AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Frizzen on March 23, 2009, 08:39:26 PM
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Been reading other threads on cleaners and lubes, so I thought I would start a thread so
you could post your favorite lube here. I'll start with mine. I am a only a competition shooter
and not hunting so mine are range lubes . I do think the Teflon could be used for hunting.
In rifle and musket the best I have found is the "Teflon" coated patching. In pistols I have
found water soluble oil to be the best. I use a 5% oil and water mix. This has worked very
well for me for the past 30 years. I always use a ball a couple thousndants over the bore,
and .010 patching in pistols and .022 in rifles. Now lets hear yours.
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How about you just insert "patch lube" into the site search function and hit enter?
This topic has been beat to death so many times, probably half the postings in the shooting forum are about patch lubes.
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Been reading other threads on cleaners and lubes
Natural Lube 1000 patches for all hunting here in North Carolina regardless of what time of year or weather conditions;
Natural Lube 1000 patches during the high humidity months of late spring/summer/early fall lets me shoot range sessions without wiping between shots;
During the dry/low humidity months of late fall & winter I squeeze a couple squirts of Hoppes No9 PLUS BP lube into a bag of NL1000 patches and can continue to shoot without wiping.
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Crisco, DGW's black Solve, Hoppes #9 bp, spit. Have used the various grease preparations form TC, Traditions, CVA, etc., etc. but other than the smell can tell no difference from Crisco. Crisco's cheaper. Use mostly black solve for general shooting and reloads but never for first loads. Use a grease or Hoppes for Hunting & BS for reloads.
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Sorry TOF, I am new here and have not seen it. Mebby I should delete this post then.
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i have only been using it since november but elk tallow with a small amount of crisco has been doing a great job.
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I have been using nothing but Birddog6's patch grease for hunting or his patch lube for bench work for a few years now. It is all I use in my rifles.
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Hawkpooey
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Sorry TOF, I am new here and have not seen it. Mebby I should delete this post then.
Your post is fine...
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I only hunt in the spring and summer months . My favs are those little fellows the french call Tar Gets. I always use a 50/50 mix of Tef and Lon .
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I've switched to Preparation H to shrink my groups!
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Hawkpooey
Is that the straight strength or a 50/50 mix?
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Mink oil, bear grease when I can find it.
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Iron City Beer
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Iron City Beer ?? Is that the "stale, pale ale with the foam on the bottom???
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It's an apt description but, I believe you are referring to "Olde Frothingslosh". It was offered only at Christmastime. Iron City is the best "lube" I have ever tried.
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Frizzen,
Welcome to ALR. Yes there is a search function set up on the board that will allow you to research topics if you like. If you don't like, post you question, as you have done. If folks don't want to read it or respond, they don't have to. You deserve a polite reply.
For the past 20 years I have been using a mixture of about 3 parts bear grease and 1 part beeswax. Most of the time this lube loads without any need for cleaning between shots. However, if there is a long delay between shooting and loading or if it is really dry then I lay the patch on my tongue before oalding. the little bit of saliva helps cut any dry fouling. Everytime I try something else I end up dissapointed and come back to my bear grease and bees wax lube.
I melt the lube in a small tin cup and dip each patch in with a tweezer and stack them up in a piece of aluminum foil. So I am shooting pre-lubed patches.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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Actually, since running out of Lehigh Valley, I've made my own concoction of winter windshield washer(the blue stuff) and dish soap(Dawn). Seems to work fine for range and trail shooting. Cleans up good.
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Thanks to mad monk [see post on Shen V lube]--I have wondered why my latest LVL eats away my stock finish! I now use it mainly as a last cleaning step [after water cleanup] intead of as a lube--a little dab'll do ya. I need to experiment more with lubes, over the years I have used spit, Crisco, LVL, Wonder lube and mink oil. May have to try out that hand cleaner....
