marketer (Hodgdon makes NO powder- they sell it only) says this, "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - I do not trust them, nor do I trust most mfg'rs. I already know chlorates are bad - perchlorates contains something like double or triple the oxygen of normal cholorate or something like that so more oxygen means to me, MORE oxidation, so I assume they are worse. What exactly does the per in trichlorate mean as opposed to chlorate. I asked a company if their phony powder had chlorates in it, no, they said in direct mail to me. Hodgdon then had it noted in an article in their manual, which said it contained perchlorate. So - no it doesn't have chlorate, it has perchlorate - see, they didn't lie - in their own mind - no, it wasn't Hodgdon. But see what I mean about mfgrs'? Which manufacturer doesn't make the biggest, fastest, slowest, cheapest, longest, whatever-est THING- just trust them, they wouldn't lie to you.
Obviously, I'm not a chemist. There are some things we know - we know chlorate primers (pre-non-corrosive primers)are corrosive - as they are/were blamed for rotting barrels for decades - oh no, corrosive primers - pitted the full length of the bore to deep pits full length - they then said, you have to clean with urine if no water available, etc, etc. Oils will not neutralize the corrosiveness of chorate fouling. People then as today, used motor oil - good stuff, yes - for your motor not so good for the rifle - the back-hills lubes were and even today, are used across North America. People think oil is oil.
So - how much chlorate is in a single rifle or shotgun primer - compared to how much cholorate or perchlorate in a 100gr. charge of phony powder? Remember, it's a powder that derives it's strength from the chlorates - OK - sorry - trichlorates? That's the sort of thing that gives me cause for pause. Maybe it was bad in ctg. guns because the people who owned them, didn't clean them properly - as we clean our BP guns- right- we all removed the barrels and flush clean? hmmm = = Of course, I well remember the gun writers telling us that Pyrodex (which also has chlorates or trichlorates) was not only like a smokeless for black, you didn't have to clean your gun after shooting it, it shot so cleanly. Well, we know how THAT went. Makes good copy and sells a LOT of phony powder - for a while.
What's good and what isn't?
We come to rely on people like MMonk - Ogre - people who've done the tests without a monetary iron in the fire.
I'm open to hearing some of the 'new' tests.
How about, how does the phony powder effect the various barrel steels commonly used - ie: how does it effect the various alloys and chemicals inside the steels?
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You guys have a lot of passion on the subject and I'm learning a lot. With all the talk by some on changing out barrels as a result of using corrosive powders, I was wondering how I would change out a barrel on my rifle. Do these things come in standard sizes? I don't know who made my rifle as I bought it from a friend who bought it at an auction many years ago. It is not a production rifle. I need to take care of her.
I'm thinking that I need to buy more Goex. I bought 3 lbs. today at the only local supplier in a three county area here in Southern California. Maybe I need to go back for more.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1176.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx329%2FMeindert12%2Fphotos021.jpg&hash=e8b66354bcaec38a81047ba2556f682ce0da2e9b)
Meindert
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Pyrodex and 777 are completely different powders; pyrodex does have potassium perchlorate, but T7 maybe not so much, if any at all. This post by Mad Monk sums up the subs pretty well:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78615#msg78615
I believe that later research by MM has changed this finding.
Flash some on a cleaned and polished steel plate using a hot wire for ignition.
Then expose it to the air for a day or so.
Try the same test at the same time with BP fouling. Just be sure not the cross contaminate the samples
Dan
Dan,
First, they very well could have changed the formula (I vaguely recall reading something to that effect), making it either more or less corrosive. I certainly don't doubt Daryl's case corrosion either, although it doesn't correlate well with the other information; perhaps it was a different formula or something like that?
I'm willing to try an experiment and put the results up, and encourage others to do the same. One addition I would propose is a second group of plates "fired", let sit for a couple of hours then cleaned and oiled, and perhaps that test could be repeated twice a week for a month or something like that, to simulate use? I really would like to know the truth of this matter, and it doesn't affect me emotionally either way, though I feel there is a little bit of a reactionary, emotional response any time these substitutes are mentioned. As many have already brought up, BP is not getting easier to acquire, and I for one will burn Pyrodex (note this is a hypothetical last resort) and change barrels every year if that is what it takes to keep shooting, but it would be nice to get an idea of the alternatives before we are forced to adopt one based on necessity. Perhaps, in a twisted way having an alternative makes BP more viable, if for some unknown reason the BP ban were to be senseless and based on ulterior motives, although of course that could never happen in America :)!
If they changed it I would think there would be a new patent.
Besides the MSDS shows Potassium Perchlorate.
Given my experiences in testing and guns that have been used with T-7s more corrosive brother I have no interest in either. Then there are the horror stories passed on to me by others. Especially those that believed the gun writers who wrote it was "non-corrosive".
So far as "mirror" bores used with Pyrodex. For me this would be a first since driving from the range to home to clean is enough to set up etching. But as I stated most people don't know what the initial stages look like and would not recognize it except with magnification.
In TCs with their fouling traps I am sure I can find some corrosion if the breech was removed or a bore scope used. Its amazing what you can find in a "mirror" bore if you really look. Even a brand new one.
