AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: BrushCountryAg03 on December 07, 2012, 01:36:37 AM
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Today is like many I've had where I feel like I want to either just quit building or throw things around for about half an hour or the combination of both.
I sometimes find myself seriously questioning whether or not I have any business building rifles/pistols. I got my first build pretty much right, however I've been plagued with "self-inflicted" disasters on every project since then...On the positive side, I very seldom repeat the insignificant mistakes, and almost never repeat the serious ones, but DAMNITT there's always something new going wrong!!!
I guess I'm looking for some encouragement or at least somebody who'll hopefully tell me that I'm not the only person who's ever felt this way at any point in time while building these things...
Is there such a thing as building a flawless project?
Are you supposed to have flawless builds like the ones I've seen on my DVD's whether it's Hershel House, Mike Miller, or James Turpin after a few builds, every time, or does that just come with from years upon years of experience?
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Everything has flaws.
Don't try to build something flawless, it's not a good goal. You'll end up frustrated everytime you make a mistake. For me, I make them all the time, but as I build more guns, the mistakes (most of the time ;D ) are smaller.
I sigh, and move on.
It ain't easy, being human.
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One problem is not building all the time. When I was building more often, each step was more practiced in my head, more programmed in.
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A sign of a true craftsmen is Fixing the mistakes that are made. Some guns just seem to go together, others just want to fight you all the way!! They usually turn out the best. Just keep at it!!! ;)
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Im a mistake magnet. They hunt me down. I can invent new mistakes but I just keep on building. So far all of mine have been cosmetic cause the ones I've built so far shoot great, they just look awful. Keep on building ;D
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I'm just finishing up my first build in 40 years and if it makes you feel less discouraged, or puts things into perspective, I've made a horrendous number of mistakes here.
Everything from ruining a fine Getz barrel (I won't say how), to bandsawing though a lock panel after inletting a barrel in a plank, to cracking a brass butt plate in a nearly completed rifle. Architectural and carving misadventures etc..
Almost completed and still room for more screw ups (I hope not), and glad I've been stubborn (and compulsive) and haven't given up. Most mistakes are recoverable one way or another.
Keep at it!
John
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Just want to add, use this forum and post pics if possible as you'll find the advice here valuable and you'll build a better gun.
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I could write a book on how not to do things, (from experience) chuck
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Man, what Rich said is a huge problem for me. When I was a carpenter, I was able to do a lot of my job automatically. But with the gun building, jeeesh it seems I find new ways to make new mistakes on every build.
I am getting much better at not getting worked up about them though.
The other aspect is that these things are so complex in some ways, with so many subtle details, that I don't know that most folks ever get one completely "right".
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Whoa up there SSS… Let's use another frame, one with a different perspective. Did you suddenly and permanently lose your health; did someone close to you die; lose your income? Did the house burn down or did some commie space debris destroy your car?
Still got beer?
You will figure it out, you will have better builds and days. Frustrations suck, I know, because I make mistakes too. Remember: "AUT VIAM INVENIAM AUT FACIAM!"
dp
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I don't know the answer to your question. However after my first build, which came out pretty good, I was still disappointed with myself for a couple areas I hadn't been able to resolve. Then I went to an antique arms show and got to examine a few original guns built by some of the better known makers. Low and behold these originals had the same problem areas I had struggled with. Since then I have been a lot more forgiving of my mistakes and a lot more original in figuring out how to make them insignificant too.
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Like that rule about hand tools injuring, power tools maiming... same goes for building stuff...
I find there is a direct proportion between how fast a tool is moving and how much I f... things up.
Its in a whole nother spectrum to actually doing things right to begin with. But I'm not going to give up yet, way to much to learn.
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somebody who'll hopefully tell me that I'm not the only person who's ever felt this way at any point in time while building these things...
Is there such a thing as building a flawless project?
