AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MeatStick on April 04, 2012, 07:08:07 PM
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I'm told it was built by Bill Large sometime in the early 70's and it was called Baby Lucifer. Sorry thats all I got. I can not wait to shoot it, I think it found a new home.
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What's it worth will be determined by how it performs. The barrel appears to be Bill Large but I was in is shop a lot in the time frame you mention and I don't remember ever seeing this rifle. The important thing on this particular gun is the barrel and its accuracy.
Bob Roller
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Thanks Bob, I hope to find out some performance information over the next couple of days. I have been wanting a chunk gun, I'm hoping it was well spent money. I'll post some pics shooting in a few days.
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I would like to see the hand that could go around that gun's wrist! That is quite a gun. How long is the barrel and have you weighed it yet? You will have to keep us informed of your progress with shooting it. Thanks for the pictures.
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Barrel is 41 inches and I figure it weighs around 40lbs.
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MeatStick,
I think what you have is a bench gun, the chunk matches, at Friendship at least, do no allow a false muzzle, plus the sights will have to be changed to fixed. It will be interesting to find out how well it shoots!
Regards, Steve C.
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MeatStick,
I think what you have is a bench gun, the chunk matches, at Friendship at least, do no allow a false muzzle, plus the sights will have to be changed to fixed. It will be interesting to find out how well it shoots!
Regards, Steve C.
I think that is right, also, but the buttplate looks like a Shuetzen style and the sights are high as if for offhand? I'm asking not telling, but that buttplate looks very awkward from the bench. Could it be used in the cross-stick/buffalo matches with the sights and starter?
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bgf,
There is a 14lb limit on X-stick guns, I had the same thought about the buttplate.
Steve
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I have been messing around with it for a couple of hours now, sitting on a bench, cleaning and trying to love it but I am starting to have second thoughts. I guess I'll see how I feel about it tomorrow about keeping it or sending it to the classifieds.
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I think I'd have to shoot it for at least a month or three. If I was still having fun and it was shooting good, I'd keep it. It's worth a lot as a conversation piece.
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Meatstick,
I picked one up at an auction a couple of years ago, LH percussion light bench, made back in the 60's. Was going to take it apart for the parts but cleaned it up first. Glad I did, bore was perfect and rifle was in overall very good + condition. Shoots one hole groups at 50 yards and qualifies for both bench and cross sticks. You might want to at least give the old girl a try, or two.
Mark
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I'll be takin her out at first light and trying some of the DOPE provided by the previous owner. She weighs in at 35.8 lbs shes a well maintained 50 cal. and I got for $600. I should be tickled with that but I think it will come down to comfort and groups. We will see what tomorrow brings.
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Rifling twist? RB or slug? The muzzle picture appears to show RB depth rifling - around .012" or so.
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1:48 twist
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perfect - probably shoot well with a .508" ball, .015" teflon patch and 85gr. to 100gr. 2F. Bets?
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I knew this one reminded me of something... check this swiss gun out... http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=18806
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Cool- the fancy filing at the muzzzle really looks great, too. Exceptionally nice chunk of Euro Walnut - a special rifle for sure.
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Very cool. I got to put about 40 rounds through the old girl today. I post pics later.
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I had a few of Bills guns and he usually set them up for heavy loads. One 50lb 50cal I had he told me to use 200 grs 2f a .015 patch and a.500 ball. At 200yds it shot almost a one hole group. They use to keep records for all his guns but I heard they got tired of people calling to find out the loads and destroyed the the notes.
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The DOPE that was with the gun was for sabots, so I threw them away and started over with .490 with a .20 patch. 100 yards with 70gr. I need to order a set of apertures for the front sight and some bigger RB's to see what it can do. The butt sucks wet dog fur, it sits right on the bone in the top of your shoulder. I figure it's gonna take me a while to get use to it but I think I'll hold on to it for now. The target picture is a 3 shot group at 100yds varying 5 to 15 mph wind, nothing to brag about, but it's a starting point. We'll see how she doe's with some different loads. I think I'll call her "The Fickle Bitch"
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I would play with it for a while, just to get a feel for the way it might shoot. If you think it has possibilities, I would remove the barrel , lock and triggers and throw the rest into a fire. It is definately one of the "ugliest" gun I have ever
seen. Then build one that at least would fit you , and you could end up with a fairly good bench gun..........Don
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perfect - probably shoot well with a .508" ball, .015" teflon patch and 85gr. to 100gr. 2F. Bets?
