AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: tddeangelo on August 17, 2016, 02:27:02 PM
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Working on casting some 0.600 balls, and I've heated the mold on the pot (corner in the melt till it comes out clean), and assumed the first few likely would still wrinkle a bit till the cavities really got warmed up, but even if I'm moving pretty fast (I think so, anyway), I'd say 90% of them have some sort of discernible wrinkle (some are very faint), and I reject about 2/3 to go back to be remelted to "try again".
I'm pouring with a Lyman dipper, not a bottom pour pot. I have the Lyman pot at about 3/4 max temp on the adjustment dial.
Wondering if I need to up the temp in the pot?
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Its been awhile since I cast many balls that had wrinkles but it seems to me that if they wrinkled after the molds got up to proper heat that I added tin to the mix to cure the problem.
That was using wheel weight lead, if you are using pure lead I am not sure what would cause the problem except the heat being too low.
Dennis
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That's a reliable indicator of too low a furnace and mould temperature and/or a oil contaminated mould cavity. A third, but less likely possibility is zinc contaminated lead, but I'm not banking on it. I had the very same problem when casting pure lead RB's and conicals until I upped the temperature to 800 deg. F.* Using a casting thermometer is a great help in getting the temperature right and eliminating the problem you spoke of.
* My Lee 10 lb. [electric] furnace thermostat needed a minor adjustment, but without a thermometer, I wouldn't have known it. The thermometer really reduced the frustration and reject rate I'm happy to say
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I have one of those Lyman dippers with a little spout the lead goes through, I ran a drill bit through mine to clean up the casting a little and open it up a tad. The lead comes out a little faster now and I think it fills the bigger cavity molds a little faster which might help.
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It sounds to me like your temp needs to be increased :-\.
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I also suspect your temp may be too low and agree with "MAVEN" that a thermometer is a good investment.
I myself was casting on a real hot day about 96 in the shade and my "pot" was about 100deg. low from the last time I used it , about a week early, when the outside temp about 25deg cooler. the thermometer told the truth. just dialed it up and problem fixed.
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Fella looking for success casting pure lead needs 800* in the pot. 30:1 will run smoothly at 775* and the more confused the alloy the lower the temp.....usually....depending.... I cook the rough equivalent of Lyman #2 at 675-700*.
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Another thing to consider is the size of the hole in the sprue cutter. They can be a tad too small for large calibre molds. Doesn't let the molten lead into the mold quickly enough. You might try opening it up just a little with a hand-held drill bit.
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Another thing to consider is the size of the hole in the sprue cutter. They can be a tad too small for large calibre molds. Doesn't let the molten lead into the mold quickly enough. You might try opening it up just a little with a hand-held drill bit.
I wondered about that. The sprues are very small. I never thought to drill out those holes, but that's a good idea.
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Another suggestion -- the drill bit will work but a countersink will give a sharp edge to the bottom of the plate and help cut the sprue - just stone off any burrs on the bottom of the plate or you will scar the top surface of the mold. ;)
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That's a good idea, but I don't have any countersinks on hand at this point. I'll just bore out the sprue openings and the pour spout on the ladle, and up the temp of the melt a bit and see how it goes.
I've been putting off a thermometer, but I guess it's time.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll see how it goes! :)
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All suggestions are good, have used them all in sixty plus years of casting. Couple I will add, clean the cavity and check the venting. I recall reading when all else fails kick the dog and slam the front door (not really suggesting that) some molds just like to make life difficult. Good luck.
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I'll run a batch maybe this weekend and see how it goes!
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Ran some lead through the mold today.
I bored out the sprue holes and the hole in the dipper. I also kept the pot on the highest setting to keep the lead hotter.
Till had maybe 1/3 with either faint wrinkles or some speckling (like small voids) on the surface, but the majority were either totally smooth or had such faint wrinkles that I wasn't gonna remelt them.
The occasional wrinkly one I think may have happened when I had one of the balls stick (two cavity mold) and it took some convincing to come out. I'm guessing the mold being open and in "cold" air for a time cooled it off fairly quickly.
I've thought about just using one cavity only and not filling both. I've read before that some will do that to avoid inconsistency (in the situation where one cavity throws a slightly larger/smaller ball than the other). Would probably let me cast faster and keep the cavity temp from changing so much, too.
But overall, a vast improvement.
Gonna keep at it....really anxious to kill a deer this year with balls I made myself! :)
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Smoke the mold with soot. Use a candle or propane/ map gas torch with the air inlets closed with tape.
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I sure do dislike double cavity molds. Seems as though some lead will find its way into the second cavity when I pour the first and then the second ball will be poured on a solidified little blob in the bottom of the second cavity and hardly ever turns out to be a good ball unless you cast at a real high temp.
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Love DC moulds - or singles and also like my 4-cavity moulds. I do not like 6 cavity moulds of iron - too bloody heavy.
I suspect lackof enough heat, and/or oil leeching from the pores in the mould are the problem. I like to cast enough balls to do for a couple sessions - and I rarely get wrinkles on the first 1 to 3. I preheat the mould, BUT- I degrease the blocks with HOT water and an old toothbrush and strong soap or degreasing agent like COMET!
