AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: davec2 on September 29, 2012, 02:16:03 AM
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This is a continuation of the previous series of posts thanking many of you for the lessons in gun building you have provided over the last several years. (Previous stuff is here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=23271.0 )
At any rate, I have finally finished the first of three rifles I started many years, and a lot less knowledge, ago. After Bill Shipman's last posted rifle, I am a little ashamed to show these pictures. But, since this rifle was almost destined to be firewood, or a fence post, I did what I could to salvage it using the lessons I have learned here and am anxious to sight it in. Actually, I am giving it to my brother-in law, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel, so I hope it shoots straight.
(https://preview.ibb.co/gvkuqx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_A.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hg3fVx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkGOiH/Gary_s_Rifle_1_B.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fXNJHc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hMA5xc/Gary_s_Rifle_1_C.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mDeyHc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mM8Eqx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_D.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e1KLVx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jvJEqx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_E.jpg) (http://ibb.co/f4pLVx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dmUb3H/Gary_s_Rifle_1_F.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eBMCcc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cdoEqx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_G.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jD33iH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jrk5xc/Gary_s_Rifle_1_J.jpg) (http://ibb.co/c2o3iH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jb5SAx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_M.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dSSw3H)
(https://preview.ibb.co/c3MdHc/Gary_s_Rifle_1_L.jpg) (http://ibb.co/keaSAx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkM0Vx/Gary_s_Rifle_1_P.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dUzXcc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kKiscc/Gary_s_Rifle_1_Q.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nrJQxc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kwLG3H/Gary_s_Rifle_1_V.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cUoQxc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iue9OH/Gary_s_Rifle_1_W.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cziscc)
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Sweet and then some.
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Awsome!
Gives me a lot to look up to.
Love the engraving.
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When I look back at my family tree, I think you and I are related. Very nice rifle and generous gift. He is very lucky that BIL of yours. Smylee
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If you have any more of those kind of fenceposts around that you don't need, I could probably find a use for them... ;)
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You have nothing to apologize for here Dave. The rifle is delightful, and would be a significant addition to the best collection. I really like it.
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MUCH more pleasant to look at than that "second" Mona Lisa they claim was recently discovered. ;D
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Very nice!!
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Where's the fence post??
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Dave, Scratch that thought about being ashamed to post your rifle. Love all the engraving.
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Wow
Simply wow.
The engraving is fantabulawesome. Imagine that muzzle inlayed with Gold that would pop
Rich
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Boy, I must have missed a whole series of posts on problem rifles. That is a fine looking piece. Some of us might benefit from a run down on what is supposed to be wrong with it. Danny
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Crisalli,you better insure your hands because you are one gifted fellow! I'll send you the shipping money. I can't have you beating yourself up any more! All nonsense aside, your workmanship is special. I'd like you to do a scrim on my horn.May I pm you?
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You got any other single sisters? ;D
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All I can say is WOW! I wish I could engrave like that.
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Danny,
Things I think are wrong with this rifle:
1. Technically, the first thing I don't like about it is not really "wrong" per se, but this rifle was made with a straight 13/16" barrel. I had never held a swamped barrel rifle when I started this one. After feeling the balance and seeing the lines of a rifle built by John Ennis with a swamped barrel, I don't think I will ever build a straight barreled long rifle again.
2. The rear sight is way too bulky. I will replace or rework it.
3. The front sight needs a bead (per Taylor and Daryl and their posts on sights for older eyes).
4. The engraving is really stark, does not flow well, and the overall designs are disjointed. Parts of the engraving are OK, but the whole is lacking continuity.
5. The carving is, as Acer pointed out in the other post about this rifle, fairly flat and mostly all in the same plane. It is sculpted somewhat, but lacks depth. I tried to add some depth, but couldn't do much with the carving as far along as it was when Acer pointed out the problem.
6. The patch box hinge is atrocious. I used a commercially available brass hinge and just soldered it to the finial and the box lid........... Cheating! Need to make a real patch box hinge next time.
