AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: runastav on July 04, 2012, 06:32:20 PM

Title: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 04, 2012, 06:32:20 PM: Hi Guys!
Can anyone tell me more about this rifle, value, what ramrod etc? Barrel 30-1/4" cal 45" and very good shape :)

Runar
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3952.jpg&hash=89b39c68b81c02571b6ec8bfad94ded4eb23a462)

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Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: JWBlair on July 04, 2012, 07:19:48 PM: Very nice rifle.The maker H.V.Perry is listed in Carey's American Firearms Makers as a maker of percussion pepperboxes and match rifles at Jamestown,New York from 1840-1870.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: nord on July 04, 2012, 11:44:00 PM: Late NY Perch Belly. The stampings pretty much tell the story. Good quality by a good maker. The problem (for me) is style and lack of artistic merit. No matter though, a nice enough gun in excellent condition.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 04, 2012, 11:56:45 PM: Remington made barrels for gun makers for many years. The turned muzzle was a standard characteristic. This made the muzzle ready for a maker's "Guide Bullet Bullet Starter".

I see the muzzle is lightly crowned on both lands and the grooves.

Whatever ramrod fits the pipes is the correct rod.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Curt J on July 05, 2012, 02:58:21 AM: I once owned a 22 pound H. V. PERRY rifle with a Fredonia, New York, address. It included a hand dovetailed walnut box, with hinged lid, containing the false-muzzle, guide bullet starter, mold, and swage. Ned Roberts considered Perry one of the great target rifle makers. He was born in about 1828, was working in Dansville, New York, in 1850: Fredonia, New York, 1852-1865; and in Jamestown, New York, 1865-1897. People either like or hate the architecture of these "fishbelly" rifles, but if you have ever put one to your shoulder, you will be pleasantly surprised at how nicely they hold. Personally, I find them oddly attractive, some more than others, as there are several variations within this style of architecture.

Remington did indeed supply barrels to the trade for a long number of years, but these were primarily cast steel barrel blanks, not finished barrels. They were not normally rifled, or even reamed to the finished bore size. I am skeptical about them being supplied by Remington (or any of the other suppliers) with the muzzle already turned for a guide bullet starter. If that were the case, one would expect some degree of standardization, and that is far from the case. I currently own no less than 47 rifles that have muzzles turned for a starter. The dimensions are all over the map, both in diameter and in the length of the turned section. There is no interchangeability among them. Not to mention other little details such as the knurled band on the muzzle of this one, which are quite individual. It stands to reason that if a gunsmith had a lathe with which to make the guide bullet starter, he also had the capability of turning the muzzle to accept the guide bullet starter.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 05, 2012, 05:19:45 PM: So true, Curt. Thanks for the info - "Generalizations and assumptions" abound. I merely repeated what I'd read, but of course and quite possibly, somewhat incorrectly. :) Except for this:

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Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 06, 2012, 05:57:55 PM: Thank you guys! The stock shape is very fine for standing shooting, try it today with Lee 405 gr Hollow Base 50 gs 2 F not bad on 50 meter only 2 shot the bullet to hard must cast of pure lead. And yes, I shot with all my antik guns thats thay was made for ;)
Runar
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3961.jpg&hash=4fd8fb17f2d87854df10d5c34d6f36ef9340cf53)

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Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Acer Saccharum on July 06, 2012, 07:24:50 PM: I would not be surprised if this gun had a gain twist barrel, and shot a Pickett bullet.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: JCKelly on July 06, 2012, 10:30:41 PM: H.J. Swinney's set The New York State Firearms Trade has almost 23 pages on Perry, photos of 18 rifles, 12 of which have muzzles turned for short starters or come with false muzzles. Includes one .40-100 Ballard with a false muzzle. Perry was known for "multi-groove rifling", one of these rifles had 8 groove rifling with left hand gain twist. Yes, they are meant to shoot a pickett bullet, not a round ball.

