AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Larry Pletcher on January 03, 2013, 08:29:55 PM
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I'm finally getting around to a test of lock lubricants. We often discuss a lubes ability to prevent rust. For this test I'm interested only the ability to prevent friction. I want to see if there is a measurable difference in lock speed with different lubricants. I suspect that there are numerous favorites. I'll probably select a group of 5 or 6 to time. I have some gut predictions but, I hope to supply numbers.
There are many problems with variables in this attempt. However, there is always something to learn, even if it is unexpected. I'd like to try it and see what happens. Feel free to suggest lubes you like, keeping in mind that preventing friction is our only concern in this test.
Regards.
Pletch
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Well,I'll start it off with one I use. Accralube from Jim Chambers.
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Will you be completly cleaning the locks after each lube test? I assume you would and what lock/locks will you be using?
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The lock in question is a Siler that I've used for testing since the '80s. It was recently rebuilt by Jim. The plan is to clean the lock dry of lube with acetone or some such solvent. While dry of lube it will be timed as a control. The "dry" test will be limited in numbers for obvious reasons.
Before each new lube test, the lock will be cleaned, finishing with a solvent. Then the lock will be lubed for the next test.
Regards,
Pletch
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Pletch, try this one, it's not suppose to be temperature sensitive. Bob
http://www.gamaliel.com/pwaccessories/ponsness-warren-stos-lubricant-2-oz-jar.asp
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Stick with things folks are likely to use, stuff like Ballistol, 3-in-1, etc.
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Teflon in spray form..
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Something with a good bit of moly in it would be nice to test, but it might mess up your tests. I use the (out of production) Beeman version of this:
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Moly_Metal_to_Metal_Paste_1_oz/3498
I put it on lightly when assembling a lock and about every year afterwards, with a light oil for each cleaning in between. The moly adheres to the metal for a long time.
Two caveats. 1) Not everything that says "moly" has enough to do any good. 2) If it does, the moly is extremely difficult to remove completely :)!
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Super lube by Permatex, is what I use. It comes in a tube, and is clear. It is very slick, and as to its toxicity, its food grade.
Hungry Horse
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I appreciate your desire to isolate just the lubricating quality but I suspect the reality is that most shooters will probably use the same oil or grease on the entire lock. (Unlike some modern handguns that need a high pressure lube on the slide.) I have always believed that the camming surface on the tumbler would probably benefit from one of those but really doubt that any but the most intense competitive target shooter would take the time and effort.
All of that said, I would recommend including those general purpose rust preventative oils actually being used. My personal choice is a CLP sold under the trade name of BreakFree. I believe the military adopted it as a multi-purpose cleaner, lub, and preservative. When I clean the lock with hot water and it looks totally free of fowling I dry it and then hose it down with Break Free --- more fowling always washes off--- After a few minutes I dry it and leave it in all the pivot and sliding surfaces.
Gary
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I use bear oil, refined by myself. It works extremely well :D
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I use bear oil, refined by myself. It works extremely well :D
And to state the obvious, is anything really slicker than owl's grease :) ?
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AMSOIL spray lube.
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3 In 1 Sewing Machine Oil.
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i've recently started using tallow, deer grease ;D, on everything-mostly to prevent rust on my straight razors and other high-carbon cutting tools. It's quite slick too, but excess might cause a problem in the sub-zero conditions up yonderville.
i often use Naphtha* for fine internals were clean is as important as a lubed. Old gunsmith advised this years ago. Said that enough residual lubrication is left after the solvent evaporates. Would like to see if it's measurable. It's certainly clean and non-dust-attracting.
*most often in the form of cigarette lighter fluid (ala wick lighters), or camp stove/lantern fuel. used to be called "white gas", but is _not_ gasoline.
Seafoam Deep Creep gets used a lot 'round my shop.
Wurth 2000 (Wurth HHS-K the EPA complaint name for HHS 2000) is a supreme penetrating lubricant. I use this sparingly but would love to see it tested. You might borrow a can from a friendly high-end mechanic, as it's kinda pricey. It sprays out watery thin for penetration, then sets up to a higher viscosity.
one more vote for the legendary owl snot too. :D :D :D
Hey, once you knock off the first set of these experiments--and have a winner, then we can (you can-thanks Larry!) assemble another group to try to dethrone the champion. I have a whole 'nuther sort of lubes to suggest if we get to a second or third round.
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Thank you all. I probably will have more lubes mentioned than I can test. The choices may need to be samples that are representative of a lube classes. I agree with Gary than most shooters use a single lube for all lock parts. Gary's idea about a high pressure lube on sliding surfaces was mentioned to me by Jim Chambers. He is experimenting with a two part lube system using a liquid on rotating parts and a high pressure lube for the tumbler and frizzen contact with the spring. Jim gave me a sample of these lubes to time. The idea is that the sliding surfaces need a lube that isn't wiped off.
I didn't mean to rule out lubes used for rust prevention, but will only try to use lock speed to compare friction or lack of it.