7. Again, this one may not be technically wrong but I'm still not sure I like the dual toe plates...and the engraving is really bad in a couple of spots on both of them. Circles around the screw heads not centered properly. The shell motif is not symetrical and has too many lobes. Che sera sera....I will do better next time.
8. Mostly the whole rifle doesn't look like one made by Huddleston, or Kibler, or Acer, or Shipman, or Taylor or ......many out there are much better guns built by much better masters. And I remain, respectfully, ever the student....and I will keep trying to improve on the second one of these guns I started many years ago.
Thanks to all for the kind comments. And to J. Talbert, sorry, I am fresh out of single sisters.
Leatherbelly, I sent you a PM.
Dave C
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Yeah, it's perty bad all right. :-\ But it's still better than anything Mike Brooks ever made!
I know, I know, that was uncalled for. Heh heh heh. ;D
Wes.
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Yeah, it's perty bad all right. :-\ But it's still better than anything Mike Brooks ever made!
I know, I know, that was uncalled for. Heh heh heh. ;D
Wes.
You're right of course. :P
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Mike, you took that with much grace.
Dave, you have tremendous skill. Your workmanship is top notch. Your artistry is definitely a signature style, very much your own. This is a great 'toolbox' to make a gun with.
There is a conflict of design.
I'm reaching for something here, and I am not really sure if it's misplaced. Bear with me, and take this with a grain of salt, as this is just opinion. What you have done is really a contemporary piece, based on a traditional gun format. The two don't really flow together. I think that creates tension in the piece.
Two things you can do:
1) choose the artistry to fit the gun style and period
2) choose the period and style gun that fits your artistry
If you wanted to apply your artistry to a gun, and have YOUR style fit with the era of the firearm, I would recommend a mid-to-late 19th Century muzzleloading target rifle. False muzzle, take down bolster breech, tang mounted target rear and hooded front sights. Something with a little Western or California flavor.
Just food for thought.
Tom
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Dave.... it is just beautiful...... Thanks for sharing it with us....it is very inspiring!
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Danny,
Things I think are wrong with this rifle:
1. Technically, the first thing I don't like about it is not really "wrong" per se, but this rifle was made with a straight 13/16" barrel. I had never held a swamped barrel rifle when I started this one. After feeling the balance and seeing the lines of a rifle built by John Ennis with a swamped barrel, I don't think I will ever build a straight barreled long rifle again.
2. The rear sight is way too bulky. I will replace or rework it.
3. The front sight needs a bead (per Taylor and Daryl and their posts on sights for older eyes).
4. The engraving is really stark, does not flow well, and the overall designs are disjointed. Parts of the engraving are OK, but the whole is lacking continuity.
5. The carving is, as Acer pointed out in the other post about this rifle, fairly flat and mostly all in the same plane. It is sculpted somewhat, but lacks depth. I tried to add some depth, but couldn't do much with the carving as far along as it was when Acer pointed out the problem.
6. The patch box hinge is atrocious. I used a commercially available brass hinge and just soldered it to the finial and the box lid........... Cheating! Need to make a real patch box hinge next time.
7. Again, this one may not be technically wrong but I'm still not sure I like the dual toe plates...and the engraving is really bad in a couple of spots on both of them. Circles around the screw heads not centered properly. The shell motif is not symetrical and has too many lobes. Che sera sera....I will do better next time.
8. Mostly the whole rifle doesn't look like one made by Huddleston, or Kibler, or Acer, or Shipman, or Taylor or ......many out there are much better guns built by much better masters. And I remain, respectfully, ever the student....and I will keep trying to improve on the second one of these guns I started many years ago.
Thanks to all for the kind comments. And to J. Talbert, sorry, I am fresh out of single sisters.
Leatherbelly, I sent you a PM.
Dave C
Let me pick your self evaluation apart.....
