AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: mulelady on August 26, 2013, 08:54:48 PM
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Can any of you tell me if there is a way to tell if an old octagon barrel an antique barrel or a newly made one trying to pass as old. I have a rifle that I was told the barrel was made in the 1860's so how would I tell. Thanks, Joy
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Show it to some experts.
Is it straight? Swamping of old bbls is different than newer.
It might be very difficult if it's a 40 year-old job of aging. Easier if done last week.
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Inspect the bore. See if the rifling is sharp and crisp. Most old barrels will be fairly pitted.
If it's a new barrel made to look old on the outside, and still be a shooter, then the bore will be nice.
The barrel can be pulled from the stock, and inspect how its fastened to the barrel. Look at the plug that goes in the end of the barrel, there are distinct differences between new and old, with wear patterns, wrench marks, soft edges, etc. that often present on old plugs.
In the end, if it's really well faked, it may be impossible to tell. But it's got to be worth the effort to do so, and few people know how to do that very well, and those that do, will charge a lot for their work.
I'm rambling, but you get the gist. It helps to have viewed a lot of original work. If you don't have this experience, take it to someone you trust.
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Best bet is to look in the bore. The rifling will look different.
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The barrel was made in the 1860's?
If it was made in the 1860's, it's probably made of iron or cast steel, and not one of the modern steels.
Why do you think it's not old?
John
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I will guess that a barrel made in the time period stated would have been made on relatively modern machenery and not frorge welded. I would expect the rifling might be more symetrical that older barrels and more difficult to differentiate from truly modern barrels, made in the past 50 years. If this general observation is not right, I am sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me.
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How well does the barrel fit into the stock? Replacement barrels do not usually fit that well into the existing channel without a lot of fitting and work. If there are gaps on the sides, notably at the breech area, it can indicate a breech cut, (shortened) barrel or a replaced barrel. Otherwise, does the barrel condition fit the rest of the gun, or is the barrel too new or too old? If it fits and looks good, probably best to accept it as it and enjoy it.
Dick
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Pix may help.
Tim C.
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If it constantly complains about the behaviour of young rifle barrels it is probably old.
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Pete, that is too funny.
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If it takes 15 minutes to limber up after sitting for 5, it could be old.
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Most of the really old barrels I have seen look nothing like a new barrel, even one that has been typically aged. I have never seen a new barrel truely aged to look like an antique. The antiques generally have the following:
rounded edges
heavy dents and scratches
the breech plug generally doesn't fit all that well and shows scaring form crude wrenches
If you pull the breech plug, the threads are course and the plug doesn't fit nearly as well as a modern machined breech plug
The touch hole for a flintlock is generally large, and rounded on the edges from lots of blow back
You will frequently see draw file marks on the flats
There is usually heavy rust and scale
The bore is generally rusted, pitted, and the rifling worn
Most of the late southern rifles I have seen are coned
Old barrels are almost always tapered or swamped, even if barely noticeable
The swamp on many old barrels is more like a slight taper almost all the way to the muzzle then an extreme muzzle flare
Old barrels are generally thicker/heavier than new barrels where modern builders tend to like lighter barrels, particularly for hunting.
Old barrels are odd lengths whereas new barrels tend to be pretty close to whole inches
Old barrels frequently have evidence of being shortened including moved pin/wedge holes
Of course a contemporary barrel may exhibit some of these characteristics, but it is unlikely unless someone is trying very hard to deceive.
Just my two cents.
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I recently got a percussion rifle, probably made in PA. The barrel is a little rough on the outside, but looks like it was made that way from wrought iron. However, the bore on this gun is in good condition, although the rifling is kind of shallow. The inclusions and even shallow holes are visible on the barrel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7396%2F9128903133_07749e2196_z.jpg&hash=0d65568785b65bc2dc76cda9c2783b3a4b4583eb) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9128903133/)
Picture 007 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9128903133/) by okawbow (http://www.flickr.com/people/20524843@N03/), on Flickr
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5512%2F9131113222_2faa1b4da4_z.jpg&hash=68e2263ee56434f5a75de7590b4d595e60f85882) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9131113222/)
Picture 009 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9131113222/) by okawbow (http://www.flickr.com/people/20524843@N03/), on Flickr
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I believe I've seen this gun before posted somewhere. ???
The trigger guard is the style the Vincents of Ohio used, though I have seen it on guns by less famous makers.
Please post some more pictures, if you don't mind. Thanks, J.D.
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......You will frequently see draw file marks on the flats....
Quite a comprehensive list Mark. Thanks.
As to the above, I have not had the opportunity to examine very many original barrels removed from their mounts, but have heard that the bottom/unexposed parts of the barrels were often left pretty rough. Is this indeed a fact in most cases?