The problem with this test will likely be variables that flint and flint edge wear. Flint issues may be a larger variable than lubes. Frankly I expect to see a difference between lubed and unlubed, but maybe differences between lubes will be hard to see. We won't know until se try.
Regards,
Pletch
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How about OX-YOKE Originals Best Dam Gun Oil..........
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our very own flintlock mythbuster! thanks again for all your timing work Mr. Pletcher.
Could you substitute something in place of a flint in order to reduce that variable? We're looking at speed not spark right?
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I sometimes use a choke tube lube on main spring bearing points and frizzen cam. Usually I use Chambers Accra lube. I tend to like a thin oil thick oils gum up things too much.
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our very own flintlock mythbuster! thanks again for all your timing work Mr. Pletcher.
Could you substitute something in place of a flint in order to reduce that variable? We're looking at speed not spark right?
Wade,
At Friendship in Sept, Jim and I talked about that. I have infrared gates that will allow a measure of mechanical time only. they are tricky to adjust properly, and I was afraid to mention the possibility. If the preparation can be done reliably, I'd use them. If not I'd resort to flints and measure ignition. This is an old system. I used it for Vol. 4 of Journal of Historic Armsmaking Journal. With some luck I may get it all together.
Steve Chapman, ALR member, lives near me and sometimes is available to help.
Regards,
Pletch
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I have used LSA ( Lubricant, Small Arms) on my locks until I realized I was getting low with no resource for replacement in sight. I now just use Rig grease on the pressure points and CLP on the rest.
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I use bear oil, refined by myself. It works extremely well :D
I use bear oil also, just a little apllied with a Q-Tip. About every 3rd or fourth range trip. Stripped with 91% alcohol first. Works as good as anything else. 3an1 works good also.
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Laugh all you want. I like Amsoil synthetic 20/50 motorcycle oil used sparingly.
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Laugh all you want. I like Amsoil synthetic 20/50 motorcycle oil used sparingly.
I'm not laughing at all, both mine and my parents vehicles are bumper to bumper Amsoil lubricants. The only reason I switched Birchwood-Casey Barricade on my guns instead of their MP spray is because I can get it in the 4 ounce bottle and apply it by the drop.
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I brought my testing set-up into the basement . My garage is heated but I'd rather not run temps up and down because of some old cars. Will if I have to. I will be testing infrared gates and begining to figure out the methods.
I have to thank an ALR guy for a real stroke of luck. He offered me a sample of whale oil to include in the tests. That gives us a chance to include what I expect is the best of colonial lubes available.
Regards,
Pletch
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Laugh all you want. I like Amsoil synthetic 20/50 motorcycle oil used sparingly.
why would anybody laugh. lubes are personal (now there's laugh) ;), and now that you brought it up, synthetics that is, I do have a bit of Amsoil ATF and no AT for it to be used in.
Then i have bunch of lubes made for chain-drives open to the elements and dust of the road/trail. Many of these go on wet and then dry (paraffin components) so as pick up less dust and crud of normal operation. As i see it, that's the biggest problem with any lubricated thing-keeping the lube clean. Dirty lube or excess (frozen) lube is the bane of anything lubricated.
But my guess is that Larry's trials will show less variation than one might expect...wagering beings. ;D
omigosh-whale oil!!!
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I use bear oil, refined by myself. It works extremely well :D
And to state the obvious, is anything really slicker than owl's grease :) ?
Yes there is. If you have a pimply teenager you already have the best and cheapest oil you can get.......okay, maybe not "cheap:. ;D
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I'm finally getting around to a test of lock lubricants. We often discuss a lubes ability to prevent rust. For this test I'm interested only the ability to prevent friction. I want to see if there is a measurable difference in lock speed with different lubricants. I suspect that there are numerous favorites. I'll probably select a group of 5 or 6 to time. I have some gut predictions but, I hope to supply numbers.
There are many problems with variables in this attempt. However, there is always something to learn, even if it is unexpected. I'd like to try it and see what happens. Feel free to suggest lubes you like, keeping in mind that preventing friction is our only concern in this test.
Regards.
Pletch
Try some 0w30 Amsoil or Mobil 1 syn motor oil.
Been using it on everything that does not need a grease. Seems to work well and has not real downsides that I know of. Pour point in under -50.
Temperature needs to be considered.
Firearms are often used in cold and I have had problems with oil gelling even slightly and producing misfires in brass suppository guns.
Some of the syn gun greases on the market. Tetra is one I use on some suppository guns.
Dan
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I've used Tetra grease for years also. I've been putting using in frizzen and tumbler camming surfaces on locks recently. That would be a good one for the test.
Enjoy, J.D.
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I use bear oil, refined by myself. It works extremely well :D
And to state the obvious, is anything really slicker than owl's grease :) ?
Yes there is. If you have a pimply teenager you already have the best and cheapest oil you can get.......okay, maybe not "cheap:. ;D
Soon enough... If he's anything like I was (and there is a good chance he will be), I can just ask him what to use, because he WILL KNOW EVERYTHING :).
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Dan has a good point about temperature. Not a big deal in Kentucky, usually, but it could be a factor elsewhere. In addition to Dan, Daryl and Taylor ought to know a thing or two about cold weather!
