AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Molly on June 26, 2015, 04:22:17 AM
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Just curious, and would like to poll the board with a simple response...."I do" OR I don't. Don't want to open the entire range of cleaning discussion so here is the question:
Do you use a brush on the bore when cleaning. I do.
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I don't.
Mark
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Sorry but sometimes ;D
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I would ask what a brush will remove , that a jag and patch , or a worm and tow, won't ? i.e. why ?
Water does most of the work of cleaning for me. Seriously, I use brushes for my modern arms, but gave up on them for my long rifles many years ago. Just not needed.
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Good evening Molly; I do not. I have no need of a brush. Started shooting muzzleloaders in 1975. AJ.
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Tow and water do all I need.
No brush, evah.
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No brush for me. I just use a jag an cleaning patch.
Roger Sells
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Tow/water Does a fine job. If ya dont have tow and a worm use the brush
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Nope.
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Hi Molly, I use just a special brush designed to clean the face of the breech plug. It has brass bristle's on it's end only and not on it's sides. Works well for me.
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Read too many "how do I get my stuck brush out of the bore" posts. No brush for me.
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Interesting. Looks like "no brush" wins so far. As to tow. I see it as a brush substitute, however.
So then let me ask how many use a brush to clean the lock (after removing it for cleaning)?
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For the lock sometimes I use a brass brush when it gets really filthy other than that no. For the bore never.
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I don't use a brass brush, but I do use a nylon one for my .40 cal. I wish I could find some more (the one I have is getting a might worn) and a couple for my .50 cal. I find them useful if you end up with a fouling ring near the breech.
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Not in the bore, there's no need, but I do use a stiff nylon bristle tooth brush for cleaning the lock.
Mole Eyes
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I too use an old toothbrush on the internals of my locks.
Mark
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I did use a bronze bristle brush once, it came apart while at the breech. I was lucky inthat it had a cleanning patch around it and that helped seal the bore some what when I used some 4f to pop it out the muzzle end. Never used one after that.
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Brush the lock, but not the bore. Is there anything about that which seems odd?
I fully understand the issue with having to try to remove a brush from the bore.
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toothbrush the lock in water, blow dry and lube, no brush for bore, NN (notneeded) 1 patch for cleaning (pumping water), 4-5 for drying, then oil.
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I use tooth brushes on the lock. For the bore I use a patch cut from a "Scotch Bright" pad in place of a brush. Five or ten passes gets stuff out of all those corners and hidy places.
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tooth brush for the lock,
tee shirt material for the bore and plain water
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Brush the lock, but not the bore. Is there anything about that which seems odd?
No, personally speaking I got completely sick of wearing out brushes (and breathing copper solvents) in all the years I shot jacketed pills for fun and competition. Now I find absolutely zero need to drag such a critter up and down my bores, so i don't. Inspection with a 'scope in the bore has shown me that tow does all for my cleaning needs. Why complicate things? That would be odd.
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The only thing you need a brush for in a muzzleloader is to remove the lead fouling from connical bullets. Shooting PRB does not need a brush. So, to answer the question, as a PRB shooter, I do not use a brush.
I do use a toothbrush to clean the lock and the area around the nipple.
John
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I thought you were asking whether we shoot with bad breath and crummy teeth. ;)
I used the water (with dish soap) and patch method and then ran a bore scope down the bore. There was crud in the rifling corners after cleaning in some of my traditional muzzleloaders. I ran a nylon bore brush in the rifles and was able to get the residuals out of the rifling.
Please note that not all my muzzleloaders needed the brush.
Ron
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Nope, see no need for a brush. Use water with a bit of Murpheys Oil Soap on patches and that's it.
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no bore brush......clean the lock, the oil everything down, rig the bore.
but then it's been 2+yrs since I have gone shooting!
marc n tomtom ;D
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Yes, I do. I have cleaned bores with just water or water and soap or cleaning solution and any number of patches. Finally they will come out perfectly clean. Everything looks clean and shiny with the bore light.
Then put a good squirt of WD40 down and a few more patches and eventually they too come out clean.
A good gun oil copiously applied, put away, taken out weeks later and the dry patches to wipe the bore come out stained (no, not rust!).
Seems the real test of cleanleness is to be able to push a very tight, dry cleaning patch all the way down the bore with no resistant, no jamming. And to feel smooth all the way down, no drag, no restriction, to the bottom of the breech and back again. I can only get that by the jusdiscious use of a bronze brush, particular at the breech end. Always a surprise what continues to come out of a 'clean' bore with that.
What causes the hard to remove fouling? My theory is the burning of both the powder and lube together can leave a hard, possibly greasy 'varnish' on the walls that builds up over time.
