AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: RonC on May 11, 2014, 06:06:20 PM
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The cock on my main shooting flintlock would lock at half-cock but wouldn't hold at full cock.
I removed the lock, cleaned it up and re-installed. It now locks at full cock.
When I put the lock back into its recess and try it out, all is fine.
When I put the screw in from the other side to hold the lock in place and set the trigger and pulled the trigger, the cock did not release.
I removed the long screw holding the lock and the cock still did not release upon pulling the trigger.
I removed the lock from the rifle and could get the cock to release just fine.
I repeated putting in the lock and long screw to hold it and had the same problem each time, the cock doesn't release. Remove the lock from the rifle, no problem.
The lock has the name Pete Allan on the inside. I looked the name up on the net and my lock looks like the "Becky" locks by Davis.
Thanks from this newbie for any tips on resolving this problem.
Ron
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It sounds like the lock internals are pressing against swollen or excess wood when the lock bolt is tightened. Usually a simple scraping of wood in the lock inlet does wonders. Put soot or lipstick on the lock internals, reinstall the lock and then remove it. If anything is jamming up you'll see color transfered to the wood. you can carefully remove a little wood until no more color is found in the lock mortise.
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Thank you, Hanshi!
Should I use my red or pink lipstick? ;D
Sorry, couldn't resist. :D
Ron
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I should mention a few things.
1. This flintlock was working just fine about 2 weeks ago.
2. The lock works perfectly when off the rifle.
3. I had checked the locking screw to see if it protrudes, blocking the cock from falling. Negatory. As I mentioned, it worked before.
4. I tried the lipstick, but it doesn't match my complexion :D . It was difficult to see where wood might be rubbing metal.
5. When the long locking screw was tightened down, the whole lock shifts.
6. I put the lock and locking screw in place, pulled the set trigger and then the trigger. The cock moved forward a bit, stopped, and the entire lock moved slightly as though something on the lock was pushing on the wood. The bottom of the lock (toward the trigger) wanted to move away from the rifle.
7. Then, just to add to the fun, I wanted to try pulling the trigger to release the cock again, but the cock would lock at the half-cock position but not the full cock position.
8. At that point I said "Gosh darn, gee whiz, holy whilickers!" >:(
Here is the lock. The shiny stuff is corrosion protect I put on.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F836%2Fv9s4.jpg&hash=92718e7754d07325c20ff42aa5402e5ea594d457)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F835%2F41oc.jpg&hash=e822d92210bfa98ea79bdc1c08eb859ccd3eb254)
Ron
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Ron,
I think Hanshi is correct about the lock internals, or possibly the set trigger mechanism, pressing against wood. This is a common problem, especially in wet or humid conditions. Sometimes in older rifles that have had the lock removed and re-installed many times, the repeated tightening of the lock bolts compresses the wood some and causes the lock to sit a little deeper in the mortise. This can cause the problem as well.
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Hi Ron, I agree with Hanshi also. Look at the lock mortise. If there are any shiny spots on the wood, this is an indication that the lock is rubbing on the wood.
Centershot
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If the lock works when out of the gun, then there is interference ...but I am also curious re the lock shifting in the mortice.
If the mortice has room for the plate to move, then the trigger might not be working effectively re the sear contact. You mention only having one lock bolt, which should be enough if you have a good fit .
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I looked for evidence of interference like shiny wood or light wood surrounded by darker, carbon stained wood. Nothing was obvious.
I put it all back together. It is all working if I follow this sequence: pull the set trigger; move the cock to half cock and full cock; pull the trigger.
I now have done this multiple times. Each time I have to pull the set trigger first to be able to go to half- and full-cock.
My other flintlocks work by moving to half- then full cock. Pull the set trigger then the trigger.
I wonder if I should pull the set trigger before installing the lock?
Ron
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It almost sounds like your triggers need adjustment. The rear trigger might be too high to let the sear engage the notches in the tumbler. Just something to check out.
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I wonder if I should pull the set trigger before installing the lock?
I set the set trigger before reinstalling a lock because on at least one of my guns I can sometimes end up with the lock's sear bar under the trigger's striker if I don't. Won't do any harm to set before reinstalling the lock, but I don't see how that would result in the problems you're having as described in the original post, nor should it alter the gun's characteristics with respect to cocking sequence from what it was two weeks ago.