What he said. New nipple also.
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I'd consider pulling the buttplate, setting it aside, and fitting a new one from TOTW to the wood that was more shoulder friendly.
I've seen more than a few schuetzens with the upper prong reduced or simply removed to fit modern upper arms better.
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I would play with it for a while, just to get a feel for the way it might shoot. If you think it has possibilities, I would remove the barrel , lock and triggers and throw the rest into a fire. It is definately one of the "ugliest" gun I have ever
seen. Then build one that at least would fit you , and you could end up with a fairly good bench gun..........Don
Funny, my buddy John saw it and said "Wow you need to make a laminated stock for that". I figure I'll take the butt off today before going out to try some other loads. I don't own any other 50 caliber so I need to start ordering some different balls to try.
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Thats a very straight looking stock... are you able to get your eye behind the peep sight?
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Don is right about that rifle. Take the barrel and maybe the lock which is not one made by Bill Large or myself and the triggers and restock it. I like the English style shotgun butt plates which bring me to my next subject,a modern muzzle loader. In 1987 when the now late Don Brown showed for the first time his replica Alex Henry sporting/target rifle with the pistol grip,checkered stock he was criticized for making a "modern"muzzle loader by people who had no idea what they were looking at. He then opened a case laying on the display table and lo and behold,a fine original Alex Henry complete with pistol grip,fine sights and all the bells,horns and whistles associated with such a rifle. Don said that those who knew about such a rifle were exactly that,those who knew and he wasn't worried about the rest and besides that,the gun nor the components weren't aimed at a distressed market. I bought several of his superb breech plugs at $85 a piece and was glad to have them.
Newly made doesn't always mean space age design like the afore mentioned in lines or the
(barf)bolt action bastardizations seen now and again.
Bob Roller
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Like this lady? http://www.researchpress.co.uk/gunmakers/ireland/rigby/rigby12169.htm
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real interesting looking rifle. What type of rear and front peep sights do you have? I think it will be a lot of fun to work up the load, etc for your rifle. The price certainly doesn't seem to have been too out of line either. Enjoy!
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Aperture front sights need to be sized for the target being used. With the right front and rear apertures on the right target they are about as good as a scope to 200 yards or so.
The value in the gun is the barrel and maybe the lock and trigger is Roller etc.
Its pretty clumsily stocked. Heavy guns are not required to be ugly but a lot of people made them that way on purpose "pretty rifles don't shoot".
This mantra was common with some in SB and HP competition. Might still be.
Dan
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Even with out the butt plate it is not much more comfortable. I'll post pictures of the components as I start to break it down. I noticed it has a brass lock plate with engine turning design, internally it looks like it may be an L&R but I can't be certain.
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Even with out the butt plate it is not much more comfortable. I'll post pictures of the components as I start to break it down. I noticed it has a brass lock plate with engine turning design, internally it looks like it may be an L&R but I can't be certain.
Don't ask why- but I put a heavy butt plate exactly like that on a rolling block rifle I had years ago. Since the barrel was 1 1/4" octagonal in .45 cal. the butt increased the weight to about 16 1/2 pounds. It was uncomfortable to shoot, just as you said yours was, so I cut the top tang off and re-shaped the curvature, along with thinning and re-shaping the lower tang. That made it much more comfortable to shoot and it was then good for around 1 inch groups at 100 yards - same as my open sighted round ball shooting 9 1/2 pound muzzleloader shot at the same time.
Most bench guns are straighter stocked than offhand or hunting-type rifles. It's the norm and OK as long as you don't get hammered when it goes off.
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This thing weighs 35.8 lbs, I have no concern with lightening it up a bit. Where can I get a .508 mold I couldn't find one on ToTW.
