AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: JPK on September 23, 2013, 03:08:24 AM
-
I rarely find a ball or bullet in game but this one may be of interest here. A 58 calibre round ball over 160 grains of GOEX 2 fg fired on a mule deer buck at about 15 yards. It was a raking shot that cut 6 ribs completely then lodged in the brisket. The rifle is a hawken styled percussion with 35" barrel. I was prepared for longer range shooting but took the easy one.
[imghttp://(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi853.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab91%2FJKilts%2F81a59665-0afd-4615-89fb-ea72e172f08b_zpsb36f7bef.jpg&hash=e7362407084a00f5df3de8c2760f08d0194b9cfa) (http://s853.photobucket.com/user/JKilts/media/81a59665-0afd-4615-89fb-ea72e172f08b_zpsb36f7bef.jpg.html)][/img]
-
160 grains 2F!!! What are you hunting T Rex dinosaur.
A load like that should turn a deer inside out!
That ball should look like a dinner plate.
Fred
-
Ford's right, about forty grains of that charge was wasted all over the ground, unless you're shooting a 60" barrel.
Hungry Horse
-
I am surprised that you didnt get complete pass through with that load at that range. I shoot about 110 gr. 2f swiss in my 58 and do get pass through on shots like yours. All those ribs must have slowed the ball down quite alot.
-
That load might be heavy for cape buffalo at that range. What do mulies eat in your neck of the woods? Steroids with a side of growth hormones?
-
Jeez! 160 grns?? Muzzleloaders can't be "Magniumized" you know , I'm with the other poster, about 40 grains of that was wasted. ::)
-
I can't wait for "wild hair Wade" to jump on this one!!
-
I can't wait for "wild hair Wade" to jump on this one!!
Well, the load has been thoroughly abused so I won't pile on.
I do love recovering a projectile and can add this with regard to that, big bullets up close at mangun velocity can do strange things in the penetration department.
Pardon the pill pusher reference but it's all i got in this aspect: I hit a medium (southern sized) doe at 25 yards with a raking shot from a very popular African Plains caliber ((before 40 cal minimums) a 270grain pill going real fast with a heavy jacket), and never found an exit wound or a bullet. I went so far as to use a metal detector on parts where i thought it could have been lodged. Forever a mystery.
The above roundball was breaking ribs going into the animal I figger and the more a ball distorts, the less likely it is to deflect and penetrate as you would expect.
i reckon. ;)
-
sorry, a bit OT
I KNOW this HAS to have been done here before and I just can't find it.
Has anyone actually chrono'd progressively heavier loads for a given barrel/ball combo to determine at exactly what point the powder fails to burn completely?
-
sorry, a bit OT
I KNOW this HAS to have been done here before and I just can't find it.
Has anyone actually chrono'd progressively heavier loads for a given barrel/ball combo to determine at exactly what point the powder fails to burn completely?
Yes (somebody here i'm sure), and there are calculations as to bore volume and burn time (time inside the bore) that indicate efficiency of loadings, but i didn't find it where i just looked. The velocities of actual prb loads i've seen published don't stop climbing, they just slow their progression drastically-as in 10 fps velocity increases instead of 100fps. At some point the extra powder starts consuming energy being pushed out the muzzle with the prb-where it contributes only to recoil/smoke/flash and nothing to velocity.
Here's a recent "local" discussion: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20038.0
-
I've seen a reference to an Oct 1972 Muzzle Blasts article where Dr Gary White documented some very stout loads in a custom rifle (caliber unspecified): "Averaged 1850 fps with 140 gr, 1940 fps with 168gr, 2040 with 196 gr, 2222 fps with 224 gr, then dropped to 2196 with 252 grains...with a load of 280 gr he was still under the muzzle vel he measured at 224 gr" And, of course there was a "Kids don't try this at home" warning.
Indicates to me the the point where you get no increase at all in velocity, or a decrease in velocity, is probably way up there beyond what a sane person would normally use or need.
-
It doesn't really take that much velocity to penetrate a deer or pancake the ball. The best load is usually the most (+ or -) accurate load. Not talking about target loads but hunting loads. Once velocity increases less than 100fps for each 10 grains of powder you're right around the "best" load.
-
Yup that's a pretty good rule of thumb, when using a chrono. Who knows how the OP developed his load as it appears y'all done run him off altogether.
-
To touch on a few comments, first off the load was worked up on a chronograph, 5 grain increases till the velocity gains (1930 fps sd 14.7 fps) were not of any significance. Accuracy was maintained and the goal was a heavy load for heavier game then deer. I too was surprised to find the ball and knew it might be of interest to some and expected some to have opinions on it.
Wade, I'm not offended by strangers on the internet or run off by a bit of sport at my expense. It may take a while to respond as I don't spend a lot of time at the computer.
