AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: dlbarr on March 30, 2014, 04:56:57 AM
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affixing the piece of horn for nose cap to forearm and apparently have the wrong mixture of resin to hardener. directions said 1:1 ratio which I took to mean volumn.
after approx 24 hrs, the mixture is still a bit "rubbery". What have I done wrong, how do I go about cleaning up and removing the bad mixture from the stock?
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Could be the temp, try putting a
heat lamp light bulb near it for the next 12hrs.
Sometime the stuff doesn't mix real well and act's a bit funny if it's 10yrs old,,
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Did you use the gel or regular? They have different mixing ratios.
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Did you use the gel or regular? They have different mixing ratios.
first time I've ever used this product... came in two round plastic jars
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If it said to mix 50/50 on the label it is the gel. try heating it gently and it should kick over and harden.
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I work with a lot of epoxy.
Rubbery (also called "green") is not a bad thing, just means it's not cured yet.
Cure time depends on a few factors - temperature, humidity are two of the biggest factors.
As suggested heat can help speed up cure time.
So give it some time before you throw in the towel. Even if you got the ratio a little off unless it was "really off" it will cure, it will just take longer.
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I have taken an aluminum pail and inverted it over the horn cap on the forearm, replaced the weight on top to apply pressure and fixed a drop cord light inside the pail for heat. the temp im y garage has been in the 50s-60 all day but will be abit cooler tonight. hopefully this will be the fix I need.
Thanks for all your input
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Dave,
Rubbery "Glass" or "Glass Bedding" (the generic terms for any number of different epoxy bedding compounds) is usually caused by these things:
1. The mixing ratio was not strictly adhered to per the directions. I have forgotten how many times I've seen folks try to "eyeball" the quantities and screw up the mixing ratio and the glass did not harden. Most "Glass" sold will allow a TINY bit of quantity error, but not very much. Rubbery glass can come from both too much and too little hardener used.
I use heavy steel kitchen measuring spoons to get my volumes and I "cut across" the top of the spoon with the pallet or putty knife so the compound is level with the top of the spoon. That ensures the amount or resin or hardener in the spoon is as uniform as possible. Then I CLEAN the spoon and knife with acetone and a paper towel before I use the spoon for the other component. Oh, If mixing a ration of 5:1 and you use a tablespoon - don't mess up like I did a couple of times. I thought there were four teaspoons of volume in a tablespoon when there are only THREE teaspoons.
Oh, it is better to mix up too much glass than not enough. If you don't have enough, DON'T try to mix another batch and fill up the void as that can often screw up either or both of the two batches. Better to let the first amount harden properly and then roughen the surface and fill up the void with a new batch of glass.
2. Mix the glass THOROUGHLY. I use a putty knife and fold it up and spread it a number of times to ensure it is well and even mixed between the resin and hardener. If the instructions say to mix it for about five minutes, then do it for about that time. If the mixture is not mixed thoroughly, you will get soft spots in the glass or you may get air bubbles in it.
3. The temperature in your shop normally has to be 70 degrees or more for the Glass to mix and set up properly. Too cold of a shop will cause the glass to either not set up or take days to set up. If the shop is warm or hot in the summer, it will set up FASTER.
4. Be careful if you apply external heat. I have seen folks take a folding arm lamp with a 60 Watt bulb and get the edge of the lamp right close to the glass. Within the first hour or so, that CAN cause the glass to bubble up and screw up the mixture and you will get both air bubbles and soft Glass. If you wait a couple hours and then put the bulb close to the glass, it will normally be OK. Most of the time, I don't use a bulb and just let it sit for the time recommended in the directions in the shop that is 70 degrees or warmer.
5. There is both a "hardening" time limit and a longer "CURING" time limit on most Glassing Compounds. I have learned to wait for the full curing time before separating say a barrel from a stock. If not, you may crush the glass before it cures and then the fit will not be as tight as possible.
6. Make sure to use the proper Mold Release on the parts, if you want to separate them after glassing them, just don't get the mold release between the area you want the glass to stick and the glass itself.
If you have more questions, please ask.
Gus
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OK, Gus, thanks for that. So let's say I need to separate the nose cap from the stock....how do I go about doing that and cleaning up the mess so I can put it back together correctly?
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I might add that after applying my heating method described above, the glass has not hardened any more than before. Making me think I should have used an epoxy or wood glue not because the glass is inferior, but because of my ability to use it effectively...
