AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: smylee grouch on September 21, 2013, 04:26:05 AM
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Hypothetical question-if all else were equal (gun weight,drop, cal. etc.) will there be more felt recoil with a slightly long or slightly short length of pull?
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I might be wrong, but i don't see any relationship between LOP )within reason( and felt recoil.
huh?
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I'd say 'more' because the rifle needs to rest in a particular position - an optimal position - for best results. If too long, the rifle is awkwardly out past the comfort zone. I can shoot rifles that are too short for me, but ones that are too long - not so well.
There are a lot of architectural things to consider to make a stock fit a person well - LOP may be the least important.
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That's what i mean. LOP is to FIT a person. if you take extremes of the range of "FIT"
yeah, then you'll change the "knocked around" factor.
Like a kid shooting an adult rifle or the other way 'round. Methinks a growd person should shoot rifles that fit. mostly.
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It just depends which LOP is closest to your optimal length. If both are in the comfortble area of being not too long to where it's hard to mount and uncomfortable to hold and too short to where your thumb is busting your nose you won't tell much difference.
LOP is the least important measurement in the sense that it can be chosen somewhere in between that comfort range but all other factors are based upon it when chosen. For example, a nosedrop of 1 1/4" and heel drop of 2 7/8" may put the shooter's eye directly in the sights on a 13 1/2" pull but may have the same shooter looking into the breech with a 14 1/2" pull as his drop at face has moved rearward down the sloping plane of the comb. By adjusting to see thru the sights by hovering over the comb, the shooter may get a whack. The recoil is the same but his fit was not optimal.
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Thanks Taylor, I agree with you about shooting one a little short vs. one a little long. One of the things going through my mind when I posted the question was the style of butt plate. The flat english style vs. the more pronounced hook style. A person might hold or shoulder his gun more in the pocket with a flat style and on the arm with the deeper cresent of say a Hawken style. Knowing this when the rifle is built might influnce your length of pull dimentions. I plan on building an English style rifle that might be a stout kicker with Bear loads so want to reduce felt recoil any way I can. Any thoughts?
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Boy I've got to go the other way. I'd rather shoot one long than short. The thumb in the nose gets old with good loads. If drop and comb are equal. Bob
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Here are some calculations from QuickLOAD.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb471%2Feddillon%2F54cal233_zps674fa984.jpg&hash=a5cd4d2c4f49ab8c9bc5fd8f99158f26c65ab64d) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/eddillon/media/54cal233_zps674fa984.jpg.html)
with velocity of 1666 fps, abullet mass of 230 gr and a gun mass of 9 lbs, here is the various sgments of recoil. Remember that the greater the drop in the stock, the greater the rotational vector of recoil. Your cheekbone bears the brunt.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb471%2Feddillon%2Fa08bccc3-2026-4e72-8889-ee2999c9213d_zps858e9679.jpg&hash=7289ac4f758fc01482467d50091aaa342e99618e) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/eddillon/media/a08bccc3-2026-4e72-8889-ee2999c9213d_zps858e9679.jpg.html)
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My own experience tells me the English had it right with the shotgun butt plates on large bore rifles,
both muzzle and breech loading. Has anyone here ever seen an English rifle used in India or Africa
with a crescent butt plate? The crescent stocked Hawken and others are American traditional rifles
but the Brits still had it right with the shotgun style stocks.
LOP can be measured by the kind of clothing to be worn. A heavy winter coat to me means the 14 and1/8"
LOP I like would be better at 13 and 1/2"for a gun used only in winter conditions.
Bob Roller
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I like the broad Germanic butts...... :D. They don't hurt you one bit.
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ed, I'm confused, how do those calculations translate to felt recoil from differences of stock length. Bob
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I like the broad Germanic butts...... :D. They don't hurt you one bit.
I had a girlfriend like that once. ;D
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I like the broad Germanic butts...... :D. They don't hurt you one bit.
I had a girlfriend like that once. ;D
LMAO !!! :~))
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No one can answer your question about "felt recoil" as there is no way to measure feeling. The calculated values relate to true force of the recoil per the laws of physics. What you feel on one gun may not feel that way at all to the guy next to you. If you want less painful recoil, straighten the butt stock so there is less upward rotation and more of a straight back push. Then increase the bearing area of the butt to spread out the recoil over a larger area. Put a pistol grip on the stock so your right hand gets more directly in the line of the recoil adding both weight and muscle resistance.