-
JPK, My gun(a 58) get 1900+ with 110 gr. swiss 2f. Different gun,powder, breech and some other factors. Interesting load info, thanks for sharing.
-
I just finished reading an article on the 45/70 round(my favorite cartridge]. In the article they did penetration tests starting at high to low velocities and the high velocity load,1900fps, penetrated significantly less than the low velocity loads in the 1200-1500fps range. Could that be what happened here? FRJ
-
First I bet that 160 gr is still showing velocity gain in the 58.
Look at the incredibly large charges used with the slow C&H powder in Lyman's first Blackpowder Handbook.
Second. High speed will reduce penetration of most expanding projectiles unless one of the lead free copper alloy bullets.
You can figure on about 30" with a soft RB unless it encounters significant bone.
The first Antelope I killed was really close, 58 with 120 gr of FFF. Raking shot from the front. Ball staid in but ruined a lot of backstrap.
I shot a running wounded deer with a 44-90 with a 400 gr FP PP bullet, it stuck a limb of a cedar before impacting the deer and was tumbling. Sawed off almost all the ribs on one side and passed through the deer but the hide at the base of the neck popped it back into the wound and it was about 1" back inside the bullet track. A 400 grain 44 bullet will usually shoot through a deer lengthwise.
Dan
-
IN further defense of JPK and his hunting load, here is some data from our own Daryl in a similar length bbl:
Here's my numbers from around 1988, using the GOEX available then. All loads, 2F. .58 hawken 34" bl.
.575gr. round ball 285gr.
:95gr. --spit patch - 1,424fps spread 48fps.
:140gr. -spit patch - 1,683fps 10fps spread -- Bear Grease patch - 1,736fps 36fps spread
:160gr. -spit patch - 1,810fps 8fps spread-----Bear Grease patch - 1,857fps 74fps spread
:185gr. -spit patch - not chronographed------- Bear Grease patch - 1,951fps 42fps spread
:200gr. -spit patch - 1850fps spread not listed note similarity to 160gr. spit and G Brease patch.
I should note here, all shooting was done without wiping. Spit patch always gave better accuracy than any grease or oil. The barrel started shooting well at 140gr. 2F. 95gr. would barely stay on a pie plate at 100yards. With 140gr. I could stay on that pale at 200 yards easily and at 100yrds, shoot into 2" or better.
Slug: 675gr. RNHB - modified Lyman # 57730 mould.
:150gr. 2F - 1,250fps
:160gr. 2F - 1,325fps
Yeah - they kicked with the hawken butt plate. I was young, dumb, ect, etc.
(emphasis added)
You can't kill 'em too dead when killing is part of the program.
/end dogpile ;)
-
FWIW.
At Dixons I was talking to Jason from Rice about his .62 Forsyth barrels. I don't remember the numbers exactly but it seems like he said he was getting over 2000fps with a .62 cal RB but it was with a load that was ridiculous. Something like 200+gr of FFFG
My curiosity in this if for hunting in Europe, where most places will require 2000J (~1495ftlbs) of energy at 100m for big game. So we'd have to be pushing a large ball pretty fast to be legal with a RB.
-
You guys do know that you don't need so much bullet weight, and velocity, if you shoot them in the right end, don't you?
Hungry Horse
-
With my 28" barreled .58 I have been able the recover exactly one ball in a game animal. I use 80gr. Ffg. And .570 dia.Patched R.b. The deer was hit high in the near shoulder, and the ball was found under the hide on the inside of the opposite ham. When the deer was skinned the ball fell to the floor. The ball was nearly perfectly round with only slight deformation of the leading side of the ball. No weight loss was measure able with a powder scale. I have no idea what the velocity of this load combo is. It definitely spoils a deers day though. Typically 25 yards or so and down. BJH
-
Thanks Wade - The post of mine that you copied above came to mind when I read BJH's opening post. I was interested to see where this thread went - quickly down hill.
Those re-printed ballistics were recorded around 1977/78 - and written down in the back pages of my Lyman Black Powder Handbook. Those loads are as recorded by me, using my first chronograph, an OEHLER or maybe my second, a PACT Timer and are from my 34"? .58 Hawken rifle. The speed progression the progression with the powder charge increases is easily observed.
"PARAGRAPH DELETED"
It is still amusing how old wives tales were repeated ad-nausium in the writings of BP beginners desiring a career in writing, but had no actual experience themselves. They wrote about that subject and got paid by the word - so they made up words and slogans - anti-gasgets and all the rest of it.
It seems many do not realize that those old wives tales are just that - tales, with little or no actual fact - but amongst those who do not know or have actual experience themselves, they sound 'good', so they persist in staying alive and probably will for some time. That is most unfortunate.