Dan
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Years ago [ about 18 !!!!] I wrote to Sam Fadala about my experience with the then popular alternate.
Clean well, come back the next day and get a dirty patch. Clean again, come back the next day and still get a brownish patch , and on and on. I kept the patches over the course of a week of this, stapled to a sheetof paper...the first patch down the bore for a week. That is how long it took to get a clean patch.
It was as though the stuff had gotten into the metal itself. Since I had been using it for a year, it probably had. If I had to use the stuff, I'd clean " rigorously" and immediately.
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So far as "mirror" bores used with Pyrodex. For me this would be a first since driving from the range to home to clean is enough to set up etching. But as I stated most people don't know what the initial stages look like and would not recognize it except with magnification.
In TCs with their fouling traps I am sure I can find some corrosion if the breech was removed or a bore scope used. Its amazing what you can find in a "mirror" bore if you really look. Even a brand new one.
Dan
Well, I'm convinced that you're convinced...special high magnification equipment, labratory testing and all that, etc.
But the rest of us mere mortals simply live with day-to-day reality...and reality seems to be that hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of hunters/shooters have used Pyrodex for almost a quarter of a century without this concern having become a national issue.
And while thoughts of testing this or that on a steel plate, possibly leaving it outside in the elements on a picnic table for two weeks untouched might sound impressive, its not reality...not real world...nobody treats a ML like that.
And yes...I kept my bores looking like a mirror...that you can take to the bank...steaming hot soapy water...same principle as a dishwasher.
;)
Pull the breech or bore scope. LOOK. Did the bluing disappear from the bore? Did it get very white looking?
Yes hot water IS the only treatment that works. But as I stated in the previous post even dwell time between shots at the range or travel time can cause problems. A magnifying glass or Optivisor is all that is needed. But the person has to LOOK.
I worked in the field of BP arms as professional, startng 30 year ago, in fact I still do, I know what the stuff does and you are not the first person to make the "my gun is not damaged" claim. Its the mantra. But in most cases probably 90% plus they are wrong on even casual examination.
This is not new. There was a writeup about a bore ruined OVERNIGHT when the owner postponed cleaning because he was taking his wife out and instead dosed the bore with original Hoppe's #9. By the next morning he needed a new barrel. This appeared in Rifle or Handloader Magazine probably before most people here ever heard of the stuff.
There are large numbers of mass produced rifles out there, TCs and others with damage that precludes using BP since the rougher bores foul horribly with BP and once pitted the process is unstoppable.
I know an EXTEMELY experienced guy who used it in a 1869 TD Springfield and it took a YEAR of cleaning to get the after rust stopped. This was maybe 15 years ago.
A friend used to work in a gunstore in CA. They shot a Ruger Old Army with the stuff and did not clean it. It was widely "known" the be NC at the time. In a week or so the cylinder would not turn. Yeah they should have cleaned it. But BP will not do this in this time frame.
Dan
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Mr Meindirt,
I'd just stick to the black. I've followed this thread from the beginning and am convinced that the subs are probably more a PITA then anything. Save up some coin,buy some Goex in bulk and blaze away! A 25lb box lasts me better then a year,and I shoot lots. Good luck in your quest.
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My 2-cents: I had no BP experience and was not aware of forums when I ordered my "kit", the seller stated he used Pyrodex, "Works great in my flintlock" he says so I bought a $#@* load of Pyrodex RS and a temp. flintlock to use until my "kit" was done. I put an L&R lock in the gun to give reliable spark, only to find, with Goex FFFFg in the pan, that the Pyrodex was going off 80% of the time and always with a substantial lag. I switched to black powder and the gun goes off when desired now. That's just my personal experience.
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Dan and Daryl,
I agree about the potassium perchlorate in 777 MSDS. Monk acknowledged that in the post I linked to, but said he couldn't find much of any of it, and that it didn't pit the plates (brass or steel)? Since all I remember about high school chemistry is that my lab partner was a cheerleader (sadly, she was a senior and I was a tubby sophomore; at least she was friendly and smart to boot -- an honor to that short skirt), I can't add to his chemical analysis. I would think the percentage makes a big difference, though. The odd thing about that 777 MSDS is that it shows the same components as Pyrodex (which appears to be extremely similar to BP, with the addition/substitution of the potassium perchlorate and some kind of graphite coating), while it is certain that 777 is primarily a completely different compound based on sugar of some type. I agree the sub. manufacturers aren't entirely forthcoming in their marketing, but when has that ever happened? My truck makes a funky noise while driving under certain conditions, and it appears to have been a common problem for around 10 years with that transmission, yet that never was in any of the advertisements :)! On the other hand, they are liable for material problems, so it is hard to believe that all subs are instantly corrosive under all conditions: perhaps certain temperatures and humidity levels are important, and then there is the matter of prompt and thorough cleaning and possibly reactions with some cleaning solutions or lubricants. Fundamentally, BP is the best/easiest choice simply because it is the longest tested and best understood and (for many of us) the traditional/historical choice; that, however, does not mean that any possible sub. is inherently bad or even worse than BP from a purely objective/functional standpoint. Those that are interested in an alternative for whatever reasons should treat each individually and evaluate it on its own merits, just as we do different brands and incarnations of BP (I believe that some of it was also more corrosive in the past than it is now).