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OK, Gus, thanks for that. So let's say I need to separate the nose cap from the stock....how do I go about doing that and cleaning up the mess so I can put it back together correctly?
This stuff works very well. However, it has to be very thoroughly, mixed. I heat it with a hair drier when mixing, just enough so they it is less viscous and easier to stir.
This always works best and will also reduce curing time.
It is remotely possible you got a bad batch but I see this as unlikely in the extreme.
Mix a trial batch warming the gel as you mix. Its 50-50 volume since they give a volume cup. But unless you are REALLY off its not likely to be a factor, there is some leaway.
If its rubbery sharp tools should cut it. It might even peal off.
Dan
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If you heat the nose cap gently with a heat gun you should be able to remove the cap. The heat gun does not take long to do the job, be carefull not to overheat. Once you have seperated the nose cap from the stock scrape both the stock and the nose cap to get as much of the unset epoxy off as possible. I would let it set for a while to see if what is left will harden up. If not then I would scrape until the parts do not feel tacky anymore.
Next I would thow away the acraglass and buy some Micro Bed from Brownell's. It is not called Micro Bed anymore since Brownell's bought the formula but they will know what you are asking for if you ask for the Micro Bed. I think they call it Acu Bed or something like that.
This comes in two tubes and it is very easy to mix. You can mix very small quantities which is a plus to me. This stuff is so much easier to use than acraglass it is not even funny. You use paste wax as a release agent so no more blue film to try to remove. You mix it 1 to 1, squeeze out a line of white and squeeze out the same amount of brown in a line next to the white and you have the perfect ratio. It is a milk choc. color when mixed. Sets hard in 12 hours and gives as good if not better a fit than acraglass.
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The box of Acraglas that I have right now is over a year old, maybe 2 years old. A few months ago I used it and I noticed the resin (the white stuff) was grainy looking. I went ahead and mixed it up but it would not harden, stayed "rubbery". I called Brownell's and they advised to heat the tub of resin with the top off in a microwave for 5 seconds and check it. If still grainy, heat another 5 seconds. That did the trick. Nice smooth resin. I scraped off the rubbery stuff, and made a fresh mix, which hardened properly.
-Ron
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I've got some acraglas gel that is at least 15 years old. It still works fine. A couple of years ago it started to get grainy and I did the microwave thing. I used it last week when it was 50 in the shop. Had to let it set for 3 days but it did harden up. Used it yesterday to do a horn nosecap but brought it in the house overnite and it was hard this morning.
The good thing about the rubbery state is that you can take a sharp chisel or razor blade and pare off the excess squeeze-out and save yourself a bit of work when it does harden.
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Yeah, this stuff is brand new from Brownell's. I guess it did look somewhat grainy as you say....will try the microwave approach & mix up another batch.
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Dave,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you as I had to work yesterday, got home late, etc., etc..
Bama’s advice about gently heating the nosecap with a heat gun to remove it is spot on. If you don’t have a heat gun, then I perhaps you have a folding arm lamp with a 60 watt bulb and can put it right next to the nosecap for long enough to heat up the nosecap? It will take longer than a heat gun, but should still work. Oh, you can also use your Lady’s Hair Blow Dryer set on high, but I will not be responsible if you get caught sneaking it out to or back from your shop. GRIN!!
I VERY much agree with Bama not to use the blue colored Mold Release Brownell’s provides with their kits. It can be cleaned off with Q Tips dipped in Acetone, most of the moisture squeezed out and then used to carefully rub it off. However, even if you don’t think you might never need to remove the part later on, like you might not never remove a nosecap, it really is best to use a Mold Release and that CAN lead to other problems depending on what you use for a Mold Release.
I am hesitant to suggest things that can be used as a substitute for Mold Release BECAUSE I know of times other things failed and sometimes disastrously. I have read where people used Pam Cooking Spray, Shoe Wax (NOT shoe polish), Paraffin Wax from modern candles, Bee’s Wax and Auto Car Wax and they got away with it one or only a few times. We ran out of Mold Release one year at the RTE Shop at Quantico and normally just waited until more came in. However, one time two NM M14’s had to be built to take the NRA Convention within a short time. So I was told to use Car Wax. It worked great on one stock, but on the other, it failed miserably and caused the stock to crack when it did not release the receiver.