Have you checked the lock bolt threads and the threads of the bolt hole in the lock plate and verified the threads haven't become overly worn or stripped out? Any recent work on the trigger assembly, like removal for cleaning and replacement of the trigger in the stock?
Good luck with a definitive solution.
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Sounds like something has swollen or shrunken. Either way for someone who has no knowledge of how this stuff works internally it can be very frustrating, and very difficult to diagnose long distant.
My advice is to find a knowledgeable friend or a gunsmith that works on longrifles for some assistance. I don't think you'll hurt anything but your sanity may suffer.
If I was to guess, I think it may be a combination of the set triggers being a little deep and pressing on the sear bar too hard. And with the hammer not falling all the way could be something rubbing inside.
When you put carbon or Lipstick on the lock parts, put it on anything that moves. Then reinstall the lock and screw it in snug NOT Tight. Tight will cause problems by itself. Then move the hammer and the triggers. Disassemble the whole thing and examine it Very carefully, with magnification if needed. There has to be a sign where something is rubbing.
OR like I said perhaps you just tightened it too much, you said it was working before. Remember only snug. Even a half turn too tight is too much.
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One other thing to watch for. When you replace the lock, Cock your set trigger. It is possible to get the sear bar under the rear trigger bar and that will mess thing up as well.
Good luck with your lock, hope some of this helps.
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Is the lock bolt protruding through the lock plate into the hammer path?
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Sounds like your trigger is bearing against the sear when at rest. Your sear notch on the tumbler can become polished with use and eventually it is smooth enough that the resistance is overcome by the pressure from the trigger. The quick solution is to shim the trigger plate until you get clearance. A more permanent solution (assuming the trigger plate is not inlet too deeply to begin with) is to file just a little off of the end of the trigger spring until the trigger no longer touches the sear when both are at rest.
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First its likely wood bound from moisture given the pitting on parts of the lock.
Next the lock is still gunked up if the photo is of the "clean" lock. Its needs to he washed out with Brake Cleaner or gasoline and then relubed. Remove the bridle and sear to do this.
Wood moves with the weather. It will move if water is trapped in the lock mortise. Lots of makers do not put finish in the lock mortise and barrel channel.
So you either need to used a light coat of inletting black on the lock internals, reinstall cock a few times and check that at MOVING parts are not contacting the wood.
Do the same with the triggers.
This should fix it.
If not you need a gunsmith who understands 18th-19th c firearms. Which I recommend for SAFETY REASONS.
Dan
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If there is something positive from this process, it is the valuable information and experience I have gained for all your suggestions. The mechanical workings of the flintlock, once a magical black box for me, is becoming clearer and clearer.
The lock bolt does not go all the way through to interfere with the cock.
I pulled the set trigger before installing the lock as per Micah's kind suggestion. Wallah! Voila! Viola! (I am not good at French ;D) The cock holds at both half- and full- cock! But, the set trigger no longer works. The main trigger does work.
My next step: take the advice to talk to more experienced, local muzzleloaders.
Thank you,
Ron
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I think you have a problem that has many possibilities;
first to me - it sounds like the lock bolts are not perpendicular to the lock plate and the lock plate mortise edge is not supporting the lock plate. As you screw in the lock bolts the lock plate is shifting which in turn is moving the sear in relation to the trigger blades. Every time you take the lock out to examine it and then re-install it you may be applying different torque to the lock bolts which are then shifting the lock plate and changing the sear/trigger blade position. You may also have a worn or missing fly as you say it "hangs up" in the half cock notch. Good idea to take it to some knowledgeable muzzle loading gunsmith. Hope it works out for you.
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The problem I experienced was similar to yours but the trigger was the culprit in my rifle. The rifle always worked then one day it didn't. I removed the trigger, did some very light wood removal and that fixed it. As was stated previously, removing the lock, inconsistent lock bolt tightening and changing humidity can play the devil with locks and triggers.
Oh, as for color of lipstick I far prefer black; it goes well with my little black dress. ;D
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Ron
Sounds like the set trigger is inlet too deep. Remove the triggers and try the lock. If it stays on the half cock notch and the firing notch, press the trigger sear with a screw driver and release the cock. If this works, put a little shim under the trigger plate and replace the triggers. If that works instsall a perminent shim and your problem is solved. If I had the rifle here I know that I could get it working in ten minutes.
