AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Bluesmoke on December 14, 2016, 02:42:58 AM
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I am seeing daisy cut round ball patches advertised on an internet muzzle loading retailing site. Being well away (Australia) from places where these new patches may be easy to get, its prudent to investigate if they are truly effective. Of course,on the retail site, there are the usual recommendations by happy customers etc, but being cautious I am inclined to seek a wider range of opinions.
Obviously the plus is that the patches cut in the fashion of a daisy, fold up much easier when the ball is forced down the muzzle and therefore would produce fewer pressure points against the wall of the barrel. In turn that must equate to much less friction, a good thing.
On the negative it means I can't make my own with out a specific shaped cutting punch and must rely on importing regular supplies on these patches from your country.Stated thickness sizing seems to be unreliable as well.
Given that I will probably may shoot 2500 balls in the coming year it a fairly big commitment to make on the basis of scant information.
The question is the change from standard patches to daisy cut patches big enough to make a change - does it mean increased a quantifiable increase in accuracy.
To give you an idea what is involved dollar wise, the patches at $3.41 a hundred end up with postage/shipping and exchange rate factored in would cost $175Au or there about, for a years supply.
For a retired person on fixed income its a fair amount of money, so caution motivates my actions.
The equivalent number of my local round self stamped patches would run to a $25Au ignoring my labour.
Your opinions and/or experiences with this new product will be valued.
Thanks
Bluesmoke
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IF they proved to be worthwhile it would be less expensive to have a die made in you country and cut your own.
Dennis
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I was curious and tried them. I tried not to like them because they don't fit in with my doing everything like the fur trade era.
As hard as I tried to not like them I failed. They work good. They load easier and seem to be more consistent in accuracy.
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The ones I tried were such a loose weave that they blew apart on firing. I never got to the accuracy part after I found them shredded. They advertised a tight weave but it looked like heavy cheesecloth. In your supply situation I would cut V notches in the round ones with something and get the same effect. A V chisel or scissors should work to try a few to see if it is worth it.
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I tried the pillow ticking versions. They held up fine.
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I tried them in my .40 cal and also found the "weave" to be too loose and they did not work well for me. I also was getting burn Thru on the fabric. I also doubled them up and it seemed to help but I decided to stick with a nice denium patch.
I live close enough to Freindship ID and have talked with some top shooters and most would say "keep it simple as possible and do it exactly the same every time"- and you will be near the top more often than not.
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Thank you gentlemen,
Your comments have been noted and I will will try the idea of notching the already round patches.
I am off to the fabric shop ( with micrometer in hand) as a letterbox flyer has an ad for ticking,which is both expensive and not seen real often in my neck of the woods.
I talked to a toolmaker I know and he reckons the cost of making a dedicated punch would be substantial.
Thank you all kindly I shall report on my findings.
If I don't get back here for a while have a great Xmas and New Years
Bluesmoke
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I did not find them to be worthwhile.
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I live close enough to Freindship ID and have talked with some top shooters and most would say "keep it simple as possible and do it exactly the same every time"- and you will be near the top more often than not.
Yes.
AND the most entirely difficult, last task to master is launching that ball into the same wind direction and speed-every time.
TRICKY TRICKY TRICKY! :P
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Bluesmoke,
Order some and see if they work for you.
Then, don't get too wrapped up with thinking that you will MUST have a die maker make a die ...
Do it yourself!
Get a hole saw or better yet, a "used-up" core drill from someone who drills in concrete. (Heavier wall thickness.)
Lay a patch template of your choosing on a 1/2" steel plate and dam/block around the edges of the patch with misc. round, flat or square stock tacked in place while flaring slightly at the top. (Welding the pieces on the outside will automatically do that for you.)
Heat the end of the saw/drill and push/drive it down into your form to shape it. (An arbor press if you have access to one works great.)
Then if needed, a bit of hand blacksmithing if you want it near perfect.
Clean and sharpen the cutting edge and you're done.
Mount your new die in the above mentioned arbor press and you can cut a really thick pile of patches (or heavy gasket material ;) )
Then again, you can screw a bolt into the back of the core drill and drive it with a large lead hammer to cut patches.
If it's substantial, you 'can' also use your un-plugged drill press as a light arbor press.
Personally, I have not been too impressed with the with the 'daisies' over regular round patches.
A strip of lubed patching across the muzzle and a started ball then cutting the patching off at the muzzle gives you a perfectly centered patch which in my case shoot no better than the round ones if reasonable care is used when loading.
