AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Ky-Flinter on March 08, 2016, 11:07:59 PM
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I may have an opportunity to buy this piece, but I have not seen it in person yet. I only have the 2 pictures. The lock is stamped "US", but the front finial of the trigger guard appears to be more ornate than the military issue guns I have seen. What the heck is it? Any and all opinions welcomed. Thanks.
-Ron
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French lock, british triggerguard and pipes. Cherry stock. I'd say New England in origin. buttplate finial would be really helpful.
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I agree with Mike. French parts coming in large supplies, and surcharging started in 1777, so it would post date that. Nice fimd
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What about the lock being marked US? Does that fit with a local New England maker putting these parts together as a Committee of Safety musket? I am dumb as dirt of these type guns but they sure fascinate me.
The lock is stamped "US"
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When the shipments of French parts started to arrive patriot gunsmiths in Pennsylvania were required to fit up military muskets, and refrain from building rifles, until the musket parts were depleted. Some of these guns are an odd amalgamation of parts spanning many years of musket production.
Hungry Horse
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French lock, british triggerguard and pipes. Cherry stock. I'd say New England in origin. buttplate finial would be really helpful.
What Mike said. Probably a late 18th century American stocked parts gun.
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What about the lock being marked US? Does that fit with a local New England maker putting these parts together as a Committee of Safety musket? I am dumb as dirt of these type guns but they sure fascinate me.
The lock is stamped "US"
This could even be post Rev War. The "US" stamp came after the war to mark US property if I recall. But, I believe this gun would meet all the requirements for a CS musket.
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Hi,
I always thought the stamp "US" was a post Rev war feature but after reading Bill Ahearn's book "Muskets of the Revolution", I am uncertain that is always true. After 1777, many American-made or issued muskets were branded with "U States" and "United States" on the stocks. However, Ahearn mentions a journal entry by a continental soldier mentioning a May 1777 order to have all guns brought to town to be stamped "US". It is not clear if that means the stocks or metal parts.
dave
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Authentic "US" surcharge markings have been seen on a number of Rev. War era muskets especially mid-18th century Brown Bess and Charleville patterns
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I think Mike's assessment is spot on... a very typical NE type musket/fowler, more than likely dating from around 1795-1800 than the Revolution but without examining it closely its really impossible to tell... and may be impossible even with close examination.
I am extremely skeptical of the marking. While it is true that the surcharge was instituted during the Revolution, most muskets were not marked until well after the war when they were in arsenal storage and all (or nearly all) were French pattern military arms suitable for issue to the army. Many had been assembled from assorted parts, especially at the Philadelphia Depot, but virtually all were of the conventional "Charleville" pattern. I do not contend there isn't the odd exception but I'd like to see an iron-clad provenance (like having been in a known collection before the turn of the century) for nearly anything else.
I suspect that 5 out of 6 (or more) surcharges are fakes...
Years ago a good friend, who started collecting in New England in the 30s, told me he'd looked for close to 20 years before seeing his first surcharged musket and it was a conglomeration of French parts. Then, beginning in the early 60s, surcharged muskets started popping up all over the place. The bicentennial engendered a real surge in their "discovery." This was the easiest way for a dealer or collector to give any old gun a "Revolutionary" provenance and is sometimes (as I believe in this case) applied to guns it is completely inappropriate for.
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Thanks everyone for your input. Does the questionable "US" stamping lower the value of the piece? What is a ballpark figure guns like this one go for? Thanks again.
-Ron
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The pictures are not enough for anybody to draw certain conclusions. There were many US surcharged Charlevilles used during the revolution. If this is a 1795 era New England Militia musket using a surplus lock....there is no reason to just assume that the lock and markings are not original. If it is a militia musket from that era.....it will possibly have more markings on barrel.
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Is the forestock being cut back an indication of militia use? I hope to see the piece this afternoon and will look for any other markings.
-Ron
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Is the forestock being cut back an indication of militia use? I hope to see the piece this afternoon and will look for any other markings.
-Ron
Yep, it was stocked that way for bayonet use.
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You can't really see in the photo, but does the front sight double as the bayonet lug like many muskets?
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Thanks everyone for your input. Does the questionable "US" stamping lower the value of the piece? What is a ballpark figure guns like this one go for? Thanks again.
-Ron
I don't have any idea of the value of a gun like this. I don't believe that "US" stamp is going to make any difference on the price.
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In as much as I can tell from the photos, the trigger guard is from a land pattern British musket. The butt plate may be as well but we can't tell from those photos. The combination of a French lock with a British trigger guard, as Mike has noted, makes it virtually certain to be an American assembled product and almost certainly from New England. As to date, even if the marking is kosher, the lock was re-used after the original gun was broken up for parts, making it fairly late in its current form.
It was never a "military issue" gun.
jp
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In as much as I can tell from the photos, the trigger guard is from a land pattern British musket. The butt plate may be as well but we can't tell from those photos. The combination of a French lock with a British trigger guard, as Mike has noted, makes it virtually certain to be an American assembled product and almost certainly from New England. As to date, even if the marking is kosher, the lock was re-used after the original gun was broken up for parts, making it fairly late in its current form.
It was never a "military issue" gun, the property of the United States, and thus would not have been surcharged in its present configuration.
jp
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The gun was auctioned off yesterday for $600. I went and saw it, but didn't buy it. There were no visible stamps or marks on what could be seen of the barrel.
Historian, you asked about the front sight possibly being a bayonet lug. Yes, actually it was more like a bayonet lug that one could use as a front sight.
I did get a few pictures, unfortunately poor quality, but just in case there's any interest, here they are.
The lighter colored oval looked like wood grained adhesive backed vinyl. I have no idea why. What looks like an "S" is were it is starting to peel off.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi140.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr27%2FKyFlinter%2FFlint%2520Fowler%2520Floyds%2520Knobs%2520IN%2520001_zpsk3pampcd.jpg&hash=4c34c48aebdac5f09b94177b4fd7fdbfbd7d73ed)
Mike B. here is the butt plate return.
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Side plate.
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RR entry pipe.
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-Ron
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New England, with a re-used lock from an actual US arsenal musket? I've seen a couple where this was likely the case.
Dan
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I'd have paid that price. Sort of an everyman's gun for militia duty, and still flintlock.
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Interesting mutt that is for certain. Kind of like a street rod. Lots of old parts that don't belong. ;D
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IMO $600 was on the cheap side. That's an english BP by the way, probably french sideplate.
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I'd have paid that in a heartbeat.
jp