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If you are shooting the gun off the shoulder you might try shooting it off the arm instead. I think the butt will fit over your arm better than the face of your shoulder. Just a thought. Smylee
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The tang fits between your arm and your side.
Too thick a shoulder will cause problems with the angle of the butt plate into the top tang, which is supposed to fit over the top of the shoulder itself.
I'm quite sure he wasn't trying to shoot the gun out of the shoulder's pocket, but due to the leaned over shooting postion, the top tang would be riding down hard on the top of the collar bone, I'd think - that would hurt.
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Schuetzen rifles are not butted to the shoulder, instead they butt-hook over the arm above the bicep. The gun is balanced on the off-hand; with the offhand forearm almost vertical. Depending on the shooter's body proportion the elbow almost rests on the point of the hip.
The bulk of the barrel weight is cantilevered out in front of the offhand, levering the schuetzen buttplates lower prong securely up under the arm and into the arm pit. With proper conditioning and breath control this is a very solid position. Really skilled shooter can shoot 1.5-2 MO 10-shot groups at 200 yards with it in optimum conditions. Unfortunately I believe that type of hold with the off arm tight and hard against the body is illegal in many(http://) ML offhand matches.
I know there are a very few ML schuetzen matches held at Friendship but do not know if this traditional schuetzen manner of shooting is allowed there or not.
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I shot today about 20 rounds. The first 3 shot group were touching at 100, the next 3 were similar, the next 3 were about double in size and about 2 inches to the right. Then I fell apart trying different holds and cheek placement. I hope to be starting a new stock soon with my wife's permission.
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Bill Large contributed immensely to this sport. I have had some barrels of his that were tack drivers and some that were not so good. I hope you got one of the good one's.
Centershot
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Toward the end of his barrel making days,Bill Large had health issues such as high blood pressure which he doctored with home remedies and one day he passed out and tried to catch himself on a rack gear of a running rifling machine and the pinion gear mashed his hand.I knew he had lost a lot of interest when he started drilling and rifling barrels without reaming them and at times seemed to forget the depth of rifling an the cutter kept on working and splines were the result and a dead barrel as well. He did his last job in the shop in August of 1985 when he cut a dovetail for a front sight and on 23 Sept,he passed away with congestive heart failure listed as the cause of death.
I visited him a lot in the last few months of his life and we talked about anything and everything and he seemed to enjoy the wisecracks and jokes. I was in his shop once after he passed away and it was very odd to me because of the silence. His nephew,David gave me the mould for the neat percussion hammer Bill had made up in 1972 and another close friend now has it. I was glad to see Jim McLemore buy all of that machinery and know it's found a good home.
Bill had four daughters and no sons and he treated me like a son and most of the tool making and other shop jobs I do can be credited to what I learned from Bill Large all those years ago.
Bob Roller
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I have always had time to listen to any "Old-timer" that had something to share, I guess that is how traditions are passed on. I used to work for an old guy, Dick Kuthy that owned a bow shop. I worked on bows, made strings and arrows, just about anything that would make him money he would teach me. Dick was an incredible hunter, trapper and target shooter and he would never help anyone learn anything about any of it. He took a wealth of knowledge to the grave with him a couple of months back. Glad to hear they aren't all like that.
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I am new to this "Heavy" shooting, what kind of groups should I expect and to what range with a patch and ball?
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A heavy bench gun should be able to stack balls of top of each other @ 50 yds and @ 100, to be competitive, keep them under 1 1/2 inches. What you have to remember is the gun may do it but if you can't read the wind you may never get it to shoot that well for you. It usually takes 50's with a couple of X's to win the bench matches at Friendship @ 50 and 100 yds!
Steve C.
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When it comes to bench shooting "reading conditions" (recognizing, understanding, and learning to work with the constantly changing wind and light conditions) of most ranges seems to be the list and most critical bit of skill that makes the difference between the top 2 or 3 percent of shooters and us "also rans'
Good equipment, good loads for that good equipment, and good trigger and bench skills may get you rear the top. I shoot mostly ASSRA, but there are some things in common, and I know that the guys who finish in the top 2 or 3 in the bench matches could take my bench and all my own gear and still hand me my head, simply because of their superior skills at reading the conditions.