I have an original Belgian Percussion SxS 12Ga from 1860s made by Schepers. It's a best quality gun. Gold and silver inlays, fully engraved everywhere, GORGEOUS wood clearly a gun built by a master for someone offering a blank check.
It has not one, but TWO very well hidden repairs where a mistake was made during the lock inletting.
So no. I seriously doubt it.
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I always try for perfect. But when working with wood especially its not really possible .
The wood has a great deal to do with this. Simple stocks like one would find on a 1870s Sharps for example are less prone to disasters.
In relief carving you may find areas (or the whole thing) of the stock that simply will not hold the carving or sculpting planned. Pieces chip out for no apparent reason or do to the makers excesses.
As a result there are always flaws hiccups, glued in pieces. Restaining, even tattooing to get the stuff to look right.
So if there are "difficulties" don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Only I know where the bodies are buried in any stock I make or why the carving is not done as it might have been. Perhaps because further attempts to refine it caused pieces to flake away in an anotherwise hard piece of wood that holds inlay cuts well.
AAARRGGHH. Well actually I say other things but AARRGGHH is suitable for mixed company...
Misdrilled holes in lock plates, brass castings cracked while being worked.
Dan
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I'm on build number 3. This time a pistol. Is it screwed up, yep, should have seen the piece of junk wood that I started with. Just enough thickness to work with and just tall enough to get everything in. I was told by an old gunsmith in the area. That the trick to being a good gunsmith is knowin how to hide your mistakes. I believe there is a lot of truth in that. Just think, Maybe with enough mistakes that become repeatative, might become a different "School" of building. Look at it from a positive angle.
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I haven't made any mistakes... :'( but I sure have discovered a bunch of different ways how not to do stuff! ::)
pake
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Everything has flaws.
Some people even start out with flaws, then you don't have to worry about making them, only fixing them. I'm working on this stock now. 99.9% of people would have rejected this piece of wood. I find it beautiful and the flaws will add to its character. The cracks have been stabilized for 30 years and will not hurt the structural integrity of the gun. Expect to find these flaws in the crotchwood mentioned in another post.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FEnglish%2520rifle%2Fskeleton%2520rifle%2Fstock4.jpg&hash=9c42aee6a6c137bfb0c0cc7d489eb759e94cb6b7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FEnglish%2520rifle%2Fskeleton%2520rifle%2Fstock1.jpg&hash=b2abd31e886d2da04925c0cce0bb717c61ae5870)
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I wish I could post a picture of an 1815 Harper's Ferry musket with a "huge" knot right in front of the butt plate. Amazing work and character!
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It's not at all uncommon to find repaired defects on original work, especially English and Continental stuff. They typically patched cracks, voids etc. Was viewed as perfectly acceptable practice.
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I have built many guns and every one had something I was unhappy with. I would suggest you just keep on building
and learn from your mistakes...........Don
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Take a page from the the Bob Ross school of gunmaking. You aren't making mistakes. They are "happy accidents". :D The more of them you make, the more you learn and the better you get at hiding them. ;D The next thing you know, they are calling you a master!
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I don’t think in 30+ years , I have ever made one that I would consider perfect .
Seems the longer you work on a project , the more your mind finds things that are wrong or you just don’t like .
a lot of times others wont even see an issue even though you may .. When that happens , if you can , let that area be for a while . Move on to a new area .
Past that . We all make mistakes , as Don Getz said ; learn from them .
Think of each mistake that you fix , as a added tool in your experience box
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Nope no such thing as a perfect hand made anything. I once found encouragement in a statement made by one of the Master gunsmiths in our grand hobby. His statement and I quote " I would love to build one rifle that did not have glue in it". So I do not worry about building a perfect rifle, I just worry about doing my very best work and let the end results be what they are.
I find I enjoy rifle building much more when I do that. So don't beat yourself up, relax and enjoy the ride.
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To me the biggest part of the appeal of building longrifles is that each and every one is a unique creation. Even when you are building two "Identical" rifles they will be different enough that parts won't interchange. As a matter of fact I number my ram rod pipes so they go back into the same inlet they were made for.