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Dan and Daryl,
I agree about the potassium perchlorate in 777 MSDS. Monk acknowledged that in the post I linked to, but said he couldn't find much of any of it, and that it didn't pit the plates (brass or steel)? Since all I remember about high school chemistry is that my lab partner was a cheerleader (sadly, she was a senior and I was a tubby sophomore; at least she was friendly and smart to boot -- an honor to that short skirt), I can't add to his chemical analysis. I would think the percentage makes a big difference, though. The odd thing about that 777 MSDS is that it shows the same components as Pyrodex (which appears to be extremely similar to BP, with the addition/substitution of the potassium perchlorate and some kind of graphite coating), while it is certain that 777 is primarily a completely different compound based on sugar of some type. I agree the sub. manufacturers aren't entirely forthcoming in their marketing, but when has that ever happened? My truck makes a funky noise while driving under certain conditions, and it appears to have been a common problem for around 10 years with that transmission, yet that never was in any of the advertisements :)! On the other hand, they are liable for material problems, so it is hard to believe that all subs are instantly corrosive under all conditions: perhaps certain temperatures and humidity levels are important, and then there is the matter of prompt and thorough cleaning and possibly reactions with some cleaning solutions or lubricants. Fundamentally, BP is the best/easiest choice simply because it is the longest tested and best understood and (for many of us) the traditional/historical choice; that, however, does not mean that any possible sub. is inherently bad or even worse than BP from a purely objective/functional standpoint. Those that are interested in an alternative for whatever reasons should treat each individually and evaluate it on its own merits, just as we do different brands and incarnations of BP (I believe that some of it was also more corrosive in the past than it is now).
The data he sent me in PDF form has significant corrosion.
I will have to call him maybe tomorrow. Weather should be bad enough to keep him off his bike...
People who want to think the amount used makes a difference should look at any Garand or 03 Springfield (or other military rifle) that was shot with chlorate primers. The primers have about 1/2 a grain of Potassium Chlorate and pitted bores horribly sooner or later since nobody flushed them with water. The active ingredient in the fouling is basically table salt. But its forced into every nook and cranny of the bore under high pressure.
It sucks up water from the air at humidity levels where BP fouling is not even corrosive. It holds the water and corrodes the surface.
I do not think that either powder will work if all the Potassium Perchlorate were removed.
If they have changed the formula they have had to replace this chemical with something similar. I do not think they can make it non-corrosive without changing it to a nitro powder.
Dan
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I'm certainly no scientist or chemist and reading all the back and forth leaves me wondering more than knowing.
..but in my somewhat unsupervised youth,,'white powder' was simply made with suger & potassium salt.
It worked pretty well as a form of BP and made some pretty fancy home made fireworks too when mixed with shop dust from the floor sweepings (steel, brass, aluminum filings etc).
I think potassium salt is nothing more than potassium chlorate or maybe perchlorate,,(my lack of science showing again)
Could all or some of this sub BP powder be nothing more than that, with maybe some other refinements thrown in for burning control and smoke etc?,,though it did smoke good too!
Some kids called it candy powder.
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i'm new to this thread, but have you tried to go to a C.W. REENACTMENT to ask thoes guys?? i have bought b.p. by the case of 25lbs. to use in my 1862 richmond, and also have found several guys that will sell some at a good price[$15. to $20.00]. also there quite a few powder sellers in the west that sell mixed cases. several av in mags such as muzzleloader, muzzle blasts[ NMLRA assot.]. i can give addresses if interested.
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I'm certainly no scientist or chemist and reading all the back and forth leaves me wondering more than knowing.
..but in my somewhat unsupervised youth,,'white powder' was simply made with suger & potassium salt.
It worked pretty well as a form of BP and made some pretty fancy home made fireworks too when mixed with shop dust from the floor sweepings (steel, brass, aluminum filings etc).
I think potassium salt is nothing more than potassium chlorate or maybe perchlorate,,(my lack of science showing again)
Could all or some of this sub BP powder be nothing more than that, with maybe some other refinements thrown in for burning control and smoke etc?,,though it did smoke good too!
Some kids called it candy powder.
The sugar powers are a separate issue and are indeed in production but they, though not corrosive, have other problems but are apparently improving.
Potassium Chlorate is a detonating compound IIRC, at any rate it was used in early percussion caps and in some primers until the 1950s or even later since it made a very consistent primer with a very long shelf life.
Dan
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Well, after I last added to this thread, I wrote Hodgdon for some info. I already got a reply & I quote:
"The internet is full of “experts” who will express their opinions as fact and crucify anyone who would dare to speak the truth. They attack almost everything at one time or another and tend to “Bully” anyone who has something constructive to say. In short, the internet is now of no value when it comes to firearms.
Pyrodex is no more corrosive than blackpowder. Triple Seven is much less corrosive than black powder or Pyrodex as the Triple Seven has no sulfur. The sulfur in blackpowder and Pyrodex is the major cause of corrosion in the residue of both Pyrodex and blackpowder. The rumors about Pyrodex being so corrosive started back 35 years ago when some gun writers put out articles saying there was no need to worry about cleaning after shooting Pyrodex because it was not real blackpowder and would not harm your guns. Of course, there were many rusted guns when this advice was followed. We have been educating people about the need to clean from day 1 but the rumors keep on. Some of those who repeat the rumors are just internet shooters and do not actually shoot, they just like to play the expert. Sometimes we find our competition behind it on the forums. But, the truth is, if the firearms are cleaned after use, there is no problem. If they are not cleaned, rust occurs.