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Howdy do Molly, I have no use for a bore brush but I do use a tooth brush to clean around the nipple hole and part of the barrel around the nipple to get all the burnt powder off. Just a couple of three patches on my jag thru the bore and thats it. I do oil both inside and outside after drying everything.
topknot
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Well, it still looks like "no brush" is still in the lead (about 2 to 1) but mind you I consider a Scotch Bright pad as well as tow to be more "brush like" than "patch like" and tallied them accordingly. A few of you were bold enough to admit using a brush for external cleaning but not the bore. No one seems to have picked up on what I see as a logical inconsistency in that. If it requires a brush to clean the external parts someone needs to reconcile why no brush for the bore....(apart from the potential of having it "break" off and need to be removed). Interesting that several have used brushes in the past but not any longer.
Hammer, I think you are touching on a point made earlier. Clean clean and clean some more. Patches come out spotless, right. NOW, squirt some Ballistol, Rem oil or CLP down, run a brush down once or twice and then swab it again. I bet a dirty patch comes out! However, Hammer, WD usually does not bring out the crude like the other products noted...or at least that's my experience.
Mind you I'm not about to change my routine no matter what the final total may be (I do like the scotch Bright idea) but it's pretty clear that there seems to be more than one way to skin the cat! Ooooo, sorry TomTom.
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Thanks Molly. I agree about WD40, not the best cleaner. I use it to spray the internal lock parts to flush away any loose dirt. Just used here for demonstration.
For those with a stuck brush, usually a good twist will rearrange the bristles and allow it to be pulled out. (Easier in a really clean barrel). If still jammed or broken off the simple solution is a metal tube slightly smaller than the bore and longer than the barrel. Bevel the inside edge at one end. Push it down to the breech and over the bristles and pull both out. Couldn't be easier.
Or a long thin rod or wire with one end bent back on itself a little. Push down through the bristles and hook out the brush.
Good luck,
Peter.
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I never use WD-40 as a cleaner. After cleaning with hot soapy water I spray the parts with WD-40 so it lifts the water off the metal surfaces. After using all that water I need some peace of mind knowing there is something in between all that water and the metal.
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No bore brush, but I use a brush on the lock parts. I see no inconsistency at all. A jag cleans the bore perfectly, but there is no such tool available for external surfaces.......no wait, yes there is; a brush.
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I think that's what it is Molly why people don't use a brush in the bore anymore because there is just to big of a risk having the brush stuck or broken off in the bore. That's why I never used one.
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Reason enough I suppose, crawdad. I was able to get one out. It did cause a lot of anxiety but it was not as hard as I expected. For sure I don't try to use one until the bore is as clean as I can get it with just patches. And I use a good healthy dose of lub with it. Also, I do not want to ever try to use a brush bigger than the bore cal. Mashing the bristles back going down can be a problem when trying to pull it back out but I know Hammer's suggestion of giving it a twist can somewhat address that problem.
But hey, I can see an opportunity here to design and patent a brush pulling tool....maybe?
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"But hey, I can see an opportunity here to design and patent a brush pulling tool....maybe?'
I think you may have something there Molly :)
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It a already exists. Nylon bristle brushes. I used mine 10-15 times today at a match. Sometimes w a patch over the lower end of the brush.
TC
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I do not use a brush
dave
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Molly,
Easiest way to pull a stuck brush out of a barrel is to use a piece of tubing just under bore size. Slide it down the barrel and around the brush. It will encase the bristles and allow you to pull the brush out. Ask me how I know.
Mark
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I don't. And so I never need tricks to extract a stuck brush.
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No brush.
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I use nylon brushes. Never an issue sticking one in the bore.
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The only time I use a brush is on the neglected barrels that show up on customers guns. BJH
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Bore brush, no. Toothbrush on the lock, yes. It's not an inconsistency, it's cleaning 2 differently shaped things. Cloth patches work fine in my barrels, and a toothbrush works fine on my locks.
-Ron
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Well, "No Brush" still leads but the recent margin is 5 to 3 so we brush users are gaining. I hope to go to the range this week and will photo some evidence to support my practice. One thing for sure about BP shooting, esp traditional firearms, is that people form their opinions and it does not seem to matter what others think or do, their way is the only way and the best way. That's OK. I'm the same way however I still have an open mind and will look at options.
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Bore brush, no. Toothbrush on the lock, yes. It's not an inconsistency, it's cleaning 2 differently shaped things. Cloth patches work fine in my barrels, and a toothbrush works fine on my locks.
