AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: fatcat on June 26, 2014, 09:41:35 PM
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Howdy from central texas, this is my first post on this forum, still learning how to post pics (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F35i838i.jpg&hash=706431f6e4ce13f37b2258997023bd5355076f86) i will post more pics if this works
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Ok that worked, wasn't the pic i wanted but its the same rifle.
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om/35i838i.jpg[/IMG]c8t41.jpg[/IMG im sure im doing this wrong please be patient, thanks!
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No luck ,wont let me grab the entire code. Will try again later.
This is a halfstock,heavy english , some say similar to Creamer.
John P Sites signed this on the lock,barrel,and initialed the breech plug in gold with two bands . Sorry I am unable to get more pics there has got to be an easier way.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2Fw9k0g3.jpg&hash=8bb6225cec9d25badfacd259103f67410c47db6c) maybe
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Would love to see more photos of the gun. If you cannot get them posted send me a PM as email address is in the members profile.
Also interested in how you came about owing the gun as well and as much specific detail as you can provide. Whisker's book shows J.P. Senior (1784 - 1835), then J.P. Junior of Arrow Rock (1821 - 1904). By what method do you conclude from "Arrow Rock"? Cap lock? Photo. Sites is a maker I have deep interest in but actually know little about and have not seen any signed works or even works attributed to him.
You are a lucky dude, fatcat!
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.coms%2F21c8t41.jpg&hash=b58c60830b3ea34512ed64bb9cdad429228594eb)
Anybody ever handle one of these? I have only located two examples other than
What they have in Arrowrock, not real sure what they have there either, comments please
just trying to learn, thanks
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Thanks brooktrout , i will try to email you
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This is a very interesting gun to me. Hope someone can offer to post the pics as it's a skill I have yet to master. Just have not taken time to figure it out!
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In his book, Jim Gordon shows a full stock percussion rifle marked J. Sites and two half stock percussion rifles marked J. Sites, Boonville, Mo. (presumably Senior), and mentions that J. Sites, Junior moved from there to Clifton, and then to Arrow Rock and set up his own shop.
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Thanks,Mr Oakridge,i was not aware of that book, a few years ago victor a paul was kind enough to email me portions of his book pertaining to JPSites ,very interesting read.
And i still am unable to get more pics posted, is there a kind soul out the that would help me? I would be most grateful if i could email some pics to someone who can post them here thanks in advance.
I took some new pics this morning, they turned out pretty good.
I have discovered photographing a rifle is not easy, if you take a pic of the rifle full length you tend to lose the detail suggestions?
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2Frihveg.jpg&hash=973c697717000ad962e3e2cd62dd1ced8d1f74c6)
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It really looks nice! BTW, here is a link to how to post photos. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
I need to read it myself! Really odd that there has not been more comments on this gun. I tend to feel there is more interest in a PA, VA, TN, KY, NC or maybe WV gun than one made in the Missouri. But I think your gun has some striking features that I have not seen before.
Love it! And it looks like it's in pretty sound shape. Restore?? Not if it were mine!
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That is one FINE looking rifle regardless of maker.
My kind of muzzle loader in flint or "persuction".
Bob Roller
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Thanks Bob,
That means a lot coming from you,
Persuction??? Lol I've heard of flinchlocks ,persuctions must be really rare!
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F2r4lfm9.jpg&hash=2cbb0c8ec9b2ef39248eed10b3840308622379be)
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F2r4lfm9.jpg&hash=2cbb0c8ec9b2ef39248eed10b3840308622379be)
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Whoops
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That is nice,have been to the J.Sites museum/gunship a couple times ,if memory serves correct,your rifle is probably in better condition than any that they have on display.I am sure they would like to have pictures and stats on yours. There is a festival in Arrow Rock I believe the second weekend of Oct. every year, would like to go again,but I go to a rendezvous for about five days at that time here in N.M. Mo.
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That is one FINE looking rifle regardless of maker.
My kind of muzzle loader in flint or "persuction".
Bob Roller
Was that flint er persecution?lol,you do have a way with words,bro Bob.Dave :D
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That is a beauty. Thanks for the pictures.
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@ albert, Wish I could go to Arrowrock, its on the bucket list. Dr. Hall was gracious enough to return .y call and I shared all I know and sent them some real nice pictures. Thanks to him and his father and im sure many others Arrowrock is now not only a state park but a national historic landmark as well!