The half-stock percussion rifle represents the peak of muzzle-loading rifle development. The best, or at least the greatest number of "best", were New York rifles. Swinney's 5-volume set is worth getting.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: GrampaJack on July 08, 2012, 03:05:36 AM: Those extreme fish belly guns do look a little funny especially when compared to a "classic" Kentucky. I grew up in Chautauqua County and have looked for guns made there for the better part of 30 years with no luck. I was going to PM you and ask if I could come over and shoot the thing but Norway is a little too far for a weekend trip. Nice gun, I'm amazed that a Jamestown gun made it all the way over there. Thanks for sharing it. Jack
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 08, 2012, 11:38:47 AM: Hi guys and thank you!
GrampaJack, Norway is not so far away hehe ;) Maby the old masters have looked on a snaplockgunstock, see the shape is very close but my snaplock have shorter stock ( Cheek stock)
Runar
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3965.jpg&hash=523ed87f45db83dd4620b2a5735585765fea5985)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3964.jpg&hash=26c38711fc65de940ff46f8d5e04aa6f9334eb27)
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: awol on July 08, 2012, 01:39:01 PM: Runar, you have a nice rifle. If you can find the correct diameter,I would try an all lead pistol bullet, somewhere around 250 grains. The rifle may have been used with thin cloth patch or a paper patch, lubricated. If you can get Ned Roberts' book "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle", it discusses how these rifles were loaded.

Thanks for showing it.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on July 08, 2012, 02:12:14 PM: I like that caplock and I wish I could find a trigger guard like that one in Steel or silver.
I got a post from Tom Merkley this morning saying his wife's brain tumor has come back plus two more smaller one's.He has a small son who he just finished a boy's rifle for and this is not a good situation.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 08, 2012, 06:07:47 PM: Bob - try Track - pistol parts - that guard looks very fmiliar to me - the scroll would have to be added, as Taylor did with his Kuntz rifle, altough his needed 4 guards to make one, not just 2.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: JCKelly on July 09, 2012, 10:01:30 PM: Mid-nineteenth century hardware is not popular, save for Ohio's Vincent.

Nearest I've seen to this Perry guard is Pecatonica River's "Dimmic", which would still require some bending.

Assuming one can bend these castings.

Less frustration I'd say, by bending one up new out of heavy brass sheet & torch silver brazing the pieces together.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 09, 2012, 10:29:00 PM: Quote from: JCKelly on July 09, 2012, 10:01:30 PM
torch silver brazing the pieces together.

