AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Captchee on August 05, 2013, 05:29:54 PM
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Now this may sound odd but here it goes .
Some background on this
I have a young man who is apprenticing his rifle .
Since I have a fair amount of parts setting around I told him he could use any of those parts he wanted .
But first he needed to come up with a design that he wanted and that we would go from there .
Well last week he shows up with photos of an English sporting rifle built by Ron.
Specifically this one
http://www.recreatinghistory.com/?portfolio=english-sporting-rifle (http://www.recreatinghistory.com/?portfolio=english-sporting-rifle)
Putting aside anyone opinions on the gun , its historical contexts , pro or cons …..
I said ok .
The next thing I know he is standing with a barrel and parts as well as a number from one of the large planks of black walnut I have stored .. Lets say for a novice , he sure knows how to find the most expensive board out there .
So im walking him through drawing this gun up and doing the layout when he comes up with an old left hand early English lock .that he had dug up from a box I guess I had forgotten about .
IE the same one Ron used.
So im explaining that Rons rifle is built for a left hand shooter and that since he is a right hand shooter , he needs to find a right hand lock .
Next came his honest question ; why ?
He then explains he has been shooting a left handed flintlock for some time and doesn’t see why he cant put a left hand lock on a right hand gun .
Im standing there going ahhhhhhhh because !
And yes I almost said because I said so .
But after thinking about this some , I really cant come up with a good reasoning past the flash issues , which he doesn’t have an issue with OR the fact that right handed guns have the lock placed on the right hand side as a mater of practice .
I even went so far as to show him how the lock would be in the way when he sights with both eyes open . But he sights with his left eye closed . that’s the way his father taught him to shoot and frankly he is a real good shot .
So im rather stumped as to a reasonable explanation and am looking for some opinions please
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re-sale value? Less market for lefty guns if he ever wants to trade or sell it.
Bad reason, but its all I can think of.
tca
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Apprentices are not supposed to be stubborn. I think your key a tough one to help and it might be a rough patch of road ahead. I would explain to him that we work within some norms and though creative, don't strive for weird.
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Perhaps a discussion of the value of tradition? First you learn to do it the way it WAS done, and as you come to understand how the "old ways" work, you might come up with a change or tweek that makes sense, and you try it. You're the teacher. Sometimes the answer is "Because that's the way I do it."
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This won't help your case at all, but the Landis Valley Museum had at least two Lancaster rifles on display at their recent exhibit that were set up for a right handed shooter but had locks on the left side. They are both in the book on the exhibit and I'm at work and the book is at home, but I.I.R.C., they were both by different hands.
I don't remember his source, but the author put forth the theory that they may have been built so that the vent and flash were more hidden from the shooters open right eye.
If two were built and survived, how many were made??? Could this have caught on if left hand locks were more available??? Who knows?
Enjoy, J.D.
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The deal killer is the cheekpiece. If he really wants to build that gun, then build it with NO cheekpiece. A left-handed gun with a cheekpiece on the wrong side just wouldn't cut it on an English rifle.
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I agree that the gun would be more appealing sans cheek piece.
I wasn't suggesting that he build it as these Lancasters were, or even inform his "apprentice" that such rifles exist, just putting the information out there.
But, as far as I'm concerned, using black walnut on an "English" rifle would already be a deal breaker, so if he wants to take further artistic license, so be it.
Enjoy, J.D.
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I thought apprentices were supposed to sweep the floor, not ask questions and be happy when you allow them to polish brass or do one thing at a time.
As to the question...target rifles with backwards locks on the right side... like B on this site http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/52/lid/217
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I think the left hand lock and right hand shooter presents a bit of a safety issue when cocking the lock with the right hand. Greater chance of the thumb slipping off the hammer if the rifle is being cocked properly with the butt already on the shoulder or close to it. This is particularly more likely if the shooter's hands are on the smaller side as mine are. I have to be very careful cocking the left hand lock on double guns and find myself cocking the gun without full control of the wrist as a result.
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I would go back to the expensive walnut plank. My apprentice would have to use a plain piece of wood, until he has proven his ability tio turn it into a nice stock. Then, I would consider selling him a fancy piece. It is easier to do really fine work on a plain piece of wood than on one with curvy grain. The intent at this time is to teach him how to do that, not provide him the material to make an expensive rifle.
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Hi Captchee,
Tell the youngster that Ron said don't do that.....The above reasons not to build a right handed gun w/ a left hand lock are all good. Chose an appropriate right hand lock keep it simple and do the best that you can, fancy will come later.