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I've used Tetra grease for years also. I've been putting using in frizzen and tumbler camming surfaces on locks recently. That would be a good one for the test.
Enjoy, J.D.
Right. I am actually working today and did not slow down far enough to add that I too use it on high pressure area of FLs as you do.
Dan
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I have used the light oil that watch repairmen used to use.
I don't know what it was but at one time it was $1500 a
gallon in real currency.
Bob Roller
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I have used the light oil that watch repairmen used to use.
I don't know what it was but at one time it was $1500 a
gallon in real currency.
Bob Roller
Wonder if that is like sewing machine oil? Larry
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Roller's reference to "light oil that watch repairmen use" is likely Moebius/Microgliss D5, which is used on mechanical watches in areas of high friction, such as the winding/setting mechanism and barrel arbors.
It is a modern synthetic, but not available outside watchmaking supply houses. It lists for around $23.00 for 20cc.
I've used it on my 1911 trigger, where it does a great job, but no so good on flint locks. On assembly, the locks work great but the lube does not tolerate high heat well, so frizzen rollers & sear springs get bogged down, percussion locks OK for fly, sear pivot & tumbler.
Not HC, but modern technology applied to historic firearms might be an interesting test.
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I have used the light oil that watch repairmen used to use.
Used to? I hope they still do as some of us are silly enough to keep wearing mechanical watches. miniature machinery being so interesting and non-toxic and all. mine are overdue, but so long as they're gaining (autos) i can't let it bother me.
the natural event at these trials:
in this corner we have whale oil, and over here the big bad bear grease, and both are here to attempt to strip the title of the one, the only, Owwwwwwwwl Poo!
get your bets placed.
did "we" get some owl stuff? bet that's fun to render ;D
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My bet is the synthetics will win out. I know temperature makes a big difference on the natural lubes. I was using bear oil but found it gets pretty stiff in cold weather. I mostly use just a good grade non detergent 10w oil.
A friend of mine a while back got annoyed at the hinges on his wood stove door sqeeking every time he opened it so he put some hi-performance synthetic moly oil on them. The draft from the fire would then suck the door shut before he could get a piece of wood in! Took forever for the oil to finally wear off!
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automatic transmision fluid
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Progress has been slow today. I spent my time solving problems with infrared gates. They have always been troublesome, but today static electricity in my dry basement and the sensitivity adjustments have taken too much time. A potentiometer may need to be replaced. There are a few fixes to try before I resort to that though. During teh afternoon I did get a dry run done using Rem oil on the lock. Numbers ran from .0160 to .0220 seconds. This won't be used as a bench mark because the sensitivity may change the results. So, nothing final here, just some slow progress.
Regards,
Pletch
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I do a full emersion water cleaning on my locks everytime. I dry them with shop air and wipe down, then spray them down with WD-40 or Rem-Oil. Then wipe off all of it that shows itself. I like the water displacing nature of it. Most oils will just float around on top of water.
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...I like the water displacing nature of it. Most oils will just float around on top of water.
that's about the only thing I'll use it for (WDfourzero), as that is it's highest, best purpose by me.
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I finally solved the gate sensitivity today. I replaced the two potentiometers on the interface board. These seem to adjust smoothly and give me much more control of the gate sensitivity. I did a short test and feel I'm ready to begin the testing.
The cleaning method is my next problem. My plan is to do a three stage cleaning. First the lock goes into warm water with a little dish soap added and be scrubbed. Next into rinse water and blown dry. Lastly I'll use acetone or alcohol to do a final rinse and blow dry. That should leave the lock absolutely lube free.
Beginning each set of trials and after applying lube, I'll snap the lock a couple of times before timing the first trial. Hope things go well.
Regards,
Pletch
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Today I tested six lubes against a trial with no lube at all. My gut said that the lubed tests would be pretty close with the no lube slower. This was not the case, however. The no lube trial averaged in the middle of the lubed scores. Below are the lubes in the order they finished with their average for 10 trials:
1. Chambers 2 lube* .0136
2. Colonial Oil* .0145
3. No Lube .0149
4. CLP .0153
5. Boe Shield T9 .0157
6. Rig .0158
7. Ballistall .0172
A few comments need to be made about these scores and lubes. First it was very hard to clean the lube off between trials. I had to wash the lock carefully in alcohol. This last step had to be done more than once in some cases. I timed the no lube first and realized I didn't wash it thoroughly enough, and had to toss the times. If I used those numbers, no lube would have been in first place. Cleaning definitely is the crucial step here.
The infrared gates worked better than before I swapped the parts on the board. I got a few scores out of range, but not many.
*The Chambers product was a 2 part lube. A white grease was used between main spring and tumbler and also on the frizzen spring. A thin oil was used on the rotating parts. The white grease was very hard to clean off after this test.
The "Colonial" oil sample was the only sample that would be historically correct, coming from a marine animal.
The individual times in each set were more widely spread than I was expecting. The averages were in the ball park with earlier timing. The mechanical times for this same lock, published in the JHAT vol IV, was .0151 seconds IIRC.