Just remember if your 'daisy' gets askew while loading, you will suffer blow-by and really poor accuracy. ::)
Of course, your milage may vary.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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G day Smoketown,
I have made my own circular punches before but baulked at this daisy cut pattern. Of course a hole should saw would ok as it would have to be L6 or similar grade material and should heat treat well enough to cut cloth.
I will post a pic of a homemade punch in the shop made tools section. Thanks for the suggestion, that's thinking out side the box.
I am working on a forge but its nowhere near completed but its a good reason to double my efforts over Christmas break. I have no arbor press but a 30 Ton hydraulic press may do the trick using a slab of delrin to press into. Thats what I use as for hand punching.
Concentric patch to barrel is no problem. I made a patch block loader from hardwood. It has a shallow bored cut with an 1 1/4" spade bit that is centered on the drill size for the .535 ball.
The circular patch fits in the counter bore and the ball is pressed in with fingers and short started home automatically finding center.
To be honest I don't think it has made a dramatic difference.
Thanks for the idea
I will try to report back after new years.
In the mean time I shall be trying some a similar patch( but reportedly much better quality from another maker.
Thanks for helping with the idea.
Bluesmoke
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I am working on a forge but its nowhere near completed but its a good reason to double my efforts over Christmas break. I have no arbor press but a 30 Ton hydraulic press may do the trick using a slab of delrin to press into. Thats what I use as for hand punching.
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Thanks for helping with the idea.
Bluesmoke
Hey I think it's great that you're digging in and tooling up to make these patches, even though I don't expect any measurable benefit. You may find some real or unexpected benefit that we-the naysayers in this case, would never know. Good on ya' for the efforts. DOING is learning, and TYPEing is cheap :P. Carry on!
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We aren't all naysayers. You just need to get the PT version.
You can even buy them lubed with bear grease.
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Paying for someone to cut and package material for cleaning or shooting, is not cost effective.
Cutting your own cleaning and shooting patches, however, is.
It is possible, however, that some people put such a high price on their time, any of their time, that they feel the reverse is true. So be it.
I cut my own patches, for shooting and for cleaning ML's for 2 reasons - #1 - it's cheaper, and #2, I cannot buy pre-cut materials suitable for MY needs. The word "suitable" is the stickler here.
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I normally cut at the muzzle. As I said though, I did try the daisy patches and thought they worked good.
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I have an opinion on this, naturally!
I think that the OP is overthinking the benefits and disadvantages of 'daisy patches'. Further, I believe buying precut patches is a waste of time, money, lead and powder. There are none that I have found that work anywhere near as well as my home made pre-cuts, or strip patching cut on the muzzle. That is not to mention their cost. The yard goods store will have several samples of appropriate material that will give your rifle its optimum accuracy. And there is always someone willing to make your patches and charge you for them to increase his wealth.
Not for me.
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What Taylor said! Also, wouldn't you think that after 200+ years of patched round ball shooting that the alleged advantages of "daisy cut patches" would have been apparent by now? Additionally, Mike Nesbitt promoted these last year in an article ("Plunder" or "Prime Possibles"?) in Muzzleloader magazine a year or so ago and surprise, surprise, their manufacturer was, and perhaps still is, an advertiser in that magazine. No empirical data were cited, btw.
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i don't like dealing with loose, pre-cut patches, nor do i trust that i can lay 'em on the muzzle in a concentric fashion.
yeah, i only used lubed patch strips. gives me a solid reason to carry a patch knife for more than looking period correct.
ymmv.
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I was confusing these Daisy patches with the cloverleaf patches produced by the Lehigh valley lube company. I talked to that guy at Friendship and it seemed he had put a great deal of thought and effort into the cloverleaf patches, not only the design but also in finding appropriately quality controlled materials for each thickness. He didn't have anything over 20 thousandths or I would try them for my chunk gun.
I guess if I was interested in the Daisy patches, I'd try the cloverleaf ones too.
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In looking at the ads for October Country's daisy cut patches on their website, you can see that the weave is really loose. Lehigh's aren't any better. I'll pass.
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This weave looks open?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.bigcommerce.com%2Fserver2400%2Frvx8wm%2Fproducts%2F713%2Fimages%2F8325%2Fdry_ticking__18149.1402337144.1280.1280.jpg%3Fc%3D2&hash=4f5e58a6b6de11d494a63376a07b6ab9d7821e8c)
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Those don't, but if you look at the un-lubed, non-ticking patches they are loose.
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I know. That's why I said to try the PT patches. I agree the regular cotton patches are bad.
I buy my bulk PT material from October. It's consistent in size and already washed ready to use. I live in a small town with no fabric store that carries PT material.