In terms of your gun( assuming that it has a good bore, with the right charge/powder/patch/ball combination, good sights for your eyes, etc ) properly set up on a solid bench and shot with good bench technique; I would expect to get 2 or 3 MOA angle, perhaps better, out to 100 yards. It might do better farther out as well, but I suspect that much beyond the 100 or 150 yard range the exterior ballistics and aerodynamics of the round ball can make things pretty "interesting"
(Without going back through the thread, make sure to check the twist, if it has a slug gun twist, or one that is a bit faster than a standard RB twist it might be worth experimenting with conical slugs of various types. My .45 cal percussion Schuetzen rifle has a 1/48 twist in a Remington ML barrel and it flat out loves the old Lee "modern minie" slug)
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Well I have a mold on the way, I shot a little today the wind was gusting 5 to 25 so I tried to shoot between gusts. I hope to see improvements with the new patch and ball combo. I also found a set of front sight inserts, I figure that will be an improvement as well.
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You need at least one good wind indicator at about 25-30 yards if shooting 50-60. Wind at the target is not important if you have intermediate indicators.
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I need to make a couple of these.
Dan
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Typically for long range "non BP" precision shooting I will have an anemometer and read grass, leaves and limbs for calculations. For under 60 yards with a usual 1/2 value or less wind, I just use the streamer for a value indicator.
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Typically for long range "non BP" precision shooting I will have an anemometer and read grass, leaves and limbs for calculations. For under 60 yards with a usual 1/2 value or less wind, I just use the streamer for a value indicator.
could you say this again in another way? I am still new to the wind stuff. Do you mean your drift is calcuated for 100 yards and you 1/2 it when shooting at less distance? thx. Looks like you are now selling the gun? I hope not to pay for a hernia surgery! (I like the heavy guns)
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When calculating for wind, it is the angel of the wind. Full value would be straight left or right, 1/4 toward or away would be half value and so on.
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Reading the wind is the art in target shooting!
Sure, you need an accurate load, but if you can't read the wind, you'll never win consistently.
Plus, holding off a good bit and having the shot go smack into the bull is fun, and really satisfying!
John
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Statisfying it is when you hold correctly for the drift - and splat him - especially at long range on rodents. Using a flinter or capgun, holding completely off a gopher could easily be required at a mere 40 to 50 yards - especially in windy places.
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Wind IS funny! At the Port Huron 200yd silloutte match a "few" years ago,we had a wind quartering from the left at @ 10-15mph,according to guy's who shoot precision,so I held 4',yes,4' above the Bear(at 200yd's),and @ 3' to the left. In my ONLY shinning moment of GLORY,I hit all 4 Bears in the right shoulder,score keepers said it was @ a 2" group. .58cal Hawkin's,.570rb,115grs 3f,pillow tick spit patch,CCI caps.
If I didn't get the advise from "wind expert's",I would NEVER had hit even 1 of the bears!
Another thing on shooting bench gun's, they shoot VERY VERY SLOW! each shot is made with a cold barrel,so 40 shot's in 1 day of shooting is A LOT!! Point of impact seem's to climb up and to the right with each shot. Drop tube's,weighed bullets and load's,ect....too much work for this primitive Longhunter/MountainMan! Still fun to watch though.
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About the bench shooting - I would have to be doing, I doubt I could watch.
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As a bench guy, dunno if I could watch either! I generally make it to the range for maybe 1.5 hours per week, sunday morning. Between 4-5 bags of stuff, the rifle, setting up targets, waiting for others at the range, the usual talking and cleaning, I will only send 5 to a max of 10 shots downrange! Usually 5+1 fowler. It is still worth it and a great deal of pressure to make that group good to start off the week right!
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I had a blast when I was bench shooting!
I did it for several years and followed the flow in guns of the guys around me. In the end, I ended up shooting a hotrod 22 rimfire, and then a high tech pellet rifle. And I have to say that pellet rifle was no doubt the most accurate gun (or almost gun) that I've ever shot! ;D
John
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In the spirit of full disclosure,I like to watch paint dry,grass grow,F-16's set their INS,ect............