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LeHigh Valley Lube, Hoppe's #9 Plus, & Spit, but not all at the same time. I usually use spit in the summer and LHV and Hoppe's in the winter. Just hate it when the patch freezes to the muzzle(with spit).
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Beer as a patch lube? That constitutes alcohol abuse, almost as bad as letting some spill on the ground! :D
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Trappers Mink Oil from TOW,good for any weather.
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;D Been speermintin' wiff de follering. I combine the oil squeezed from a Madagascan Kwanga toad (female only & catching them is the pits!), Himalayan "yama" berries (they only produce once every 5 years). Combine them on the third Tuesday of the month and melt & mix. Take a left hind leg bone from a white cat (NOT while he's alive, Hoss) and bury it on the bank of an east flowing stream under a full moon. Sacrifice a goat to Bangyelzeebub (the God of black powder). The result is a marvelous lube that allows mach 3 velocities with 15 grains of 2f and 1/2" groups at 800 yards with no fouling!
The paranoids have put me on their hit list as i took a blood oath never to reveal this secret lube.
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;D Been speermintin' wiff de follering. I combine the oil squeezed from a Madagascan Kwanga toad (female only & catching them is the pits!), Himalayan "yama" berries (they only produce once every 5 years). Combine them on the third Tuesday of the month and melt & mix. Take a left hind leg bone from a white cat (NOT while he's alive, Hoss) and bury it on the bank of an east flowing stream under a full moon. Sacrifice a goat to Bangyelzeebub (the God of black powder). The result is a marvelous lube that allows mach 3 velocities with 15 grains of 2f and 1/2" groups at 800 yards with no fouling!
The paranoids have put me on their hit list as i took a blood oath never to reveal this secret lube.
;D ;D ;D
LHV lube has been what I've used(bought it based on experiences here), but my only other experiences are with the CVA lube that came in the started kit back in the early 80's. I bought up all the LHV lube I could when I heard they were going out of business. Should last me a while and will probably go with the Hoppes once it's used up.
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The urine of a three year old goat fed only ferns for three days was once considered an excellent quench, heat treating steel. Might be worth a try on patches.
Otherwise, what I would find interesting is stuff that works in our wonderful Michigan winters. Haven't shot in winter yet, used to have more sense & was incapacitated this year. Next winter, inshAllah, I hope to give it a try.
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Lube ::) Hmm - Betternot!! ;)
Serious- Spit/warm bear grease/cold (very)!
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The urine of a three year old goat fed only ferns for three days was once considered an excellent quench, heat treating steel. Might be worth a try on patches.
Just dont' forget and put them in your mouth - spitty, spitty
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C.Cash - my sentiments exactly. For hunting, I'll use Hoppe's 9 Plus or most likely mink oil. When changing lubes, be aware that the point of impact will also most likely change too. This happens less often with 'bore' rifles, ie; 16 and larger, maybe even 20's could be included.
As to accuracy with any lube, one must choose a lube THEN work up a load with it. For expample, in my rifles, spit patched loads shoot to a different point of impact and give different accuracy than the same charge with any other lube. Less powder will shoot well with spit than with one of the oils or greases - has to do with lubricity I'd think. To shoot LHV takes a LOT of powder in my rifles. Less powder shoots well with Hoppe's and less yet for spit. Mink oil, a grease, shoots similar to LHV in point of impact. These point of impact changes are left or right as well as up and down. One must shoot paper to find out what's happening. Changing lubes and not changing loads develops 'also-rans'- and wounded game.
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C.Cash - my sentiments exactly. For hunting, I'll use Hoppe's 9 Plus or most likely mink oil. When changing lubes, be aware that the point of impact will also most likely change too. This happens less often with 'bore' rifles, ie; 16 and larger, maybe even 20's could be included.
