AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Eric Smith on April 06, 2012, 02:16:20 AM
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What is the minimum caliber load to use for the following, whitetail deer, elk, black bear, and American bison?
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elk,bear, bison.. 54cal or bigger.
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Are there legal requirements in your hunting area. Some states regulate such tthings
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I would like to think I go where the game is.
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.58 This is my primary deer hunting rifle's caliber. Deer just think it's just plain poison. I'm certain it will do fine for the bigger critters to if you load heavy enough to take advantage of the caliber. 100 or a bit more grains of ffg. With a decent barrel length.. BJH
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50 is perfect for deer and maybe black bear.
54 is better for larger stuff but I feel its marginal for elk though it works really well most of the time.
If I felt I needed something bigger than a 54 I would jump to a 62-69 English sporting rifle in flint or percussion.
I will likely hunt blackbear this spring with a 50 or 54 caliber. I have a 16 bore rifle (.662 ball) but its hard on my neck.
Shot placement is the key to all of it. When I guided hunters a man with a 270 he could shoot well was far more deadly than someone with 340 Weatherby that scared him to death to shoot.
Dan
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I purposely traded into a pair of .58's when it was touching if I'd get my .69 back. Now, I have all 3 - and I'm perfectly suited for all game up to buffalo with any of them - BUT- were I to hunt buffalo/bison, I'd use the .69 without hesitation. The .58 Double rifle, my second best hunting rifle, is restricted to a mere 110gr. 2F for regulation reasons and due to that, I'd not go after buffalo with it. If it was capable of handing 140gr., it would be a toss-up between that one and the 14 bore rifle as all-round hunting rifle in NA. I'd certainly choose the .14 bore(.69) for grizzlies, even though it holds just one shot.
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I'm comfortable with the .50 for everything except buffalo and assorted large critters. Never killed an elk but I'd still trust a .50 or my .54. Deer & black bear are the biggest things I get to hunt so a .50 serves well.
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So - question was for opinons on minimums:
deer - .45 minimum for small whitetails, mule deer, all black tails or all sitka deer.
large deer over 200 pounds .50 cal. minimum
bear - .50 mimimum.
moose/elk - .54 mimimum.
buffalo - .58 minimum.
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Sounds reasonable, Daryl, and .45 just happens to be the minimum for deer in Va.
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When I hunted the only caliber I tried was 54, on moose & deer. It worked well for both. Now I have a 58 cal & would prefer it over the 54. It shoots as flat as the 54 did with 140 grs 3f, recoil on my 9.2 pound rifle is no issue. I seriously doubt any critter I ever hunted would take a second shot if the first was reasonably well placed.
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58 is great and the only thing better is bigger for all around use in my humble opinion after over 40 years of muzzleloading. Smylee
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Has excellent trajectory plus "Whompability"
:)
I hafta agree there Rb! ;)
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The .58 is hardly the slowpoke that some publications report. The one and only time I chronographed a .58 I consistently got velocities in the range of 1680 -1700 or better with 100 grains Swiss FFG out of a 34 inch Colerain. With 110 goex FFG I achieved 1592 -1610 consistently. Flat enough for 100 yard shooting.
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Are there legal requirements in your hunting area. Some states regulate such tthings
Of the game listed we only have [wild] deer and black bear in Louisiana and the state minumum caliber is .44 for big game. As I have mentioned previously, the state maximum for small game is .36; thus leaving the popular .40 out in the cold for hunting. My largest current flintlocks are .54s and I would not hesitate to use them on bear or elk [I do have a .58 '1841' musket and once had a .58 Hawken that with 100-110 gr ffg would do for any big game in the lower 48].
Most of my buddies who hunt deer with MLers use a .50 with great success on deer.
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I'm considering possibly building (can't afford to have one built) a jeager /yeager from a kit when I can swing it. It will have a swamped 31" barrel. I have no idea what kind of velocity loss that means so have thought a .54 would be best. But if velocity doesn't suffer too much a .58 sounds better. What kind of vel loss are we looking at, here?
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if velocity doesn't suffer too much a .58 sounds better. What kind of vel loss are we looking at, here?
I am planning a trip to the club this afternoon Hanshi. I'll take my chrony & check for you. I built a fullstock flint Hawken with a 36"x1" Rice 58 barrel for reference. I prefer 3f GOEX in it because 2f causes a slight lag on firing in my rifle. More later...
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Ok Hanshi, I finally got away from the "honey do" list for an afternoon! I fired 2 loads, my target load of 75 grs GOEX 3f & a more substantial 140 gr load, also 3f GOEX. The results were averaged over 5 shots of each. 75 grs gave an average velocity of 1,319 fps, with an extreme velocity spread of 31 fps. The 140 gr load gave an average velocity of 1,654 fps with an extreme velocity spread of 14 fps. That differs substantially from the velocities I remember from my last 54 cal about 25 years ago, by at least 300 fps. The trajectory seems un-affected though, I guess the greater mass with a 58 cal prb permits a similar trajectory at lower velocities. When I use the same sight picture at 50 & 100 yards, the ball shoots about 4.5-5" lower at 100 yards with the 75gr load. The difference would be less at 140 grains. I hope that answers your question.