I have a number of other lubes to try, however my cold wore me out and I stopped with these today. I will probably try to get a few more done, but after today I think I know how it will turn out. (I didn't do my favorite which is Rem Oil.) I'll continue to look at the numbers for any trends.
Regards,
Pletch
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My question would then be, "are the differences in time enough to be significant?" If one of the lubes tested is known to be a good rust preventative but falls into the middle of the pack as far as times go, does that justify switching over to using a lube with the best time?
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I want to continue to mull all this over, but I think the differences are statistically insignificant. The ranges of trials were too wide to be decisive. In fact the narrowest range was for Ballistol, the slowest average. This would be easier to see if you could see the group of scores for each lube. I'll try to see to that.
I do like Jim's lube combination. The lube for sliding surfaces makes sense. Between shooting sessions, I would use a lube based on its rust prevention. I better let it go for now. This needs more thought.
Regards
Pletch
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Pletch; thanks for your efforts. I look forward to the results as I'm sure most others here do too.
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would an ultrasonic cleaning be more effective? results do look a bit "tight".
interested in the order of testing.
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How about spraying the lock with brake parts cleaner? I use it for degreasing parts and it does a good job at that.
We all learn something from these tests. Who would have predicted that no lube would appear towards the middle of the list? Now begins the speculation as to why things are the way they are.
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anybody try the powered graphite in a lock?.........I sprinkled it on the frizzen roller an it seems to work fine. I am a little afraid of using it on the internals of the lock because the powder will cake up an make the tumbler malfunction.....just a thoght.....sonny
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Here are a few photos of the setup and the spreadsheet that includes all the trials:
(https://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/lpletch/Flint%20Lube%20Testing/FlintLubeSS_zpsdd5dc72c.jpg)
The trials are in the order of testing left to right. The "no lube" in the left column is the one in which I felt I did not clean well enough to use. Instead I decided to retest at the end. That trial is on the far right. The times within each trial are in order from top to bottom. This is probably not as significant as it would be if a flint edge was used. The range within each trial was wider than I expected. The exception is in the Ballistol group where the range is significantly smaller than the rest. It was the slowest in the group also.
(https://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/lpletch/Flint%20Lube%20Testing/IMG_7964_zps78c51383.jpg)
This is the overall setup I'm using.
(https://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/lpletch/Flint%20Lube%20Testing/IMG_7965_zpsccce4dfc.jpg)
This pic shows the fixture with the Siler installed. The orange RCA plug in the forground holds the led emiter, while in the background is the detector (black). The infrared beam is positioned right above the frizzen. When the frizzen rises, the beam is broken.
(https://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/lpletch/Flint%20Lube%20Testing/IMG_7970_zps19f814ea.jpg)
This shows the fixture from the back. Now the detector is in the forground. Here you can see the plunger below the sear with a thin brass blade between. When the plunger pushes the brass against the sear, the contact is made that starts time.
(https://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l72/lpletch/Flint%20Lube%20Testing/IMG_7966_zpsf98d72b3.jpg)
This last pic is the interface. The glowing green led lets me know that the infrared beam is not broken.
The mention of ultrasonic cleaning sounds interesting. Using brake parts cleaner sounds good too. Would the parts cleaner leave a coating that could be removed by alcohol? BTW, I figured alcohol would leave no coating. Hope that's right. I should mention that I would use compressed air on the lock until no alcohol was left. I was surprised to see alcohol coming out of the sear and sear spring screws on the front of the lock plate.
Regards,
Pletch
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Yes, aerosol brake cleaner leaves residue. Carb cleaner (remember those) doesn't leave as much. These are observations from the auto technicians, not white-coats, but I'd try them (carb probably) as a pre-cleaner for sure-but with ventilation.
If an aerosol cleaner returns you to a "zero" point, then all is well anyway? more snapping-less scrubbing.
A pal has an ultrasonic, claims it's the shizzle (but i've not used it myself). Hoping you'd have a pal or lab assistant with one.
it's been a great while since my official study of statistics (data manipulation) but i'm not seeing a real difference here-yet.
the times all overlap such that even the faster, disqualified, no-lube trial timed slower for two snaps than the fastest time for the slowest lube tested.
The question this raises from me is, what lube did you fail to clean out of the lock? It also looks very good for the Naphtha treatment (lube by residue), as i've used on "otherguns" triggers forever.
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Ether, starting fluid, is a pretty good degreaser.
Dan
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Ether, starting fluid, is a pretty good degreaser.
heck on a hornet too.
new set of "lubes" to test: the residues of: brake clean, carb clean, starting fluid, and lemon pledge. ;D
it'll help the shop smell better. ;)
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I don't want to change the subject but for a second,We mostly work on guns here but there is a chance as metal workers we will us mig or tig in a repair,be aware that brake cleaner specifically brakkleen product will under use as a metal cleaner and degreaser prior to welding using argon gas I THINK -follow this up with a better search under welding cautions-will produce chlorine gas very little will mess you up and leave you with permanent damage,it can change your life,I read this in a post inwww.xlforums.net. we are dedicated to HD Sportsters another love in my life.Just safety
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Dan,
Hadn't thought about ether. That might be the only cleaning step needed. Think a follow-up step with alcohol would be needed?
it's been a great while since my official study of statistics (data manipulation) but i'm not seeing a real difference here-yet.
the times all overlap such that even the faster, disqualified, no-lube trial timed slower for two snaps than the fastest time for the slowest lube tested.
