AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: hatman on May 25, 2016, 08:58:24 PM
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New poster here.
I've recently become smitten with flintlocks and since January I've purchased 3 custom rifles with my most prized a Ron Luckenbill beauty.
Being a history buff, and living in the PNW I'm interested in getting a rifle that closely matches a Lewis and Clark flintlock.
Although not without controversy the 1803 Harpers Ferry seems to be a reasonable facsimile.
I'm looking online at a Dixie Gun Works 1803 (which I believe is made by EuroArms).
I've tried researching the quality of Euroarms flintlocks but I'm coming up with almost nothing.
I'm reluctant to purchase without some idea of their reputation.
Is anyone familiar with EuroArms?
Thanks.
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I wouldn't buy one.
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I wouldn't either. Percussion maybe, but not their flintlocks.
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OK guys, I appreciate that feedback.
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Hatman how about this one?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/603/1/KIT-US-1803
or this?
http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/rifles/1803HarpersFerry.html
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Thanks crawdad, but I'm not interested in a kit. I have neither the skill nor the time.
Looks like great parts, though.
My Luckenbill rifle has a swamped Colerain barrel.
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Thanks crawdad, but I'm not interested in a kit. I have neither the skill nor the time.
Looks like great parts, though.
My Luckenbill rifle has a swamped Colerain barrel.
I hear ya Brother.
I'm in the same boat.
I'm not familiar with that maker.
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Check out Neil Keyes in Blanchard Oklahoma. His bio and contact information can be found on the CLA site. Bill
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Here ya go!
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0)
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Moot point anyway. There is much controversy over which gun L&C carried. Many doubt the 1803 1/2 stock existed in time for the journey. Many believe a fullstock model was carried, much like the earlier Indian wars contract rifle.
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One just needs to needs to read the journals and decide for them selves on which firearm was taken on the expedition. Here are just two of the many "short rifle" quotes penned by Capt. Lewis.
April 12th 1806... While portaging the Great Falls...
"We caused all the men who had short rifles to carry them, in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any attempts to rob or injure them"
August 11th 1806... On the accidental shooting of Lewis by Cruzat
" The ball had lodged in my breeches which I knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had",
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I'm not a big fan of any of the Italian flintlocks as it seems like their parts are usually just hardened on the surface. They might work well when new (or maybe not) but when the surface hardening wears they can be a lot of trouble to get working properly. I've seen a few of these where the lock was replaced rather than tinkering with the old one. Also the repo 1803's seem to be kind of clunky compared to the originals. If I wanted one I would definitely have one that was built like an original. The one that Mike T has for sale looks nice....
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I agree with Longknife about the Corps of Discovery using specifically “short rifles”. The military part of the Corps also had muskets as documented in the journals.
It is true that the fully developed Harpers Ferry 1803 rifle was not developed until December, 1803 at the earliest, well documented in the correspondence of the day. Lewis had his rifles shipped west in the summer of 1803, so they weren’t fully developed HF 1803’s. However the govt ordered 4000 of that first 33” barrel rendition, and ultimately paid for 4015. The rifle that Ernie Cowan dissected (found in a Saint Louis antique shop many years ago in percussion with patch box inlet covered with a scab of wood and serial number 15 on the barrel) has all the earmarks of a prototype HF 1803 rifle with distinct differences from the post-December, 1803 production.
The argument that Lewis took 15 gun slings from Harpers Ferry for his supposed “full stocked contract rifles” ignores the fact that he would have wanted replacement slings for the muskets that also accompanied the expedition.
I believe the 15 short rifles prominently mentioned in the L and C journals were the 15 prototypes made by HF as they were developing the “Model 1803 Rifle”, were the extra 15 paid for above and beyond the 4000 fully developed 1803’s, and that one has been found and well documented by Ernie Cowan.
The Lewis air rifle has also been located and well documented and identified. Fun history!
Bill Paton
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I got no dog in this fight, just reporting what I have heard. I do know I got paid to build a pot full of full stocked L&C guns for the Bicentennial. Looked just like the 1792 contract rifle with an 1803 lock and patchbox.