You are the master and this is a learning experience. We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. I built a whole lot of guns before I built the gun he is admiring. I had that nice piece of walnut around for a lot of years waiting for the right time to use it. I have now built over 250 guns and usually built 12-15 new guns a year---I still make mistakes---but not as many as on the first gun... Your young man will learn as much from his mistakes as from his successes. Go slow and understand what you are doing before doing it.
Best wishes on the project
Ron Luckenbilll
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Thanks for the replies folks .
How should I put this ?
When I instruct someone how to build a gun , I don’t really want them to try and copy someone else’s work . Rather I want them to picture in their minds what their rifle would be and then apply learned principles to the application .
So in other words he isn’t recreating unless that’s what they want to do . Instead I want them to create .
As such having a very nice piece of wood , even though wrong for the gun , isn’t a big issue with me . And factually I find it much easier to work on a very nice hard piece of wood then a punky soft piece .
So on one had , his choice of wood , showed to me he was thinking and it gave me a chance to set back and ask why he chose what he did . Explain the complication he would run into . Plus he is going to learn first hand how to read the wood itself .
So in fact his choice of wood is my fault as I instructed him in what to look for and he did just what I instructed him to do .
I also what them to ask questions . I expect it . Also I expect an explanation as to what they are thinking before they do something . In other words I instruct how to do a given step . When that step is done I ask they to think about what the next step should be and why they think it should be next . When its wrong and it most always is , I then can explain whats next , why its next and what happens if its not next in the process .
In return however I expect to be able to give them a reasonable answer to their questions . I have just never had someone ask why they could not use a left hand lock on a right handed gun .
Frankly as I said before , the only thing I could come up with was ; BECOUSE !!!
Which frankly isn’t an answer and since JDK brought up these right hand left locked Lancaster’s I would very much be a fool for saying it wasn’t done . Especially since until now I didn’t know it even was done .
For the life of me I don’t know an answer at to why he shouldn’t do it , without feeling like im going back on my whole belief of instruction .
Its really an odd thing , in 30+ years of doing this , I have never ran into this situation .
The man is very talented and I have no doubt that he will turn out a very attractive piece of work . I just don’t like not having a reasonable answer
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thanks for the reply Ron .
I would agree with you 100%
However my real quandary is I guess the part about understanding what your doing before doing it since frankly I cant come up with any real reason why he cant use a left hand lock other then I think it would be the dumbest thing since a pet rock . Obviously I can say NO . however that doesn’t change the fact that im saying no with out a real solid reason
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We are creating something which has every potential to last far beyond our own lifetime. It is a tool as well as a work of art. I don't know of anyone else who would use that rifle comfortably . He is basically building a one man gun. Why not build a hay wagon with 8 inch wheels, just because you have them on hand ? Why not mount the butt plate upside down, or the reverse the trigger guard orientation ? Maybe he wouldn't mind that either.
Does he want to learn from you, or just build himself a gun ?
I have all the patience in the world for my work, but you obviously have more for people than I do !
That's why I don't have and never have had an " apprentice " ;D
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i dont think i would be the one to ask about building a hay wagon lol .
but since i see folks on taking trips on the Oregon trail in wagons with car tiers ??? lol .
but again in all seriousness bob , again i cant disagree .
but frankly why would this be a one man gun ?
what is exactly the reason we put locks on the right vs the left .
yes i know , because thats how it was done .
the answer im looking for is why was it done that way .
My SXS is a right hand double flintlock . I have no issue with the left hand lock distracting me when its firing . Never hand an issue with spark , flame or anything else . Even cocking and priming isn’t an issue
Im right handed and shot many a left hand flintlock rifle , never had an issue . In fact im almost of the opinion that a lot of left hand shooters , besides having the cheek piece on the wrong side , see the flame from the lock because they look for it .
So while I would agree with each and every one here , I cannot honestly figure out why the lock needs to be on the right side for a right hand shooter other then that’s what was commonly established .
Which is I think the answer I must give him . As frankly I cant find a reason other then ease of cocking that it would need to be there
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I agree w/ Rich. An apprentice doesn't tell the journeyman what to do. I served a 5 year tool and diemaker apprenticeship w/ some crabby diemakers and humilty is the one trait that opens the door to a journeyman's knowledge. This situation could get very interesting in the near future......Good luck.....Fred
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Tell him how you can help him.
If this includes putting a LH lock on a RH gun, then where is your quandary?
If it sticks in your craw to build it this way, then where is your quandary?