Thanks, J.D.
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Some barrels are rough on the bottom. Some are not.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FOriginal%2520gun%2520photos%2FDSC_2227.jpg&hash=18d0e83569d8a4160c242c2be3ee1dd3408822f6) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_2227.jpg.html)
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Yes that was the most striking thing to me when i started handling more and more original guns, the sheer bulk and wall-thickness of the bbls. Seems a bit like 36 cal in a c weight every time, plenty of room for freshing up.
Congrats on another well-done educational thread.
Now what did y'all do with the OP?
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I recently got a percussion rifle, probably made in PA. The barrel is a little rough on the outside, but looks like it was made that way from wrought iron. However, the bore on this gun is in good condition, although the rifling is kind of shallow. The inclusions and even shallow holes are visible on the barrel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7396%2F9128903133_07749e2196_z.jpg&hash=0d65568785b65bc2dc76cda9c2783b3a4b4583eb) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9128903133/)
Picture 007 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9128903133/) by okawbow (http://www.flickr.com/people/20524843@N03/), on Flickr
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5512%2F9131113222_2faa1b4da4_z.jpg&hash=68e2263ee56434f5a75de7590b4d595e60f85882) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9131113222/)
Picture 009 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/9131113222/) by okawbow (http://www.flickr.com/people/20524843@N03/), on Flickr
It is quite possible that this barrel was reamed and re-rifled.
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OP has not visibly returned. We may have scared them off, being too helpful. ;D
I suspect we're talking to ourselves (again). I do this all day long.
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Now what did y'all do with the OP?
Mulelady? It looks like she hasn't been back since asking the question, so she's probably out taking care of the mules, and has forgotten all about this old, or maybe not so old barrel question!
But there's plenty of good answers if she ever takes a look.
John
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I talk to myself all the time since there is no one else around to talk to. That is the reason I like my little photography jobs every once in a while. They get me out of the house and shop so that I can feel like a normal adult with a job. ;D
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OP has not visibly returned. We may have scared them off, being too helpful. ;D
I suspect we're talking to ourselves (again). I do this all day long.
Sometimes it's the only way to carry on an intelligent conversation! ;)
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never use a new made barrel on a rifle i build. all barrels i use are wrought barrels that are redone. rebored, reamed and rifled, and the flats refiled. i have redone so many over the years that it becomes second nature to read the history of the barrel. barrel mill or charcoal iron barrel from the mountains. the top five flats tell you a little, the top flat, with it's dovetails tells the most. the bottom three flats tell more history. you will find that the flats are a little concave on a barrel mill barrel, with some hammer marks. mountain barrels are filed sort of flat with some hammer marks. bottom dovetails are usually somewhat crude. i love to take an old wrought barrel and read it's history before i destroy this history.
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never use a new made barrel on a rifle i build. all barrels i use are wrought barrels that are redone. rebored, reamed and rifled, and the flats refiled. i have redone so many over the years that it becomes second nature to read the history of the barrel. barrel mill or charcoal iron barrel from the mountains. the top five flats tell you a little, the top flat, with it's dovetails tells the most. the bottom three flats tell more history. you will find that the flats are a little concave on a barrel mill barrel, with some hammer marks. mountain barrels are filed sort of flat with some hammer marks. bottom dovetails are usually somewhat crude. i love to take an old wrought barrel and read it's history before i destroy this history.
That's lovely if you live where these are available. But out here the F&I war and the AR don't exist. Even the Civil War was just a story somewhere to the EAST. To find an original barrel out here would bring the whole West coast to a stand still!
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To find an original barrel out here would bring the whole West coast to a stand still!
That's because I've already bought them all! ,,,,,, Just kidding,,,, sort of..... ;D
John
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On these half stock jobs one way to tell if they were original is by the way the under rib is attached. Most were riveted down as you see this barrel was done. The rifling on this barrel is shallow as well. That said yours looks too clean to be original period rifling. I would agree if the barrel is an old one, it was reamed and re-rifled in modern times. I have seen quite a few of the old barrels use staples to hold the tenons in place as well. Whats the barrel look like out of the stock?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv648%2FDaveB44%2Fmuzzleloader0201.jpg&hash=deee8cb098c6ca1d40ecdeac8c04b196438cc2d5)
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Bore could have been re-rifled.
Most old roundball patterns are deeper grooves. This shallow type rifling could be made for a paper patched bullet or a grease-groove bullet. The twist would tell you something about that.
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I have a friend, for over the past 50 years that I have known him, has every old barrel sent off to be rerifled. Bores don't always tell the truth.
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Bores don't always tell the truth.
That's sometimes true, but, it's generally pretty easy to tell the difference between a hand operated machine early style rifling, and automated machine type rifling.
John