That is how Taylor made his Kuntz guard match the Kuntz rifles in the museum in NY. 4 different guards were needed to get the right shape, angles and design.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on July 10, 2012, 06:39:06 AM: Runastav, I have a rifle very similer to yours, stock profile and Remington barrel. I had Jim Goodoin clean it up a little (the barrel) and have shot three deer with it. They were made to shoot. Made to shoot off the arm with the extreme hook butt and quite a bit of drop but it does shoot quite well. 45 cal. 60 gr. 2f 445 round ball. None of the deer went more than 60 yds. Nice comparison beside the Ole Snapper. Smylee
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 10, 2012, 04:43:33 PM: Hi Guys!
Thank you all :) smylee, today shooting 451" round ball 0.010" ox-yoke path oxyoke worm and 45 grs 2-F best so far standing 35meter :) Must get bulletmould 445" 8 shot no wiping offcoarse ;)
Runar
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3967.jpg&hash=8177c76e5027bd60e29547015bb2b4c06e841909)
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 10, 2012, 06:09:05 PM: Runar- have you measured the rate of twist in the barrel, yet? Inquiring minds would like to know what it is, along with the bore and groove diameters.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 10, 2012, 08:37:09 PM: Daryl, with digital caliper in muzzle. Bore-455" Groove- 471" and 8 lands and rifle. It have uniform twist 1-48" and it seem tighter in the 2-3" from muzzle ( Choke ?)
Runar
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 11, 2012, 01:03:45 AM: Yes- could easily be a choke or a gain twist might also feel tighter as you withdraw a tight patch. I'd think with .008" rifling, the round ball should shoot very well, or a slug, perhaps of about 200gr. to 220gr. weight- pure lead and engraving a thousandth or 2 upon loading.
Wioth round balls, I'd increase the charge to 65 or 70gr.2F, 5 gr. at a time watching the accuracy - I'd also shoot at 50yards, not closer.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: GrampaJack on July 11, 2012, 02:55:41 AM: I plan to be in Jamestown in August to do some family research. I'll take copies of this thread up to a couple guys who are not on the "net". They will certainly get a kick out of them. Thanks, Jack
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: runastav on July 24, 2012, 03:10:27 PM: Hi guys, and thank you!
GrampaJack, here is some more photos you can take to the guys in Jamerson :)
Runar
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3979.jpg&hash=9fdbd3b3ac3400d3db734202b5df102f69b04885)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3980.jpg&hash=985d5fc5015fd72e76caf6333383aeebcaf3ed6c)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3982.jpg&hash=6f7fd325193461c873c7b157edd601ec568b56a8)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3984.jpg&hash=e4a89ad747339bf309ae0b1765cb9cd72fa2f7db)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3985.jpg&hash=8accb8e911159dad33b3f28000eb1d9813a4195f)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3986.jpg&hash=e112aab3c62129cf6be53c70d4bf5d9cee109c5f)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3981.jpg&hash=6e3347eed51b595726ab49c46ce0300c42764733)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3993.jpg&hash=dcd52a7b616fdda5c1695a4e31227beec3243e85)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3987.jpg&hash=d441e0067b5f44c28d85ee7dd6f6b5ecf355a3b6)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3988.jpg&hash=d3c634e3fca55ab6633fc0a35312363866ba7420)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3989.jpg&hash=9c8e46ccc1a9de411b922a692ebb20ff1c1c6b19)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3994.jpg&hash=6d28746ebc599e473896320051718877de5813bb)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3997.jpg&hash=b250637bdae4761bf1327b2ec189e73ce9046cbe)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3998.jpg&hash=e214a401ee981f5576e44ce1be542cdcb7aa2a6d)
See the brassrivet
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3990.jpg&hash=779b6203fa82520fdf9b62a2ccf0224c6d45c181)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF3991.jpg&hash=56149cde322dd406b30ed605579c0fa8d8a8e2f8)
Smart, adjustscrew for letoff
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF4000.jpg&hash=07360a449391dbe558880fef87600da077de006a)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1131.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm556%2Frunastav%2FDSCF4002.jpg&hash=2d6c6241578718db2e133b4308ba5c40b6913919)

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Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 24, 2012, 04:37:06 PM: Cleaning up and smoothing that crown will help accuracy.

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Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: brobb on July 24, 2012, 05:24:20 PM: Runar

Thank you for the excellent detailed pictures. The adjustment for sear engagement is interesting. I have not seen that one before.

Bruce Robb
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: JCKelly on July 25, 2012, 03:44:05 AM: That little pointed screw that adjusts the sear engagement is common on Michigan rifles. So is riveting the toe plate to the buttplate, though usually with one rivet.

Since a good portion of our 19th century gun makers learned their trade in New York state this is not surprizing.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi451.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq240%2F4JamesKelly%2FWickerHaglock001MedFileCrop.jpg&hash=74a2ac23c5b89c0602a31874a5f1f567f2768e2c)
lock from Wicker & Hagadorn, Ypsilanti, two rifle barrels over one shotgun.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 25, 2012, 04:06:46 PM: That would be cool - sort of a reverse Drilling. Is the lower shotgun barrel fired by an underhammer lock like some others I've seen pictures of?
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: JCKelly on July 26, 2012, 03:34:11 AM: This one has two .38 cal rifle barrels over one 16 ga shotgun.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi451.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq240%2F4JamesKelly%2FWickHagMuzlMed019.jpg&hash=492789e879004830efa18345d7271bacf3008184)

Uses conventional back action locks, right and left. (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi451.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq240%2F4JamesKelly%2FWickHagLock0235MedFile.jpg&hash=c161d514cae293ce2da0a1e1107453be53aa7c53)

The right lock fires the right rifle barrel when that little blue steel arm is forward, as in the photo. To fire the shotgun, move the arm back, it transmits the blow of the cock to the lower shotgun, nipple. Hmmmm . . . how does it miss the rifle nipple, you ask? That little webby-part of the cock strikes the blue arm, to transmit the blow to the shotgun cap.
Title: Re: Percussion Sporting Rifle
Post by: Daryl on July 26, 2012, 04:57:13 AM: Yes - good system and simpler than installing a separate underhammer lock. THAT is a NICE rifle/shotgun, James.