If I was able to build them perfectly every time, I think there would be no challenge and I would quickly loose interest and stop building.
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Two Quotes from my Yacht building days:
"He who makes no mistaces, does no work!"
"It's not how badly you screw up, It's how gracefully you recover!!"
;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :-[ :-X :-\ :'( :-*
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If I had a dime for every mistake I have ever made,I would
be able to afford a Duesenberg car at today's prices.
Who was it that said,"Breathes there a man with soul so dead
that has never cut his hand and bled"?
Bob Roller
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A friend of mine said only God ca make perfect things, If your gun is coming out perfect make a mistake so people won't think you are God so sayith George Seisler ;)
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Reporter: "Mr. Edison,Doesn't failing 2300 times at making a light bulb dicourage you?"
Mr. Edison: "No, I learned 2300 way's NOT to make a light bulb!"
My first gun has so many mistakes you cant count them! I still shoot her to this day,my personal favorite.
Dont give up,we all have these day's.
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At some point in time we all cross over from mistakes to Awcrap Moments.....
Something doesn't work out quite so well and just say: "Aaaaaaaaw $#@*!", then you fix it.......
..........and like Dan said, I too aim for perfection. My wife will say I'm a slob and I'll just reply I'm the perfect slob. Sometime that gets you out of household type duties.....the honeydo list that so far has taken a forest to write........
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I have gone to bed agonizing over some disaster or another in (usually) wood or metal.
Wake up in the AM go to the shop and find its not that bad and its can be fixed or worked around.
When you think you have really blown it, walk away and come back with a fresh mind and it may not be as bad as you thought.
I have fixed some REALLY serious blunders in my day, some by me and at least one by a co-worker these on CUSTOMERS ANTIQUES or FAMILY HEIRLOOMS. (this last was enough to make a person bite rocks)
So like I said
Nobody should feel like the Lone Ranger.
Dan
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It is actually a distinct sort of fun to fix problems. I work at a pace that feels right, to a standard that I'm comfortable with (I would never sell one, because I'd have to "compromise" :)), and enjoy the whole thing in my own twisted way. I do it to better understand rifles (and the culture around them) I admire. The end result is always imperfect, though functional, but that almost doesn't matter (as long as it shoots) as the process is what I enjoy.
Ask yourself why you do it. If it is to produce a perfect gun or get the admiration of others, then you likely won't ever achieve your goal long term, nor will you get much enjoyment out of the process for long. Probably there is a better reason you got into this mess, though, so take out the glue, the hacksaw, or whatever you need and get back to it :)!
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Seems like most of us peons can wax long and in detail on this subject. Keep in mind, if you like, that the glue pot was standard equipment in 'theday'...
We have noticed that it is a learning curve and most of us never live or work long enough to reach the peak. A time arrives that we notice our skill actually dropping off and we have to ponder and study the matter carefully b/4 making the next move on a build. (Or am I alone in this) It gets a little scary at times , its age I guess. :-X
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I dont' think I'll ever get through a project with out a mistake or other hickup. However, The goofs become smaller as a rule and expierence leads to better fixes. BJH
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I have gone to bed agonizing over some disaster or another in (usually) wood or metal.
Wake up in the AM go to the shop and find its not that bad and its can be fixed or worked around.
This has happened to me several times. A couple of them I was seriously close to breaking the stock across the work bench! Then the next AM it wasn't nearly as bad and in some cases didn't even require a repair, just removal of more wood in other areas.
Dennis
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Here's my "headache" from yesterday...Sorry I didn't respond to anyone yesterday...I posted this topic then decided to chill out before checking back today.
This is a .69 caliber swamped barrel that I decided to make somewhat reminiscent of an original English pistol from the late 1700's. There's a few places I need to fix, but I guess they won't ruin the overall project after all. Hopefully I can get the trigger guard, thimbles, & buttcap inletted this evening.