-Ron
Exactly, Ron. Under the pan, in the frizzen pivot, around the feather spring - blow it off and spray with WD40. Water gone, shake or use air to blow off the excess, replace. Neat thing about the WD40, (I never have to brush the inside parts, spring, tumbler, sear, where the moly grease is, as no fouling EVER gets there) it does not spray off the moly grease. I usually only replace the grease once a year.
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In the past, I have tried using a bronze brush in my 50 cal rifles. I did not see an advantage, so I ceased. I use a jag for the particular bore, turned down slightly to receive two thicknesses of flannel, for cleaning, It is a tight combination and requires all my strength to withdraw once bottomed in the breech. I hydraulic water (only) in and out of the bore with this system to clean. I flush with liberal dose of WD 40, then dry the bore with a patch wet with the same. I store my rifles muzzle down.
BUT, I DO use a bronze brush in my shotguns! A patched jag alone takes too long to loosen the huge build up of fouling left after shooting shot. I finish with patched jag, water, then dry and oil as with the rifle. Again, I store them muzzle against a wooden floor.
I use a 'shop' toothbrush around the lock parts, and the standing breech.
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I use a 'shop' toothbrush around the lock parts, and the standing breech.
Yeah- good idea on the shop brush, Tracy didn't like me using her's. ;)
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I use a breech brush made by bill slusser a custom gun builder here in south central pa., never a black ring
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Tooth brush on the lock and cloth patches only in the barrel. No bore brush ever
~Tony
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No brush.
SR51
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No brush.
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When I do a cleaning for one of my muzzle loading firearms that will be stored for an extended period of time (more then a day) I brush. I always have and always will.
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I'm solidly in your camp "Candle". Also use one to clean the toilet bowls. Different one of course but nothing works like a brush. I will add however that we brush people are somewhat outnumbered by the no brush people but THEY ALL HAVE DIRTY BORES! yuck!!
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I just did an experiment on a Lyman Mountain Rifle in 54 cal and an older, what I think is a TVM flintlock in 45 cal.
Fired 9 shots through the 54 cal and 10 rounds through the Flintlock.
I did not clean the rifles between the shots and it became tough to ram the ball and patch down the flintlock for the last shots.
Immediately after shooting, I poured a dish soap/water mixture down the barrels and let the black water pour out of the touch hole or nipple hole. Then I poured more water/soap in the barrels and let it sit for about 2 minutes and poured it out. That was followed by several cleaning patch-jag wipes until the patches were coming out mostly clean.
I transported the rifles home, a trip of about 40 minutes, and cleaned both rifles with water that had a few drops of dish detergent in it. The cleaning consisted of pushing a jag and patch down and back out of the bore, changing the patch, and doing it again. Each rifle took about 4 patches before the patches came out looking clean. Then I did a wipe with a patch that had Ballistol on it and a wipe to clean out whatever the Ballistol dissolved or suspended.
I ran my inexpensive (Harbor Freight Tools) bore scope down each barrel. The bores were shiny and clean looking. However, there were significant dots of dark debris in the corners of the rifling grooves of both rifles. It was worse in the flintlock.
The next step was to use a nylon bore brush. After suffering a stuck bronze bore brush, I will use only a nylon type. After five, down and back scrubs with the nylon bore brush, I used the scope again. Most of the dark debris lodged in the sharp corners was gone.
Perhaps the corner debris was harmless and the nylon brushing unnecessary .... or not. I don't want to leave that residual in the bore to find out if it effects the bore.
Ron
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That's the main reason I brush, RonC.
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We flush water into and out of the bores from a container - drawing it in through the vent or nipple seat then flushing it out same way, then the flushing action along with a tight double thickness flannel patch removes ALL of the fouling - thus we do not need a brush - there is NO fouling left in the corners nor on or around the breech plug.
1 patch to clean and 4 or 5 for drying and oiling. They all are reusable.
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I read things like that Daryl and yet when I discuss it with fellow shooters on one will admit to a rifle coming clean with such little effort. I have one of those "cleaning tools" that fits over the touch hole. Put a patch on a jag and also add an oiled patch to keep it from getting saturated but it still does and it seems to me that it never draws in sufficient water to fill the barrel, water saturates the patch and it diminishes the suction. As to checking with a bore light, I always find mine looking good but with 42 or 44 inches of barrel it's pretty much impossible to really see all the way down. I also wonder how some people define a "clean patch". To me, it's one that looks like it has never been used.
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My acid test (so to speak) is that on the following day after a cleaning (with the brush / both square & round bottom rifling) I run a dry clean patch down the bore. They've always came as white as they went in.
