AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: moleeyes36 on February 24, 2015, 12:55:41 AM
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I have a new pistol barrel from which I need to remove the breech plug so the barrel can be inlet. This puppy is really in there tight. I've tried soaking it in Liquid Wrench oil for a few days and heating it with a map gas torch, but I can't get it to budge. There may not have been any anti-seize applied to the threads of the plug when it was seated initially. As you can see from the pictures, the sides of the plug are tapered and prevent me from getting a good grip on it with a wrench. Because of this taper, I'm apprehensive about damaging it with a wrench. Anyone know how to remove the plug from one of Hugh’s barrels? Thanks.
Mole Eyes
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Leverage ;D Seriously…I have a piece of 3/4 inch bar that I forged into a breach plug wrench. It is 2 and 1/2 feet long. If I clamp the barrel in my bench vice , and put my weight on the wrench, all of the plugs I've tried to remove have broken loose.
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.... Anyone know how to remove the plug from one of Hugh’s barrels? Thanks.
Hugh does! ;) ;D
Otherwise, a tight breech plug requires the barrel be clamped in a good strong vise mounted to a heavy fixed workbench.
As Bob suggests, it's fairly common practice make a breech plug wrench to fit the bolster or to grind the jaws of an old wrench you might have laying around so that they are the same angle as the bolster's sides. You may even need a "cheater" in the form of a pipe or something to add length to the wrench to deliver more force.
If your worried about marring the bolster a little marring can be filed out or you could bend some sheet brass around it....and, by all means, avoid the having the wrench reach so far up on to the bolster to where its jaws straddle the tang, elsewise you will mar the tang sides.
Haven't had a breech plug that didn't come out yet....even a couple that the threads were pretty galled up on.
Enjoy, J.D.
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Some where on the forum here is a message on building an adjustable breechplug wrench from 3/4" square stock that can be adjusted to fit tapered plugs tightly so there is no slipping. I will try to find it later but you might find it first.
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Sometimes an old pipe wrench has just enough slop in it to fit a tapered plug.
Do you know who made that barrel? I built a rifle out of one with that marking. It shoots so good that I'd like to get another.
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It's definitely starting to look like I may have to try to make a breech plug wrench that fits this thing. I've never failed to extract a breech plug yet, but this stuck, tight tapered one is trying to be the first. >:(
Mole Eyes
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Sometimes an old pipe wrench has just enough slop in it to fit a tapered plug.
Do you know who made that barrel? I built a rifle out of one with that marking. It shoots so good that I'd like to get another.
Nate,
I'm senile and can't remember the maker's last name. His first name is Hugh and his last name starts with a T. However, I bought the barrel from Dave Rase and he probably remembers the makers name. Sorry.
Mole Eyes
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My breech plug wrench is two 1" chunks of key stock with two 5/16 bolts through each side of the key stock, above and below the tang therefore fitting the tapper. Make sure you dont clamp the barrel over the threaded portion where the plug screws in. Enough key stock on each end to use as handles.
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I don't recommend this (in case something screws up :-[) but I have had the same problem with some barrels. I solved it by picking a nice big fat hammer, putting pressure on the wrench and frailing the end of the wrench with the hammer. Haven't had one fail to release yet.
I DO have a great vise to hold the barrel and I do use brass shims to protect the breech plug. I normally use an aluminum (yes aluminum) pipe wrench with about an 18 inch handle. Many plugs just will not break loose with only an 18 inch handle. I think the sudden impact breaks it loose.
Oh, one other thing, don't forget to make sure your barrel vise is not clamping the barrel threads, back off about 3/4" from the end of the barrel.
Dennis
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If it is a flint barrel with the liner installed by Hugh Toenjes it goes through the plug, if it's the one I'm
thinking about. Can't take out the breech plug, unless you remove the touchhole liner.
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Mole Eyes,
It may just be an optical illusion from the angle of the picture, but based on the witness mark, it looks like you've moved the plug a little already. I hope it doesn't have the touchhole thru the breech plug, like flinchrocket mentioned.