I really do appreciate everyone's thoughtfulness and encouragement...Believe me, I needed it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq498%2FBrushCountryAg03%2Fimage.jpg&hash=b382afebfa3b98122c4a3e8e32170b46daee5b12)
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The fact that you got 30+ responses in a 24 hr. period speaks volumes.
If you really want to lose some sleep try cutting your tennon dovetails in the SIDE of a $200 swamped barrel. The moral of that story is to either work or talk to a visitor, but not both at the same time.
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".....either work or talk to a visitor, but not both at the same time."
Whenever someone wanders into my shop, friends, neighbors or customers, machines are shut down, all work stops. An instant of inattention can cause hours of grief. Having the phone ring is another distraction that can ruin your concentration and cause you to do something stupid.
Just yesterday I was just getting ready to smack a stamp into a lock plate. The phone rings and I answer it. After a 10 minute conversation I go back to what I was doing. Where is the stamp? Look around for several minutes and finally find it next to the phone where I set it down. I pick it up and take it back to the bench, line it up on the lock plate, give 'er a big smack with a two pound hammer and the result is BARNETT neatly stamped UPSIDE DOWN. rrrrrr It took two hours to "erase" it with a TIG welder, let it cool, and dress it back and re stamp it correctly.
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A buddy of mine is at the pinnacle of his trade (getting top dollar and only taking clients as he chooses, multi-year waiting list) and they made a video with him regarding his work: Imperfection is Perfection.
In which he expresses that you'll never build the perfect, everything went perfect, thing* (if you are a perfectionist). AND that he's happy with that as the perfectionist will never quit trying to build the perfect one, closing the gap, but never quite completely--for if he/she did, THEN everything thereafter wouldn't be as good. That it would be time to quit and take on a new master.
mistake and flaw management (especially when wood is involved) is everything. everything after basic competency and workflow i suppose.
*be it a handmade rifle, bicycle, suit of armor...
contrasted to the production environment where, so long as tolerances are maintained and employees show up...there is no perfect-nor is it sought. only adequate or "within parameters" of that sort of making of things. also there's more pitching it to the dumpster rather than fixing the mistakes i that case. they have quotas to fill and bean-counters to satisfy.
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For others it may vary, but for me its 4,718 and counting!
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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As I stated recently on another board related to a certain maker's guns
"I have pulled two old partly finished projects out of the closet in the past month. both ones I put away after making a mistake on them, I may not be any better a craftsman than I was when I goofed up on them, but I am more experienced at fixing mistakes now."
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Looking through the videos on Midway's site (trying to figure out a checkering kit I got for christmas before the book I ordered arrives) found this video on how to use shellack and sandpaper to fix cracks and knot holes...
http://www.midwayusa.com/General.mvc/Index/VideoLibrary
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I don't believe my projects will ever be "right". Major mistakes, walk away and come back the next day. The mistake then becomes an interesting challenge. Minor ones, continue working and look at the f---up as something that will make your work session just a little bit longer. In either case the fixing procees is educational. Probably won't make the same mistake again but will make a new one the next time. :)
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The challenge for me is to work at a decent " workman-like " pace and minimize mistakes . I haven't really built in a year and just inlet a barrel into a blank in the last week. As Rich Pierce alluded to earlier, the more you are working at this , the better I think you become process wise. You don't have to think and re-think what you are doing to avoid mistakes. And yes, my barrel channel inlet has mistakes, I'll hide them the best I that I can.