1. Oh well, straight barrel, no big deal....you're forgiven.
2. So what...replace it if you so desire....
3. Who needs a bead....no big deal.
4. Engraving doesn't appear disjointed...it does have continuity and at the same time has contrast...it's neat and orderly.....it appears that each engraved item has elements of each other yet are different and allow the eye to wander.....definitely not boring.
5. The carving is nicely done, stop complaining......if you must do better next time then so be it.
6. Who cares, nobody knew untill now, stop worrying.
7. Who cares, stop worrying, it makes it different than all the rest which is boring.....
8. Stay true to thine self......don't be a copy machine.
.....go build another rifle.........
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Mike, you took that with much grace.
I'm comfortable with my work so the truth doesn't hurt. This guy is a helluva engraver and carves just as well as I do so what's the big deal about saying so? Comparing our work is difficult, he builds highly decorated contemporary styled guns, and I don't. Apples and oranges.
This is a fine gun and the builder shouldn't be so hard on himself. I like the engraving the most, always have like checkerboard areas and try to use them to some extent on my own work when I can. Again, not something I'd build, but a very nice gun nun the less.
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A really neat gun Dave! I think the metal work is generally quite nice. Unique and different, but still appealing. I think the stock work is not quite up to the level of the metal work. There are some aspects of the architecture and carving designs that could be improved. With that said, it's still a very nice piece with lots of appeal. With regard to the metal work and engraving designs, it does seem to have a bit of a neoclassical feel with the geometric shapes and paneled elements in the design. I think there is opportunity to incorporate this style into the stocking a bit more. I know this is a stretch, but some of the elements on the metal parts give me the feel of Fordney work. Might be interesting to look at some of this. Just some thoughts.... A nice rifle. Thanks for posting!
Jim
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Wow, thanks! Something for me to look up to.
Paul
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First of all, thank you to all for your constructive comments. My main purpose for posting this rifle is to garner criticism and methods of improving...and to thank you all again for all the help along the way over the last several years. I'm not great at this but feel I am getting better by applying what I have learned from all of you. And actually, to loosen up my style some I would like to make a rifle mimicking each of your styles...a Brooks, a Kibler, an Ennis, a Stephen Alexander, a Huddleston, a Curran, a Taylor S. etc., if that's OK with you guys. (Not that I can do it, but I feel I will learn a lot in the attempt.)
Jim Kibler: You commented on a rifle made by Chris Warner the other day and you said,
"It's a neat gun. Some unique and creative approaches. I don't see a great deal of continuity with the eintire piece, though. Like so many guns I don't get the feeling of it being "one" or having the "entire package"."
I think these comments equally apply to this rifle of mine. (And I actually get the same feel looking at a lot of pictures of original guns, except for the high end British types). This one is a little disjointed. Too may bits and pieces that don't all go together. Its sort of like trying to assemble a jigsaw picture of Heidi Clum using pieces of photos of other beautiful women. The result is just not quite the same and the lines don't flow as well. You are also correct about the carving. Same sort of thing Acer is discussing in his post here. Learning the mechanics of gun building is one thing. Learning the style and artistry involved is quite another and something I need to improve.
Dave C
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Absolutely out standing. :o
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I'd like to jump in on this one more time. You are a great engraver, probably too good for honest colonial/American work. You're ready to jump into some english stuff in my opinion. Practice some english shell carving at the breech and english archetecture and you'll be ready to really nail the british stuff. You got more than 1/2 the battle won there with the quality of your engraving.
There are some areas that bother me, probably more so because our styles differ so. The finish is too shiney for me, maybe a pumice rub back would do some good. There may be a little extra wood in the buttstock for a gun of this late-ish period....where the wrist meets the nose might have been scooped out a bit more. Your carving may be flat, not un heard of on originals of the period, but you engraving is so !@*%&@ good it makes it unbalanced. At any rate, it's a !@*%&@ good gun. How many have you built?
