AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Herb on June 01, 2013, 01:55:56 AM
-
Today I tested Goex Old Eynsford 3F and 1 1/2F in my .54 Bridger Hawken, 68 degrees and rest at 50 yards. I used my baseline measure that holds exactly 100 grains of Goex 2F, but it held 106.4 grains of OE 3F (average of 10, spread of 1.5 grains). I used the same patches as with my previous test, .021 linen that crushes to .010. All patches blew. The sun was right overhead and gave chronograph reading problems. The Oehler 35P reads the velocity at 2 feet from start and a second 2 feet. If the readings vary by a certain amount, the reading flashes to say there is a problem. On the sighter target, you see the two readings, where I fired 3 shots. They also show on the tapes, which you can't read. I don't know which one to believe. On my computer, I can hit Control and Plus, and the image enlarges. I did not wipe upon loading, and there was no fouling.
The left target is with 106.4 grains of OE 3F, and I show my measure. With no wiping or cleaning, I fired the second target with 100 grains of OE 3F (weight calibrated measure). All patches blew. I used a wool Over Powder Wad for the last two shots, which are considerably faster. Then I cleaned the bore and shot 100 grains Goex 2F W/M volume of OE 1 1/2F ( 102.6 average of 10, spread of 3.4 grains) at the middle bottom target, after two foulers on the top right target, using a wool OPW, and no wiping or cleaning. All patches good, average of 1815 fps.
The bottom right target was with 100 grains weight-corrected volume measure of OE 1 1/2F and five shots averaged 1794 fps with 46 spread. Thus 12 shots of 1 1/2F OE with no cleaning or wiping. A good clean powder, better than this same charge of Swiss 1 1/2F, which is really dirty with heavy charges. When I cleaned the bore at home with water, the water was clear. There was little fouling in the bore. The 1 1/2F OE is bulky, and if I tapped my measure, the powder would settle about 1/4", but I didn't tap and refill it. It is large-kerneled, and the OE 3F is very fine kerneled.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BridgerOE_zps69c5fd15.jpg)
-
Correct me if I'm wrong. but I see NO corealation between your targets. Some of this and some of that. What is the point of All these shots? NO comparision what so ever!Just a bunch of shots with NO data to tie it together! What is your point?
-
Enlarge the photo and read the notes.
Dan
-
I got my test samples in today. WOW 3f is SUPER fine, i think it looks finer than 4f goex.
-
I stand by my earlier statement, with NO consistency from target to target, the data is meaningless!
-
Good test. Thanks for posting this. I don't have any 3f on hand but I've been shooting 2 and 1.5 in my Sharps rifles. My old flint gun "klatch" comes home after a 25 year abscense in 2 weeks. I'm getting excited to shoot the old bugger again.
-
Herb,
Thanks for taking the time to conduct your tests and describe the results for the rest of us. Chronograph results aside, do you have any opinion as to the accuracy you obtained compared to Goex?
-
Dogshirt, to know how a powder behaves, you have to compare it to a known quantity. For me that is 100 grains of Goex 2F. I use that measure as a constant volume to see how much a different powder weighs, and what that velocity is compared to Goex 2F. Then I make a measure that holds exactly 100 grains of the new powder, Old Eynsford here. The bad chronograph readings confuse this test, and I'll shoot it again. But I now know that I will have to use over powder wads with the OE 3F, unless I find a patching material that holds together. The group sizes are meaningless with blown patches. Black Jack, I can't comment on accuracy yet, but will see what happens when I try these loads in my .58 flintlock Hawken, where I have done most of my comparisons. And Dogshirt, will you please post your test regime and chronograph and accuracy test results with these powders for the rest of us.
-
Dogshirt, maybe this will be better. Today I used 100 grains of Goex3F (weight-corrected measures for all three powders) with the same linen patches, but with wool OverPowderWads. Top left target, 1806 fps 76 spread. Cleaned and used 100 grains of OldE 3F on middle target after two foulers on the far right, then six for record. 1876 mean for all 8, 165 fps spread. 70 fps faster than Goex 3F. All good patches. Then I switched to my .58 flint Hawken for the bottom targets, used .562 balls and same patching with wool OPW and 100 grains of OldE 3F, bottom left. All patches blew, 1608 fps, 129 spread. No wiping or cleaning, went to the middle bottom target with 100 grains of OldE 1 1/2F, but had no more OPW. All good patches. Seven shots, note the velocity is exactly the same as with OldE 3F, 1608 fps, with 45 spread. (the "two foulers in this hole" are on the fouler target, so that is five shots in one fat hole).