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Im actually surprised at your 140 FFFg result. I thought it would be much higher
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I find your chronographed velocities very interesting, Harry. My 1861 Enfield Musketoon delivered 1,308fps with 75gr. 2F GOEX with only 12fps variation, shot to shot. I was very impressed, considering it's progressive rifing depth. I would have thought it would deliver poor resutls due to blowby, but the reverse seems to have happened. It's barrel is only 24" long. The 1,319 with 75gr. 3F GOEX form your longer barrel is not much improvememt.
I've just cast up some .562's for it, so should do some more testing, when it warms up a bit more. It's a fun little gun to shoot and I won a trail walk with the Musketoon at Hefley a couple years back when feeling rather confident, one morning. I'll also try a 140gr. charge, just for the 'pain' of it for comparrison. The gun only weighs around 6 1/2 pounds.
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Thanks for sharing the results, Harnic. I would not hesitate hunting deer with the 75 grain load; that massive ball won't need much. I would not venture up past 100 grains especially in a 31" barrel....well I guess I would go up some as I've killed deer with 110 grains 3F in my .54 Mississippi rifle (1735 fps). I hate to have to make decisions like these :-\.
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That's amazing,almost double the charge for only three hundred more feet per second!
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Yeah - seem to me, 3F is not efficient in the larger bores. It will be interesting to see what the short little rifle gives.
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I too was surprised by the 140 gr load performance. I was expecting a velocity more in the 18-1900 fps range, but 5 shots with such a low spread is pretty definitive. You're welcome Hanshi, I too was interested to find the difference between 54 & 58 cal, I wish I had writen the velocities down for my old 54, it was 25 years ago, but I'm sure I'm close. As you suggest, the 75 grain load has more than enough oomph, probably even on game larger than deer.
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Here's my numbers from around 1988, using the GOEX available then. All loads, 2F. .58 hawken 34" bl.
.575gr. round ball 285gr.
:95gr. --spit patch - 1,424fps spread 48fps.
:140gr. -spit patch - 1,683fps 10fps spread -- Bear Grease patch - 1,736fps 36fps spread
:160gr. -spit patch - 1,810fps 8fps spread-----Bear Grease patch - 1,857fps 74fps spread
:185gr. -spit patch - not chronographed------- Bear Grease patch - 1,951fps 42fps spread
:200gr. -spit patch - 1850fps spread not listed note similarity to 160gr. spit and G Brease patch.
I should note here, all shooting was done without wiping. Spit patch always gave better accuracy than any grease or oil. The barrel started shooting well at 140gr. 2F. 95gr. would barely stay on a pie plate at 100yards. With 140gr. I could stay on that pale at 200 yards easily and at 100yrds, shoot into 2" or better.
Slug: 675gr. RNHB - modified Lyman # 57730 mould.
:150gr. 2F - 1,250fps
:160gr. 2F - 1,325fps
Yeah - they kicked with the hawken butt plate. I was young, dumb, ect, etc.
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Anybody have real data for a 62?
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Yeah - seem to me, 3F is not efficient in the larger bores. It will be interesting to see what the short little rifle gives.
I would tend to agree Daryl & I'd switch except the day I tried 2f in the new barrel I got VERY noticeable lag. I switched back to 3f & ignition was quick again. I definitely need to experiment! ;)
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If you get lagging ignition with 2F - something else is wrong, Harry. I use it in every fllintlock but the .32 - and only because I haven't tried it in the .32 yet. I will next time I'm at the upper range accuracy testing.
Perhaps the lag was due to oil in the vent's chamber and by the time you switched to 3F, it was burnt out? Just trying to understand why there would be slowed ignition, is all.
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Perhaps the lag was due to oil in the vent's chamber and by the time you switched to 3F, it was burnt out? Just trying to understand why there would be slowed ignition, is all.
I have a WL liner, drilled to 1/16", the same as my 50 cal barrel. There was no buildup or oil in the vent, I checked & picked. The day I tried 2f & had no 3f with me & when I shot next I used only 3f. As I said, I need to experiment. I'll likely get back to the range tomorrow & will try both. I really don't need to switch to 2f as 3f is working well. Accuracy is better than I can shoot & velocity is not a priority for a non-hunter. Also I have a fair cache of 3f, so I'm not inclined to switch now. I have 2# of 2f to play with & I will over the next while. I would like to compare velocity between 2 & 3f in this barrel.
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That's a mighty big spread of critters. Up to elk I wouldn't mind hunting with my 54cal but grizzlys and buffalo I think I would want at least 58 and better yet 62 cal. Just me and others may think differently. FRJ
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recoil on my 9.2 pound rifle is no issue.
I have to amend this comment after my experimentation last week! Recoil is manageable with 140 gr offhand (the position I used for this first test), not from the bench!
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When shooting heavy powder charges, shoulder protectors make for much more accurate bench work, trust me on that, Harry. I've sent a day with a couple of my heavy kickers, using a Magnum Pad and still come away with a purple shoulder- after a day of festering. Slight pain, not much, but those .458's do kick - a bit. The .69's 2"-plus butt plate is much easier on the shoulder and chest, all the way to 175gr.