-
A lot of the loads listed back in the 70's seem to be intended to make BP ballistics seem not so anemic when compared to smokeless ballistics, primarily as an objective to sell guns. Read some of the stuff written by Sam Fadala and you'll see what I mean. After a few years experience most learned to back off the throttle a bit and within fairly close ranges, things worked fine. Since most folks can't shoot open sights much farther than about 100 yards or so, everything works out. In my own case a heavy load to flatten trajectory by, say 3" or so is wasted because I can't see 3" at extended ranges. All in all, the fact of the matter is that JP's load worked for the intended purpose. He didn't say, but I'll bet if his intended purpose is to punch a hole in a piece of paper he just might load a little bit differently.
-
Pete G. has it right. A heavy load isn't needed for close shots on deer but if I can place my ball well at longer range and the game may be larger on another hunt then practice with the load is time well spent. At a target match I do shoot both a smaller calibre and lighter load. On a hunt my respect for the game calls for the fastest kill I can manage. I always go for the heart but rarely get the story book standing broad side pose. Over kill hasn't happened for me as yet, all have been up to and including dead but never over.
Some other recovered ball with notes.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi853.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab91%2FJKilts%2F80c08ba1-d9eb-4141-930b-4d1d7b196f4c_zps10edfff1.jpg&hash=07985083c7f5581faa65c3c045788a3c936d452c) (http://s853.photobucket.com/user/JKilts/media/80c08ba1-d9eb-4141-930b-4d1d7b196f4c_zps10edfff1.jpg.html)
-
Well I never. Love the notes/ball collection-a genuine field-conditions, terminal ballistics scrapbook.
-
Here's an interesting tale. I shot a rather small doe with my 60 cal. Bob Harn rifle. I was using a .590 ball ahead of 90 grains of FF. I shot this deer at about 30 yards, just behind the shoulder and the ball did not go straight thru the deer. I
hit the deer just where I was aiming but the ball came out the bottom of the chest cavity.. I think the ball must hit a curved
rib and it sent it downward, strange but true.........Don
-
Sometimes indeed, balls do strange things as Don noted. This is not restricted to round balls, indeed, elongated bullets are also culprits depending on what they hit.
My first moose with the 14 bore rifle was 95 yards distance. I shot through what looked like a sea of willow bush tips - first shot a pure lead ball - into his left side - sounded like "ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddWHOK". "The d's" emulating the ball hittting willows all the way to the moose. At the WHOK, the moose's butt hit the ground, his back legs buckling, holding his head up and shaking his antlers back and forth - looked sick - very sick, but not down! By the time I had the rifle loaded again, (under 10 seconds - I practised with the ctgs.) this time with a WW ball from a paper ctg., but by then, he'd gained his feet and turned his right side to me. BOOMdddddddWHOK- only hit a 1/2 dozen or so willows with that shot & down he went.
The first shot - 165gr. 2F GOEX and 482gr. pure lead round ball hit not where I'd aimed, but 6" further forward, on the leg- about heart height - the ball smashed that leg into small chunks but then stopped in the leg and did not penetrate into the chest cavity - it was mangled.
The second shot, also with 165gr. 2F GOEX, but with a WW ball of 466gr., hit right behind the right front leg where where aimed. The ball hit a rib going in, broke off a 6" piece and that drove across the lower lung lobes, slicing them like a knife and then stuck through the muscle between 2 ribs on the other side, the end poking against the hide there, the other end in the lung tissue.
The ball went straight across the upper 1/2 of the lungs, making a 3" diameter permanent hole through the lungs, above the heart, smashing into the off side shoulder shattering it into little bits - about 6" above the first ball's flight path(which had entered form the other side). Even though that leg was already shattered by the first ball, he was not only standing on that leg and even took a couple steps when turning around to present his other side for the second shot.
Over the years and after reading some of the 50 to 80gr. charge theories, I've wondered 2 things about charges. 1/. what would that moose hunt's results have been with a 3 dram load instead of the 6 drams used, considering the willows and bone encountered. 2/.- I've wondered if the powder charges used on bit game in the tropics, India and Africa, were due to experience, or perhaps inexperience but a lot of theory on what it takes to kill large & sometimes dangerous game.
I know you can kill a moose with a .45 or .50 round ball and 80gr. 2F - I've seen both happen - but I'm quite sure neither of those would have made much of an impression on the moose above, considering the willows and bone involved.
That leg bone is just over 3" in diameter at the point of impact of the first shot - behind about 4" of muscle & only it went another 6 or 8inches before stopping altogether - yet it made that moose VERY sick - shocked to his core. The second one actually smashed more bone, but on the off-side after going through a 1/2" thick rib & across the lungs, than the first one did on the impact side. The first, of course, hit more wood and was of pure lead - and flattened more.