The question this raises from me is, what lube did you fail to clean out of the lock? It also looks very good for the Naphtha treatment (lube by residue), as i've used on "otherguns" triggers forever.
Wade,
The overlap is one reason these are IMHO statistically insignificant. As far as lube not removed, I think I got that solved after the first cleaning. After that I used plenty of alcohol and used compressed air until no alcohol came out - even from screw threads.
The real surprise was the substantial reduction in range shown by the Ballistol. While it had the slowest average, the lock was far more consistent with this lube. Methodology was the same throughout, so I have no explanation for Ballistol's consistency.
Regards,
Pletch
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I don't want to change the subject .. a metal cleaner and degreaser prior to welding using argon gas ...
I know personally the man who nearly killed himself with brake clean, but the conditions to create that situation are this: brake cleaner solvents (not residue) burned in the presence of Argon. It put him in the hospital. Steve Garn aka Brew Dude. Here are Steve's own words as printed in American Iron Magazine, August 2009 and again at Steve's own site: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm
Here we have no argon nor fire, but yes it is something that EVERY arc welder should know about.
_back to the timing of the lubrication of locks_
i thinks you need to follow up (cleaner) until you get a consistent set of times. IOW, find a "zero". and it's looking like that might not be easy. but then if we can just eliminate three or four "slower" lubes and the re-group those that test faster and re-test them together? This measuring tiny increments of time is messy no?
i asked about the first "dry" run because it is so fast as to get itself disqualified, and then nothing performed that good after such that a partial cleaning of whatever lube you had in there (or another) before might always be the king. looks like a touch of slick residue is all it takes.
fun watching the numbers. This may turn into a lesson of how clean is clean.
thanks Pletch. (i remember dual 5.25 floppies)
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I need to think about what material is the last step in the rinse before re-lubing. Is there a better fluid than alcohol? Other than ether (starter fluid) does anything leave NO residue? I feel that key to a clean lock means a final rinse with nothing left, including a residue of its own. Any ideas better than alcohol or ether?
Regards,
Pletch
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New "safe" brake cleaner is mostly acetone. There are stronger cleaners, but they are not nice to play with.
I'd suspect the the Chamber grease first, and check if it had any moly (or other friction modifiers) in it. The way they work makes it hard to wash away, which is usually a good thing. Just a thought.
As it is, the Ballistol results (being slowest) make my day, as the cult of Ballistol gets under my skin at times :)! I've lost good friends to it.
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..., the Ballistol results (being slowest) make my day, as the cult of Ballistol gets under my skin at times :)! I've lost good friends to it.
that's hilarious.
Pletch, i'm going to go out on a skinny limb and guess that ultrasonic may be the only way to get all residues gone. Imina do some research. I have a cousin in forensics.
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interesting test,Thank you for your efforts, still waiting for Rem. oil & 3 in 1. Two that I regularly use.
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I sent you some PM's Larry. I'm done reading all that technical stuff for now.
Short answers: Labs use ultrasonic a lot, from a lubricity testing machine manual: Acetone and De-ionized water. OR solution of Lye (NaOH) the NZ way.
Also that compressed air, unfiltered, often contains traces of oil*.
But so long as the cleaning gets you back to "zero" for the session, i call it good.
*Probably what happened with the Ballistol, a micro-spec of compressor oil contaminated it, skewing the results and testing the resolve of Ballistolians everywhere. . ;) ;D
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Also that compressed air, unfiltered, often contains traces of oil*.
But so long as the cleaning gets you back to "zero" for the session, i call it good.
*Probably what happened with the Ballistol, a micro-spec of compressor oil contaminated it, skewing the results and testing the resolve of Ballistolians everywhere. . ;) ;D
[/quote] Ballistolians-LOL
Would canned air like "Dust-A-Way" remove the chance of trace oil being put back on to the lock being tested? It advertises that it leaves no residue, I wonder if that's true or if "residue" is considered less than X parts per billion?
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That may be overkill, and afik there's no reason for anything but gases to come out of those cans. Oil and water contamination in compressed air is routinely addressed with in-line filtration by paint shops and such.
Pletch may have this covered already.
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The problem with a trace of oil in the compressed air was a possibility I hadn't considered. As you probably read I moved my stuff from my garage into my basement when I didn't need to use priming powder and flint. My garage air would have been filtered, but my basement compressor lacks a filter. I can rule out the problem by leaving the stuff in the basement but doing the lock cleaning in the garage. It adds a bit of time to the process, but lock-cleaning takes more time than running the tests anyway.