What ever the method used by each shooter that works is the way to go. :)
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I read things like that Daryl and yet when I discuss it with fellow shooters on one will admit to a rifle coming clean with such little effort. I have one of those "cleaning tools" that fits over the touch hole. Put a patch on a jag and also add an oiled patch to keep it from getting saturated but it still does and it seems to me that it never draws in sufficient water to fill the barrel, water saturates the patch and it diminishes the suction. As to checking with a bore light, I always find mine looking good but with 42 or 44 inches of barrel it's pretty much impossible to really see all the way down. I also wonder how some people define a "clean patch". To me, it's one that looks like it has never been used.
Your cleaning patch is not thick enough. It has to be wet or it will not seal the bore. Some water will get past it and they helps seal as you withdraw it up the bore - that is normal. The oiled patch you add is superfluous - not needed - have no idea how or why you came up with that idea of trying to clean with water and oil at the same time. No wonder you can't get it clean. The oil will not disolve BP fouling, but instead will make it difficult to get the fouling out. You need a tighter patch. Wet it first - it must be WET to work as a seal.
We dunk the end of the barrel in the container of water for cleaning. Perhaps I failed to explain that. Water is sucked into then pumped out of the barrel with a doubled flannelette patch on a jag - over and over and over again. Jags are sized appropriately to allow a doubled patch. This is especially important with deep groove barrels. an electric drill held in a bench vice can act as a lathe for filing the jab smaller if needed.
Done use jags with brass threads - those will break. Centre-drill, thread to 8x32 or 10x32 and replace the brass threads with steel ones cut from an 8x32 or 10x32 machine screw.
People who use or have used some of the phony powders in past years - or have failed in other ways to keep the barrel worms at bay (rusting causing pitting, or flash rusting causing pitting, probably cannot get their barrels clean any other way - yet still refuse to remove the barrel for cleaning. Others seem to get their barrels clean with other methods. One is to plug the vent or nipple seat, then fill the barrel with clear water. Let it sit, then with a patched jag, blast the water out the vent or nipple seat. The hard flow of water will clean the fouling off the plug and interior of the barrel. Just letting the dirty water run out does not use the forces of pressurized water to assist in cleaning. The fil land let sit is done 3 to 5 times and the barrel will actually come out pretty clean - that way - but - generally not as clean as the pumping method noted above.
By the sound of your description, you are using to loose a patch. What is the OILED patch for? - first time I've ever heard of that - I have one of those gizmos and stopped using it due to problems with taking to long to suck in enough water each stroke to FILL the bore. It still did it but took longer than I wanted.
As far as talking to people who say they cannot get their barrels clean - well, that is why one ALWAYS inspects the interior of a ML before buying it - too many people do not clean their guns very well - many of them use Pyrodex or other perchlorate powders and most people you talk to also think they have to wipe the bores while shooting because they get powder fouling buildup. We don't wipe and we know how to clean our bores and the methods we've mentioned work for ALL of us. None of us has difficulty loading - and many of us, including my daughter and wife use the same snug combinations we do - requiring no wiping while shooting and barrels get removed and cleaned after using them. Works for us as Candle Snuffer noted.
I never said there was little effort - but cleaning a ML barrel by the methods we use, gets them clean of all fouling. It takes only one doubled patch for cleaning, - many strokes of sucking the water in and pumping it out again - but only one doubled patch. IT only takes 4 or 5 doubled patches for drying - THEN the bore is sprayed VERY liberally with WD40, then that is patched out- blasting WD40 out the vent or nipple seat- don't point the vent or nipple seat towards your trousers! For us, we're almost done- that WD40 patch is used to wipe down the outside of the barrel, it is returned to the stock then stored muzzle down. The lock is cleaned with a toothbrush and water, then blown quite dry with compressed air, then liberally sprayed with WD40, then flown off again, then wiped down of excess, then replaced on the gun.
No- the WD40 does not make a film on anything. Tired of hearing that. I've been cleaning by the method noted above since 1972- NONE of my barrels (aside from the one form 1974 that I used Pyrodex home made Chlorate percussion caps in) has any roughness or pitting - they all shine like polished steel if the plugs are removed & they are pointed at a light bulb. No fouling, no pits.
Works for us.
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So, I take it that you unpin your barrels each time for cleaning?
As a relatively new muzzleloader enthusiast (4 years), I have avoided removing the pins frequently because I have read that it will enlarge the holes and sometime chip the far end of the stock when re-inserted.
I do remove my mountain rifle barrels because it is so easy to pop out and insert the barrel key.
Ron
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We all removed our longrifle barrels for cleaning - except maybe LB? If the pins are removed from the same side each time, and the corners are rounded, no chips. One must be careful, of course.