Way to go Doc Hall !
@ KLMoor, thanks , I saw that squirrel gun you and Bob did , really nice!
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I have seen a number of rifles by the various Sites gunsmiths, over the years. I sold a flintlock J. Sites (Sr.) about a year ago, in fact. I would guess that mine was made about ten years before he "went west". Most of the Arrow Rock Sites rifles I have seen were plain, utilitarian guns. This one is way beyond any of them, and does indeed look to compare with the work of Philip Creamer, who was in Southern Illinois, and briefly in St. Louis, 1806 -1846.
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Oh the PAIN! What I would give for a fine J Sites Sr rifle! Any possibilities that the buyer of the one you sold might be willing to part with it?
Also just wondering about the "before he went west" comment. Any idea of specifically where Sr may have lived before he went west? I know the books claim "Fincastle" (VA). Whisker's book states he was born in Fincastle County on 13 Sept. 1784. Problem is that Fincastle county did not exist as such in 1784. The multi-state sized territory of Botetourt was divided into "Fincastle" (County) and Greenbrier (County) in 1772 - 1777. Fincastle (County) later was divided into "Kentucky", "Washington" and "Montgomery" (1776 - 1777). Now, there is and has always been a small town in the original Botetourt County and the current Botetourt county that is know as Fincastle so it might be that JPS Sr. was from the area now called Fincastle. Or that he might have been from someplace no where near the current Fincastle but anywhere in the southwestern part of VA or even as far west as KY.
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I have heard this rifle is the work of jr. However some say sr because the English produced this style early and JPS senior would certainly know the style.
Comments appreciated!
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Hi "cat". Just left the clerks office at the courthouse. They have on loan a rifle which is claimed to have been made by "John Sites". Theywill not let anyone touch it so I cannot tell if it is signed or not but maybe the "clerk" would give me permission to look closer. It is supposed to be owned by a person who claims to be a descendant of John and I take it he still lives in the county. It looks a lot like the George Sites rifle that I have. Patch boxes are very similar. Nothing like the one you have. I would like to get some photos and measurements if they will allow it but I think it might prove hard to do.
Anything new on your rifle??
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Hey brooktrout, wow a living Sites relative? And they have a Sites rifle? Incredible!
Please give them my email address I would love to hear the history maybe they can sort out the geneology.
Thanks to CurtJ and his kind comment(see comment above) I finally have a good understanding about my rifle, beyond utilitarian and comperable to a Creamer speaks volumes especially since CurtJ and Victor A. Paul wrote the book/books on the subject. Thank you Curt, Thank you Vic.
Brooktrout I sure hope you can gain access to the rifle and the owner they might be a wealth of information good luck keep us posted!
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fatcat: I'm going to check it out today. Since the gun is "on display" in a public building a cannot see any issue with snapping a few photos but as to taking it down and letting me make more detailed photos and measurements....not sure how that will go. Probably not! The owners name is also posted so I'll get it as well as ask if they have his phone number. The rifle and the hand written note have been there some time. Not even sure the owner is still alive. May have been on display and then reverts to county ownership when he dies??
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Hey brooktrout, what happened? The suspense is killing me lol!
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;D looks like I'm going to fix it and shoot it.
Uncle Johnny would have liked that, I know I will!!!
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JB weld is great for breechplugs right ?
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All I can say is "OH @!*%".I like to see a rifle that makes me break out in a sweat and start to breath heavy.
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Thanks Mike
Wish I could get more pics posted , seems there is considerable interest. I have sent several emails to those who have requested more info, lets hope they comment on the forum. If anyone has a Sites gun please comment or contact me . Thanks,Rick
Mike the heavy breathing is making me nervous lol!!!
God bless, hope everyone has a great day.
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Hey fatcat!! Trying to catch this county clerk in his office when I am able to get there has proven quite interesting and informative. I guess it's typical of elected officials with a large administrative staff who can be gone all the time and have the staff do the work!
I'll try again tomorrow and promise to either get some info OR some photos of the gun on display.
BTW, shooting has occupied a LOT of my time recently. Shooting AND cleaning, that is.
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Hey brooktrout,
Good to hear from you I was wondering what happened . Looking forward to the pics and info!