As to accuracy with any lube, one must choose a lube THEN work up a load with it. For expample, in my rifles, spit patched loads shoot to a different point of impact and give different accuracy than the same charge with any other lube. Less powder will shoot well with spit than with one of the oils or greases - has to do with lubricity I'd think. To shoot LHV takes a LOT of powder in my rifles. Less powder shoots well with Hoppe's and less yet for spit. Mink oil, a grease, shoots similar to LHV in point of impact. These point of impact changes are left or right as well as up and down. One must shoot paper to find out what's happening. Changing lubes and not changing loads develops 'also-rans'- and wounded game.
Kinda like women I guess, find one that 'works' and stick with her/it! So don't be fixing stuff if it 'ain't' broken! ;D
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:o A lot of good info has been posted on this thread; enough to alter my thinking, a bit. I think I'll stick to what I've been using and try out some of the simple oils & greases recommended. I'll avoid the exotic, the household agents and unfamiliar concoctions. :-\
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KentuckY Jelly in my Kentucky built rifle. ::)
Bill
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:o You are a really baaaaad boy!
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I've wondered it that stuff would work as a patch lube - his or her's - maybe it depends on the rifles? :D Everything under .58 gets her's. ;D
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You guys have just gone where Angels fear to tread! ::)
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:o This here barrel ain't shooting no more. ::) ::)
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I was quite serious about the generic product, guys, not the 'other' stuff. It's VERY slippery, water soluble and would probably work well- could be mixed into a 'cream' or even more liquid using plain water, I think. Never tried, but it has merit as a patch lube for target work.
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8) Water based & water lubes work very well. Don't see why not. Ain't it a mite 'spensive?
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I don't how much it costs - ask LB.
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OK,I'm spooked about the 'soap' think. At work,the millrights use a lube called Start-up lube.It's water based food grade stuff that's very slippery.Will check the MSDS on it Monday. Besides spit and Lehigh Valley,what's the best liquid type to use? KY? Isn't that a petroleum derivative? Be interested to know what mad monk uses. Have access to Tall Oil also but it really stinks. Saponify,gotta look that word up...and what about Dr. Bronner's castile soap?
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I tried Dr. Bronner's in solution as patch lube (peppermint). I don't recall exactly why, but I gave it up. Seems like accuracy was becoming more erratic and loading was getting more difficult with each successive shot.
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Since my goat ran away I've switched to Old Swamp Hunter Co. shooting paste.
Quite unlike WonderLube1000, OSH is slippery & actually appears to lubricate my patches. Kinda nice being able to push the ball all the way down one of these confounded modern shallow groove (0.006", maybe) barrels.
Anyone else have experience w Old Swamp Hunter?
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Question please, what is Sweet Oil?
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Question please, what is Sweet Oil?
Olive Oil, probably has something to do with the old "Pop-Eye" the sailer man series. But I think that's Olive-Oyl?
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Searching for "sweet oil" on google, says it is any of the edible vegetable oils, such as olive oil. Couple'a guys I shoot with swear by canola oil for patch lube, specificly canola and not olive. Haven't used either myself.
I, too, have seen the term "sweet oil" used in some of the older books on muzzle loading rifles. Don't recall just where.
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Searching for "sweet oil" on google, says it is any of the edible vegetable oils, such as olive oil. Couple'a guys I shoot with swear by canola oil for patch lube, specificly canola and not olive. Haven't used either myself.
I, too, have seen the term "sweet oil" used in some of the older books on muzzle loading rifles. Don't recall just where.
Cooling my heels in the local pharmacy waiting for the mixing of my shingles shot I'm looking over the fish oil cranberry etc etc and a do recall seeing a bottle of such sweet oil. So I assume you can buy it in your local drug store. I never used it.