As far as the flintlock rumors go, you nailed it. If people use the same method you have tried they will have the same results. We do not claim that the ignition will be as fast as with blackpowder but it can be done it needed.
Thanks for taking the time to ask. We appreciate it.
Mike Daly
Customer Service Manager
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder"
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Thanks for taking the time to research this, and for sharing. I, refer back to my own experience, not taking the subjective view of those who are in the business of selling the stuff. My guns told me that they didn't like it, and that's good enough for me ;D
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Thanks for taking the time to research this, and for sharing. I, refer back to my own experience, not taking the subjective view of those who are in the business of selling the stuff. My guns told me that they didn't like it, and that's good enough for me ;D
Just teasing here Bob, but maybe you better review your cleaning technique? ;) Actually, you live in a much more humid area than I do & I recon that makes a huge difference in the end results.
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I have no iron in this fire, either. I want to kow if it is not corrosive -ie: the marketer (Hodgdon makes NO powder- they sell it only) says this, "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - I do not trust them, nor do I trust most mfg'rs. I already know chlorates are bad - perchlorates contains something like double or triple the oxygen of normal cholorate or something like that so more oxygen means to me, MORE oxidation, so I assume they are worse. What exactly does the per in perchlorate mean as opposed to chlorate. I asked a company if their phony powder had chlorates in it, no, they said in direct mail to me. Hodgdon then had it noted in an article in their manual, which said it contained perchlorate. So - no it doesn't have chlorate, it has perchlorate - see, they didn't lie - in their own mind - no, it wasn't Hodgdon. But see what I mean about mfgrs'? Which manufacturer doesn't make the biggest, fastest, slowest, cheapest, longest, whatever-est THING- just trust them, they wouldn't lie to you."
Harry - you aren't the first to contact Hodgdon to see what they'd say. I've a friend on another forum who contacted them a year ago and they said to him, exactly what I said above and what they sent to you. Note above quote from my post to this thread "not as corrosive as black powder fouling" - perhaps you didn't see it.
What's the first thing a Lawyer does to a witness on the stand? Like I said - fill your boots. I for one, wanted to know the truth, not what the person selling it was spouting. The best, the fastest, the slowest, the smallest, the biggest, the least corrosive.
At least the Russians didn't lie; 'Ve haft da largest mikrrrochips een da verlt".
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Daryl & Daryl,
The comments regarding chlorates versus perchlorates, etc.
The difference between chlorates and perchlorates is meaningless when it comes to bore corrosion issues after shooting.
potassium chlorate has 3 atoms of oxygen while the perchlorate has 4.
The point is that both leave potassium chloride as a product of combustion. During powder combustion they simply give up their atoms of oxygen to promote the combustion of the fuel.
Any chloride salt in the bore after shooting may cause pit corrosion of the bore's surfaces given the right conditions. Mainly moisture in the air in the bore. The tiny crystals of potassium chloride, on the bore's surfaces, will form electrolytic corrosion "cells" on the surface of the metal when the surfaces of the crystals become moist or wet from moisture in the air in the bore.
Protective films applied in the bore may not be thick enough to totally cover or encapsulate the crystals of potassium chloride leaving them some access to moisture in the air in the bore. This allows the crystals to form corrosion cells.
Going back a good number of years.
Two well known writers were paid to write on the powder in question. One article stated that the powder contained a rust inhibitor.. That is true to a point. During powder combustion the rust inhibiting chemical is destroyed. So while it might act as a pre-combustion rust inhibitor it cannot do so as a post-combustion rust inhibitor since it was destroyed during powder combustion.
What was being claimed for some powders back in the early 1980's is why I got into all of my lab work on them. I was getting a bit tired of manufacturers treating us like a bed of mushrooms.
E. Ogre
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Daryl, while I don't accept Mike's note as gospel truth, I do agree with his assertion that good cleaning practices are key to corrosion prevention. I have no concerns about using Triple 7 in any of my guns & will likely use it when real bp is regulated out of retail outlets. I wipe the bore down with Hoppes #9+ when I'm finished shooting and ALWAYS wash my gun with hot, soapy tap water before I eat supper. Cleaning my guns comes before feeding my face! ;)
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Harnic, the bottom line for me is that my first hand experience doesn't lie...it supports their Email reply to you, and I have no affiliation with Hodgdon or any manufacturer for that matter.
Good to know RB. I like to get a variety of opinions, but I'm like you, "first hand experience" is the best information. I'm going to shoot several cans of it thru my flintlock over the winter & see what happens. I'm pretty anal about cleaning my guns, so I rather expect no harm will occur. I am planning to change barrels on my rifle any way, so I'll put that job off til next spring, then I'll pull the breech plug to get a good look at things. Thanks for your comment.