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/JuneOldE_zps755dc91a.jpg)
Closeup of the .54 targets
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/54OldE_zpsed64821e.jpg)
Closeup of the .58 targets. The same .562 balls, patches and Goex 3F give 1650 in this rifle and 100 grains of Goex 2F averages 1630 fps.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/58OldE_zps68e9b79b.jpg)
I like the OldE 1 1/2F, but the 3F burns hot on the patches, and seems erratic in velocity. It will take some learning. Dogshirt, I hope this is more meaningful to you.
-
Looks like your .58 Hawken loves the 1 1/2F OldE too Herb. Nice group, well done!
-
for some reason, my 58 sees 3f and pukes LOL. It loves 1 1/2fg and 2fg. Beautiful rifles you have!
-
The Old E 3F may work better in smaller bores than .54 or .58.
-
yeah my 50cal kentucky flinter loves 3f so once i get a front sight, i'll give her a try with the 3f OE
-
Dogshirt, to know how a powder behaves, you have to compare it to a known quantity. For me that is 100 grains of Goex 2F. I use that measure as a constant volume to see how much a different powder weighs, and what that velocity is compared to Goex 2F. Then I make a measure that holds exactly 100 grains of the new powder, Old Eynsford here. The bad chronograph readings confuse this test, and I'll shoot it again. But I now know that I will have to use over powder wads with the OE 3F, unless I find a patching material that holds together. The group sizes are meaningless with blown patches. Black Jack, I can't comment on accuracy yet, but will see what happens when I try these loads in my .58 flintlock Hawken, where I have done most of my comparisons. And Dogshirt, will you please post your test regime and chronograph and accuracy test results with these powders for the rest of us.
Certainly, give me a couple minutes to sift through the ashes of what used to be my home, and as soon as I can locate the lump of aluminum that used to be my chrono, and what's left of the hard drive from what used to be my computer I'll get that data for you.
-
Yes, the second test is more meaningful. Also, I'm intrigued by the fact that the 3f was blowing the patches even with the OPW.
That must be some really hot stuff.
-
Dogshirt, I am really sorry to hear of the loss of your home. I also apologize for my remark about your testing. I don't really know enough about how that OldE 3F behaves but I never had even Swiss or Triple 7 burn patches through an OPW.
-
One thing I did not see was what lube you were using. Perhaps more testing with different lubes will be in order.
I'll have order some OE and see for myself. Looked here and no one has it in.
-
I got my test samples in today. WOW 3f is SUPER fine, i think it looks finer than 4f goex.
That would explain how the claims of increased velocity are achieved.
Dan
-
Goex says they are using the same screensize on Olde E as Swiss uses.
-
My lube is a mix of about 4 parts of rubbing alcohol, 4 of hydrogen peroxide and 2 of Murphy's Oil Soap. Use the same thing for a bore cleaner. In a dark spray bottle.
-
well its not as fine as 4f goex but dang near!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm53%2Fthepowerbeltforum%2FOlde%2520Eynsford%2FDSCN6474.jpg&hash=f038a65ef48216dedf242e4d0398c24f2644b28a)
-
Looks to be sort of like its Swiss counterpart; somewhere between 3F & 4F Goex.
-
Today I had to test fire another .54 Hawken I am just finishing, so used 80 grains of Goex 3F and OldE 3F and OldE 1 1/2F, same .530 balls and .023/.012 linen patching with no overpowder wads. Foulers on lower right target, then top left with Goex 3F. No wiping, cleaned after this group. Next photo is a closeup.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BillOldE_zps5add91d8.jpg)
On Target 1, top left after 3 foulers of Goex 3F on lower right target, I fired five for group. No low fouler velocities, so 8 shots averaged 1611 fps with 102 spread. I tapped the rear sight to the left to center the group. Then shot the top right target with 80 gr OldE 3F after 4 foulers on lower right target. For 9 shots, average of 1695 fps with 174 spread. No shot called out. Note velocity spread, averages 84 fps faster than Goex 3F. With no cleaning, used 80 gr OldE 1 1/2F on lower left target after two foulers on lower right target. Shot six more, average velocity for 8 is 1565 fps with 37 spread. Am taking this rifle and the .58 flintlock and the .54 Bridger to the Prairie du Chien Rendezvous next week, where they will be on Walleser's trading blanket.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/HerbGLT/BillOldEClose_zpsbb22f24d.jpg)
-
Herb, I noticed you did not mention the patches this time. Did they hold up w/o OPW this time?