-Ron
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If it is a flint barrel with the liner installed by Hugh Toenjes it goes through the plug, if it's the one I'm
thinking about. Can't take out the breech plug, unless you remove the touchhole liner.
I knew somebody would know Hugh's last name, thanks.
No, this barrel is not drilled for a touchhole, it's not drilled at all. I'll have to go to Northern Tool, Harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. tomorrow and look for an aluminum pipe wrench. I don't recall ever seeing one but it sounds like a handy tool to have on hand.
Mole Eyes
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I'll have to go to Northern Tool, Harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. tomorrow and look for an aluminum pipe wrench. I don't recall ever seeing one but it sounds like a handy tool to have on hand.
Good luck, I haven't seen one other than mine. It belonged to my dad who died over 20 years ago and he owned that wrench for as long as I can remember. It has steel inserts in the jaws and the handle has a raised rib that runs around the perimeter, I assume to strengthen it. *well I'll be, just googled it and it looks like Rigid makes one as do others. Rigid even makes one 48" long if you want to pay $382.53 for it!*
Dennis
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I'll have to go to Northern Tool, Harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. tomorrow and look for an aluminum pipe wrench. I don't recall ever seeing one but it sounds like a handy tool to have on hand.
Good luck, I haven't seen one other than mine. It belonged to my dad who died over 20 years ago and he owned that wrench for as long as I can remember. It has steel inserts in the jaws and the handle has a raised rib that runs around the perimeter, I assume to strengthen it. *well I'll be, just googled it and it looks like Rigid makes one as do others. Rigid even makes one 48" long if you want to pay $382.53 for it!*
Dennis
Yes it seems all the places where I was going to look has them for around $20 to $30. I guess I'll run out and get one in the morning. At my age I don't think I could even lift a 48" pipe wrench even if it was mostly aluminum :D. Thanks, I'll let you know things work out tomorrow in round two of the tapered breech plug versus the old goat.
Mole Eyes
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If possible contact the maker for his recomendation.
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"Blacksmoke" is the handle for Hugh T on this forum. I'm sure if you contacted him he could offer advice.
Good Luck
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I have a 3' pipe that fits over the handle of my wrench.
Regards,
Pletch
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When I was working in the papermill, I saw 48in. pipe wrenches(steel and aluminum)bent by production people. They would have a stuck valve handwheel and get the big wrench and a long piece of pipe for a cheater. Then two of them would get on it. Two pieces of keystock and some bolts to clamp the plug should work. Then put the wrench on the keystock.
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Heat it red hot and let it cool all the way. It will probably come out easy then. It doesn't hurt a black powder barrel to heat it at the breech as long as you don't cool it by quenching.
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Be careful with the long pipe on the wrench. I still have a scar on my cheek from the wrench jaws exploding while using this method on a stuck bomb rack bolt in 1971. As it turned out, the wrench was a mite too hard.
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Years ago I bought two 15" adjustable (Cresent) wrenches at the flea market, Kept one straight jawed
& ground & sanded the other jaws to a taper for taperd breech plug lugs. BIG vice, brass strip jaw liners,
and a BIG work bench. Do not clamp the barrel in the vice over the breechplug. If need be, a 3' cheater
pipe on the wrench.
Keith Lisle
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Years ago I bought two 15" adjustable (Cresent) wrenches at the flea market, Kept one straight jawed
& ground & sanded the other jaws to a taper for taperd breech plug lugs. BIG vice, brass strip jaw liners,
and a BIG work bench. Do not clamp the barrel in the vice over the breechplug. If need be, a 3' cheater
pipe on the wrench.
Keith Lisle
By altering that wrench,you've messed up its metric capabilities. ;D
Bob Roller
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Bob, it was a metric adjustable wrench.
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Seriously guys - Hugh Tonjes.
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If you can lay hands on and old Monkey Wrench it will work well!!