The balls, if cast with dead soft lead, should shine like jewels.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2F003-1_zps527736e0.jpg&hash=142415a9d222c22985f9ad4bc45b17fcf9474bf0) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/003-1_zps527736e0.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2FP4192095.jpg&hash=a3183b1bb67c1503addfe07653144831b2268f61) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/P4192095.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2FWW715balls-about6lbs_zpsf54c37d8.jpg&hash=ae05c7b1efebab0c17170acdbec6b4cd7aad8fa5) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/WW715balls-about6lbs_zpsf54c37d8.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2F001-1_zpsf9909d0b.jpg&hash=4cdd577a5945aa349673af1e99a737e20f812cb3) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/001-1_zpsf9909d0b.jpg.html)
These bullets are cast from clamp-on or crimp-on WW's. I cast these so they are evenly frosted all over- resulting in perfect bullets.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FCast%2520Balls%2520and%2520Bullets%2FBlackPowder45calbullets_zps1f973bed.jpg&hash=f79126152be2618dfb1e083fd2727d15979ebf87) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Cast%20Balls%20and%20Bullets/BlackPowder45calbullets_zps1f973bed.jpg.html)
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Instead of throwing them back in the pot try shooting a few. You might be surprised. The tests that I have done on less than perfect balls show that wrinkles make very little if any discernable difference on the target, at least out to about 75 yards, which is about as far as I can shoot accurately with iron sights. If they weigh within a grain or two of a perfect ball they will shoot the same.
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I weighed a dozen or so and found something like a 4-5 grain variance (0.600 balls), with most landing in a 2-3 grain range.
They are shiny little spherical mirrors when they're first out of the mold. After a few days, they do dull as they oxidize. I have to look for lines on these, for the most part. On the first run, they were pretty rough in some spots. Some looked like layers of playdoh, lol.
Now they look much better. I should probably clean the mold better, and re-smoke it, and try again, but more heat and the sprue holes bored out seems to have helped a lot.
I did some casting last summer with a bottom pour pot, and not to start THAT debate up, but I like the ladle better. I feel more capable of controlling the flow of the lead, and it seems to make much less of a sprue to cut, too. I tip everything sideways so no lead is coming out of the ladle spout, fit it to the sprue cutter hole tightly, then turn the whole works upright to fill the cavity. Tip it back, disengage, and repeat for the 2nd cavity.
I think I'm going to try just casting on cavity and see how that goes. I picked up the mold when I was at Dixon's at some point (I live dangerously close to that place), since it was there, and I figured I'd get it while the getting was good.
Maybe I'll experiment with balls from one cavity only, and try two different batches, one off one cavity and one run off the other. See if there's any difference in consistency/weight/diameter....and I'm thinking the cavity will stay heated better if I just use one cavity to cast rather than using both.
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I usually cut a groove between the two holes of a DC Lyman, RCBS or Ohaus mould. That way, I pour from the ladle into the middle filling both cavities at the same time. They fill perfectly, every one of them - if your lead and mould are the correct temperature.
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With a gang mold I use a bottom pour pot. Having a bit of lead splash in the the next cavity is never and issue because they all get filled in a few seconds. Filling slowly will promote wrinkles. Once the bullet mold support is set up right, you can go down the line of cavities in a couple of seconds. I normally make 500+ bullets in a casting session with my Lee gang molds and bottom pour pots. The equipment can work.
I see "Marvel Flux" in a picture above. That stuff will rot your melting pot. Notice all the rust on the pot in the picture. I have thrown away Lee bottom pour pots away due to the main container rusting through because of Marvel Flux.
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Daryl, how wide and deep do you cut that grove in the spru plate? It sounds like a good idea if the lead is hot enough.
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I had $65 Cabelas points so I sprung for the 20 pound Lee pot. Ran 86 .50 ball yesterday and I am quite pleased.
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I've cast a lot of balls & bullets using a dipper and iron pot. But for the past 45 years or so have used mostly Lee bottom pour pots. I like double cavity molds and a couple of 4 cavity Saeco molds I bought many decades ago. Of the two Lee bp pots I own one has been sent back to lee for refurbishing; it came back looking just like a new pot. They have cast so many balls/bullets that they both are again fairly ratty looking.
At times I get balls with discernible wrinkles but only throw back the ones obviously bad. I'm not a great shot but the lightly wrinkled ones shoot as well as the pristine ones up to about 100 yards. This would not work for match shooters but are quite satisfactory for hunting, plinking and casual target work.
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I cast up about 75 or so today, and had maybe 8 or 9 rejects. No more than a dozen total.
I used just one cavity and found I could move pretty quickly, really. The balls look great.
The sprues on some look sort of torn/smeared. Was I too quick to cut the sprue?
Other than that, they look pretty good.
I have a little over 100 balls now for my 62-cal rifle, which is fantastic. 100ct of 0.600" balls cost about $40 off the shelf.
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The sprues on some look sort of torn/smeared. Was I too quick to cut the sprue?
Possibly.