David
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Well, the location of the trigger blade is what seems to be the problem.
I can see the trigger blade is up too high in the location where the sear inserts. I put a piece of cardboard under the front of the set trigger (there is a little notch there) so that the blade would not go up as far as it had and all was fine.
Here is a novice question so that I won't break anything: I removed the trigger guard by punching out the pins, no problem. There is a plate that is inlet into the stock that is held on one side by a screw and on the other by the long bolt that goes from the barrel tang, all the way through to the plate. No problem there.
But, the inlet plate that the triggers go through doesn't seem to want to come out.
Rather than force it, I want to check if there is something else holding the plate to the stock. Do I have to remove the barrel to get down to any other screws that hold that plate?
Thanks,
Ron
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Sometimes the wood is undercut to accept a portion of the plate. I have done this to keep the rear of the plate fixed to the stock, with the overlapping trigger guard keeping the front of the plate firmly in place.
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The plate that you are talking about is the set trigger plate. The barrel tang screw goes through the stock and fastens to it. You mentioned a screw in the back of this plate, that is usually a wood screw and helps tighten the rear of the plate and is common too. Remove both screws then just put a screwdriver blade in the front of the plate and lever it out slowly so that nothing cracks. It should be mounted tightly.
If the trigger is in too deeply you have the option of shimming the front, the back, or both depending on where it is deep. I use brass sheet, but you can use any metal preferably or even firm cardboard. Cardboard may compress over time.
If when you put it together again you find the front trigger rattling, you shimmed it too much. The triggers should touch but not move the sear bar.
Just remember that when you put it all back not to overtighten the screws or your problems will return. Just snug (touching so you can't turn them by hand, finger tight is too loose) I hope you can follow that, and try to do it the same every time. A good guide is align the screw slots with the barrel.
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Not to add to your misery, but be aware that changing tightness of the tang screw can affect both accuracy and point of impact. All these things are interconnected, which is one of the things that makes longrifles so fascinating to fool with.
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Not to add to your misery, but be aware that changing tightness of the tang screw can affect both accuracy and point of impact. All these things are interconnected, which is one of the things that makes longrifles so fascinating to fool with.
"Fascinating." Yes, that is a very good word for it. ;D
I want to thank you all so much for the insight and information. The truth is that there is no misery in it for me. It makes me feel younger in a learning mode as I proceed. I can almost say I am having fun. It reminds me of time as a youth taking apart various items to see how they worked. The household items that were the victims of my inquisitiveness made me a victim a "parental displeasure." ;D But, I survived and those experiences directed me into the technological fields. So, I am off to tinker on the rifle again.
Ron
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I think I've seen most, if not all, of the symptoms you've described on my guns, just not all in the same gun at the same time. And, since your gun was working fine about 2 weeks ago, it's likely that there is just one part that's become worn or one thing that has changed.
It brings to mind the old joke, here rephrased, "Why do the BP shooters have hunched shoulders and sloped foreheads?
Because when you ask them a what's causing a problem, they shrug and say 'I don't know', and when they finally figure it out, they slap their foreheads and say "Oh, $#@*, of course!". :D
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I try to get the rear trigger of a double set/double trigger so that it has a little clearence, not touching the sear when the trigger is set. That trigger has to kick the sear out of engaugement not push it out like a single trigger. Maybe I'm wrong but that is what I try for.
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I took advice from here and at another muzzleloader site and worked on the rifle.
I first went around the net looking for the proper terminology for both the lock and trigger systems.
I removed the trigger bar (plate) and put metal spacers between the trigger plate and wood, trying to lower the firing trigger bar so that it didn't put pressure on the sear bar. The spacer was a piece of thin steel that came from the old-style folder that kids used to use for holding assignments - the little metal prongs that go through the 3 hole paper. I tried 1, 2 and 3 layers of those flat, metal pieces. That didn't work.
When I tighten the bolt that holds the lock in the recess, the lock tends to roll toward the bolt that inserts near the top of the lock. I put the metal spacers against the wood in the lock recess to keep the lock from rolling in that direction. That didn't work.
The only procedure that works time after time is pulling the set trigger, cocking the cock, and firing.