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The vise you hold the barrel in, is just as, if not more important than the wrench you use. The vast majority of common bench vises are not up to the task. When you apply a large amount of torque with a wrench the barrel will undoubtedly twist in the vise jaws and become horribly marred.
If you know anyone with a milling machine with a vise bolted to the table, ask if you can hold your barrel in it as you remove the plug. After using a mill vise once to remove a stubborn plug, you will never do it any other way. If it is a swamped or tapered barrel just be sure to use brass or copper shims before tightening the vise.
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Posted this before but the issue of holding a barrel in a vise without marring the barrel and with a secure grip I resolved by making a tool to hold each specific barrel. I take two matching pieces of hard maple about 2X4X4 and hollow out the center of each so the barrel will fit inside with some space on all sides. Then I put enough bondo in each half to fill in around the barrel, wrap the barrel in plastic wrap and clamp the two blocks together in place around the barrel until the next morning. The two blocks and bondo will securely hold the barrel even in a relatively small vise without damaging the barrel. Mark the blocks so you know which barrel they fit.
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I made a couple jaw liners out of copper, about 1/16" or less, certainly not more. I might get a little copper smearing on the barrel once and a while bit it comes right off.
Robby
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I will use the bench vise on occasion to hold the bbl for breech plug removal, but if it doesn't come right out, I move over to my bbl vise.
In the bench vise a set of wooden jaws w/a V cut lengthwise will suffice most times to hold a M/L bbl secure. You need something other than just the vise jaws clamping down on the opposing flats of an oct bbl in most cases. The bbl will roll right out of the bench vise on you with likely damage to the bbl otherwise.
Wooden blocks/jaws made up specially for the bbl as described above work the best. Cast the bbl profile in epoxy. Use a bit of rosin on the round bbls (sugar works pretty well too) to prevent slipping. Holding the bbl upright or at an angle in a bench vise with these block jaws works good as the vise jaw spans the block.
Sometimes I cast the blocks from lead. A simple box mould made of turned up copper sheet w/a cut out at each end to allow the bbl to lay down in the 'block' a bit. A simple pour of two of these for one bbl yields a very nice set of never scratch jaws.
Set them down less then 1/2 their dia so you have some draw avail when in use.
Pure lead is too soft I've found as it extrudes when tightened down in a bbl vise,loosening as you work.
Regular bullet mix works fine.
A bbl vise is easy to make w/a couple pieces of 1/2 to 3/4 flat stock steel and 4 sturdy bolts to draw the top plate down upon the bottom plate w/your wooden block jaws in betw. Bolt the entire thing to the far end of your bench facing lengthwise. Out of the way but with the room to use it when needed.
A wrench of two pieces of 5/8 or even 1" square stock and two bolts. The 'handle' about 12+inches long,,the jaw piece about 5". Make the holes in the jaw piece loose enough so the jaw can be tightened down at an angle onto the slant sided breech plugs and other less then square shapes.
Keep a cheater bar of a piece of steelpipe to slide over the end of the wrench handle if needed to break things free.
A piece of copper or brass between the plug and wrench prevents marring.
With the above wrench, bbl vise, wooden & lead jaw/blocks and a few odd adaptor plates and shims made as needed,, over the years I've removed and replaced countless center fire rifle bbls Military & commercial, shotgun magazine tubes, bbl extensions, pistol and revolver bbls,,and M/L breech plugs.
Simple hook wrenches, cresent tools and the like can be used but they usually mar the breech plug up and just don't have the control of a tight fitting tool like the above. You have to put the plug back in later on and would like to have the same sturdy set up to ease the plug back in to it's witness mark.
Just some thoughts
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Heat it red hot and let it cool all the way. It will probably come out easy then. It doesn't hurt a black powder barrel to heat it at the breech as long as you don't cool it by quenching.
Jerry, as you suggested, I heated the breech end of the barrel red hot with my map gas and small propane torch combined. I let it cool while I was out buying an eighteen inch pipe wrench as plan "B". When I got back it unscrewed as soon as I touched it with the wrench, just from the weight of the wrench. No fuss and no muss. That’s a trick I will definitely remember. Thanks.