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I go to Hobby Lobby and purchase their fabric. In the Sunday paper they always have a 40% off coupon.
http://www.hobbylobby.com/Fabric-Sewing/Apparel-Fabrics/Twill-Fabric/Navy-Blue-Ticking-Stripe-Fabric/p/154506
Fabric is 44" wide .
I cut it in 1 yard lengths x 1 1/4" wide.
Place it on the muzzle with ball. Push ball/fabric down barrel with thumb or stater. When top of ball is even with barrel end,then cut off excess with sharp pocket knife
Done. Has worked for years. Cut a little wider for the 58 cal Springfield
If I am lucky ...from time to time fabric is on sale or you can get discount for short yardage on roll. Choice of colors. I like the blue.
Have a GREAT Christmas
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I have had good luck going to pawn shops and buying used hole saws of various sizes, grind the teeth off and put an edge on the out side and you have a fairly good patch maker.
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I have a question? Has any body saw a serious line shooter use them? Usually if you watch them you will see what works best and what you want to apply to shooting skill,patch,ball ect.
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Big difference between target shooting and hunting.
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Big difference between target shooting and hunting.
You are totally correct a big difference. I will word it different. Has any body saw a serious hunter, line shooter, woods walk,or pistol shooter shoot them well enough to justify there cost?
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Yes...........me. ;D
I'm not saying I use them for hunting, but if I did....this would be the reason. Since they don't bunch up the patch. They load easier. Loading easier means I can use a tighter fit in the field and still load fast. a tighter fit has always meant more velocity, flatter shooting, and more retained energy down range. Now, this would all be a small amounts and some will say it wouldn't matter. Others who are into the small details will say everything that helps is worth it.
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I've looked at hundreds, maybe thousands of fired patches in the last 40 years, and none had a fold where the ball contacted the lands or bottoms of the grooves. The do fold above the contact line, but never beneath it.
I find VERY tight loads, load quite easily without a hammer, mallet or other percussive tool. I use my hand and a short starter- but - the short starter is never used as a hammer, or mallet, as I've seen some people use them. tap, tap, tap ???
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I'm not trying to sell the daisy patches to anybody. The thread asked about them and I gave my opinion. I thought they worked better.
I still don't use them and cut at the muzzle. Even if it isn't the best method available.
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The idea that those patches wouldn't bunch up was the major feature mentioned by Mike Nesbitt in the review I referred to in an earlier post.
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I still don't use them and cut at the muzzle. Even if it isn't the best method available.
For perfectly centered patches, I know of no better way. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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If they help you use them by all means. My personal choice is to cut them at the muzzle. Try them and don,t BS yourself, if they help use them and if they don,t save the money and put it on the powder bill.
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The idea that those patches wouldn't bunch up was the major feature mentioned by Mike Nesbitt in the review I mentioned in an earlier post.
Any material above the 'equator' will tend to bunch. It's just a matter of degree.
If the material goes above the top of the ball and you have a cleaning jag on the end of your short starter or ram rod, there is a definite chance of sticking the rod/starter or depending on the thickness of the patching, pulling the ball. (Don't ask!! ::) ) Cutting at the muzzle eliminates this.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Daisy cut patches- cost effective or not ?
Not!
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I still don't use them and cut at the muzzle. Even if it isn't the best method available.
For perfectly centered patches, I know of no better way. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
Exactly - perfectly centered EVERY time, thus, to have perfectly centered patches, it is the best method. I use precuts most of the time and they seem to work just fine, but, come to think of it, my best paper groups have just about (not EVERYTIME, but close) always been with cutting on the muzzle.
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I still don't use them and cut at the muzzle. Even if it isn't the best method available.
For perfectly centered patches, I know of no better way. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
True, but perfectly centered and bunched may be worse than not quite centered, but not bunched. I'd have to do a bunch of testing I don't feel like doing to know for sure. I'll just cut at the muzzle and remain in blissful ignorance. It's easier.
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I still don't use them and cut at the muzzle. Even if it isn't the best method available.
For perfectly centered patches, I know of no better way. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
True, but perfectly centered and bunched may be worse than not quite centered, but not bunched. I'd have to do a bunch of testing I don't feel like doing to know for sure. I'll just cut at the muzzle and remain in blissful ignorance. It's easier.
Sorry, if the patch is not centered it WILL be bunched or wadded - on the long side.
The extra material has to go somewhere.
Then again, I have also seen shooters win woods walks shooting square cut denim patches in their 50's that would easily work for a 58 or 62 caliber round ball. :o
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Thanks everyone for your feedback.
My mates and I are experienced muzzle loader shooters (patched round ball ) in that we are experienced in club shoots (paper targets) and rendezvous ( steel targets ).