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It may not flow or be ballanced or any of the thing you kik yourself for but your gun is still outstanding in so many respects. The workmanship is IMHO outstanding. I enjoy looking at it. Smylee
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Dave,
I like your rifle. Like others have pointed out, the stock has some issues that are attributed primarily to beginning builders. Lord knows I made all those mistakes. I'm betting that's because the rifle was started a while ago. I would also bet, based on your carving, and especially engraving, you'd address any of those issues in a new project.
I'd love to see you undertake an English Fowler, or English Sporting Rifle, maybe a Jager. Your engraving is awesome, and would compliment a piece like that. Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks for posting!
Ed
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Mike,
What engraving I know I learned from Jerry Huddleston, so I had a good start on that front. I am collecting parts for a rosewood stocked English style half stock rifle, so I will give your recommendation a try, hopefully soon. I do need more carving practice first as well. I recently tracked down Steven Alexander who built an English style rifle I saw in an advertisement photo 25 years ago. I have had the ad photo above my work bench all these years and will endeavor to make something remotely in the same class as Steven's rifle.
You are spot on about the stock finish. I have been experimenting for quite some time with a myriad of commercial finishes and several leaded linseed oil blends I have been making in small batches. I haven't hit on anything I really like yet except for a finish I bought back in 1971 from the Crane Creek Company. (No longer in business but I have one can left that I am having chemically analyzed by a friend of mine.) This rifle was finished with Lee Valley polymerized Tung Oil sealer. It was not so shiney until I put on the last rub down and then I realized I went too far. Although I have always listened to the debates about varnish / oil, shiney / dull, fast finish, slow finish, etc., without being any smarter for all my efforts, I will probably rub it back at some point. What do you use to finish your stocks?
As far as the extra wood at the wrist, the huge disadvantage for me, out here in the Peoples Republic of California, is that I don't know anywhere I can go to see originals. Without seeing and handling, it is really hard to be intimate with the architecture of a well made rifle from pictures and verbal descriptions. But I get your point.
This is actually my 5th rifle, although I consider it the first in my "modern" era. The first two I scratch built in high school in the late 1960s based on what details I could see in 2 inch square black and white photos in a Dixie Gun Works catalog. I still have the rifles, they shoot great, but they look like $#*!. The next two were built when I was a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy in the 1970s. (Not allowed to build guns in your room there so I had to hide all the parts and tools in an elevator machinery room !) They are a matched set for my father and I, built from pictures I had in a Golden Age Arms catalog...not much bigger or better than the Dixie pictures. They are much better rifles, with home made locks, but still not up to any standards you would recognize. Then I started this one (#5) 30 years later...and then stopped almost immediately when I found this site because I found I was on the wrong path again. While waiting (and reading) to get smart enough to build another "good" long rifle, I put together a couple of pistols, a 4 gage blunderbuss, and a Ferguson.
I still work full time as an aerospace engineer, so I don't have the time I would like to devote to getting better at this, but, that's life. All the more reason that I do very much appreciate the time many of you spend in explaining how and why you build these lovely rifles the way you do to novices like me.
One of the older space engineers I began working with when I first got out of the Navy used to call the space craft we built "magnificent machines of exploration". I have often thought of these long rifles, in their era, as magnificent machines of exploration. Certainly no 17th, 18th, or 19th century explorer went off on a journey of discovery without a rifle he could trust.
Ed;
You and I were typing at the same time. Thanks for the encouragement. I will attempt to address the stock issues...the hard part is being smart enough to recognize what the issues are. That's where the advice I get here is invaluable.
dave C
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I'm no expert and therefore cannot offer any advice or critique on your work.
I do however know a beautiful piece of craftsmanship when I see one.
That being said I think you did an excellent job on this rifle. :)
By the way, what lumber store did you get that fence post from ? ;D
Scout
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Every time this thread comes around, I have to look. I am not sure if it is as good as I think, but, WOW.
I just got a 5" Engravers Ball today. Used, and I have little time to practice, but I am psyched!
I have the Foredom Stone Setting set up,
http://www.stuller.com/products/34-2250/?groupId=17760
Just a small matter to get a square graver and start practice! I even have faceting machines to sharpen with.