Mole Eyes
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When vintage metal ferrules on fishing rods got really stuck, we would pack the ferrules with ice for a couple hours, time enough for both the male and female to be super cold and then lightly heat the female. The male would still be contracted while female would expand enough to get them apart. If you salt the ice it will get the whole mess even colder. Don't have a clue if it would work on breech plugs or not.
RFMcD
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Flint,
This is how I do it.
First I take a piece of .040 brass sheet stock and make vice jaw protectors that are as wide as the vise jaws.
Then I mount the barrel horizontally in the vise so that the entire jaw surface is protected from the barrel with my jaw protectors and then I tighten the vise as tight as I can get it.
I use a 16" adjustable wrench (or the tool that John Getz sold me 3 years ago) and I place the wrench on the tang plug so that the jaws do NOT extend all the way to the top flat.
Put a piece of pipe on the wrench handle and use a 3 pound lump hammer on the wrench handle while keeping pressure on the wrench like Dennis suggested.
Lastly I repeat to myself very quietly so no one else will hear: "Lefty loosey, righty tighty."
This process often works better for me when I adjust the order of these steps, by it always has worked.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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I bought some nifty aluminum vice inserts from Brownels years ago. Each is 3 sided to clamp octagon barrels. Don't know if they still have them though.
Turtle
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Hey moleeyes 36, Want to see something nice,just go to Jerrys site look at the Vigilance rifle and the Durrs Egg Iroquois Chief rifle and well all of them.
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Is the white residue the remains of Loctite?
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Is the white residue the remains of Loctite?
I don't know, but it certainly came bubbling out of when the breech end started to get really hot.
Mole Eyes
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Mole Eyes
Works for me every time.
Shifty. I will put a new gun on my web site as soon as I figure out how. Yahoo Changed their site builder and I have to learn a new system. I am so busy building and engraving I don't have time to learn a new site builder.
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I put blue locktite on all my breechplugs and liners. This acts as a sealer to keep crud out and a anti-seize. I have removed breechplugs I put in 20 years ago with no problem.
Turtle
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New to the forum and my first post. Didn't want to post unless I felt I could contribute.
I have used the Dixie Gun Works Breech Plug Wrench MT-1405. Its a copy of an antique gunsmithing tool from an Appalachian shop. Basically its a steel bar of square stock bent to accommodate two breech plug sizes. I wrap a strib of leather in the wrench and use the techniques you call out for loosening a breech plug. Yes, qa steady vise with some sort of insert to protect the barrel is needed.
Glad you were able to remove the breech plug.
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I totally agree on the real barrel vice, advice. I made my first one with two big pieces of steel and a couple of 1/2" NF bolts. I now use a 30 ton hydrolic press. A machinist vice is asking for trouble. You just can't get it tight enough to prevent slipping with a very tight plug. On modern cartridge guns the set up described is an absolute must.
I also endorse maple blocks fitted to the barrel. Finally, use some rosin on the maple blocks. Get a little block of violin rosin. Scrap off some powder onto the blocks. It will make a huge difference.
Once you have it secure enough to put real torque on the wrench you can use hammer blows to jar it loose. Lean on the cheater bar and give the wrench or plug end smart wackes with a hammer. This works like an impact wrench. It now is a two person job.
All that being said. There is no reason to ever put a ML plug so tight as to require a 30 ton press, rosined maple blocks and a fitted wrench with a cheater bar.
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I've never had a breech plug that I couldn't remove with a large wrench, a good vise, and some muscle prior to this one. There have been many good suggestions here on different ways to apply great force and leverage in removing a breech plug, and I'm sure they all work well.
All I can say is the next time you have a breech plug to remove, you might consider trying Jerry's method of heating it to cherry red and then letting it cool before you use the brute force method. It worked amazingly well on getting the stuck plug out of the barrel I had without forcing it at all. Just sayin'.
Mole Eyes