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OK fatcat, I got some info. First, the clerk was really a nice fellow. Gave me lots of time and said I could take the gun down and check it carefully which I did not do this trip. I did get a few photos and I'll send them via a PM. Secondly, I was apparently wrong about the owner of the gun being a descendant of Sites. I don't know how I came to that conclusion but both I and my wife left that day with the same idea. I think possibly one of the admin people there may have made that claim but the clerk says he did not think the owner was related to Sites. Also, the owner was a former county Clerk but has been dead for several years. He is supposed to have a son somewhere in the area however. While the gun is "signed" there is no way to make out the barrel markings. The clerk had a magnifying glass and it did not help. He says he can barely make it out. I say that reading the markings as "John Sites" is impossible. In fact I could not make out a single letter. One of my club members and an old time resident claimed the gun is a John Painter gun but no way to confirm that either.
The clerk also gave me some info from the internet about Sites. You may have already seen that as some was from a 2008 meeting in Arrow Rock. A second article came from a book or article, "Guns Along the Sante Fe Trail". I'll mail them to you if you give me the address in a PM. My best to you in your research. Things are such that I will be ending my participation in the forum as soon as I get the PM message to you and hopefully your address in reply. There are too many who seem to relish in the "troll roll" with too much and too many opinions offered as facts.
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I am very interested in SITES rifles and other Missouri guns. I have a few Sites rifles. If you would give me a call , I'd like to discuss this one further with you . Curt Johnson told me about your rifle . Thanks ! I look forward to hearing from you. 573-201-1459.
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@ moseswhite, call curt back.
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Congratulations to the new owner! Rest assured this rifle in in great hands and will be professionally restored. I am out looking for the next one.
Fatcat
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Thumbing thru old threads and found this.
My pard and I interpret the J. Sites gunsmith shop in Arrow Rock! We're not great gun builders, but have fun in our funny clothes!!!
Come see us in October, and bring a Sites gun for us to see if possible!!!
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Did you see this thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31389.0
Dennis
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Did you see this thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31389.0
Dennis
Yes, it's this thread lol!!!
I'd love to have a chance at a J. Sites rifle!!
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I have learned a great deal about Sites in the past many months. When I have seen signed J Sites such as the one which is the initial post of this thread was probably made by his son, John Peter Jr. and in your area. I think the works took on a very distinctive "plains rifle" look as was probably influenced by the Hawken rifle and other St Louis area works. But still I think I encountered a more traditional "long rifle" made in MO but for sure there were none I am aware of made in VA that looked like the one pictured above. I would also love to have a rifle by J. P. Sites, Jr. Got one made by uncle George, daddy J. P., Sr and would it not be nice to have one by Jr. Passed up one by cousin William some months ago. OK rifle but out of my price range.
Overall, I feel they (Sites family) are all under appreciated being overshadowed by the likes of Sheetz, etc. from further up the valley. As a matter of fact I think there was a Sites family working in Covington, VA in the not too distant past...maybe to 60's and 70's. His shop was reported to be loaded with family works although this one, so I am told, worked on customizing "modern" bolt action hunting rifles but probably could make anything he wanted to.
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Here's a pic inside the J. Sites shop, that's me filing on a trigger guard!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb147%2Ffireman_3311%2FCC08216A-9A6A-4514-96E0-44CFE442DB9E_zpso6mchzpp.jpg&hash=cc5c4310d5b1b1152622c8e8b4004f7bee6f530d) (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/fireman_3311/media/CC08216A-9A6A-4514-96E0-44CFE442DB9E_zpso6mchzpp.jpg.html)
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I am a descendant of the Sites family and would pay a pretty premium to own a Sites gun if anyone is selling.
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Something you may enjoy.
https://fincastleherald.com/two-local-gunsmiths-reunited-in-botetourt-nearly-200-years-later/
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I am a descendant of the Sites family and would pay a pretty premium to own a Sites gun if anyone is selling.
I would contact these fellows, they get one from time to time.
https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory.html
https://lamasterarms.com/
https://michaeltuccoriantiques.com/html/kentucky-rifles.html
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There are no images in this thread that show up on my end?
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I have the same problem as Taylor. No images either
They might be
Out of Sites
Hahahaha 🤣😂
Dave