AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Chowmi on December 19, 2016, 08:52:13 AM
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I'm building a Chamber's Isaac Haines, and have chosen to copy the patchbox off of #80 in RCA.
Essentially, I have two questions:
#1. Does it look like I have scaled the picture up correctly, resulting in the right size patchbox?
I scaled up a photocopy from RCA, using the butt plate height measurement from RCA compared to the butt plate on my rifle. My length of pull is about 1/4" to 1/2" less. Maybe I should have tempered the measurements from that.
It looks a bit big, but when I compare it to the RCA gun, it seems about right.
Here is a photo where I have roughly traced the outline of the patch box to get an idea. The outline is rough, but dimensionally accurate.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/417/31589654672_07a374f91a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Q8teLu)IMG_3541 (https://flic.kr/p/Q8teLu) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
#2 I was surprised at how much I would need to bend the hinge and finial in order to make it fit. I've done all the reading in Gunsmiths of Grenville, and understand that I do not want to bend the lid hinges, only the outer sections. It also says in Grenville that you can flatten a portion of the stock under the hinge, and you will end up with the illusion of the correct profile. I know that you do not flatten the whole section as you would for a sliding wood patchbox.
When I lay the finial on the stock, it looks like I would really have to dig in there to get it in.
Also, on this particular patchbox, it appears that the outer hinge points on the lid are quite close to the edge of the lid. That leaves little on the sides to bend.
Here are a few photos of the finial on the stock ( with no flattening yet), to show how much curvature would be required:
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/425/31363547870_d20b7c3e4a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PMuo6m)IMG_3544 (https://flic.kr/p/PMuo6m) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
On this one, the finial is balancing on the stock and so one side is higher than the other:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/509/31363545400_e54e1f5386_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PMunmL)IMG_3545 (https://flic.kr/p/PMunmL) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
So is that normally what it looks like?
Or:
Have I not shaped that area of the stock correctly. Have I maintained the curve of the butt plate too far forward? I don't think I have dished the transition from the comb too much.
Here is a picture that might help show the profile of the stock at the hinge/finial:
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/690/31620750951_d960ae6e6a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QbdBBe)IMG_3547 (https://flic.kr/p/QbdBBe) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
The tracing is rough, there will be a daisy head on it!
Thanks for the help in advance,
Cheers,
Norm
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How thick is the patch box material? It may be just the photograph, but it looks really thick. I usually use recycled old brass door kick plates, which are around forty thousandths thick. Thinner metal makes it easier to roll the hing, and bend the contures.
Hungry Horse
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How thick is the patch box material?
Hungry Horse
Good question, it's .060. It's a Chamber's patchbox kit. I bought it over 3 years ago when I bought the gun kit.
Cheers,
Norm
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I always bend the whole thing, I assumed everyone else did too. Anneal your brass and then bend it around your stock. Then screw it down to your stock and trace around the edge. Then start the inleting process. Does Gunville really say leave the lid straight? :o
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As I've only made one brass patch box, and my hinge was on the side, I'm looking forward to the responses you get here. You've certainly done a nice job describing and photographing your situation.
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After bending it to fit, the hinge knuckles will probably have to be filed so the door will open and close.
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I agree with what has been said , you will have to bend it . I do like Mike said I screw the box to the stock and trace , inlet , etc. When you bend the hinge you will create tightness in the knuckles on the inside of the bend " underside" of the hinge . Pull the hinge wire out and file the interference between the knuckles on the bottom side mostly that way you won`t have large visible gaps between the knuckles on the top surface "the side you see " . I always anneal my brass first, to me it makes it easier to get it to lay down flush . This is just the way I do it and I`m sure there are other methods that will work as good or better. I think it looks like your doing fine keep us posted . Thanks Nathan
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I always bend the whole thing, I assumed everyone else did too. Anneal your brass and then bend it around your stock. Then screw it down to your stock and trace around the edge. Then start the inleting process. Does Gunville really say leave the lid straight? :o
Mike,
it doesn't say to leave the whole thing straight, and I didn't mean to leave the impression that I was going to do that. Essentially it says that you don't bend the middle part of the hinge that has the knuckles from the lid portion, or you don't bend it very much. The reason he gives is that of course the hinge won't work if it is curved (or curved too much).