Wade, I read your PMs and will have to make some decisions about how involved I want to get with all this. If I had a real lab behind me, some of those methods would probably be the answer. Since I'm a retired teacher working from my basement, I may have to settle on the best solvents readily available. I used alcohol as you know, but also have acetone and ether (starter fluid). One of my friends may have a couple more. I'll give this more thought over the weekend and pick the brains of a couple local engineer friends.
Wasn't there a solvent called carbon tetrachloride years ago? Don't think you can get it any more. probably a good thing.
Regards,
Pletch
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run an air hose to the basement. tha's how a cracker like me might do it. ;)
what you really need is an apprentice. ;D
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Pletch, Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) may be th ultimate degreaser for thesekinds of tasks, if it is still available. The EPA a few years back determined that if you bathed your pet rat in it 3 times a week t would do him no good, so they have imposed some restrictions. Acetone should be adequate but you could use the 4 dip process, first dip in slightly soapy warm water and the next three in separate acetone baths, letting it more or less dry between dips. This just insures you are going to cleaner acetone dips each pass. Blowing dry would be optional. Thanks for the interesting data.
Heinz
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Pletch; If you want to know if residue is being left by any of those solvents or the air compresser clean a mirror with ammonia and swab on streaks of the test fluid and spray an area of the mirror with the compressor. let them dry and check for whatever. You could too swab areas with the grease and oils you are using and see how effective your solvents are.
dave
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Pletch, have you thought about denatured alcohol. IT is used in the music recording studios to clean the heads of the large multi-track recorders. supposed to leave no residue.
topknot
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As usual you guys help me in thinking. The unfiltered compressed air can be taken care of tomorrow. Wade, I looked over my extra hoses and connections, and I can bring air from an unattached garage into the basement. That should rule out one possible oil residue on the lock.
The rinse is next. Hienz mentioned MEK. I goggled it and read a couple of sources. One mentioned that as a solvent, MEK is very similar to acetone. One difference is that MEK evaporates more slowly. For me that gives the edge to acetone.
I use alcohol and denatured alcohol may make a difference. I used methyl alcohol as in Heet. I don't know if there is a difference in residue left between methyl or denatured. Open to suggestions here.
Heinz also suggested, "Acetone should be adequate but you could use the 4 dip process, first dip in slightly soapy warm water and the next three in separate acetone baths, letting it more or less dry between dips. This just insures you are going to cleaner acetone dips each pass." This methodology could be used with any solvent I chose to use.
In looking over the stats I am beginning to doubt what I know so far. Numbers within a trial vary so widely, I am beginning to look for an unknown variable. The problem is that solvents and methodology used so far have been the same throughout the tests. Is there a variable that widens the data that we haven't anticipated. Just thinking. . .
Regards,
Pletch
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pletch
i was wondering about the varied results within the single test myself. it seems there should be less of a range for one product for the test to be really useful. has there been much difference in the appearance of your fake flint? maybe it needs to be a harder substance? just a thought.
regards
mark
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Today I ran tests on more lubes plus another run of no lube. I have more photos to add but photobucket freezes every time I try to add another photo. The chart below contains both day's work with day 2 at the bottom. I decided to leave in all the no lube groups when I saw that today's was in about the same time category. I also highlighted the fast and slow time in each group. In a couple of cases the fast time and the slow time were next to each other in sequence. The ranking now includes all the trials from both days.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FFlint%2520Lube%2520Testing%2FFlintLubeSS3_zpsbf5f8621.jpg&hash=1d0d885cd5477b806bf152bae138e364bc8776cc)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FFlint%2520Lube%2520Testing%2FIMG_7986_zpsa4709fd0.jpg&hash=776657c02700bd21e522a240b4c4ffdee61d7727)
The additional photos may not be worth the effort of fighting photobucket tonight.
I changed cleaning methodology today. First I'm using filtered conpressed air to rule out the possibility of trace amounts of oil when drying the lock. Also, after using warm soapy water and a tooth brush on the lock, I used a series of 4 baths in acetone. I chose acetone over MEK because it evaporates more quickly. The purpose of the 4 baths was explained in an earlier post so I won't go into that again. But I have confidence that trace amounts of oil are not involved in the testing.
After 2 days of timing, I feel that we will not find a super lube that is head and shoulders above the rest. Since the lock seemed faster with no lube, perhaps the trick is how to apply a very small amount. The containers that the oil comes in may play a part in this.
The wide range of times, especially overlapping as they do, make me conclude that lube quality does not influence the mechanical time of the lock. The question then is why not. My gut says that the very small amount of rotation is prehaps too brief to accurate measure the effect of lube. If we were dealing with a machine that rotated a number of revolutions, maybe we could see the difference. I don't know.
If we do not choose a lube for speed, my choice would be to choose a lube for it's ability to increase the life of the lock. I asked this question to Jim at Friendship. His answer was that he would choose a lube with the longevity of the lock in mind. My gut says we should too.