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I use Sinple Green detergent for both a bore cleaner and a patch lube for target and plinking. As for hunting I use olive oil aka sweet oil. There is a fellow at our club who uses Simple Green along with his teflon patching too. BJH
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I used to use bear grease with bees wax but have since switched over to "sweet oil". I have tried canola and it was OK but not what I wanted, so went with what I found out was the traditional sweetoil----olive oil. I am now using the extra virgin olive oil and swear by it. The gun shoots great, is not ofensive to the nose, and cleans up easier than any others I have tried. Once the bore has been "seasoned" from using it, the bore cleans so much faster than any others I have tried and will stick with it. I do some shoots at rendezvous and or hunting and it seems to work well in all the weather conditions I have used it in, including temps well below zero. Tried deer tallow but it seemed to allow fouling sooner than what I considered acceptable.
Todd
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Olive Oil worked exceptionally well, mixed to a fairly soft paste lube using beeswax as the 'heavy'. I used this 'mix' for some REAL bullet tests in the Musketoon - about 20 shots (no leading) & up to 100gr. 2F, then bent back to using .575" and .015" patches, then .562's with .022" patches lubed with Hoppe's 9 Plus - never having to wipe at any time & used up to 120gr. 2F with the patched round balls. I went through a lot of shots that day and the fouling never built in the least, so I figure the olive oil and beeswax was working well with the bullets. An even thinner lube of olive oil/beeswax might be tried for patches come summer. I've still got about 15 + pounds of 'best' quality, once filtered beeswax - smells good enough to eat and my wife buys the Extra Virgin Olive oil for me(to cook with ;D).
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Question please, what is Sweet Oil?
My ole mother use to put sweet oil in us kid's ears when we had an ear ache.
Guess it's just a refined olive oil.
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Used to use spit. Now, use Fantastic.
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For range work Ive been using ballistol diluted 6-1 with good results. For hunting Ive been using
TOW mink oil.
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I have always used one or the other commercial lube. Never wanted to mess around melting beeswax & adding whatever grease or oil, good though it may be.
Now that I've read this thread I realize that the major ingredient in many (all?) commercial lubes is the product of a well-fed bull.
Think I'll try some olive oil.
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Straight Olive oil does work pretty well. I use Birddog6 lube for hunting patches (great product he makes) I have 2 4oz tubs that should last me my life time.
Moose Juice is very slick (I mean slick) with no crud ring with 3F on my 50cal, I shoot and spit patch in between. my .02
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I'm now experimenting with olive oil and windshield washer antifreeze but think I prefer just plain old W.Shiled Washer antifreeze with a bit of soap in it to slippery it up a big and slow the evapouration. Patches lubed the evening before are still dang wet in their tin for the entire next day's shooting, yet if you then leave the lid off, they'll dry out over the next couple days and not rot the cloth as osme oils will.
I shot patches that had been lubed & in the same tin for 8 years, yet they were still sound, if a bit mousy. They'd been lubed with neetsfoot oil if memory serves - smells like it.
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I shot mutton tallow for years, but lost my supplier. Tried WWF with success, but tried an assortment of lubes, including most posted in this thread, in an attempt to find the magic lube. Problem is, I have found several lubes that work well enough, but there is no magic in them.
I have a bottle of real neetsfoot oil and might try that as a replacement for mutton tallow, for hunting. IMHO, beeswax and oil combinations work ok, but I liked mutton tallow better, but I have pretty much settled on spit for targets and informal shooting.
I need to settle on one good lube, instead of trying the latest and greatest newfangled lube seen in the magazines or on the 'net. Some are ok, but most aren't that great. None of them have that "magic."
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Used a mix of -40F WWFluid mixed about 20:1 with Pine Sol (I like the smell) yesterday - went through 3/4 pound of powder - in the 14 bore. never a fouling problem. Also tried straight Neetsfoot Oil with undersized ball 15 bore ball and thin .020" patch ( thumb startable) with 14 bore fibre wad beneath - no burn-throughs and no fouling problems either. Shot a small hole for 5 at 30 yards off the bags and 1 offhand into same hole. Tried at 100 yards and got approximately a 2 foot group - not a good load or system so far but the neetsfoot oil seemed to work.