That this moose needed 2 shots is evident from the postmortem inspection. I would have probably lost that wounded moose if I had to wipe the @!*% bore before loading again. Yeah - sometimes you need 2 shots (well, I sure did). When that first ball hit all those willows - I was surprised - I did not even see them in the sights - only the moose.
-
The single-most striking thing (yes pun) i get from your story Daryl is that you switched ball alloy right in the heat of "battle".
Is this because that gun is not fussy like a smaller bore might be, or just a thing of circumstances? Or normal GWN field testing with a very cooperative moose-swapping sides so you couldn't confuse the terminal ballistics upon autopsy. ;D
I left a 490 ball in a whitetail a few years back, i was no good at reloading then-and I saw him go down like a sack of bricks. But he got up and left and I lost his track (I used to bow hunt, and can follow a drip for miles). Anyhoo, I saw him 2 years later but couldn't get a shot. If i see him again...maybe i can find out what that first ball did/did not do. He's pretty big now and has a hella limp. (and a non-typical/typical rack-no confusing him with the other ridge-runners).
-
I have been using balls cast from wheel weights for bear and moose now for a couple of years. I have 2 pieces of a pure lead .715 ball from my 10 bore that hit my deer last year, and then angled up into the spine . He dropped like a stone, but I always wondered what would happen if I happened to hit a large bone when bear or moose hunting with a lead ball.
The WW just keeps going, and that is what I want. One thing about moose; if you take out a leg, they usually stick around....at least that's been my experience.
-
All of my paper ctgs. had WW balls, whereas the first one loaded was pure. The paper ctgs. shot the same groups sizes and hit exactly the same poi as the pure lead and cloth patches. Whether this happens in other 'bores' I do not know. I suspect it's part and parcel of the large bores being easier to work with, recoil aside, of course. The larger the ball, the less it is effected by small changes.
For instance, 165gr. hits the same poi at 200yards with patched pure .684" lead ball, as it does with a .677" (15 bore)WW ball, which is considerably lighter and .007" smaller in diameter. I use the same patch material for both balls - 12 ounce denim. I measure it at .025" with the mic and .029/.030" with the calipers, squeezed as hard as I can on the jaws, forefinger and thumb.
In the large bores a slightly smaller WW ball ensures deep penetration. The reason I use a slightly smaller diameter for the hard ball is that it is easier loading with a thick patch, than is a larger WW ball with a thinner patch (that has a tendency to tear from the hard lead).
-
A simple thought: An increase of a charge by 10gr will have a lower percentage each time it is added to a charge. In other words a 10gr increase over a 10gr charge would be a 100% increase in powder charge but a 10gr increase over a 100gr charge would be only a 10% increase over a 100gr charge. Thus the more you increase the charge in any given rifle the smaller the velocity increase would be simply because the percentage of fuel increase is less each time it is upped. FRJ
-
To touch on a few comments, first off the load was worked up on a chronograph, 5 grain increases till the velocity gains (1930 fps sd 14.7 fps) were not of any significance. Accuracy was maintained and the goal was a heavy load for heavier game then deer. I too was surprised to find the ball and knew it might be of interest to some and expected some to have opinions on it.
Wade, I'm not offended by strangers on the internet or run off by a bit of sport at my expense. It may take a while to respond as I don't spend a lot of time at the computer.
I am surprised it took that much powder to get the velocity. I would bet that at about 120 grains the velocity gains started to really fall off.
Anything over 1700-1750 will give flat enough trajectory for hunting in 50-58 calibers. Trying to increase a RBs killing power by velocity is sometimes counter productive. If the striking velocity is high and a large bone is struck, such as the upper leg bone of an elk, penetration may be inadequate if the range is short. Modern firearms run into the same thing I have seen 300 Weatherby 180 factory bullets fail to penetrate more than 4-5" in an elk due to too much velocity and striking not that substantial a bone. So solid copper bullets are popular for such cartridges. At 200 yards or more I am sure the 300 would have passed through but at 40? Its not a load I would want in AK in an Alder patch with a bear in it.
I have a 16 bore rifle and for shooting something like a large bear I would use harder lead like W-W alloy. So while high velocity may increase killing power on game at the smaller end of the scale, antelope and deer, it may reduce killing power on larger game in some situations with a pure lead ball.
I would point out that John Taylor killed a number of African Elephant with a 167 gr in a 10 bore and Forsythe used 137 gr in a 14 bore (69 caliber) for Indian Elephant and other large game. I have no idea what Taylor's velocity was but the trajectory tables Forsythe developed give about 1600 fps when run through a ballistics program I had years ago.
Dan