Paraffin Wax IS a key element of THE absolute finest Mold Release for all epoxy compounds and was originally called “Ram Mold Release 225” but after Valspar bought out Eli Lilly, it is now known as “Valspar 225” and I have included a link that shows it in the aerosol can below. That stuff is clear and as thin as water and allows the very tightest fit of the bedding compound while ALWAYS releasing the metal. (I buy it in liquid and a gallon at a time, but NO muzzleloader builder will ever need to go to that much expense or volume.) Oh, last time I looked up the cost, it was around $ 30.00 a can.
http://www.associatedindustriesinc.com/store/release-agents/valspar-225-aerosol/
Brownell’s sells ACRA-RELEASE Aerosol and it ALSO is a sure bet Mold Release that will always release the metal from the bedding compound, however, it is thicker than Valspar 225 and you can’t get as tight of a bedding job with it.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/mold-releases/acra-release--prod1045.aspx
Now, I realize a muzzleloading gun builder is normally NOT going to want to pay this much for Mold Release. However, if you bed say a barrel or had to do extensive repairs to a broken stock, I most strongly recommend you bite the bullet and pay the cost to ensure you don’t mess up the stock you or another builder spent so much time on. This is why I mentioned these two Mold Releases.
For a single nosecap every now and then, I might try car wax as a Mold Release, as Bama recommended – if and only if I did not have one of the two Mold Releases mentioned above.
The Micro Bed that Bama mentioned is one of the oldest Bedding Compounds on the market. Marine National Match Armorers used it when they were the first ones to glass bed NM M1 Garands in 1957. However, we had stopped using it when I went through my 15 month Apprenticeship in 1973-4 because it did not stand up as well to the pounding of recoil as later Bedding Compounds. The more modern formula is better than the old stuff, but it is still not nearly as good as other bedding materials in that regard. However, muzzleloading guns don’t take the pounding from the numbers of rounds fired that NM modern guns do. So the only problem with Micro Bed IS the fact it comes out so in such a dark brown color that will stick out like a sore thumb on many muzzleloading gun stocks. As far as I know, even the most modern stuff comes in that color from the tubes and you can’t lighten the color to get it to match muzzleloading gun stocks.
Brownell’s Accraglas has brown dye in the kit, where you add the tiniest amount (like a tiny dab on the end of a jeweler’s screwdriver) to the bedding material to color it much closer to the stocks of Muzzleloading guns. I have found it best to get the color a little lighter than the wood and then stain it to match.
The problem you can run into with Accraglas depends on which one you buy. Regular Accraglas is much thinner than Accraglas Gel. It is a little better to use as a glue to fill in cracks as it can be pressed easier into a crack. However if one wants to fill a void, the Gel compound is better as it won’t easily flow away from where you want it. I quit using regular Accraglas over 20 years ago and only use Accraglas Gel since that time, for that reason. There are tougher glass bedding compounds for modern guns I usually choose, but Accraglas Gel is a very good choice for muzzleloading stocks.
One other suggestion I would offer is if your shop is separate from your living quarters and not normally heated when you are not out there in cold weather, is bring the work into your house and maybe put it in a closet to allow it to properly harden. I did that for years, myself.
My apology if it seems I sort of rambled on, but I thought I might include information others may also find of use if they ever need to use “Glass Bedding” material for other purposes on muzzleloading stocks – besides what you are doing.
Gus
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By grainy, we mean it gets a thin crust on top which kinda looks like beetle parts that went thru a toad's digestive system. It doesn't become grainy unless you stir it into the rest.
Quit trying to make this difficult. The gel is idiotproof. I use popsicle sticks to dig out blobs from each container that are approximately the same size and mix them on a plastic coffee can lid.
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With sincere respect for others who feel otherwise and with nothing personal against others, I have to disagree that Accraglas Gel is idiot proof.
Back in the mid 80’s, I taught one of the NRA Gunsmithing Seminars on National Match Conditioning of the M1A at the Rochester Institute of Technology in New York. It just so happened that Reid Coffeld was one of my students in that class. Folks may know him for the gunsmithing articles he writes for Shotgun News, but before that, he was in charge of Brownells’ Catalogue for many years. He brought both Accraglas and Accraglas Gel kits for each student along with some other things for each student free of charge from Brownells.
After the part of the training where I demonstrated mixing and using glass bedding and how much emphasis I put on measuring and thoroughly mixing the compound, Reid spoke to me about how important that was. He informed me the number one reason folks had problems with Accraglas and contacted Brownells about, was when they did not measure it and the glass did not get as hard as it should have.