I think I need to find a flintlock smith locally who can take care of the problem once and for all.
Thanks,
Ron
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Ron, if I read you right, when you tighten the rear lockscrew the lock rolls towards the barrel. If that is the way it moves it might be causing the sear to dip down to the trigger lever when it rolls. Is that a posibility?
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That is what I noticed, smylee grouch.
Now, part of the BIG story.
It may be that this is a type of trigger mechanism that REQUIRES pulling the set trigger in order to cock the lock!
From another forum: this may be a Double Set, Single Lever Target Trigger (can be seen on the R.E. Davis site). If this is indeed the case, and the mechanism does look like this Double Set, Single Lever Target Trigger, then I feel pretty silly. At least I can write off the activities as a great learning experience. I will still feel a bit silly, though.
Ron
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Why did it work before?
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Does a blade raise up when you pull the front trigger? If so, it is a double set/double blade. A double set/single blade has no blade on the front. You have to set the triggers or put a shim/set screw under the mainspring to make enough slack to cock the hammer. From a safety standpoint it is advisable to do this. It isn't safe to have the triggers set when moving the tumbler. Setting the triggers should be the last action before raising the rifle to address the target.
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Why did it work before?
When I shot it before, it was my first time shooting a muzzleloader and I hadn't a clue as to how they worked. Now that I think about it, I may have had to set the trigger before cocking. It obviously didn't make an impression on me at the time since I had no idea what to expect aside from what I read on the net. So, it did work before. How did it work: with setting the trigger before cocking or just cocking and hitting the set trigger? I just don't recall. What I do remember is taking the flintlock out to the range a second time, attempting to cock it, and finding that I couldn't. I could cock it after pulling the set trigger but didn't know whether that is how it was supposed to be. That led me to this thread.
Thanks,
Ron
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Even if it is a double trigger,single set, something else is smooched in there. I have one of these trigger set ups. Took a little getting used to, but mine cocks easy enough and holds without the trikker being set. Setting the trikker is the last thing I do before firing. Is yours holding the halfcock notch?
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Even if it is a double trigger,single set, something else is smooched in there. I have one of these trigger set ups. Took a little getting used to, but mine cocks easy enough and holds without the trikker being set. Setting the trikker is the last thing I do before firing. Is yours holding the halfcock notch?
It only holds the half cock notch when the set trigger has been pulled first.
Ron
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OK, I can't seem to let this issue go.
Some say it is unsafe to have to set the trigger before cocking the cock. But, if that is the way this lock and trigger unit are designed, so be it.
Here is the inside of the mortise and trigger bar unset:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.com%2Fa%2Fimg834%2F8770%2Fcrk8.jpg&hash=c1548c567b5b391028c3e9424a339872b8a537e1)
And set:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.com%2Fa%2Fimg834%2F8655%2Fdks7.jpg&hash=c2f540f0633e823e145fa8903c8ee9115277ab00)
At the set condition, the trigger bar is under a notch at the top of the main trigger.
And, finally, the lock mechanism:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.com%2Fa%2Fimg839%2F6577%2Fs4th.jpg&hash=828f7e674ab3a912a2f022f617b8b35dd35cfc62)
which is not nearly as dirty as it looks in the photo.
So, is this a lock for which you have to set the trigger before cocking?
Thanks,
Ron
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Go to Pete Allen's web sight and ask him how it should work and then how your's works!!
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"So, is this a lock for which you have to set the trigger before cocking?" Its not the lock, its the trigger that determines if it must be set before the lock can be cocked.
Dennis
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It has finely become clearer for me. I had some responses on another site (some of the people are on this forum as well) that also point out that it has nothing to do with the lock, but all to do with the trigger.
From One Fine Gentleman:
"The trigger that is in the rifle now mandates that the trigger is set (dropping that bar) so that it doesn't contact the sear arm of the lock,, that contact prevents the lock from going to full cock.
It's a target trigger only, it's meant to be used at a target range where a rifle isn't made to be ready to shoot until at the firing line or on the bench with the rifle pointed down range.
It would be un-safe to use that trigger set up for hunting."
And another:
"I agree, the single lever double set trigger is dangerous to use for hunting.
Because the trigger must first be set in order to cock the gun, any sharp impact to the guns stock could release the hammer/cock.