I will probably start with the Mike Brooks CD on engraving I have.
That is an inspiring rifle. I love it.
Well done.
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The best way to take the new shine off that rifle is to use it and use it a lot. I could do that for you. No problem at all, in fact I would feel a great privilege had been bestowed upon me if I was called on to do so. I am at your service.
Joe
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I have always admired a good fence post.
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Most times I dont give guns with this much decoration a second look. Im a plain working poor mans gun kind of guy after all, Im a redneck BUT this one I do like. To me its got the fancy but usable look to it. Lots of time put into it. You have talent my friend ;D
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Dave,
Having put in miles of fence post and cut tons of firewood I can give you an expert opinion. That is a nice rifle! love the engraving. I am fortunate to own several nice old English hammer double shotguns. I agree with the gentlemen here that your style would due justice to English fowler or Rigby English sporting rifle. Look forward to seeing your next fence post.
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As to the self-critique: yes, that's exactly what it takes to push man from craftsman to artist. As my pal Richie says (a master of his trade) "Imperfection is Perfection". Which reflects the drive of the perfectionist in those who create the finest works. And the knowing that if _everything_ went perfectly on a particular piece and it were _perfect_ then there'd be no way to top that, but that all the little imperfections (even if only in the maker's eye) are what give each piece full character and allow the master to continue to seek perfection.
Critical exchange is what it takes to "tune up" the works. I'm too old for school, but keep learnin' every day.
Great gun, good inspiration, thanks for sharing and all for the discussion.
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Love the engraving.
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You built a fine, fine gun. The receipient is one lucky fellow! The engraving bestowed on the metal is in a class by itself; truly inspired. Then, too, the Beck/Sherry style of carving behind the cheek rest is pretty fine also. Note that you are a west coaster; I'm a little further south of you, but out here too. Keep up the good work. Let us know how he likes it.
Dick
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This work deserves another go around
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DaveC2
Your engraving is some of the most attractive I have seen. it has an "Old fashioned" look to it. its like looking at history.
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Dave thank you for sharing this work. You always have shown that you are a talented builder and engraver and this work is just another example. It's hard to compare Colonial work to todays work. You and a few others on this site do very exacting work and there is nothing wrong with that and it has it's place in the ever evolving and continuing Long Rifle Culture. We builders are our own worse critiques, I know I have never been totally happy with any rifle I have ever built. This rifle may have flaws in your eyes but from the appearance it looks to be a quality firearm, at the end of the day if it shoots and functions as it should then be happy with a job well done.
The old school makers did beautiful work and we admire and drool over them. Very few did work that is as exacting as this work, yet we love their product. Once you really step away from trying to recreate an original work style then we tend to lose a little of the things that make the old work appeal to us. I find it's the little things that not not perfect in the old work that appeals to me. The evidence of tool marks in the wood and metal, some parts not fit perfectly, the variance of how things are done in the building process.
Modern builders are striving for perfection and one upmanship and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, it is needed for the culture to grow. We just need to remember to where we started from and never get so good to appreciate where we came from on our way to where we are going.
Again, fabulous work and you should be very proud of it, but don't ever stop trying to do a better job on the next one. Thanks for sharing.
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Impressive design and execution....I've enjoyed the view.
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Great rifle,,,"………..this post is 11 years old.
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Thank you all again for the constructive critique and kind words (past and present). I was more than a little shocked to see this old post pop up again...I had forgotten I built this one. Since 2012 it has resided with my brother-in-law in St. Louis. I was visiting there not too long ago and saw the rifle in person for the first time in many years. Not bad, but it really didn't look any better to me now than it did when I made it more than a decade ago. I have learned a lot along the way from the members of this board over that period of time.....several of whom have, sadly, passed away since this original post was made... (Memento homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris).
I thank you all again for the help, encouragement, advice, great ideas, and inspiration to keep at it.
Best,
David