It sounds like you need to figure out where YOU are before you can begin to help the apprentice out.
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Some people hear their inner voice with great clarity and live by what they hear. These people become crazy or they become legends. One Stab Nurture this man and see what happens.
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I'd sweep many a builders floor on here!
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I'd sweep many a builders floor on here!
Me too.
This is a learning process for all of us.
Sometimes I teach, but what I'm really doing is learning from my students. In the apprentice/journeyman/ relationship everyone is learning.
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First off . . . my opinion is absolutely worthless but I do have a couple of things to say in regards to the LH firearm and shooting it RH.
As a former shop teacher . . . I ran across such students many times in regards to furniture making . . . in the end, most, not all, discovered "why" after I let them do it their way. We all learn by our mistakes.
In regards to firearms . . . due to eye problems as a result of diabetes, I can no longer shoot RH . . I have to shoot LH as the central vision is not good enough to aim in the right eye. I have no problem shooting LH with a RH lock. But . . . most of us are not "ambi dexterous". I've been right handed my entire life and it just seems "backwards" to me in regards to priming a flintier or capping a sidelock percussion. I end up doing it right handed and then switching the gun in my hands to shoot LH. It works though and I can still shoot. But . . . it "just ain't natural" for me.
There is always a market for LH rifles/fowlers . . . just not as great as RH ones though. I have tried several LH flitters . . . . again, I'm so used to priming right handed, etc. that it bugs me trying to do a LH lock.
You are the "Master" and he is the "Apprentice". You have a "relationship" with the boy that you have to maintain as well and you certainly don't want to quash his creativity . . . or interest. I know the price of parts but perhaps with the enticement of letting him build his first one as a "simpler" design to help him learn and develop his skills . . . then dangle the carrot that if he does well and he gets his building skills down, he can make the LH lock RH rifle? If it is his "first gun" . . . like any other trade . . . you don't start out to learn your skills by attempting a difficult "build". There are plenty of basics to get down first . . . barrel inletting, ramrod hole drilling, inletting, drilling and tapping, etc. as well as learning the proper use of all of the tools involved. Only you know what his capabilities are at this point . . . perhaps he is ready for something a little more difficult such as the gun you describe . . . or perhaps he should be starting out with a more simple design such as a "plainer" mountain rifle?
And I will end this worthless opinion by saying that every so often, I had a student who would surprise me as they progressed in their work . . . some had "natural skills" and their work was excellent. Good luck in your quandary and let us know how it is going. I for one would love to see photos of his project as it progresses. :)
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I like what you said, bedbug.
My rambling thoughts, take them or leave them, on the apprenticeship:
If this is the lad's first gun, or second, it is unlikely that he will be building a masterpiece. He need not worry about making the gun for posterity to enjoy, but to learn what it takes to bring the project to a finish. I would not start him off with your best wood, nor a match grade barrel for a first gun. He's got too much learning to do.
However, there is great value in giving him your opinion about how the gun should be constructed. He needs to know historical precedent and context. What others have done before him.
There is also value in letting him build it his way, too. He need to express himself, explore his ideas, and bring them into three dimensions. He needs to make mistakes, and by golly he will, and he needs to learn how to fix them.
Your job will be one of the tugboat master, trying to steer a loaded barge downriver. A little nudge here and there will keep him from hitting the rocks. But every now and then, he'll run into a snag. Your experience will be there to help him out of his pickle.
As I said before, this may be no masterpiece, but it will be something he can be proud of. Hopefully he will acquire a taste for history and art as you lead him through the different phases of the build. If the bug has bitten him, he will want to build another, and another...
...and end up with a shop full of parts and wood. And Dixon's to go to, and the CLA to attend, etc.
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I guess you could really warp the discussion by bringing up those target flinters that use a left-handed lock on the right side, cock forward, falling back, frizzen aft. Seem to recall something about the direction of fall not throwing things off target. Somebody here knows. Maybe he should go with that method of using a lefty lock on a righty rifle. It even puts the frizzen between the shooter and the flash.
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ok let me be clear here . he isnt telling me what to do or what he will do for that mater .
nor is this my first apprentice.
The simple mater is that he ask me a question that I could not in do faith , give a satisfactory answer to . It was an honest question and IMO deserves an honest and correct answer .
An answer that would seem none of us seem to know as the answers have ranged from basically because to who would buy it .
Not once did I say I was going to let him use the left hand lock . The fact of the mater is that im not .
What really sticks im my craw though is I don’t have a real good reason as to why not past I don’t think it should be .