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After a rather extended phone conversation with E. Ogre I have come the the conclusion that the formula being discussed has been changed in a way that is not reflected in the original MSDS and that it is more than an "improved" Pyrodex. Why they would indicate this is simply an improvement to the old product when it might be something else is not something I intend to go into here other than to say.
There are major differences in Pyrodex and T7 that are not reflected in the MSDS or other official paperwork it would seem. But if it were too different "officially" the hoop jumping gets much worse for the maker. So its only an "improvement". But the "improvement" was substantial and apparently resulted in all the chlorate producing components being removed regardless of what the MSDS says.
So its likely far less corrosive than Pdex and might well be less corrosive than BP.
What it does is give the in-line shooter, the intended user, a propellant that is less dangerous in the modern in-line than smokeless but gives higher velocity than BP or Pdex. Its what the modern ML hunter wanted. Something to make his ML more like his 270.
But as Ogre indicated above the level of BS and manipulation of testing and quasi or outright falsehood in the making and sale of ML products (guns, propellants, flints, nipples, lubes, bullets etc etc almost all "new and improved") is not widely known to the consumer. But its not safe to take any manufacturers word on anything. Even in an MSDS it would seem.
But people will believe what they want to believe or what is convenient for them.
As a result there are people who will swear to things that are at odds with things that I and others who work(ed) in the industry in one way or another know as fact based on actual experience.
Dan
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Dan, I have been corresponding with E. Ogre via e-mail as well & he is a valuable resource to all! He has giving me a lot to chew on as well, but nothing I've stated I plan to try has changed. A very interesting man to be sure! I am still of the belief as we have discussed here that prompt cleaning will reduce/eliminate any risk of potential corrosion caused by H777. All of these subs are primarily offered to the benefit of in-line shooters, but with legislation heading where it seems to be, it behooves us to be prepared to use what's available if the day comes when real bp is banned. As has been stated, there is a lot of self-serving misinformation floating about & it's up to all of us to weed through it all & pick what we can believe to experiment with. Great topic! Lots to think about.
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Dan,
Thanks for the update and for doing that phone work.
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Great topic!. Although I never intend on using subs, it's good to know what is going on with them.Anything that is salt or chlorate based stays clear of JP Beck,lol. BTW,chlorates in my business eats stainless pipes.(clo2)
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With legislation heading where it seems to be.......don't give in !!!!!
Anyway, I wondered if the question of pressures has come up, regarding these "powders"
Since modern inlines have modern steel barrels etc, and my flintlocks are mainly "swamped " barrels of the sort that some say are unsafe even with BP.; I'd like to know about press.curves etc
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Bob, there's no question subs generate more pressure & as you point out, likely have a very different pressure curve. The 70 gr equiv load I tried of 3f H777 seems very similar to 70 gr of real bp as the point of impact didn't change, but in my Ruger Old Army revolver, I have chronographed a substantial difference in velocity which has to translate to higher pressure. Maybe the vent in my rifle helps equalize the pressure? Maybe E. Ogre can pipe in here & offer information on pressure curves with subs? I need to take the Chrony out next time I shoot subs in my rifle & test for any variances in velocity between the 2 powders.
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We have serious problems getting next to black powder up here, but no problem getting the subs. So a hunting but worked with 777 quite a bit to see what it would take to make it work. He was able to get good performance only one way- He dropped a 10 grain charge of Goex 3f down the bore before adding the 777, then used the same Goex 3f for prime. While I have Goex 4f on hand and he tried it, he disliked it in the bore under the 777 for the main charge due to it's tendency to blow out the vent while seating a ball, occasionally resulting in slow ignition or failure to ignite the main charge, IIRC. In our wet climate 3f has actually proven to be a more reliable and trouble free primer than 3f, so that kept him from having to use three powders.
I haven't tried it myself, but since he just moved and left me with six jugs of 777 3f, I will probably get around to it someday.
Is it worth all the trouble if you have ready access to black powder? Not on your life. Is it something to keep in mind against a day when you can't get the black? Absolutely. I'll switch to subs and keep shooting, rather than giving up in a pout when I can't get black. I could stretch a remnant pound of precious black a long ways that way.
BTW- He also tried using 777 3f for prime and main charge too, with no black whatsoever. In an hour of trying I think he got one bang.
A few years ago I noticed anew shooter struggling to get ignition with his flinter. We were trying to do our own thing at this shoot. Finally found he was using either said 777 or pryrodex. We gave him some Goex and solved that problem.. Trouble is haven't seen him since. ::)
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Great topic!. Although I never intend on using subs, it's good to know what is going on with them.Anything that is salt or chlorate based stays clear of JP Beck,lol. BTW,chlorates in my business eats stainless pipes.(clo2)
As I understand this phenominum, Vomitae - it is due to the chlorate's anfinity to the iron molecules inside the stainelss itself that causes this as I understand it. Ogre noted once about a cat-walk above some vats of chlorate, collapsing due to being eaten from within. The mere 'fumes' were enough to disintegrate the iron mlecules inside the stainless. He hoted the stainless upon examination appears to be honeycombed. Who knows how long this took - does it really matter?
This in itself promotes my caution towards chlorates.
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A barrel isn't supposed to last forever Daryl. After all, we have to support our many fine makers & replace ours from time to time! ;)
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Sure - wanna buy me a 16 bore to replace the 14? Less recoil & less lead, but still just enough of each.