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Bill
I can't find anywhere that it says there were 15 short rifles. Want to send me a copy of that quote?
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Here ya go!
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0)
Thanks Longknife.
I really like the looks of that one.
Unfortunately it's a tad bit above my price point.
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I have one of Mike's 1792 contract rifles.
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The thing is and what I'm looking at is Hatman has 3 custom rifles and now wants a Euroarms. You usually start with an Euroarms, learning the ins and outs of firing a substandard lock then move up to a custom. Go buy one but it won't be in the same league as those customs.
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You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy. The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.
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The thing is and what I'm looking at is Hatman has 3 custom rifles and now wants a Euroarms. You usually start with an Euroarms, learning the ins and outs of firing a substandard lock then move up to a custom. Go buy one but it won't be in the same league as those customs.
You're right crawdad, it really is backwards.
However, it's not that I was wanting a Euroarms rifle, but I would like someday to have a Lewis and Clark-like rifle.
If Euroarms had a reputation for quality I might have taken the chance for a price that was a 1/3 of what I paid for my customs.
Doesn't appear that to be the case so I'm back looking for a quality L and C for a decent price.
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You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy. The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.
OUCHKABIBBLE! :'(
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hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?
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hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?
That went right over my head.....I must be "Euro-trash"...sure wish I knew what that was, might be something to be proud of. ;D So, who are you with your big ten posts? I love it when guys sling mud but are to afraid to use their name on screen. ::)
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You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy. The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.
I've been looking for a type 1 HF rifle in orig. flint for some time and every time one comes to auction some one else wants it was worse than me!!!!
hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?
That went right over my head.....I must be "Euro-trash"...sure wish I knew what that was, might be something to be proud of. ;D So, who are you with your big ten posts? I love it when guys sling mud but are to afraid to use their name on screen. ::)
Mike , I just ignore the useless remarks.....
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Went to Euroarms website to see what their interpretation looks like. Wrong barrel length.Wrong lock style,closer to the post 1814 model. Stock architecture is bad. Shape of buttplate and trigger guard is off. What more would you like to know?
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oohhhh, seems I touched a nerve. Mr. Brooks, my name and location are included in my profile.
My response was meant to interject some levity in the discussion, and possibly encourage those that
cannot currently afford to buy one of the fine quality products that you and other craftsmen and craftswomen
here produce.
I have only ten posts, that's correct. I do much more reading and studying new and archived posts than I do writing what Longknife calls "useless remarks".
You wont see many post from me unless I feel that is a contribution. I have too much respect for the fine folks here to
blather.
My respects to all contributors.
Paul Clayton (yes I am OldSchool)
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What bothers me is that you assume that by me telling this guy not to buy a euro arms 1803 because it's a piece of junk he'll decide to buy one of mine instead ::) I and the others here were trying to help this guy not make a big mistake. You on the other hand assumed we had our own best interests in mind and then had to inject some sort of "witty" response that insulted those that were honestly trying to help. Nice tenth contribution to the forum, very helpful.
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I had a Hatfield flinter then I bought a Nate McKenzie custom flinter, world's apart and a lot of unnecessary pain for far too long.
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What bothers me is that you assume that by me telling this guy not to buy a euro arms 1803 because it's a piece of junk he'll decide to buy one of mine instead ::) I and the others here were trying to help this guy not make a big mistake. You on the other hand assumed we had our own best interests in mind and then had to inject some sort of "witty" response that insulted those that were honestly trying to help. Nice tenth contribution to the forum, very helpful.
Well I do appreciate your opinion as well as others here.
I passed on the rifle and watched someone else buy it for $820.
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Good pass!
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Holy smokes, $820 dollars!!!!!!
I was thinking around 200 or 300 hundred dollars at the most. No inexpensive options.
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Holy smokes, $820 dollars!!!!!!
I was thinking around 200 or 300 hundred dollars at the most. No inexpensive options.
OK, feel even better now. ;D
Regarding inexpensive options, how do you (and others perhaps) feel about Lyman flintlocks?
I'm asking because after I bought my 3rd custom (the Hawken), I bought my two black powder range buddies each a Lyman .54 cal great plains flintlock (1/60 twist) last month.