Frankly though after the information some of you have provided im going to have to do some research into these right hand guns with left hand locks . As I said , I wasn’t a wear of them .
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Capt,
The most obvious reason is because the correct sided lock right or left, directs the vent fire away from the face & eyes instead of across 2/3 of your face. The same with a percussion lock in that cap fragments etc. are far less likely to hit the face and or eyes. Yes we can learn to concentrate on the sights to the extent that we do not notice the flame of ignition. The danger is there none the less and presents a higher percentage of danger. Today most of us wear some type of reading or shooting glasses (or should) when shooting, thus we have a degree of protection that was not readily available when longrifles were the norm. A solid reason better than "because".
Ron
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Having given this some serious thought. I had my smoothbore out yesterday and the actual mechanics of operating the lock are much easier [ for a right handed person ] if the lock is on the right side. I know there are double guns etc with locks on the left, but my right hand can bring the right hand lock to full cock while bringing the gun to the firing position, which is not as easily done with a lock on the left side of the gun.
So...that's my answer :)
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Just say no. In fact I wouldn't let him build that gun, too difficult for a beginner. I think a trade gun or tenn poor boy would be a good place to start so he can learn architecture.
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Capt,
The most obvious reason is because the correct sided lock right or left, directs the vent fire away from the face & eyes instead of across 2/3 of your face. The same with a percussion lock in that cap fragments etc. are far less likely to hit the face and or eyes. Yes we can learn to concentrate on the sights to the extent that we do not notice the flame of ignition. The danger is there none the less and presents a higher percentage of danger. Today most of us wear some type of reading or shooting glasses (or should) when shooting, thus we have a degree of protection that was not readily available when longrifles were the norm. A solid reason better than "because".
Ron
Best reason I've heard so far........
How old is this person to begin with?
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Seems to me a left handed lock would likely be a little more difficult for a right handed person to prime and pick.
Does he intend to use the gun for hunting? I have never carried a lefty while hunting, but would expect it to be somewhat uncomfortable in some carry positions - the cradle position for one.
There is also the safety issue with the increased possibility of the cock or frizzen becoming fouled in clothing. Right handed people tend to carry on the right side.
Laurie
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I'm left handed and due to the lack of options, most of my pistols have rigth handed locks.
Priming them is akward, and I spill alot of priming powder if I'm in a hurry.
I would never build a lefthanded rifle with a rigth handed lock. I hope in time to learn enough to build my own left handed locks and avoid rigth handed all together.
Best regards
Rolf
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And shakes hands with the left hand too???
John
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Here's what I'd do and say. I'm here to show you the "right way" to build a rifle.After we've built a couple, you are free to build whatever you like.the end
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Ah guys , are you all hearing me ?
. He isn’t telling me what he will do.
He isn’t questioning why I said I wouldn’t recommend it . Nor is he going to put the left hand lock on .
While I call him a young man he is in his early 30’s and NOT new to shooting muzzleloaders .
The actual question he posed to me. This is in so many words how it went
I told him that the lock needed to be a right hand lock and that what he was looking at was rifle made for a left hand person . If you use this lock and place the lock on the left side . The flame and pressure that is released from the vent will blow very close to your face . Add into that if you shoot with both eyes open , the frizzen and cock may block your line of sight .
He then told me that he shoots both left and right hand flintlock now and doesn’t have an issue with sight obstruction with the left hand rifles because he shoots with one eye and that he has never noticed the flame being any greater from one then the other . But that he could understand what I was getting at .
Later and this is why I said my question was rather odd .
I myself got to thinking about this. I realized that I shoot a lot of SxS several are flints . Add in to that , through the years , more then a few left hand guns .
Again , thinking about it , I don’t recall having any real issues either.
This got me to thinking if possibly we are perpetuating a myth and really only following what was done because someone else had done it that way , without ever knowing the actual reasoning behind it .
Mike .
I hear what your saying .
Now maybe I was taught alittle differently . When I was young , I worked in a gun shop when I wasn’t out in the fields . In the winter when there wasn’t much farm work , I was in the gun shop .
Mostly clean up, de-priming casings and lubing bullets . I could not afford to build a muzzle loading rifle and frankly even if I could have , the information wasn’t anywhere near what we have today …
The owner of the shop , who back then was also the gunsmith did not do muzzle loading rifles . So eventually with the help of the shop teacher at our school , I converted an old O3 A3 to a muzzleloader . after finishing my father would not let me shoot it tell , I took it to the shop and had old John look it over.