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Bob, there's no question subs generate more pressure & as you point out, likely have a very different pressure curve. The 70 gr equiv load I tried of 3f H777 seems very similar to 70 gr of real bp as the point of impact didn't change, but in my Ruger Old Army revolver, I have chronographed a substantial difference in velocity which has to translate to higher pressure. Maybe the vent in my rifle helps equalize the pressure? Maybe E. Ogre can pipe in here & offer information on pressure curves with subs? I need to take the Chrony out next time I shoot subs in my rifle & test for any variances in velocity between the 2 powders.
When this 777 first came out and I took it apart and identified what was in it I had questions on possible pressures. Beyond any question Hodgdon looked at this closely during the experimental batches leading up to the final product.
I noted that in my mule ear .50 cal round ball rifle the 777 came close to the then available Swiss powder. That told me that the 777 produced pressures close to those seen in the Swiss powder. Nothing to get excited about in most ml guns.
The only thing that rattled me was if these "strong" powders are used in one of the Spanish-made in-lines there could be problems. But in our ml guns with the fixed breech plugs I could see no danger.
Hodgdon put a lot of thought into this 777 powder. When I first tested it I remarked that if bp were to become unavailable I would switch flinters over to percussion and shoot the 777 in them. Good velocities even in reduced charges and easy cleanup. But if one gets carried away with the charge sizes one may expect to see some baked on fouling in the bore ahead of where the projectile sat on the charge. Which I saw in some of my Swiss powder testing. If you get powder combustion gas temperatures up close to the melting point of potassium carbonate (in the residue) you will see this fusion and sticking to the bore walls. Then you simply back off a bit on the charge size.
In my mule ear lock GPR the 777 worked almost perfectly. The side lock Trade Rifle was another matter entirely when it came to reliable ignition.
When the in-lines firing plastic saboted pistol bullets started to really sell Pyrodex presented problems in them. I watched this at the gun club one evening when shooting my flinter with Hilljack. Guy and his wife showed up with two brand new Knight "disk" in-line rifles. They came with a box of Pyrodex pellets and a bag of disks holding 209 shotgun primers. Nothing to clean the bore's with. So the guy loads up with two pellets and fires the rifle. Very accurate. Loads and fires a second shot. When he went to load the third plastic sabot it would not seat down on the pellets. He had to pull the breech plug and drive the sabot out the muzzle. So I loaned him some cleaning patches and my bottle of Lehigh lube. He then repreated the two shots with the third stuck.
Now the punch line to this was as he was going through this he was lecturing Hilljack and I on the evils of dirty black powder and unreliable flintlocks. For the whole time! Sounded like a stuck record! The funny part is that he was at the table next to us and his problems cut Hilljack's rate of fire with my .45 caliber flinter.
When I first looked at the 777 and took it apart it was clear to me that they removed most, if not all, of the potassium perchlorate found in Pyrodex to get rid of the little crysals of potassium chloride found after firing it. The problem with the plastic sabots was that as you pushed one down the bore the little crystals would be forced into the surfaces of the sabots to a point where you simply could not push them any further down the bore.
Then compared to Pyrodex they increased the ballistic strength to get velocities up. The in-line crowd expected near smokeless velocities. Without the smokeless pressure surge.
When 777 first came on the market they stated that it was intended for in-line ml rifles. They did not recommend that it be used in sidelock guns. Now we see that evolved to where it is suggested that the breech of a flintlock first be primed with a little black powder and then black powder in the pan. The breech prime of BP working like the little bag of bp in large-caliber artillery loadings as an "intermediate primer".
E. Ogre
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I should not post when I am running a fever ::)
Dan
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mite have missed it but when the pellets first hit the market you had to look at them too load them correctly they had a small charge of real BP on the bottom meant to go towards the breech end they did this so to make sure the pellets went of with the #11 caps. then they switch too musket caps then to the 209 primers and stopped using the real BP booster as the 209's were hot enough now the are using a .25 casing and .25 primer as the 209's may cause the charger to jump a bit before going off. never had a prob. with the loose stuff with caps only if I didn't prime my flint er with real BP. had one load and the last in my flint er burned so slow all the gases went out the vent and the ball only half way up the barrel.
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mite have missed it but when the pellets first hit the market you had to look at them too load them correctly they had a small charge of real BP on the bottom meant to go towards the breech end they did this so to make sure the pellets went of with the #11 caps. then they switch too musket caps then to the 209 primers and stopped using the real BP booster as the 209's were hot enough now the are using a .25 casing and .25 primer as the 209's may cause the charger to jump a bit before going off. never had a prob. with the loose stuff with caps only if I didn't prime my flint er with real BP. had one load and the last in my flint er burned so slow all the gases went out the vent and the ball only half way up the barrel.
ottawa- I don't understand the glowing statement. Is this .25 a special primer?- I've never heard of a .25 casing primer nor have I seen one. The casing is from what? There is a shotshell primer designated a #239 Federal IIRC, but it is 209 size just as all shotshell primers. It is the hottest shotshell primer you can buy. The guys are using it in plastic shotshell and brass shotshell cases to ignite slower buring rifle powders they are experimenting with. Is this the one you are speaking of?