I had read a lot of positive things about Lyman and so far they have had great success with them both reliability and accuracy-wise.
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The majority of people I hunt with have Lyman GPRs, they love em.
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Good to know.
Thank you.
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I knew guys back in the 80's that were shooting Lyman caplocks. They were good guns back then, I have no idea about the current production.
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The Lyman GPR is made by InvestArms. It and the InvestArms Hawken are one in the same with minor hardware and cosmetic differences. With the Hawken, you don't pay for the Lyman name so it's quite a bit cheaper.
I built both my sons one from InvestArms kits almost 20 years ago. I think I used a TC Hawken T guard on this one and straightened the curl out.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FMLMB%2FScott3.jpg&hash=50422c2a41e39abf638eba92d2ef26f1a38b5d5f)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FMLMB%2FScott4.jpg&hash=f2298a7d6c5d09c3c8ca8d7f4cb5ef72f55eccca)
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I have a Pedersoli Harpers Ferry flint pistol. Other than being the wrong caliber and eating flints, it is a $#*! of a lot of fun to shoot. It has no back sight, so hitting something (in particular) is sort of optional, but lots of noise, smoke and fire. Also, if you forget the powder charge, no problem. Just pour it in through the flash hole. I would not stand close on the right side while the pistol is fired, however. I have probably fired it a few hundred times over the years, so cannot speak to long term reliability.
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I have a Pedersoli Harpers Ferry flint pistol. Other than being the wrong caliber and eating flints, it is a $#*! of a lot of fun to shoot. It has no back sight, so hitting something (in particular) is sort of optional, but lots of noise, smoke and fire. Also, if you forget the powder charge, no problem. Just pour it in through the flash hole. I would not stand close on the right side while the pistol is fired, however. I have probably fired it a few hundred times over the years, so cannot speak to long term reliability.
My introduction to flintlocks was when I picked up a Pedersoli Kentucky pistol last December.
I've probably shot a hundred rounds and no complaints.
And I agree it's all about having fun.
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I have a Pedersoli Harper's Ferry pistol that I assembled from a "kit". I quote it because it was very easy to complete but still fun. It is indeed a nice quality little gun even if not perfect. You may want to consider it. I bought mine from Dixie Gun Works....Mick
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I have a Pedersoli Harper's Ferry pistol that I assembled from a "kit". I quote it because it was very easy to complete but still fun. It is indeed a nice quality little gun even if not perfect. You may want to consider it. I bought mine from Dixie Gun Works....Mick
Thanks Mick.
I have been considering the HF pistol.
I just haven't figured out how you can get get consistent accuracy with only a front sight.
In addition to paper targets at 25yds we like to shoot 2 liter pop bottles and gal milk jugs at the 50 yd berm.
(Tie the bottle with a piece of twine to a stake and drive it into the berm) :)
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Regarding Lewis & Clark using the 1803, I found this in the archive from the gun museum up at Cody.....
"The Model 1803 was the first military rifle manufactured at an United States government armory. Lewis and Clark were possibly equipped with prototypes of this model, but production of the standard form shown here did not commence until the spring of 1804 due to difficulties in barrel manufacture, too late for use by Lewis and Clark, who started their expedition in 1804.
However, it is quite possible that the standard M1803 rifles were used by the Zebulon Pike expedition of 1806. The rifle pictured above has a .54 caliber 33″ barrel, the length of which was increased to 36″ on rifles manufactured after 1807."
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I own a Euroarms rifle. It's not the Harpers Ferry rifle, in fact it's hard to say what it is, it's not a plains rifle, and definitely not a longrifle. It's not HC, or PC, shoots decent though. I paid $119 for it from a well known publication, it was worth every penny, in todays money!
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Here ya go!
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0)
Check is in the mail!
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GOOD MOVE!!!!!, You will be happy with that one for sure!.....
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Mike's 1803 Harper's Ferry arrived and I couldn't be happier.
She's beautiful and she's a shooter.
William and Meriwether are smiling down on me. :)
Thanks Longknife and Mike T!