What I recommend is if one only needs a very small amount of Accraglas, then use a ¼ Teaspoon measuring spoon to measure it out for both the resin and hardener. Even if that is too much for what one needs, one NEVER has to be concerned about the compound not setting up correctly. The small amount of waste left over is so little, that even someone as cheap as I am won’t worry about it. Grin.
Gus
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Quit trying to make this difficult. The gel is idiotproof. I use popsicle sticks to dig out blobs from each container that are approximately the same size and mix them on a plastic coffee can lid.
Well, that's close to what I did actually. As for a measuring device and/or color that is supposed to come in the kit, I got neither of those. Apparently I bought only the two ingredients as opposed to an accra-glass kit of some sort.
Gus, I appreciate the tutorial. Thanks for your input and I'm sure there are future questions that will be answered by your post as well.
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Dave,
The little dye packages are something Brownells has only been putting in the kits fairly recently. I've been buying the small "tubs" of dye for years, but that is only because I use so much Accraglas to "recondition" worn/loose Garand stocks and even so, one tub lasts me for five years or more as it only takes a tiny amount to dye Accraglas. Fortunately, Brownells now sells smaller quantities of the dye.
Here is the information on little dye packages that will last anyone using Accraglas on muzzleloaders for many years:
083-001-005WB
Brown Dye, 5 packets $5.99
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/acraglas-dyes/acraglas-dye-prod41614.aspx
I would not recommend ordering the Black Color Dye, though, unless you are repairing something like hard black plastic caps or buttplates as found on some older shotguns and rifles. I have tried using the black to darken or get a different shade of color with the brown dye and it never worked out well for me. Grin. Actually it always looked horrible.
Glad to type this information out as I get so much great advice and tips here, I appreciate being able to "give back" on things I know that may be of some use to the folks here.
Gus
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Thanks Gus, Don't know how recently Brownell's started doing this but I ordered & received this in the past 30 days.
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Dave,
I think they only put one each small packet of black and brown dye when you order the complete kit and not when you just order the resin and hardener alone. I haven't ordered Accraglas by the kit in over 20 years as I order the larger 8 oz tubs of resin and hardener because I use so much. So if you ordered just the resin and hardener in a smaller size, that may be why they didn't send you the little dye packs. However, if you ordered a kit and did not receive the little dye packs, I would suggest calling them and asking for them. Their customer service is great.
Brownells U.S. Phone Numbers
Ordering: 800-741-0015
Technical Support: 800-741-0015
Gus
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Dave,
Sorry you have a problem with the Accra Glass. I have some of gel that I have been using for several years. more than 10. I give both gel and hardener an 8 second shot in the microwave before mixing. So far it still works great. I have found that the 1:1 ratio is very forgiving. Maybe I have been lucky. Only had the rubbery problem once on a nosecap. Removed it, pulled the pins out, scraped and re-drilled the pin holes. Was a little more cautious on the second attempt. Worked fine. Incentive was that I didn't want to subject myself to the aroma produced while bandsawing another chunk of horn. Let me know if you need another chunk of horn to complete your build.
Ed
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Ed, thank you for your very kind consideration. I actually have enough horn left over for another cap but I believe I can still make the current one work. Thank you again.
I really appreciate all the input from everyone here and just attribute this little boo-boo to my gun building learning curve.
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Ed,
Your experience mirrors mine. It is very forgiving. I even used mine before I found out about the microwaving deal. It had some little flecks in it after mixing but it didn't affect anything.
Speaking of horn, that water buffalo horn I got from you it some of the toughest stuff I've ever worked with. Seems like it takes forever to get it worked down. I stayed away from the belt sander because of the dust and had to use a very coarse rasp on the outside. All fine rasps or files do is polish it a bit. To cut the barrel channel I used a gouge and mallet.
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Hey Gus
Thanks for that fine info on Acra Glass and Micro Bed. Always helps to get info from someone that has a lot of experiance with a product that is used in our part of the gun building trade.
I used acra glass for many years and it is a good product but once I found Micro Bed I have never went back. To me it is 10 times easier to use, no mixing measurer's to mess with and no dye to blend in. From what I remember, because it has been awhile, the color of Micro Bed is not that much different than the Acra Glass with the dye mixed in, so I am not sure I understand the statement "sticks out like a sore thumb", but hey to each his own.