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Ogre - when did 'they' change the formula?
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Ogre - when did 'they' change the formula?
A good question. When I had first looked at the MSDS I noted the listing of potassium perchlorate yet I could not find any measurable amount when I took my sample apart in water and evaporated it to look at the various crystal shapes. The shape of the crystals gives an idea of what they are.
After a few weeks I looked at the MSDS from another view versus what I had found in my sample. The main ingredient, sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate was not listed as such. Just as a proprietary ingredient. In other words a company secret.
At that time I had just finished up 6 months of communications and raw material samples with a man working in the ATF improvised explosives devices forensic lab. So I contacted him regarding what I had found in the 777. He then obtained a sample and verified my findings through their GS/MS equipment.
I suspected this. Had they developed an entirely new formulation powder they would have had to spend a bundle of bucks on getting it certified through an independent lab. A lot of time and a lot of expense. But if you make a modification to an existing formulation you can generally avoid all of that. So the MSDS info may not be an exact match to what I found to fit into the idea of a slight modification to an existing product formulation.
The patent for Pyrodex had expired several years before this 777 came out. So anybody could have made it on a commercial basis and not been involved in patent infringement litigation.
After working with the 777 for awhile I came to realize that the switch from sodium benzoate to the dinitro version was a logical evolution to cure a few problems seen in 20 years of use of Pyrodex in the field. The switch to the dinitro benzoate eliminated the need for the healthy slug of perchlorate seen in Pyrodex. The chemical texts describe this dinitro benzoate as being highly reactive with charcoal. Which the sodium benzoate is not.
Then there had been field use problems with Pyrodex in that if you did not store it properly it would undergo chemical change. Not a change that would cause it to blow up or blow up a gun. The chemical change would result in erratic ignition properties, erratic muzzle velocities and finally it simply would not work.
There is a previous post that describes this in the poster's gun.
E. Ogre
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Thankyou for your time and expertise in this thread, Ogre.
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To pick up on the subject of chemical stability in these two powders.
Pyrodex contains potassium perchlorate and elemental sulfur.
Here is what Tenny L. Davis's "The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives" has to say about this combination.
Page 456
Primary Explosives, detonators, and Primers
"Sulfur ought not to be used in any primer composition, whether fulminate or non-fulminate, which contains chlorate unless an anti-acid is present. In a moist atmosphere, the sulfuric acid, which is inevitably present on the sulfur, attacks the chlorate, liberating chlorine dioxide which further attacks the sulfur, producing more sulfuric acid, and causing a self-catalyzed souring which results first in the primer becoming slow in its response to the trigger (hang fire) and later its becoming inert (misfire).
I should point out here that with the elemental sulfur in black powder you have 3 to 5% of the charcoal as "ash". The ash being mainly a carbonate that acts as an anti-acid in the powder in amounts more than adequate to prevent any "souring" action over very long periods of storage.
Back to Pyrodex in this.
According to the original patent covering what became Pyrodex the powder is packaged with about 1% moisture in it. The patent claims that without the 1% moisture content the powder does not work as it should.
Now the problem really starts if additional moisture is allowed to get into the powder if the containers in which it is being stored. So a shooter using Pyrodex must take care that the containers are tightly sealed to prevent any additional moisture from getting into the powder. It is not normally a common problem but it has happened with some shooters while others have never experienced it. When stored properly the Pyrodex will hold up for years.
From my look at the 777 I would say it that it is less critical of storage conditions. Which is another improvement.
E. Ogre
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With Harnic having success getting 777 as the main charge to go off in his flintlock, perhaps the ignition point has been lowered as well.........Lynn
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With Harnic having success getting 777 as the main charge to go off in his flintlock, perhaps the ignition point has been lowered as well.........Lynn
Could be Lynn, or or may be the White Lightning touch hole liner. When I load a charge of whatever in the chamber, you can easily see it right at the touch hole. As I said, the ignition is only slightly slower than 3f bp, definitely faster than most Italian replica flintlocks.
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If I have some Pyrodex that is in the original containers, stored properly, how would I know if the chemical composition is still stable? Are there any signs other than slow or no ignition ? How long can I reasonably expect it to last ? I'm not used to powders with a shelf life. :( I'm still using 4198 from 30 years ago,and I've got .45 -100 ammo for my Sharps that I made up 10 years ago. [Goex cartridge]
Maybe its time to use up the P for stump blowing 8)
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If I have some Pyrodex that is in the original containers, stored properly, how would I know if the chemical composition is still stable? Are there any signs other than slow or no ignition ? How long can I reasonably expect it to last ? I'm not used to powders with a shelf life. :( I'm still using 4198 from 30 years ago,and I've got .45 -100 ammo for my Sharps that I made up 10 years ago. [Goex cartridge]
Maybe its time to use up the P for stump blowing 8)
You really can't tell until you try and shoot it. If you get vertical stringing indicating a good bit of shot to shot velocity difference this is a good indication it is going over the hill.
E. Ogre
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With Harnic having success getting 777 as the main charge to go off in his flintlock, perhaps the ignition point has been lowered as well.........Lynn
Could be Lynn, or or may be the White Lightning touch hole liner. When I load a charge of whatever in the chamber, you can easily see it right at the touch hole. As I said, the ignition is only slightly slower than 3f bp, definitely faster than most Italian replica flintlocks.