Regards,
Pletch
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Pletch,Im sure everyone here at ALR appreciates your efforts and hours spent in search of the best lube, I for one certainly do. I also agree with your last statement about a lube that will promote longevity to the lock. your efforts are greatly appreciated!
topknot
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Because this project has extended through so many pages, I tried to consolidate all the testing into one place. The link below include the process, charts, and more photos. I left the text kind of like a diary of one solution after another.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-lube-test.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-lube-test.php)
Regards,
Pletch
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well, here's my guess.
that the coefficient of friction in this case applies to such a small area (compilation of all the bearing surfaces involved) over such a short movement (period of time) that you are indeed getting good numbers, that
it just doesn't matter.
it's just too small a part of the equation. (which is what you said Pletch, i was reading fasst.)
provided cleanliness and lack of viscosity/temp issues.
Such that, choice of lube should be based on corrosion protection and other issues important to you, and also cold-weather function for those in the GWN* (anything north of the Ohio river ;D)
that lock-speed is more about tuning and cleanliness-
and MOSTLY about position of powder in the pan.
*Great White North
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A very interesting topic to be sure.
Though not HC, has anyone tried something like Permatex Ultra Slick Engine Assembly Lube ? That stuff is real slippery.
I still have a small bottle of it in my shop when I rebuilt engines back in my motocross racing days.
Skip
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ok i gotta know now. how fast is .008 of a second ;D
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ok i gotta know now. how fast is .008 of a second ;D
Pretty small amount of time, huh. In flintlock terms - from sear strike to flint touching the frizzen is about .008 seconds. Depends on a number of things like lock make, oil, length of flint, phase of moon, etc. ;D
Regards,
Pletch
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I tried one last experiment this morning. Just for kicks I replaced the Siler I had been using for my "ball bearing" Siler. This is a Deluxe Large Siler that Sam Everly placed a tiny ball bearing race on both sides of the tumbler - one in the lock plate and the other in the bridle. This lock has not been on a gun and is used for experimentation, so far. Below are a couple of photos. These pics may have been on ALR before.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FRepro%2520Locks%2FIMG_0201.jpg&hash=382ae70bf62affc541b641a7189e6ca8e6f5afa3)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FRepro%2520Locks%2FIMG_0203.jpg&hash=487a04bc5a5376eaff8a3e4363920a8c17bcade9)
I installed in the fixture the same way as before and timed the lock with 3 in 1 oil, as it had been successful before. Below are the ten trials:
.0146
.0142
.0144
.0106
.0138
.0139
.0105
.0135
.0126
.0142
------
.0132 average
.0105 fast trial
.0146 slow trial
.0041 range
The average is one of the faster trials, and the range of scores is quite small. Many of the other ranges were almost double this one. Just reporting - I have no explanation.
Regards,
Pletch
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ok i gotta know now. how fast is .008 of a second ;D
.008 is so fast that if you had 100 of them stacked up together, you'd still have 2/10 of a second left over.
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Anachronistic Sinner, I just spray the internals with Moly Disulfide from the local NAPA. If I feel traditional I reach for the graphite.
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Anachronistic Sinner, I just spray the internals with Moly Disulfide from the local NAPA. If I feel traditional I reach for the graphite.
Hey Jack,
I reckon that does sound anachronistic. But, in my defense, I am a diehard experimenter, and have been testing and timing all things relating to flintlocks since the mid 80s. Most are/were reproductions, but I did have the chance to time some originals including a pair owned by Lynton McKenzie.
So, I confess that when I heard that someone was installing tiny ball braking races on one of Jim's Silers, I had to have one. It is the smooooothest lock I own. I own a number of locks like this one that will likely never be on a gun. This isn't my only indulgence. I have a couple more locks - owned because of their experimental value, the incredible quality of the lock, or the incredible skill set of the maker.
So, am I an anachronistic sinner? Probably. But I get to enjoy, test, time, and learn from some pretty cool locks.
regards,
Pletch :)
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If I am interpreting the setup correctly it appears that the time is started when the plunger contacts the sear. Perhaps the small fraction of time that takes place from then to the time that the sear disengages the tumbler could vary enough to skew the total time.
Once this is solved we could move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
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I would think a roller in the mainspring to reduce friction on the tumbler would be a greater gain than bearings on the tumbler shafts.
Dan
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If I am interpreting the setup correctly it appears that the time is started when the plunger contacts the sear. Perhaps the small fraction of time that takes place from then to the time that the sear disengages the tumbler could vary enough to skew the total time.
Once this is solved we could move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
Pete,
You are correct that the touching of the brass to the sear starts time rather than the sear releasing the tumbler. For this experiment I didn't worry about that since all the time measurements were done exactly the same way. Starting time with the beginning of tumbler rotation can be done; it's just more complicated. But since you asked, The elapsed time from sear contact to the beginning of tumbler rotation averages .0019 sec and represents about 5% of total lock time. (This is from timing I did for the JHAT Vol. IV in 1991.) To measure that, I set infrared gate so that when the cock began to move time was stopped. To complete the picture, the stop gate was placed at other intervals to separate other segments of the total time.