We do not hunt all all ,so that does not come into our equation.
In our past, have shot all types of patches- denim,ticking,cloth and store bought patches. When we come back in the new year the intention is once again to get all the different patch types we have shot and do a genuine test of all these types and record them.
Naturally we will post our findings.
Thanks for your responses
happy Christmas and New years to your ,my friends
Bluesmoke
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Having a Christmas Eve eggnog and thinking out loud here. The part of the patch around the ball that goes in the rifling doesn't know if it is centered on the pre-cut patch or not. It should go in the same each time. The bunching would be above the ball and might be off center some but should part company with the ball upon exiting the muzzle. Cutting from a strip of material at the muzzle is about the same as an off-center patch as far as bunching is concerned, but cutting removes the bunched patching (or at least makes it equal and nice looking) all the way around the ball. Bunching is just more visible on a pre-cut patch because we can't trim it off. Since I just shoot for fun and some deer hunting, I will use my pre-cuts and let the loose ends drag.
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I don't buy patches anymore. I simply cut my own. Square patches works for me the same way round ones do.
I believe in keeping loading the gun simple. If interested, here's how I do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNNmCDwp8mM&t=8s
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Having a Christmas Eve eggnog and thinking out loud here. The part of the patch around the ball that goes in the rifling doesn't know if it is centered on the pre-cut patch or not. It should go in the same each time. The bunching would be above the ball and might be off center some but should part company with the ball upon exiting the muzzle. Cutting from a strip of material at the muzzle is about the same as an off-center patch as far as bunching is concerned, but cutting removes the bunched patching (or at least makes it equal and nice looking) all the way around the ball. Bunching is just more visible on a pre-cut patch because we can't trim it off. Since I just shoot for fun and some deer hunting, I will use my pre-cuts and let the loose ends drag.
Too much eggnog last night therefore, I hope my typing is more clear than my vision ... and/or thinking.
For those inclined toward "PII" (Col. Coopers "Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increases"), one can make a starter from a block of wood with a round ball dimple in it.
Lay your patching across the muzzle and using "the block", short start the ball to just past the "equator", now without nicking the ball, cut the patch and there will be NO material bunched or wadded above the ball and the patch will be perfectly centered.
One could also vary the depth of the dimple to adjust just how much material remains above the "equator" until they get the results desired.
As mentioned previously, MY shooting ability (or inability) does not warrant that much experimentation. ;)
Now, who has slo-mo footage of multiple PRB's being fired with a full charge of powder so we can ascertain where the patch parts company with the ball?
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Pletch did these videos - couple years ago, IIRC.
Due to the centrifugal force of the spinning ball, the patch flared upon leaving the muzzle crown, then appeared to drop back behind the ball within an inch or inches leaving the muzzle. Due to the patch's velocity however, the patch followed the ball some yards past the muzzle as we all know from looking for fired patches.
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A past president of the NMLRA is a regular at Dixon's Gunmakers Fair. When the subject of precut patches or muzzle cut patches comes up he usually grins and walks away. One year on a bet he used precut at Friendship and set a new national record with them.
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He'd set a record every year with daisy patches. :D
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A past president of the NMLRA is a regular at Dixon's Gunmakers Fair. When the subject of precut patches or muzzle cut patches comes up he usually grins and walks away. One year on a bet he used precut at Friendship and set a new national record with them.
some folks can also make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
knowing i'm at best a mediocre shot with a flinter, i'll continue to use muzzle cut patch strips to put the patch concentric issue in my favor.
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What difference will it make as long as the cut patch is centered enough to cover the sides of the ball?
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We all comment when we haven,t try,ed something(I,m in that group also) so I got some from a friend and try,ed them and the result for me was I could not tell any difference in them and cutting at the muzzle. Cutting at the muzzle a lot cheaper.
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Did you notice they load a little easier, or is it just my imagination?
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No they did not load any easier in my bbl. Not coned and a .375 cal Bill Large bbl. For me a waste of money however every bbl and shooter has there way of doing things.
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Did you notice they load a little easier, or is it just my imagination?
Unless you had pre-cut patches or strips of the exact same material, it would be hard to tell.
The ones that I tried did seem to load a bit easier because they weren't as thick or sturdy as my well washed ticking.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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The daisy patches I tried were made from .015 ticking. The same material I buy from October to cut at the muzzle. I assume it's the same. I thought the daisy loaded easier due to less bunching.
Like I said it could have been my imagination. I won't give up cutting at the muzzle for the difference. Besides, what would I do with my patch knife if I did? ;D