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Harnick, does your .58 flintlock have Track's "Hawken Flint Hooked Breech & Tang", part number #Plug-FH-16-3? If so, the one-inch long powder chamber measures .360 (at the base of the .570 bore) and coarse powder (Goex 2F) bridges there. Swiss 2 and 1 1/2 will nearly not work!. I had that problem and cured it by pulling the breech plug and drilling that chamber out to .440", polishing it and radiusing the entrance. Here's what it looks like in the .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built. The smoked dowel shows the size of the firing chamber:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/58FlintChamberJPG.jpg)
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Excellent observation and point, Herb. Slapping the breech before seating the ball might help unbridge the powder if you don't open the breech, Harry.
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Harnick, does your .58 flintlock have Track's "Hawken Flint Hooked Breech & Tang", part number #Plug-FH-16-3? If so, the one-inch long powder chamber measures .360 (at the base of the .570 bore) and coarse powder (Goex 2F) bridges there.
Thanks Herb, I noticed that with both barrels & coned both chambers to prevent bridging. I looked through the touch hole several times while testing the 2f GOEX last week & the powder was always right to the hole. Good point though for anyone using that breech plug.
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When shooting heavy powder charges, shoulder protectors make for much more accurate bench work, trust me on that, Harry.
I will take your advice before I ever shoot heavy loads in the 58 again Daryl. The worst kicker I've ever fired was a .378 Weatherby! A customer was too afraid of it to sight it in (obviously too much rifle for him) but was going on a guided Grizzly hunt. His logic was his fear of the bear would over-ride his fear of the rifle... idiot! ;)
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I've guided enough years to know fear of the bear doesn't prevent flinching. They'd only like to think they're more afraid of the bear - The real question boils down to, what's worse - belt you into tomorrow right now, stars and instand pain, or a possible bear attack with you being backed up by a guide who can shoot his big rifle? The nasty hunter's rifle wins.
Same goes with heavy loads in a muzzleloading rifle - keep the loads managable by you or a flinch will ruin your day.
That's why I practise with the big gun now and then. Gotta keep in tun to the "Gentle Lady's" caress.
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I had that problem and cured it by pulling the breech plug and drilling that chamber out to .440", polishing it and radiusing the entrance.
What is the chamber capacity with it bored out to .440" Herb? I would think it must take at least 80 grs just to fill a chamber that large...
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I just measured that black dowel, the powder chamber is 1.1" long by .440. This is almost exactly the capacity of a .45 Colt cartridge, which is 1.1" by .460 inside. That case holds 40 grains of Goex 2F.
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Thanks Herb, that would work then. If I have anymore ignition problems when I finish up my Goex 3f & switch to 2f, I'll try boring it out. ;)
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FF should not bridge a .360 hole.
I shoot FF Swiss in this and is significantly smaller than .360
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FBreeching%2FP1010923.jpg&hash=a4956e4f653686c7e586e9c38ebf5482c06a5978)
However, if I use a lower quality powder the large flakes of fouling will fall over the hole and prevent powder from entering the antechamber of the Nock Breech.
Dan
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Dan, this is not what my flint hooked breech powder chamber looks like. It was .360 inside and 1.1" long. I installed a White Lightning liner, .068 hole to start, and it was 1.0" to the flashhole. I did have flashes in the pan with Swiss 2F. With 66 shots of Goex 2F, I have 4 FIP. With 20 shots of Swiss I had 11 FIP. 13 of these were Swiss 1 1/2F, but 7 were Swiss 2F with 2 FIP. I opened the flash hole to .070, but it took drilliing the powder chamber out to .440 and radiusing the entrance to cure the failure to ignite. I never FIP now, but I will never use a breech like this again.
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Dan, this is not what my flint hooked breech powder chamber looks like. It was .360 inside and 1.1" long. I installed a White Lightning liner, .068 hole to start, and it was 1.0" to the flashhole. I did have flashes in the pan with Swiss 2F. With 66 shots of Goex 2F, I have 4 FIP. With 20 shots of Swiss I had 11 FIP. 13 of these were Swiss 1 1/2F, but 7 were Swiss 2F with 2 FIP. I opened the flash hole to .070, but it took drilliing the powder chamber out to .440 and radiusing the entrance to cure the failure to ignite. I never FIP now, but I will never use a breech like this again.
I have 2 barrels with a 3/8 hole about 1" long. They do not cause problems and I have shot this rifle hundreds of shots . These would be larger but the barrels are small and the breeches 5/8".
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FMore%2520ML%2520guns%2FIMGP1079.jpg&hash=1cda5782e2bba1eea8e427eef1caa5065873d8d4)
If the rifle is 58 and has a 3/4 " plug I would open it up to at least .440".
The small passages in the breeches are for smaller bore guns.
Dan
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Herb. I have used that type of breech with a drum and nipple without problem. Thats an even longer passageway. If there is much oil in there or if I don't smack the stock opposite of the lock it can fail to go off. It can be reliable but it is less forgiving.