AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: mike learn on June 06, 2012, 06:25:38 AM
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Hello from Colorado.
I have had the fortunate luck to have relatives who own a gun previously owned by one of my late, great ancestors. He had fought in the Revolutionary War, but was killed in an Iroquois indian raid in 1781. This gun has been in my family since that time along with another rifle and powder horn. I am trying to find the builder of the gun. I do not have the gun in my hands, but only these photos supplied by a family member taken during a reunion a few years ago. It is marked made in Hellerstown, PA, but no builder name is able to be identified on the gun.
It is unclear how old the gun is, but it is said to be the gun that he used during the Indian raid that took his life. His name was John Learn. He had a Tavern in Tannersville, PA at the time of his death. My distant relative, who owns the gun, is not exactly computer literate. These pics are all that I have at this time until I can find a way for him to get me photos other than emailing them to me.
Here are a few pictures, hoping I can get more history on the rifle.
Thanks for your consideration,
Mike Learn
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingchrome.com%2Fvw%2Flearnlongrifle.jpg&hash=9cf880e7547d4024fb2193426a68ce69ea9b31b1)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingchrome.com%2Fvw%2Fjohnlearn1.JPG&hash=32a662b7ecc740cbc8f6910a3d288911cdb0c38a)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingchrome.com%2Fvw%2Fjohnlearn2.JPG&hash=ae91073026028c5f2b42a217f8600228a20cd6a6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingchrome.com%2Fvw%2Fjohnlearn3.JPG&hash=a9bc6b10730c2cbc8418ccaef2b087e28b39d909)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingchrome.com%2Fvw%2Fjohnlearn4.JPG&hash=f922eff1fa1ec550daad97634e8a2cae6efa423f)
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One of the Molls, they was a gunmaking family around Hellertown PA. I don't think that rifle is early enough to have been in the conflicts you mention.
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Thanks! I appreciate the input. I have been told by others that it had been converted to percussion at a later time. I am more interested in finding the builder than the date. I will research the Moll rifles.
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You should contact Eric Kettenburg who posts on here frequently.
You have a treasure. Fantastic to see that it it has not been altered or cleaned in recent years.
Thanks for sharing it with us and we would love to see the other photos.
GM
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Mike, More pictures please. That's a beauty. I also doubt 1781, but was originally flint. I suppose
it's possible. Moll also my first thought. Not sure which one. Google John Moll and you will get a
wealth of info.
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Thanks for the assistance fellas. I will get better pictures in the future. I will be flying to NYC in the next month and will drive down to PA to see the rifle in person and get some better shots.
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I read that Peter was the Hellertown Moll. I think in "The Pennsylvania Rifle" it states he would mark some of his guns with Hellertown on the barrel. John was making guns before or at least by the American Revolution. I think this one could have been made by Peter or Peter & David. The Moll family must have made guns for nearly a hundred years.
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That's probably a Peter Moll or Peter/David Moll rifle. Looks a little different than many I've seen, although portions sure look like a Hellertown Moll, but I admittedly have not paid as much attention to these guys as they are a little late for my tastes and I prefer the earlier Allentown Moll rifles.
Not going to beat around the bush, there is absolutely no way at all that it is a 1781 era rifle. 1820 to 1830 is much more like it. Very nice piece, and nice that it has not been "messed with," but it is definitely a 19th century rifle.
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Hey guys, what is that blob on the lock plate?
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Its a nice looking rifle, looks like a few inches have been cut off the barrel.
Buck
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The more I look at the pictures, the figure in the wood almost looks fake. How was the artificial figure done back then?
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That's probably a Peter Moll or Peter/David Moll rifle. Looks a little different than many I've seen, although portions sure look like a Hellertown Moll, but I admittedly have not paid as much attention to these guys as they are a little late for my tastes and I prefer the earlier Allentown Moll rifles.
Not going to beat around the bush, there is absolutely no way at all that it is a 1781 era rifle. 1820 to 1830 is much more like it. Very nice piece, and nice that it has not been "messed with," but it is definitely a 19th century rifle.
Thanks Eric. I will let my relatives know about this information. Much appreciate it!! So you think it came with the percussion lock on it?
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No, it probably was original flint. Many makers were still using flintlocks well into the 1840s at least. Would need to see much more detail of the lock and side panel region to be positive, but my "gut" impression is that it probably was flint originally.
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I believe that the blob on the lock plate is an attempt to repair the crack that is in the plate. I think they used a screw from the inside throught the hole for the mainspring screw and a nut tightened down and then epoxied in place the hole is from the fact hat the screw was not long enough to come though flush. You can see the crack in the forward lock portion immediately under the blob if you enlarge the photo.
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That blob may be a reinforcement for the joint of an extention to the caplock, to reach the forward lock bolt of the original inlet. That seems a long inlet, but that is probably what the original flintlock was. We need a photo of the sideplate, with the measurement of the centers of the lock bolts. If there are keys still holding the stock on, and the breech has not been cut back and pins now used to go through the underlugs, with the keys still stuck through the stock, then almost certainly the muzzle end has been cut off. I can't see a nose cap. You will want to get measurements from the breech to each stock key and the muzzle, and from the front of the entry pipe to the center of the rod pipes and muzzle. Those clues finally helped me realize the Jacob Wigle rifle I restored had the breech cut off and was re-breeched for caplock and that the muzzle end had been cut off. Present barrel length is 35.5, but the original was 46 inches, like others from Westmoreland County. (Folks, this is part of our discussion on another website, and the rifle I am discussing is one made by Jacob Wigle, and which I discussed on this forum. My post is somewhere in the archives, I have not tried to find it). The solid clue that the Wigle barrel had been so long was the balance point of the rifle. So look for wear marks of carrying, that would be the balance point. Pack rats had chewed on the Wigle stock for salt, so it was really obvious.
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Yes, the barrel had definitely been cut back. I can not verify if it was at the muzzle or breech. I will be traveling east in a few weeks and will get a chance to document the rifle much better. I will have a ton of photos and measurements for discussion. I appreciate the input and it certainly gives me much more to look for when I have it in my hands.
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Mike, while you are in New York, and Pa. If you get a chance check out Dixons" gun shop. It's a muzzleloading Mecca, and you will be able to get tons of info. Just google Dixons for the location and hours. It shouldn't be too far from where you are visiting.
Bill
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Hey Bill, that is perfect. Thanks for the heads up. I will be visiting Martin Guitars while I am down that way. Not far at all!! Must save money...must save money....must save money.. ::)
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Say hello to C.F. the III or IV or whatever he is. I met him in Portland in 1985 or 1986. I bought a D-18 from his dad in 1953.