LB uses the "plug" the vent, fill with water, let side, flush that out (blasting it out the vent), repeat until clean - usually 3 or 4 times. I have used that method at Rendezvous often as the breaks while letting the cool or cold water dissolve the fouling inside, allows time for having an adult beverage.
This method used more patches, normally.
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Daryl's comments +1. I have used an almost identical proceedure since the 60's (19 not 18) and it works. Can't see a reason to fix something that isn't broken.
Mark
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Others seem to get their barrels clean with other methods. One is to plug the vent or nipple seat, then fill the barrel with clear water. Let it sit, then with a patched jag, blast the water out the vent or nipple seat. The hard flow of water will clean the fouling off the plug and interior of the barrel. Just letting the dirty water run out does not use the forces of pressurized water to assist in cleaning. The fil land let sit is done 3 to 5 times and the barrel will actually come out pretty clean - that way - but - generally not as clean as the pumping method noted above.
Guess this fits into this thread. I use the method Daryl describes above. No question it work well but here is the only thing I dislike about it and if someone has a solution I would love to hear it. I use a round toothpick in the touch home, fill barrel with cold water, let sit then if I am at my range I lay my rifle on the bench, lock hanging off the edge of the bench, protecting it with old blanket or similiar. I pull the tooth pick and ram the jag/patch down and blow all the water fouling etc out the vent hole. My problem is when I am shooting where no bench is around, I normally sit the rifle on its butt and follow the same procedures. I always manage for some of the dirty water/fouling to run down the comb of the stock and leave a stain that I have been unable to completely get out! Since its my beat-up hunting rifle it hasn't bothered me much but on my other rifles I don't want this. How do you all keep the fouled water from getting all over the stock? Don't tell me to pull the barrel, ain't going to happen until the end of the year, if then!
Dennis
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Dennis: Rather than a tooth pick get some small bamboo skewers such as those used for cooking strips of possum on the grill. You should find them in the kitchen dept of most major dept stores. Bamboo will not soak up the water like a tooth pick wood does, they are generally more pointed and yet have a larger diameter once you get past the point and they are tougher. Not likely to fracture if you put too much pressure on them and if they do they still tend to hold together so you can easily pull it out. BTW, I'll put a little oil on the point to make it even LESS likely to to soak up water and get soft.
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Rather than a tooth pick get some small bamboo skewers such as those used for cooking strips of possum on the grill. You should find them in the kitchen dept of most major dept stores. Bamboo will not soak up the water like a tooth pick wood does, they are generally more pointed and yet have a larger diameter once you get past the point and they are tougher. Not likely to fracture if you put too much pressure on them and if they do they still tend to hold together so you can easily pull it out. BTW, I'll put a little oil on the point to make it even LESS likely to to soak up water and get soft.
I use the round toothpicks and there is no problem sealing or soaking up the water. I have left one in for close to an hour with no leaks. The problem comes when I jerk the toothpick out and quickly ram the rr/patch down the bore. Until the full pressure gets up in the barrel the vent dribbles and again when the pressure falls off (rr/patch bottoms out) water dribbles down the stock.
Dennis
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Dennis, I was taught the "remove the barrel and flush with water" method by my father back in 1959 and that's what I did until a few years ago. I was trying out some of Dutch Schoultz ideas for using Ballistol. My wife and I had recently moved to the country where I could shoot as often as I like. That's several times a week and doing a complete tear down for cleaning each time was getting burdensome. Anyway Dutch wrote that he got in a hurry one day and swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix followed by a dry patch and then a patch soaked in WD-40. A second WD-40 patch was placed on the jag and run down the bore, leaving the rod in the barrel. He stated that he pulled the rod a day or so later and found some black crud on the patch but no rust. I was more than a little skeptical but decided to try it just once and only overnight. After all, it would greatly simplify my cleaning routine if it worked. I don't think I slept much that night. I jumped out of bed the next morning and removed the ramrod from the barrel. Some black crud on the patch but absolutely no sign of rust. I put the patched rod back down the barrel. I checked again that evening and periodically until I shot that particular gun again a few days later. I've never used any other cleaning technique since.
Now regarding how this relates to your problem of liquids getting to your stock, I remove the lock from the gun and clean it with a toothbrush under hot water from the tap. Blow it dry, spray with WD-40, blow off excess oil and the lock is ready to go back in the stock. But first I stuff one end of a paper towel in the lock mortise, wrap the towel around the barrel so it covers the vent and stuff the other end into the mortise. That way if some of the water/Ballistol mix gets blown out of the vent while swabbing it is soaked up by the paper towel. It's simple and easy. I just pulled the ram rods out of my two smoothbores, one of which was fired three days ago and the other has been sitting for about a month. Not a trace of rust in either bore.