Now I will agree that I use Micro Bed very little in my building, mainly for repairing a crack in the stock or for mending busted up stocks in my restoration work and the occasional complete barrel bed for the target shooters that I build for. I probably go through a couple of pair of tubes a year.
I sounds like you use Acra Glass a lot and in a much larger volume so maybe it is more ecconomical for you to use Acra Glass. So I hope I did not offend you when I said to throw the Acra Glass away. If I did it was not intended. I was just trying to let the folks on the board that there is an alternitive to Acra Glass.
Oh, I almost forgot the release agent that I use is "Johnsons Paste Wax", the type used to wax wood floors, I have never had it fail.
Thanks again
Jim
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Hey Jim,
Heck no I didn’t take offense when you suggested throwing the Accraglas away, so don’t let that trouble you at all. You are definitely right that it is much easier to squeeze out equal amounts of Micro Bed to get the volume/ratio correct on mixing vs Accraglas. I just wanted to make the point that Micro Bed is too dark for some lighter to medium colored stocks, so that it sticks out.
As to coloring Accraglas with the dye. Yes, if one squeezes out most of the dye even from one of the tiny packets mentioned above, it will come out as dark as Micro Bed. The secret to getting a lighter color is to use a tiny amount like on the end of a tooth pick or the way I do it on the end of a small Jeweler’s Screw Driver. Just the tiniest smidgeon will color even a small batch to look like maple that is not very dark. Mix that thoroughly into the compound and then add tiny amounts like that at a time to get it as dark as you want. If one wants it as dark as Micro Bed, then it is easy to put that much dye in, but one can get much lighter shades with Accraglas when using tiny amounts of dye.
Most of the time I dye Accraglas to match the wood is for filling in holes in walnut stocks, though one time I used it on my old 1970’s vintage Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine after I shattered the wrist area. Not sure if they used English/European Walnut on that stock or something else, but it was very light in color. Even though I had most of the pieces that came off, there were a few small voids. Since British Brown Besses were not normally stained darker, I wanted to keep the real light color and the only darkening then came from the oil used on it. Using the tiniest amount of Accraglas dye allowed me to match the wood color so well, even I had a hard time seeing where the voids were filled before I added the oil finish.
As you know, walnut can range from a very light almost off white color to a fairly dark milk chocolate color. If you add tiny amounts a time and “sneak up” on the color you want, it is possible to get a very close match to the color of the stock throughout most of the color range.
BTW, it was Johnson’s Paste Wax in the Yellow Can I wound up having to use as Mold Release when we ran out of Ram 225 and I had to do two NM M14’s FAST to take to the NRA Convention years ago. At the last minute, our Colonel decided he wanted to NM M14’s that we could take apart and show people how we glass bedded them and how we cleaned them up, since he got so many requests for that and even from top NRA folks. He also ordered the bedding and clean up be perfect, so it would not embarrass us. That Paste Wax released one action perfectly, but failed miserably on the second and cracked the stock badly. On both rifles, I was EXTREMELY careful to ensure the metal surfaces had been properly coated with it, yet on the second stock it was a disaster. Fortunately as I was routing out another stock to replace it, we got new Ram Mold Release 225 in that afternoon and I was able to use that and finish the second rifle for the NRA Convention that year. SURE was happy in came in on time for me to use the real Mold Release on the second rifle. Oh, BOY, was I happy!! Grin.
Gus
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Micro Bed has been off the market for about 10 yrs. I talked to Brownell's about 5 yrs. ago about it. Was told that the guy that made it died and his daughters wanted a ridiculous price for it so they would not buy it.
If you know where I can get some, please let me know.
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Ed,
Your experience mirrors mine. It is very forgiving. I even used mine before I found out about the microwaving deal. It had some little flecks in it after mixing but it didn't affect anything.
Speaking of horn, that water buffalo horn I got from you it some of the toughest stuff I've ever worked with. Seems like it takes forever to get it worked down. I stayed away from the belt sander because of the dust and had to use a very coarse rasp on the outside. All fine rasps or files do is polish it a bit. To cut the barrel channel I used a gouge and mallet.
My trusty back saw proved to be very handy. Once you get the horn down to where you want it, it takes a beautiful polish and lustre. 4/0000 steel wool and rotten stone with mineral oil. really does it. I use it in a lot of builds. Modern and antique.