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Not to worry! I think we are in the same boat. I can say that once in a great while a rifle will fall together for me, but it is seldom. The one I finished last week worked against me from the very start. Some days everything seemed not to flow well, and I would lay the tools down and go watch TV or listen to the oldies. I didn't relax and enjoy the rifle until the last screw was installed and the rifle sighted in. I can say that this rifle is one of the ones I would like to keep for myself. For some reason, it was a bear to build, but it turned out to be a keeper. Looked, felt, and shot great. To date, I have only built 55 rifles since I got hooked, and I can say that I have not completed a rifle without having to work through some type of issue. Most of the time, the issue is something that no one notices or cares about except for me. I think we are our worst critics of our own work, at least in my instance. At one time, I could build a plain mountain rifle in 40 hours or so, but now it takes me a bit over a 100 hours to build the same type of rifle. I think I have gotten more picky as I have went along, because I try to make each rifle better than the last. Good luck, and go with the flow. It is well worth the effort.
Roger Sells
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Of all the threads on alr, I find this one the most genuine inspiring honest amusing need I say more. Thank you so much. My first build is sitting in a corner. I was afraid to even start it because I know myself and was avoiding failure. This gives me the courage to move forward. Thanks to all.
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Guys,
I never have gotten one really right. However, I think of my errors as just "mid course corrections". This is a gun where the barrel was planned to be a swamped octagon, 44 inch long. But a serious flaw in my crummy weld caused it to end up as a 38 inch long octagon to round. A real bummer and a lot of work and rework before I gave up and cut the barrel back several inches shorter! Oh well, I am still happy with it.
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/lehigh/Lehigh1a-1.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Guns/lehigh/Lehigh1a-1.jpg.html)
Advice, be flexible with your planned outcome and be happy with the results because nobody else is perfect, either!
Jim
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What a great thread!! It has raised my confidence level a bar or two! I was reluctant to share by "doins" and showing all the greenhorn mistakes I've made and being laughed at.
I was basically a shooter and not a builder but did build a full stock hawken type rifle that I have been shooting for the longest time. It's a .54-- 1 1/8" X 42" Bill Large barrel, L&R lock and triggers. Looks like a fence post but shoots really well. It weight is just short of 13#! Up until then I was shooting an iron mounted .40cal. Tennessee rifle.
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I am in total agreement with James Wilson Everett. I often need to change my concept mid-stream, because I took too much wood off, or made something too short, or screwed something up. Then I try to make it look like I planned it that way!
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When I was building regularly I found that each rifle taught me something new that improved the outcome of the next build. Problem is that there are probably at least a couple of dozen key decisions that have a significant impact on a gun's appearance or function. Each lesson is typically learned by first making an error and only then discovering how to do it correctly and then to accumulate the skills to actually execute the correct build next time around. So it can take at least several rifles - usually more before even an astute learner can be making guns that are good enough. I read a lot, asked a lot of questions of more experienced people, planned a lot, visualized a lot in my mind and practiced a lot on practice pieces before I actually committed my hand to the real thing - be it a kit gun or a scratch built rifle. I don't think any of these were faultless but some where getting pretty good by the end. That was 20 years ago and I am only now beginning to think about getting back into building guns. I wonder if its like riding a bike.............maybe I will soon find out.
Oh there is one other thing that is worth mentioning too. Some days I found I was just "not in the groove" and no matter how careful I was I could not get the result I was trying for. I learned that on those days it paid huge dividends if I just put my tools down, left the workshop and went to have a quiet beer. With a bit of luck the next time I came back to the workbench I would be back on top of my game and able to do things without making errors. When I tried to "bust through or bust" generally I just busted.
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Guys,
Amen on what Peterm1 said, some days I really should not be handling any sharp objects!
Jim
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No one knows how many mistakes there are but I can assure you that before you make the 'Perfect' rifle you will have made each and everyone of them. Some more than once.
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If it shoots reliably........... ENJOY it.
You are the only critic that really counts.
Mike
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The slower I go the sooner I get done.
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I am reminded of a carpenter friend of mine who was told that his customer expected a perfect result.
He responded that he did not do perfect, but only he knew where the mistakes were.
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Anyone care to guess how many unfinished guns I have?
This thread has inspired me to get back in the shop.
Hessian
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Not one more than the last mistake, that about ought to do it. ;D