John
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Dennis,
I've had the same problem and have a couple of stocks with man made grain on the comb and/cheek piece. Now I take an old towel or large rag and wrap the stock from the lock down before I pull the plug and blow out the dirty water. Not perfect but pretty close.
Mark
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Anyway Dutch wrote that he got in a hurry one day and swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix followed by a dry patch and then a patch soaked in WD-40. A second WD-40 patch was placed on the jag and run down the bore, leaving the rod in the barrel. He stated that he pulled the rod a day or so later and found some black crud on the patch but no rust. I was more than a little skeptical but decided to try it just once and only overnight. After all, it would greatly simplify my cleaning routine if it worked. I don't think I slept much that night. I jumped out of bed the next morning and removed the ramrod from the barrel. Some black crud on the patch but absolutely no sign of rust. I put the patched rod back down the barrel. I checked again that evening and periodically until I shot that particular gun again a few days later. I've never used any other cleaning technique since.
Now regarding how this relates to your problem of liquids getting to your stock, I remove the lock from the gun and clean it with a toothbrush under hot water from the tap. Blow it dry, spray with WD-40, blow off excess oil and the lock is ready to go back in the stock. But first I stuff one end of a paper towel in the lock mortise, wrap the towel around the barrel so it covers the vent and stuff the other end into the mortise. That way if some of the water/Ballistol mix gets blown out of the vent while swabbing it is soaked up by the paper towel. It's simple and easy. I just pulled the ram rods out of my two smoothbores, one of which was fired three days ago and the other has been sitting for about a month. Not a trace of rust in either bore.
John
Thanks John, I will have to try it. Please describe swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix
are we talking about 1, 2 or 15 or more wet patches to complete this "swabbing"
Dennis
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Dennis,
I've had the same problem and have a couple of stocks with man made grain on the comb and/cheek piece. Now I take an old towel or large rag and wrap the stock from the lock down before I pull the plug and blow out the dirty water. Not perfect but pretty close.
Mark
Guess someone needs to come up with a "rain coat" for a flint rifle ;D
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Dennis, It takes an average of 4 wet patches, 1 dry patch, and two WD-40 patches, the last of which remains in the bore. I say "average" because everything depends on how fouled the bore is in the first place. I keep going with wet patches until the patch comes out a dark grey. Total time to remove and clean lock, clean and oil bore, and put the lock back into place is 10 minutes or so. I don't get the patches with the water/Ballistol mix dripping wet, just wet enough to dissolve the powder fouling. Please note that I'm not sure this technique will work with a percussion gun or one with a patent breech that has a chamber smaller in diameter than the bore. I haven't owned a percussion in quite a few years so I've never tried it. Also, any water soluble oil may work just as well as Ballistol. Again, I don't know because I've never used anything else. If you choose to try this technique let me know how it works for you. I know at first it gave me the heebie jeebies to not have my firearm completely "clean" but never having any rust show up seems to say the technique works.
John
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dennis
I cleaned for years the same as you do complete with stain streaks. no brush to keep with the subject matter. I now pour the water out the muzzle. the squirrel rifle I'm now building may get a coat of bees wax melted into it instead of a varnish. it worked very well on a cva pistol rebuild.
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A squirt of water out the touch hole is common. Yes, you can wrap that area but when forced out it still gets wet, mostly around the lock area. You can minimize it however if you leave the pick in and slowly run a patch down with the patch soaking up much of the water. OR you can turn the rifle on its side, lay a rag under the area and let it squirt. That's the best way to me. I trust a bench stand or rack is used to hold it while cleaning.
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I like to take the barrel out to clean. I have an icecream bucket with a short section of 2x4 with a shallow depression in the center down in the bucket. I put the tang or hook into this depression so it wont damage the plastic bucket. The bucket catches all the runoff and I can pump and force the dirty water out of the barrel with no mess. It works for me and I use room temp water, no brush and WD-40 after I dry.
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OK, I'll offer my visual rational for a brush...after all, it is about to brush or not brush. I also understand that it is impossible to address that issue without some discussion of the entire cleaning process.
The first photo below shows a series of patches. The barrel was cleaned with water two or three times. Then several patches were run down, obviously wet at first then dry. I really don't recall how many I did before I used the patch numbered 1 but maybe only 8 or so but the barrel was dry at that point and showing a not too dirty patch. I then shot a dose of Ballistol down and followed that with a brush, up and down maybe a half dozen times. Patch number 2 is the one that came out following the brushing. You can follow the trail from there and see the trend. #11 was also after a dose of Ballistol and a few brush strokes. Patch #19 was after brushing ONLY (no oil that time). The last one is the point that I stopped for yesterday. I always hit it again a day or two later.