Then learn to shoot with the rifle as close to perpendicular to the body as possible - which puts more of your torso behind the butt rather than the shoulder.
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Thanks, Jerry. There are many variables. In the end it is what the shooter feels. Shall we get into BMI and individual sensitivity to pain or whatever? :D
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ed, I'm confused, how do those calculations translate to felt recoil from differences of stock length. Bob
In this case length doesn't matter :D
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You must also pay atention to pitch. A gun with 2 1/2 inches of positive pitch won't hurt the shooter near as much as 3 inch of negative pitch. The Brits figured that out many years ago. That being said you can make near any gun hurt you if you put a rediculous amount if powder down the spout.
Bob
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When I gave my answer to the poster's question, I was trying to think in my mind, "where is this going?" When he answered with his goals, the answer became a lot more obvious. What he's asking about is a rifle design that will allow him to shoot heavy loads - both ball size and powder, and in that case, LOP has little to do with it.
Bob has it right about rifle design, and so does Acer, and Greybeard hit on a very important aspect as well. A rifle with a comb line almost parallel to the bore, a butt plate with lots of width and fairly flat (lack of crescent), and a pitch that allows the rifle to recoil down and away from the face rather than one like a Tulle musket which forces the stock upward against the cheek bone upon firing. I have recorded some stock dimensions, over the years, of rifles that fell into this category, and will post a few if you wish. And these fit ME. Your face shape, length of neck, arm length, meatiness of your shoulder, and even how far apart your eyes are, will bake some differences.
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What is "pitch"?
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Yes Taylor and others, other dimentions will make a difference as to how a gun handles and how much felt recoil there is. I am aware of all that as I have shot custom guns and competed in most of the shotgun sports for 30+ years. My question was mainly about length of pull and if it would affect the felt recoil and it appears as though we have a general consensus that it wont have as much affect as those other dimentions so my question has been ansered and I thank you all. I am lucky to own an H. Holland double 13 Ga. percusion gun but I have never shot it yet. The stock dimentions fit me as though it was made for me and it has a comb line almost parallel to the bore. I am thinking this would make for comfortable shooting if cast,pitch and the two drops were right for the shooter. Any thoughts from anyone ?
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I would also like an explanation of pitch as it applies to guns.
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I have always thought the pitch was the relationship between the buttplate angle and the bore of the gun. In other words you can change the "pitch" by moving the toe in toward the muzzle or out away from the muzzle. This changes the angle formed by the buttplate and the bore.
Changing the pitch will change where the gun shoots, just look at the difference in the pitch of a trap gun and a good, as we say in the South, "burd" gun.
Dennis
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there was a thread on here a while back with a good explanation of pitch with some diagrams.
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I think this is the one.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14589.0
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Several years ago I did a little experiment with one of my competition shot guns by placing 3 flat washers between the but and recoil pad and went and shot 4 rounds of trap to see if it would affect my scores. Yes it did in a profound way. I was an A class shooter but was only getting 15-16s per round. I was going to pattern the gun then but didnt have the time that evening so never did find out which way the pattern moved, up or down. I had placed the washers between the but and recoil pads top screw so some of you might be able to tell me where that diference in pitch moved my pateren.
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Probabley a bit low ????
Bob
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I think your right Bob. After I posted that reply I checked in the book writen by Michael Yardley , Gunfitting- The Quest for Perfection. He seems to say about the same thing. That book is mainly about shotguns and their fit so there would probably be different reasons and reactions to the different stock dimentions when we talk about rifles.
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If your H & H shotgun fits you well, and your cheek is not buried hard against the comb when sighting down the barrels, the stock's profile should make an excellent big bore hunting rifle too. TOW sells several blueprints of English Sporting Rifles, some contemporary, some classicly antique. But you'll be hard pressed to beat the H & H profile.
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Thanks Taylor for that. I was wondering if the shotgun dimentions would be a good fit for rifle. The shotgun is a H. Holland. Harris Holland, the original founder of the firm. He apprenticed his nephew Henry in 1860 and in 1876 made Henry a full partner as he, Harris, had no children of his own. My gun was made in 1861.
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Thanks for the explanation about pitch. It would seem that I always make a gun with a slight positive pitch without knowing that is what it is called. ;D