-
Dogshirt, just noticed on the post that you lost your house. That's awful and I am so sorry. If good thoughts and wishes power anything, then you are in good hands.
-
Yes, the patches were all good, with no OPW.
-
It would be interesting to step UP the .54s and step DOWN the .58s and see where the destruction starts/stops.
20 grns is quite a step, but if the 3f is that much hotter, it may let you shoot a lighter load with much the same accuracy. So MANY things to consider......hmmmm.
-
I've never understood the reasoning behind shooting "foulers". To me your just wasting powder and lead. If your ball patch combo is right you shouldn't have to shoot "foulers" to get a good group.
-
James, sometimes the barrels have been out of the stock and the first shot settles the barrel back into the tang, but the bullet impact is not in the following group, usually being low. Usually the first shot is lower in velocity, and so I like it on another target. Often I use only one shot, but with OldE I was also testing to see if the patches held together. If not, no use going for a record target. I'd have added an OPW before that.
-
The late long rifle maker Frank Bartlett had no use for the idea of "fouler"either
and said it made no sense to him either.
Bob Roller
-
Some barrels need to be fouled in order to place that first shot with the rest of them. Kind of like a centerfire, a lot say their first shot is always a little outside of the main group. Other muzzys want a clean bore in order for it to group, you know to learn your rifle and its ways.
-
Some barrels need to be fouled in order to place that first shot with the rest of them. Kind of like a centerfire, a lot say their first shot is always a little outside of the main group. Other muzzys want a clean bore in order for it to group, you know to learn your rifle and its ways.
I've experienced this when shooting centerfire competition.
dp
-
I see this in smallbore, but since I only clean at the end of the season, I attribute it to a cold barrel. After 3-5 in the sighter bull everything settles where it should be.
-
On my last targets, the first fouler shot with Goex 3F settled the barrel and breech back into the tang. This was the first shot with this new build. It is low of the following shots. Fouler #3 went into the same hole (relatively) as #5 on the record target, and #2 was 1/2" away. With OldE 3F, fouler shots #4, 5, 6, and 7 were a big group that brackets shots 1 and 3 on the record target. But this is just that load, it is being checked for patch working and velocity comparison to Goex 3F. For accuracy, you'd have to try something else. But if there are ACCURATE load combinations, there must also be INACCURATE loads, and this seems to be one of them. With OldE 1 1/2F (and no cleaning after the OldE 3F shots), fouler #1 is high and out of the group, but #2 is centered in the record group. You can also check the foulers on the first targets I shot.
-
Herb, How much does 110gr volume 1 1/2fg Olde Eynsford weigh on the scale?
-
I made a measure that held exactly 110 grains of Goex 2F. Then with careful pouring, I measured and weighed 10 charges of OldE 1 1/2F. They averaged 111.0 grains with a 3 grain spread.
-
thank you Herb, I appreciate it!
I was shocked to see that your weight of 102.6 grains was dead on with my measure. Its very hard to find 2 measures that throw the same loads. I went through 3 of them with goex and pyrodex until i found one that was on.
-
Perhaps this will help muddy the water - or help. When I work up loads for a rifle, I use an adjustable measure, marking on the target the setting of the measure. When I find a load that shoots, I then make a measure that throws THAT amount, weigh the powder charge & record it, so I can make another measure to throw that amount if I need to.
I have an old adjustable measure that throws almost exactly what the markings show, when using 3f GOEX, just lucky, I guess.
I found in testing measures for accuracy, that the 5/16" ID measures made from brass tubing throw much more consistent charges than the 3/8" ID measures throw. As well, the 3/8" ID measures are more consistent than the 71/6" ID measures, etc. The worse, were the horn measures with tapered 'cavities' and fairly large top openings. Yes - they look great - but stink as an accurate measure.
The measure I use mostly for my .32, has a 5/16" ID. It throws weights that vary barely 1/10's gr. each side of the target 35gr., throw to throw. My measure for the .40, is under 3/8" and it does not vary more than 1/2gr. each side of the target measure. The method and care used to pour the powder also has a large effect on the accuracy or consistency of the charges thrown.
Black powder is, of course, not as particular as smokeless powder in these regards and certainly not as dangerous to have large variations, however the close your charges are, load to load, the better will be your consistency, overall.
-
See you at the Prairie Rendezvous.