Make sure that the tension on the sprue plate is snug and wait for the sprue to get "frosty" before you cut it.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Daryl, how wide and deep do you cut that grove in the spru plate? It sounds like a good idea if the lead is hot enough.
The groove depth is about 1/2 the thickness of the plate. the lead must be hotter than if you are pressure filling or the mould will not fill properly. This is quite easy to do with an adjustable heat measure.
Dipping gives ME much better bullets than bottom pouring and there is no problem with dripping - that is aggravating!
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I'll put in another note here, after reading some posts. I leave my sprue plate loose. When I push it aside with my gloved hand, I push down and cut the sprue- for perfect sprues. No lumps, humps or other problems. I also get NO lead on the surface of the mould or underside of the sprue plate.
With pure lead, there is no frost - which usually denotes antimony content. Of course when casting conicals or hard balls, the 'frosting' appearance applies.
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Ya'll ever use the hand held laser thermometers ?
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Daryl brings up an interesting point re the tension on the sprue plate. I have found out the hard way that too snug a tension on my aluminum molds quickly resulted in a bit of galling of the mold surface under the sprue plate. It seems that the aluminum molds and the steel sprue plates tighten as they heat. Lubing the pivot helps but does not eliminate the tendencyy to gall the mold surface. My iron molds do not display this tendency. Just a thought and word of caution.
J.B.
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Daryl brings up an interesting point re the tension on the sprue plate. I have found out the hard way that too snug a tension on my aluminum molds quickly resulted in a bit of galling of the mold surface under the sprue plate. It seems that the aluminum molds and the steel sprue plates tighten as they heat. Lubing the pivot helps but does not eliminate the tendencyy to gall the mold surface. My iron molds do not display this tendency. Just a thought and word of caution.
J.B.
Wrinkles usually indicate a cold mould.I have never had the problem with a HOT mould.
I marketed a sprue cutter for Lyman moulds several years ago made from 1/4" 1018
or 0-1 and reports indicated these thicker plates added heat to the already hot mould and increased
the weight of the bullet by several grains. How it would work with a ball I have no idea. I am not
making these cutters any more but anyone with a few tools can make them.
Bob Roller
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Daryl brings up an interesting point re the tension on the sprue plate. I have found out the hard way that too snug a tension on my aluminum molds quickly resulted in a bit of galling of the mold surface under the sprue plate. It seems that the aluminum molds and the steel sprue plates tighten as they heat. Lubing the pivot helps but does not eliminate the tendencyy to gall the mold surface. My iron molds do not display this tendency. Just a thought and word of caution.
J.B.
The different expansion ratios of the aluminum bodies as opposed to the steel sprue plate is the jist of the galling problem with Lee moulds.
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Yep, that's her!
J.B.
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Just by way of update....
Ran a short casting session last night. Used both cavities, and results were 16 rejects for 54 keepers.
Of the rejects, a few were my own fault for not having enough lead in the dipper and leaving voids.
Some I just didn't like. Can't explain it, but I didn't want to keep them. I am being very picky now and still keeping a good percentage compared to my start. So that's progress.
I'm indeed using a Lee mold, and the sprue plate wants to come loose as I cast. I tighten it again simply because I'm left handed, and i feel better pouring lead with my left hand. I tip the mold inward with my right hand to mate the dipper spout to the countersink on the sprue plate. Then I tip them together back to vertical. This stops lead from dripping everywhere and seems to work pretty well, but with the mold being tipped to it's left, if the plate doesn't have some tension, it'll swing open from gravity. I have to keep at least some tension on that screw so it doesn't do that.
I gave it a tad longer (5 count) before cutting and the sprues look better.
So things are going well.
The balls are shiny and mirror-like when done. When they are a few days old and oxidized, whatever flaws I saw when freshly cast are invisible. They look as good, or better, than the ones I'd bought prior to getting tooled up to cast.
The proof is in the shooting, so we'll see how that goes here shortly. I have a couple hundred now, so I'm gonna start flinging 'em and see what we get. :)
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I keep the balls with the light wrinkles. After pulling a few balls at the muzzle and seeing what the patching and rifling do to a ball, light wrinkles aren't much of a problem as long as the ball base is reasonably smooth. Any light wrinkles are squished out by the patching. The weave pattern of the material covers the wrinkles.
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Each to his own.
I no longer tip the moulds for filling as described above. I pour the lead into the sprue hole as noted and get perfect balls or bullets with perfect sprue cuts and mould fillouts. Wrinkles are from mould being too cold and/or lead too cold. SOMETHING is too cold - or if there are oil or oil-like molecules in the pores of the blocks, pivots, alignment bars or pegs, the mould will cast wrinkled projectiles until the contaminant is either removed or burnt off so it's vapors cannot spoil the casting. Bringing the mould and lead up to the proper temperature is also vital.
A great to remove this oil or other contaminant is to hold the mould blocks under running hot water to heat them, then remove from the water and scrub with an old toothbrush and comet cleanser then rinse off the comet. This will remove the oil.
I spray my moulds with WD40 after using - then do the comet routine before casting again. Works for me & has been for 40 years. It's nice to have perfect balls & bullets.