As to the patches not being tight enough, I bulk up the single patch with a .018 shooting patch (un-lubed). It is about all I can do to get it down and out. Sometimes, if I have a pick in the touch hole when pulling it out, there is so much suction in the barrel it will such the patch right off the jag and into the barrel if removed quickly. This happens to be my 50 cal, shown in photo 2 and 3. Those photos show it with a little more shine as I had used a field wipe before the photo and not yet cleaned the oil off.
Of course the question might be did I get the barrel clean enough with the water...I understand that. And I also will turn the patch over to use the other side but wanted to be able to show the trend so only one side used for this.
Pics to follow.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F2r6l6jr.jpg&hash=4c06d36d03e1652ace6997a76f9a40ed3e651da8)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.tinypic.com%2F4hzkuw.jpg&hash=5b199b31a773ae5c0c88978829f9d861c3bb0e85)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F2ezmoug.jpg&hash=fb53062a6b14908aa0755cf6e43360e5764961b9)
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Molly: what material is your cleaning patches? What diameter is your jag?
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Just curious, and would like to poll the board with a simple response...."I do" OR I don't. Don't want to open the entire range of cleaning discussion so here is the question:
Do you use a brush on the bore when cleaning. I do.
Don't.
I had a brush come out of it's crimped end down at the plug end of the barrel. >:(
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DTS:
The photo shows both 2.5 inch and 2 inch round. For the 50 cal I mostly use 2.5 but for this illustration I tossed in some 2 inch patches. Jag is the standard TOW 50 cal. But keep in mind I add bulk with the .018 dry shooting patch.
The question of the diameter or size of the jag is a puzzle. I don't recall ever seeing jags offered by diameter, always by cal....unless I just completely missed it.
I'm also surprised that there have been no more comments following the photo. From the photo there are only two basic conclusions.
1. Brushes help clean.
OR
2. The bore was not sufficiently cleaned with water before dry patch cleaning began.
As to #2, when the water comes out of the bore as clear as it went in how much more water cleaning is needed? I am not trying to sell anyone on the idea of using a brush, BTW.
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Molly,
Thanks for all the effort that went into the cleaning process and the photographic display of the process results. For myself, I have cleaned bores both with brushing and without. I never did the kind of test you did, but I think I will be brushing a lot more now as I cannot see any down side to using a brush and there appears to be a positive up side. I use a brush for all my modern firearms, why not for a muzzle stuffer ?
As for those who are frightened by the thought of a brush coming off the end of the rod and getting stuck in the bore....I have had that happen twice...once in a .50 and the other in a .45. I just cut a piece of thin wall hobby store brass tubing (just small enough in diameter to slide down the bore) and a little longer than the brush and soldered a disk on the back end. I dropped that down the bore and pushed it down over the brush with the ram rod. The brass tube encases the brush and it can then be dumped right out of the bore. I have one of these for each bore size I have, but since I made them, I have never had an occasion to use one again. Saves a lot of swearing and pulling the breech plug.
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Molly: my question was aimed at diameter in inches. If I use a TOW 50 cal jag in a 50 cal rifle, I find I cannot use two thicknesses of FLANNELETTE (diaper material) 'cause it's too tight. So I reduce the diameter about .015" and recut the grooves. Then I can use two thicknesses of cleaning patch and am sure to get to the bottom of the grooves. I tear strips 2" wide and cut them off square for my patches, for a .50 cal rifle.
Here's a tip to remove a brush that has pulled out of the crimped end. Use a tow worm! It will engage the brush with enough friction contact to withdraw it. A steel rod with a handle is recommended, but a wooden one will work too, in a pinch.
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DTS: Sorry, forgot to add the material, which is just the run of the mill cotton purchased at most any retail store. I don't use the "ribbed" material however. I understand the question on the jag now. I don't have the ability to reduce the diameter but actually don't personally feel it's necessary. While I cannot put two patches on the jag either, I can add the small shooting patch which adds bulk to the head but not the length of the jag behind the head. I also use small 22 cal patches to do the same thing on my 40 cal. And in both cases it's all I can do to get it down and out. The tow worm idea is excellent!
Dave: Thanks for the comment and suggestion on removal of a brush should it be necessary. I did have one come off the rod once and after the initial panic attack I fished it out. Tried several approached but did not think of either of those mentioned above. I think in the end I was able to get a length of small cord entangled in the brush and it pulled out but it was only maybe 18 inches from the business end of the bbl.