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Although I've tried many lubes, I've been happy with these (in no particular order): Bore Butter or Ox-Yoke (now Traditions) Wonder Lube, Winchester Sutler's Moose Milk, home-brewed moose milk, and Old Slickum. I'm not certain, but I suspect Old Slickum is very much like Murphy's Oil Soap.
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I strongly advise against any lube concoction containing Murphy's Oil Soap unless you like cleaning the fired on super sticky brown varnish out of the grooves. :o Oh, you say I use MOS and no brown stuff - Tight patch a jag and run it in and out. It's there and that gun ain't clean.
Hint - Carburator cleaner and elbow grease will get it out ;D
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Lynn- Taylor uses Moose Snot with Murphy'sin his Jaeger - no fouling problems and he uses cold water for cleaning - tight, tight, tight patches come out clean after he cleans - flushing water in and out - no solvents. Same goes for his Brown Bess. We've not witnessed the brown goop - perhaps due to the tight ball/patch combinations we use - only difference in loading. Taylor is loading a .595" ball in his .600" bored Jaeger with a .025" denim patch and a .742" WW Ball in the Bess with a .030" patch. The Bess has a .774" bore. this shows he's getting lots of compression in both guns - and no adverse fouling. I can see if there is blowby, there might be a situation with the soap burning and causing the brown goop with a less tight load - although it works in his Jaeger with only .004" compression per side.
I tried moose snot in my .45 but it didn't like it as far as accuracy was concerned. I only did a short test without adjusting powder charges from the LHV I had been using, though but no brown goop. That bore is almost too-shiny inside - right to the corners of the grooves. My compression was about .010" per side to the bottom of the grooves.
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Harnic found the same problem. Maybe we load loose. I'm shooting a .350 ball in a .026 (micrometered) demim patch. GM .36 barrel with .010 grooves.
I tried various lube formulas and found that any with MOS in the mix caused the goop.
The stuff did load easy - unless you changed to spit lube and then you could feel the grabbing resistance while pushing down the load. That's what got me looking to see if the barrel was really clean. Really tight patched jags proved it wasn't even though a bore light showed a bright and shiney bore and breech plug.
BTW - I made me up a flush clean gizmo to pump the tap water in and out till clean.
Too much work to get it out - Never Again.
Your mileage may vary ;D................................Lynn
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Daryl,
I got to thinking ;) ( dangerous ) and that .350 ball with .026 per side patch equals a .402 load going down the .380 groove dia.. It takes a good smack on the starter to load it. That's .011 per side compression - pretty tight.
I guess if I went to .355 ball that would add another .0025 per side compression.
I don't know if the lube acts the same in a smoothbore as I've not tried it.
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I am mostly a hunter, not a target shooter. I have used several of the lubes recommended by various folks on here including diluted BAllistol which is generally what I use at the range until I am ready to test a hunting load. Hunting loads are .535 ball with .016 - .018 patches over 90 gr of Swiss FFg lubed with SPG simply rubbed into the outside surface of the patching strip, cut at the muzzle. Patches survive firing very well and loading isn't difficult although reasonable snug. Accuracy is better than me.
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I think I'm falling into Lynn's camp on the MOS isue. I recently started using a v diluted MOS solution for my patches and can report that it makes loading a relative breeze. But I have been wondering about the lingering color in the barrel. Might be time to move on
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Definitely a snug load, Lynn. Harry reported the same brown fouling in the grooves - I didn't see it, nor did Taylor, in rifle or smoothbore. We've moved on as well - although I still have a small tub of it, mixed thin enough to be OK for winter shooting. I'm still working on getting some Hoppe's 9 Plus - that works well in all my guns, cold (freezing) or hot weather, hunting or target shooting. I've ordered 2 quarts of it - still waiting. Talked to the Sales rep at the store the other day & he thought it was a new product, not into Canada yet - good grief, we've been using Hoppe's 9 Plus since mid 1970's. Some distributors are narrow minded.