He fired it a couple times and gave me the thumbs up .
A few weeks later I tuned 11 . John ask me if I would like to build a real muzzleloader and dad gave him permission . From then on every day after school I went to the shop . When I was done cleaning up , we worked on my gun .
Ironically I had an original to work from which was an old Liege ½ stock ,20 gage fowler with a back action lock . John cut the profile out from a plank of English walnut , handed it to me and said ; there you go , have at it .
I learned a lot that spring . Most of which was what not to do . To make a long story short , did my gun turn out like the one I was working from . No not even close . Mostly because john would decide that I needed to learn something and suddenly my gun would have an skeleton but plate , Ivory nose cap …. .
It also ended up with double set triggers . But not tell after I had spent a few nights filing out a single trigger and inletting it
So myself , I don’t exspect this rifle to turn out much like the one Ron made . But it will have the general lines .
Thus when he gets done , it will be his gun ,, not a copy of someone else’s , be it mine , yours or Rons .
I will give him my influence , teach him to inlet , form , cast, solder , drill ………..
What I wont do is stifle his imagination unless its involves something that IMO is un safe .
So while I understand your concerns about this gun being difficult , I really don’t expect him to come anywhere near the overall presentation . But in his attempt he will learn everything he needs to know to make the next one even better
Anyway , thank you all for your replies . Its been good to discuss this . Ill be sure to post photos of his finished work when he gets done .
Hope everyone has a great day and be safe
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Yeah, sometimes we trip all over our own feet trying to be helpful. :D
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here is what he has so far Ron
not doing to bad of a job . still has a ways to go but i think its coming along nicly . he has built the triggers , TG buttplate , stock from a plank ....
still has alot of shaping to finish up , checkering and engraving .
maybe he will be done by late spring .
but again not to bad IMO for a first attempt
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy242%2Fcaptchee%2FRifles%2FDSC00092_zpsde0b1d0f.jpg&hash=516edd946f3480a31a5baeec4767ff0eac4bc556)
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My Father all ways said the first rifle made by the apprentice went to the Master Gunsmith. And You don't want a left hand rifle with a Right hand cheek piece! :D
Whats wrong with making a Mirror Image of the gentlemans rifle in question? That would still be a compliment to the other gunsmith and your gun shop too!
To do it like he wants would almost bring a certain amount of shame to your and the other Gunsmith in Question especially if the rifle comes out with a real high dollar piece of wood, but a mirror image would be fine.
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Hi Cap,
It looks like you have a very talented young man on your hands. It is good to see a young person taking that kind of interest and someone with the "patience" to go through the teaching process with them. I assisted a young man (I am 70 so 40 seems young) to build his first gun last spring & summer. I must say that it was a very rewarding experience, especially in that the man had a reasonably good knowledge of tools and was a good visual learner. We shared many a good evenings together and became good friends. Savor the moments that you have with the young guy, the time is special. Remember you can buy most anything in life, but time....
Give my best to your young man and tell him that I liked what I saw
Best of the new year
Ron
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well last weekend we finished the rifle up . i ended up doing the engraving for him but everything else is his work .
sorry for my poor attempt at the photos
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy242%2Fcaptchee%2FRifles%2Fjuan12_zps379de82c.jpg&hash=a0e935126081793acd10e63a9eaa0656135ad1ff)
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Very nice job for both you guys. I'm thinking contemporary american english. Whats he going to build next?
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dont know . i have a full scale mountain howitzer coming in soon . May have him start working on the carriage for that
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That is certainly high on the "Wow" factor. For a first gun it don't get better than that. Your young man is extremely lucky to have someone like you to spend the time and share the talent to produce results like that. My congratulations to the both of you. You have secured a place in the story of that young man's life.
All the best Ron
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Looks like he was blessed with not only talent but a terrific teacher/ mentor.
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It's the way our hands are made....when you pick up a rabbit eared shotgun....do you cock the opposite hammer first??? Noooo.....so it is a feeling and safer way to do a rifle correctly.....
But.....I bet those olden guys used what they had! Poor was poor!
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thank you for the kind words ill be sure to pass them on to him .
when you pick up a rabbit eared shotgun....do you cock the opposite hammer first
LOL ,,actually yes i do even though im right handed . but there is a reason for that . the first SXS i used was my grandfathers and on that SXS the right barrel was full and left modified .
but thats neither here nor there as , from what has been mentioned here , there are originals that had left handed locks on right handed stocks . rare but apparently the did exist