Sear time. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0019 - 5%
Cock movement to frizzen. . . ..0075 - 19%
Frizzen to end movement . . . ..0057 - 15%
Powder burn time . . . . . . . . . .0237 - 61%
Total ignition time. . . . . . . . . .0388
Now we're ready for pin dancing. :)
Regards,
Pletch
PS: The lock used for the JHAT article was the same lock I usd for this experiment. Jim did a serious overhall just recently.
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I would think a roller in the mainspring to reduce friction on the tumbler would be a greater gain than bearings on the tumbler shafts.
Dan
Hi Dan,
You could be right. That addressed the issue of sliding friction. I'd also include the frizzen sliding on the frizzen spring. I think this is where a thin grease on the tumbler and frizzen spring that resists being wiped off may be a good thing.
This test did not address how long the lubes stayed in place. It's possible we could see a times slowing had I run 100 trials instead of ten. Whether a lube stays in place is possibily more important that time.
While it is the smoothest, this bearing lock is not the fastest lock I have. The testbed lock averaged .0388 back in the 1991 article. It takes a really good lock to break .0400 sec. An original J. Manton was .0297 and a Staudenmayer .0299 (both owned by Lynton McKenzie) The Manton might have broken .0250 if I had Swiss Null B back in 1991.
Regards,
Pletch
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I have seen a number of mainsprings with a roller on them and I have
one with that feature only the roller is flattened from locking up.
I used to make mainsprings for rolling block rifles with a roller and
had one on my 40-90-420.
I have never seen an antique lock with a bearing race in either the tumbler
hole or the bridle.
Bob Roller
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My 2 cents worth... I think all this worry and fuss we put toward friction, lubricants, rollers, silky smooth feeling locks etc. is largely for not. If I'm not mistaken, the siler with the roller bearings etc. was not all that fast, though it certainly felt pretty smooth. I think that by far the largest factor is torque on the tumbler or in other words mainspring strength. My gut tells me the next thing is cock throw. I think that influencing factors get pretty small after this. What would be really interesting, but perhaps difficult, would be to design a set of experiments in an attempt to isolate and rank features of a lock that contribut to speed or lack there of. Here's something else that has run through my mind. Take a siler lock, get rid of the fly, drop the full cock notch a little to decrease cock throw, and put an extremely powerful mainspring on it and see what the times are. I think you could get down to the original Manton lock times or perhaps better them depending on how powerful the spring is. This is of course just me running my mouth, gut feel, and speculation though.
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My 2 cents worth... I think all this worry and fuss we put toward friction, lubricants, rollers, silky smooth feeling locks etc. is largely for not. If I'm not mistaken, the siler with the roller bearings etc. was not all that fast, though it certainly felt pretty smooth. I think that by far the largest factor is torque on the tumbler or in other words mainspring strength. My gut tells me the next thing is cock throw. I think that influencing factors get pretty small after this. What would be really interesting, but perhaps difficult, would be to design a set of experiments in an attempt to isolate and rank features of a lock that contribut to speed or lack there of. Here's something else that has run through my mind. Take a siler lock, get rid of the fly, drop the full cock notch a little to decrease cock throw, and put an extremely powerful mainspring on it and see what the times are. I think you could get down to the original Manton lock times or perhaps better them depending on how powerful the spring is. This is of course just me running my mouth, gut feel, and speculation though.
Jim,
Your comments made me think back to the original purpose of the experiment. As these discussions develop it's easy for me to forget what I was doing this for.
My original goal was to use mechanical speed to see if one lube or lube class would stand out above the others. My premise was that if a lube was significantly better, it would show up in mechanical speed. I commented after the testing was done that I did not feel that we would find that lube.
One question that remains unanswered is how well the lube stays in place as opposed to being wiped off. I think one would have to run many more trials to see if times gradually slowed. After what I went through here, I don't want to tackle that.
So what did I learn? IMHO there is not likely a lube well above the rest with regard to friction. Is there a lube better than others as far as staying in place. Could be. I don't know. Will a lube make a lock significantly faster. No.
To your point about increasing lock speed, I agree. Reduction of mass and increased spring strength would be important. Geometry, especially relating to the tumbler/main spring contact would have a lot to do with torque applied.
Regarding the bearing Siler, is wasn't super fast. (It wasn't slow either.) It was very consistent however - I guess smooth doesn't hurt. BTW I think Sam told me the springs on the bearing lock are milder. It might be interesting to replace the springs on the bearing Siler with a spring set from one of my Deluxe Silers just to see what would happen.
As always, I appreciate your comments, Jim.
Regards,
Pletch
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Yes, your lube experiment here makes it quite clear to me that you're not turning a dog into a speed demon by changing the oil. not changing much with lube at all. That as Jim says, the speed it Out There, in all that other stuff.
thanks evermore for all the work you've done Pletch. PC mythbusting yo. ;)
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A lot of work but very interesting outcome. If you have more lubes to test I would be interested to see how standard Hoppes number 9 fairs as well as some of the dry graphite lubes. I know in cold weather regular oil can really slow lock times so you might want to freeze your various lubes to -15 F and see what their pour characteristics look like. It will give you a good idea as to the suitability of the lube in cold weather.
Great of you to post the results of all this work. Thanks.