While waiting for the Hoppe's to come in, I'm using winter, windshield fluid with a couple squirts of body soap in it. Works well and stays very wet for 2 to 3 days in my hinged patch containers. Nice thing about the windshield washer fluid, is it's cheap abnd easy to apply and doesn't rot the patches.
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I seem to remember posting it before, but it's worth repeating, given the performance: Permatex orange hand cleaner. Non-pumice "creamy", of course. Cheap, easy to find, near zero ramming force shot after shot, and it cleans your rifle as you shoot. You can also use it as a hand cleaner. ;D I put a pea-sized dollop in the middle of a patch, fold it in half, unfold it, and down the barrel (or into the block) it goes.
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BTW Daryl - It was you that got me to use the tighter loads with a short starter and it has helped the accuracy ;)
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Harnic found the same problem. Maybe we load loose. I'm shooting a .350 ball in a .026 (micrometered) demim patch. GM .36 barrel with .010 grooves.
I tried various lube formulas and found that any with MOS in the mix caused the goop.
The stuff did load easy - unless you changed to spit lube and then you could feel the grabbing resistance while pushing down the load. That's what got me looking to see if the barrel was really clean. Really tight patched jags proved it wasn't even though a bore light showed a bright and shiney bore and breech plug.
BTW - I made me up a flush clean gizmo to pump the tap water in and out till clean.
Too much work to get it out - Never Again.
Your mileage may vary ;D................................Lynn
Beware the Murphy's Oil Soap. Works fine for a while then the flyers start... :o
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I seem to remember posting it before, but it's worth repeating, given the performance: Permatex orange hand cleaner. Non-pumice "creamy", of course. Cheap, easy to find, near zero ramming force shot after shot, and it cleans your rifle as you shoot. You can also use it as a hand cleaner. ;D I put a pea-sized dollop in the middle of a patch, fold it in half, unfold it, and down the barrel (or into the block) it goes.
I'd be interested in hearing more about Permatex and whether it shares the same problems with Murphy's soap. Problems down the line are a concern.
Daryl, window washer cleaner? What types & such are worth trying. Hoppes #9 Plus is good stuff.
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I use spit at tha range and wonderlube for hunting. Ed
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Spit for targets - Don't hunt much, guess I'd use crisco.....Cheap ;D......Lynn
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Flintr - winshield washer fluid is what I've been using - perhaps I had a typo and typed in window.
I'm using up the left-over (2 gallons) winter fluid I had. It doens't go bad as long as the cap is on. I assume it has a lot of alcohol in it is why to keep the lid on. Doesn't really go bad. In the summer, I use the bug washer fluid- haven't used that as a patch lube - might some day, but not if I can get more Hoppe's 9 Plus. I've heard of guys using Windex and other brands for patch lube. One guy in the club soaked his patches in brandy - rotted his bore very nicely - think he did that while bunny hunting - a no-no without the brandy. Any water soluable is suspect for hunting.
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Daryl I believe I bought my three quarts of Hoppes No. 9 Plus on-line direct from www.hoppes.com Delivery OK.
Like how it cleans, have yet to use it for a patch lube. For what its worth, I have been told "there is water in it" by an ex-sportswriter who normally seems to know his stuff. I suppose that and $1.75 would get me a cup of Tim H's finest coffee.
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Shipping the bottles over the line is the problem with buying it from the States. As to having water in it, I dont' know. Taylor's tests last spring showed it to handle fairly long term loading without any rusting or etching of the barrel.
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After reading your replies, I guess I'll forego the Murphy's Oil Soap patch lube experiment!
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Oh the stuff loaded slicker than owl S...
Used several different formulas with MOS in it
But after a few range sessions I noticed the buildup
Gun was thoughly cleaned with the flush method.
When drying with patched jag the stickyness would near pull the patch off and leave brown streaks on it.
Carburator cleaner and lots of elbow grease. ;)
Not what I call easy cleanup.............................Lynn