Probably right on the mark with your thoughts. With my percussion rifles. Where the nipple fired directly into the powder charge the ignition was fast and certain. But move the nipple just a bit away from the charge with the "sidelock" and it was nothing but problems. But other shooters with different sidelocks reported positive ignition.
Must have something to do with the loss of heat if the flame has any distance to travel. With the T/C and Lyman sidelocks the nipple directs the flame down where it then makes a 90 degree turn and goes through a narrow passage before hitting the powder. I suspected that with this design there was some cooling of the flame and gases from the cap ignition.
The factory flinters are sort of noted for a long hole in the vent. Cut different ones in half to look at the length of the vent passage and powder position.
E.Ogre
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If I have some Pyrodex that is in the original containers, stored properly, how would I know if the chemical composition is still stable? Are there any signs other than slow or no ignition ?
One indicator is the color of the powder. Pyrodex is black. If it starts to take on a grayish coloration, it has degraded.
Also, the shot to shot muzzle velocity for Pyrodex has always been poor. Whereas a load of Swiss powder might vary less than 10fps between shots, Pyrodex can be as much as 50fps which can have a significant effect on your bullet strike at longer ranges.
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they modify the breech to take a .25 cal cassing with the primer in it is suppose to be just as hot but not as big of a bang to push the charge up the barrle a liite befor it gose off.now you can order the breech that way.
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TKs ottawa- who modifies the breech? What .25 casing - .25 Auto or merley a 1/4" diameter closed tube? Are these .25 casings with primer a product for sale in stores or a home made remedy for a perceived problem?
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Update - I got hold of a little 777 and tried it in my 36 flinter - one shot. 30 gr (no booster of BP) and like Harnic you could see it thru the vent. Primed with goex 3fg. You could hear about all the prime burn then the barrel went off.
Seemed like a long time.
I next loaded 3fg and it went off near instantly - Much Faster.
With a BP booster 777 probably would work fine.
As a main charge alone I would have to really work my steadiness of hold. I don't think I could hit squat......
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mite have missed it but when the pellets first hit the market you had to look at them too load them correctly they had a small charge of real BP on the bottom meant to go towards the breech end they did this so to make sure the pellets went of with the #11 caps. then they switch too musket caps then to the 209 primers and stopped using the real BP booster as the 209's were hot enough now the are using a .25 casing and .25 primer as the 209's may cause the charger to jump a bit before going off. never had a prob. with the loose stuff with caps only if I didn't prime my flint er with real BP. had one load and the last in my flint er burned so slow all the gases went out the vent and the ball only half way up the barrel.
ottawa- I don't understand the glowing statement. Is this .25 a special primer?- I've never heard of a .25 casing primer nor have I seen one. The casing is from what? There is a shotshell primer designated a #239 Federal IIRC, but it is 209 size just as all shotshell primers. It is the hottest shotshell primer you can buy. The guys are using it in plastic shotshell and brass shotshell cases to ignite slower buring rifle powders they are experimenting with. Is this the one you are speaking of?
I may have missed something...
But anyway.
I can only assume he is referring to a 25 ACP primed case. ???
Why anyone would go to the trouble is beyond me. Its possible to make a sealed breech primer set up that will simply screw into a standard nipple thread in most cases. This was common back into the 19th century in slug guns.
Set up for a small pistol primer the effect would be the same as a small pistol primer in a cartridge case. But would be easier to use.
There are Berdan primers that are .250 diameter I think that this was the primer used in 303 British ?
But I doubt that anyone would bother with a Berdan primer when Boxers are much more common and have a built in anvil.
Dan
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Wow, what a topic.
Here in New Zealand black powder is getting very hard to get..because of new legistlation and rules surrounding its storage retailers wont touch it, also carriers cannot touch it without special permits.
Therefore we are having to look at substitutes.
What I think must be remembered here is that each rifle is different and a good shooter knows his/her rifle; what suits my rifle in powder or loads may not suit yours at all.
I have a quantity of black powder that I will only use in my flinter when that runs out if I cant "find" anymore I will most probably use it as a very attractive wall hanger.
However I also have two percussion rifles and I have been trying Triple 7 in them..in my long rifle with a very slow twist its a waste of time (at present) but in my Hawkin (fast twist) replica it shoots as well if not better than Goex and cleaning is a breeze.
So in answer to your simple question, "is Hodgdon 777 in FFFG a good alternative for black powder?" my simple answer is, "yes", in one of my percussion rifles it is excellent and I will continue to use it.
Hookie in New Zealand
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That's what I figured, Dan- concerning a .25ACP case, or perhaps just incorrect nomenclature and/or a misunderstanding.
The primers are easily made - I made one when I lived in Smithers and could not get percussion caps. The one I made, was build using a poor man's lathe - my 3/8" electric drill held in a bench vice, along with a tap and die kit, of course. It's amazing what you can get away with in the way of tools, when you need to.
If finding BP was impossible for us, I'd simply convert all guns to caplocks and shoot the phony pdr.
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yup what he said about the .25 thanks for clarifying it