AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: rich pierce on April 20, 2012, 05:08:15 PM
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These guns have always fascinated me because they are derivative of early American longrifles, intended to be pleasing to native Americans who favored the longrifle. Patterned after Lancaster rifles, they are quite robust and would have been quite serviceable in the wilderness. Shumway wrote some excellent articles about them.
http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=109739
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A couple real interesting rifles, the trade gun and the FL breechloader too. I like both a lot. the Maus is interesting too but overelaborate for my taste.
Do you think the english trade rifle was derivative of the ALR? The hows and whys of the transition from musket to rifle in the indian trade has always intrigued me. Did you note that it appears to have a touch-hole liner and the touchole itself seems rather large.
Thank you for calling them to our attention
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Do you think the english trade rifle was derivative of the ALR? The hows and whys of the transition from musket to rifle in the indian trade has always intrigued me. Did you note that it appears to have a touch-hole liner and the touchole itself seems rather large.
Thank you for calling them to our attention
George Shumway proposed the English trade rifles used Lancaster rifles as models, perhaps taking a Lancaster rifle in the Dickert style to the gunmakers to use as a model. He pointed out the English versions, which also came in a sliding wooden patchbox model, tended to be more robust, that the English never learned or cared to learn to make a proper Germanic style cheekpiece, and that the carving behind the cheekpiece was somewhat stylized/formalized version of Lancaster patterns. He proposed that for hard usage they incorporated the indestructable cast brass box with a very simple mechanism. East to inlet, very strong. Calibers ran .54 and up, and barrels 46" or so. I always found Shumway's conclusions to be conservative and well-considered and agree that the resemblance in architecture and carving style are more than coincidental. Later, trade rifles were often patterned directly after Lancaster rifles and were called so in the trade. George had excelent articles in the Buckskin Report on these rifles. I kept a set. He also published a monograph on the subject which was more succinct.
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Regarding the touch hole liner, in addition to the possibility that it could be original to the barrel, it could also have been a period re-bushing or part of a reconversion to flint. many re-conversions are so well done the work is difficult to detect.
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What is the cross section shape of the upper forestock on these guns??
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Here's a pic of another -
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wrtcleather.com%2F1-ckd%2Ffirearms-trade%2Fenglish-indian-treaty-lock.jpg&hash=6fc435ce22256fcf7e713ca322489e9dbcbd50d1)
IIRC somewhere I have an article or two by Shumway from the old Buckskin report and if I can find it/them I'll offer up copies.
Oddly enough in 1826, The American Fur Company started ordering copies of the English trade rifle from Henry of Boultton, along with Henry's American aka Lancaster model - I reckon what goes around comes around.
Larry Walker makes a very nice/well researched copy of the Henry English Model (after 1834 it was known as the Old English)
http://web.mac.com/j.henry.artificers/Site/English_Pattern.html
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Regarding the touch hole liner, in addition to the possibility that it could be original to the barrel, it could also have been a period re-bushing or part of a reconversion to flint. many re-conversions are so well done the work is difficult to detect.
It appears to have been reconverted to flint.
Dan