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Molly - for years, I used my 3/8" electric drill held in my bench vise as a poor man's lathe. It works. I even 'turned' a nipple that used small pistol primers - like the ones from the late 1800's - early 1900's used in competitions and pictured in Ned Robert's book. I used files for turning the steel to the diameters needed for threading. It is interesting on what you can do at home with a minimal of tools, if need be.
Turning jags smaller is such a breeze with a 3/8" or 1/2" drill held in a vice. 1st thing is to cut off the brass threads, centre-drill, tap to 8x32 or 10x32, then insert and CA a steel threaded shaft - the end of a long machine screw. Then, holding the screw in the 'chuck' of the drill (in the bench vice) turn with a fine file until it is the right size for double patch. They really do make a difference in the cleaning of the grooves. Course, with a tight ball/patch combination, there is no buildup, anyway.
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OK.....
Sounds like the object in cutting down the diameter is to be able to get a tighter jag/patch combo? But I already think I get it as tight as possible by using the small unlubed shooting patch under the larger patch. What am I missing?
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I'm solidly in your camp "Candle". Also use one to clean the toilet bowls. Different one of course but nothing works like a brush. I will add however that we brush people are somewhat outnumbered by the no brush people but THEY ALL HAVE DIRTY BORES! yuck!!
You have not seen my bores and I am sure that tow cleans my bore perfectly well for this lifetime. ;)
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Wade: Maybe we should start a discussion entitled:
"Is tow more like a patch OR more like a brush?"
Early on I expressed the personal opinion that tow was more brush like than patch like so I counted your initial response as "a brush"!!
Similar to one person who uses some sort of "cleaning pad" material.
But that's just my opinion.
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I would argue that tow is more like a patch because both are made from natural plant fibers. The orientation and coarseness of tow would be more random, but it's no brush. The fiber is compressed inside the bore same as patches/jag (and there's no need for doubling thicknesses). If tow were arranged such that all the fiber radiated from the longitudinal axis, then I'd think it to be more akin to a brush. Tow is also absorbent like the patch, unlike the brush.
Those plastic scouring pads contain abrasives for finishing metal, I wouldn't put that in my bore.
I'd rather not be counted as a brusher. I loathe brushing a bore, but have done it hundreds of times, and do not ever plan to do it again. But it's your scorecard, count it up however you wish.
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I hear you Wade - I no longer use brushes in my modern guns either. The various chemicals clean the bores perfectly, do it - no brushing necessary.
In our ML's the only chemical required to clean the bore perfectly, is H2O. No brushing necessary.
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Just an observation, if you use tow then you "do" brush.
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Simple way to remove an errant brush? A length of stiff wire with the end turned over to form a hook.
I use a brush. Can never get the borer perfectly clean without. Whether water or water and detergent, etc. I theorise it may be a factor of the lube. Most are oily or waxy and leave a deposit, don't know what the heat and pressure also do to it. H2O based won't clean mine alone, solvent based help along with brushing. Perhaps some lube/fouling deposits react better than others.
If using a brush then helps to give the rod a twist when at the bottom. Then easier to withdraw.
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Ah HA! We "brusher"are gaining strength. But I did agree to take Wade over to the no brush group.
Hammer: That's sort of the way I got the one out which came off the rod. It was a short stiff "hook" lashed and rolled around a wooden range rod. Caused a panic at first but came out pretty easy.
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With all due respect to everyone who has participated, don't
you think 4 pages has pretty well covered a pretty simple subject ?
Mark
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Of course NOT! With almost 3500 members, we still have a lot to hear from. Don't need lengthy comments just a simple yes or no. So, Mark, how about it...do you brush.
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Nope, no brushing in this camp.
Mark
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OK.....
Sounds like the object in cutting down the diameter is to be able to get a tighter jag/patch combo? But I already think I get it as tight as possible by using the small unlubed shooting patch under the larger patch. What am I missing?
I think so- you can have a VERY tight jag and patch, that is so snug on the lands, that you can barely get it down or into the bore, yet it might be loose or not even touching the bottoms of the grooves and certainly not the bottom corners of the groove/land.
Reducing the diameter of the jag to allow enough "Patch" to get to the bottoms & CORNERS of the grooves is very important in getting the fouling out. That is why some of us get super clean bores without having to use a brush. We use a patch with water that does all of the cleaning required.
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Nope no brush. What's TOW?
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TOW is a natural "hemp-like" fiber. Very course in texture. Often used in fire starter kits and common in gun bore cleaning. There are a couple web sites which offer it.
A "worm" is used on the end of the cleaning rod to wind and wrap a wad of the stuff around for cleaning.
If you are familiar with old style brown hemp rope (which may not be made of hemp today) that's what it looks like.
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Thanks for the info Molly.