Even saying,
"Well! I'll just put the lock at half cock after I've set the rear trigger." isn't a safe thing to do.
When the rear set trigger is released it has a LOT of energy and it can bust the nose off of the sear or break the half cock notch catch off of the tumbler.
In either case, the hammer/cock will fall and can cause the gun to fire.
The only ways to safely carry the gun in the field is to leave the gun uncocked or, if it must be cocked, to have the nipple uncapped or the pan unprimed with the frizzen open.
That makes keeping an eye on the game while you put a percussion cap on the nipple or prime the pan and lower the frizzen a difficult thing to do.
Of course, the target shooters aren't bothered by this so they don't have the same problems."
So, I am going trigger searching! I want to find a trigger system that I have to do the least modification for.
Thank you,
Ron
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That trigger will work if you put a screw under the spring to raise the spring and let the blade down a little. Then you can pull it to any position and set it before you shoot. Even a double set/ double blade shouldn't be carried set. Just because someone says "I do it all the time and have never had a problem." doesn't make it safe. All it takes is a 4-40 or 6-32 tap and drill plus a set screw long enough to reach the mainspring. A new trigger might still be too high. Might as well fix this one. If it doesn't work, you can go to plan B and get a new trigger and adjust it. Plus you can learn how things work and get a new skill. If you are around these rifles very long, cutting threads is a necessary skill.
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If I read this correctly, the purpose of the exercise is to be able to put the lock on 1/2 cock, without having to first set the trigger. A double action set trigger will allow this. My target rifle and .40 cal small game rifle have set triggers , but I prefer a good single trigger on my big game hunting rifles.
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So, I am going trigger searching!
What you could do to help us is pull the trigger from the stock and give us a picture of the whole thing.
If we can identify the trigger, there may be a front trigger available with a blade that'll fit.
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe there's a shop or builder near you that can help?
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So, I am going trigger searching!
What you could do to help us is pull the trigger from the stock and give us a picture of the whole thing.
If we can identify the trigger, there may be a front trigger available with a blade that'll fit.
What part of the country do you live in? Maybe there's a shop or builder near you that can help?
Good idea!
I have taken that rifle apart so many times now, I was reluctant to do it again. But, now that I have replaced the pins that hold the trigger guard with thicker pins, it no longer is a worry that the pins will become loose from repeated extraction and insertion.
Ron
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The simplest method of determining if your triggers are capable of firing off the front trigger, is to look at them, and observe if the front trigger has a blade that lifts the sear or not.
Single phase double set triggers were very common back in the day. They were not just used in target guns. Many hunting rifles had them also. Many old guns had no half cock position on the tumbler as well. Of course a lot of old timers accidentally shot themselves too.
Hungry Horse
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The round front trigger gives the trigger away as a simple single blade trigger. They were being sold when I started in 1977. It fits right in with the Pete Allan lock . It has a simple flat plate and wide bladed rear trigger. It is doubtful that a front bladed trigger could be added without also modifying the rear one. More work than it is worth. 20min. work will fix the original.
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When the hammer is pulled to full cock, the sear bar must move down slightly, before it drops into the full cock notch on the tumbler. It moves over the highest point on the tumbler, then drops into the notch. What happens, is the wood continues to compress over time, and the entire trigger group moves up closer to the sear bar, until a point where it no longer works. On a modern rifle, the trigger group is mechanically tied to the action so nothing changes, but on muzzle loader the wood does compress. The first thing to do is place a small shim between to trigger plate and the wood, if this is the problem, you will know. Then you can either leave the shim, or glass the area for a better solution.
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After all the thoughts and energy put forward by you fine folks, I have come to the conclusion that this is a target system in which the set trigger must be pulled to set the cock to half or full cock. I could purchase a different trigger system, but decided to leave it as is.
The whole exercise has been quite an education for me. Thank you all!
Ron
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I have a rifle with the same trigger. I like it. It took some time and research to figure out what it was all about. I guess I was under the impression that you had been shooting the gun, and then after cleaning it, something changed. But glad you figured it out.
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I think that idea that things had changed came about because of my own confusion. I "mis-remembered" the actual circumstances and confused this particular rifle with others I had handled during the same period. Then again, it could be age doing its thing. ;D
Ron