I kind of figured that most people did indeed bend the whole hinge, and then file the knuckle joints as stated by everyone above. I also took a look through the ALR library last night after posting this and it looked to me like the old builders bent the whole hinge to a certain extent.
Does it look like I will have to bend it more than normal? In other words, is the stock too curved?
I will indeed screw it in, and then draw my lines for inletting. The lines that you see were just simply to show the size for my question and to help align the finial for the picture.
Thanks for the replies,
Norm
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Many of the originals have a flat section in the patch box area where the hinge is located. If that is the style of box you are building then do it that way.
The style of box you are doing I don't think was done that way so you will need to bend the whole box to match the contour of the stock. You may flatten out the area where the hinge will sit a little so it does not have a huge bend in it.
I build my patch boxes that have a curve in the hinge in this manor. I will make my hinge loops in the finial and the door then I will make a form from a scrap piece of wood that matches the contour of the butt stock where the hinge will be located. I bend the door and the finial separately in my form after I have formed the hinge loop and I make this bend with my hinge wire in the loop. After bending I pull the hinge wire and then layout my hinge knuckles in both pieces. I fit the knuckles as I go, insert the hinge wire as I go until I get a good fit and the hinge is complete. In doing this you can file your knuckles square and the door will open and close without binding.
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Here is a link that expands on what Mike was saying earlier about bending, screwing, tracing and inletting. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37036.0 This is a hidden lid box but the inletting techniques are akin.
David
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I always bend the whole thing, I assumed everyone else did too. Anneal your brass and then bend it around your stock. Then screw it down to your stock and trace around the edge. Then start the inleting process. Does Gunville really say leave the lid straight? :o
Mike,
it doesn't say to leave the whole thing straight, and I didn't mean to leave the impression that I was going to do that. Essentially it says that you don't bend the middle part of the hinge that has the knuckles from the lid portion, or you don't bend it very much. The reason he gives is that of course the hinge won't work if it is curved (or curved too much).
I kind of figured that most people did indeed bend the whole hinge, and then file the knuckle joints as stated by everyone above. I also took a look through the ALR library last night after posting this and it looked to me like the old builders bent the whole hinge to a certain extent.
Does it look like I will have to bend it more than normal? In other words, is the stock too curved?
I will indeed screw it in, and then draw my lines for inletting. The lines that you see were just simply to show the size for my question and to help align the finial for the picture.
Thanks for the replies,
Norm
Your stock shape looks good, exactly as it should. I always chop a ditch in where the knuckles go so you can screw your box down flush. I ought to write a book on how to build guns, there doesn't seem to be anything on the market that shows how to do it in the real world. ;) Maybe I could retire then.......
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If you leave that much bend in the hinge you will have a very hard time opening the lid. The amount of bend in the hinge is very limited. Think about it and try it out before you inlay it.
Go to DAVEC's post on the Chambers rifle he built. That is the perfect way they should be. I know that the old originals are not all like that but they were basically wrong. BASPHEMY !!!!
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Well, here's some with out a flat spot, although they don't look as curved as I remember them. Come to think on it, I probably haven't done a brass box in 4 or 5 years so forget everything I said. I wouldn't hesitate to put a box on Chow's stock the way it is....but I live on the razor's edge too..... :P
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FKlette%2520kit%2Fkit3.jpg&hash=526e681cc283c9a3fec94ad98bd1a0bb60f53f6c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FKlette%2520kit%2Fkit6.jpg&hash=852cb81a99fcaf9d3c045a1a29bbe1cd03223020)
here's another un.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FKlette%2520smooth%2520rifle%2Fkr2.jpg&hash=5cb5f7dc76f10fda709438e9696c392e6a8906b9)
and another un
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2FMoody%2520Rifle%2Fmoody6.jpg&hash=9d2086af9ae8efdfa813e074c693ef2393e5a1fe)
yet nother
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0703%2FGunmaker%2Fperry%2520rifle%2Fperry3.jpg&hash=d03356c500908fc137c0d2b99cf648945892ad4a)
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Your stock shape looks good, exactly as it should. I always chop a ditch in where the knuckles go so you can screw your box down flush. I ought to write a book on how to build guns, there doesn't seem to be anything on the market that shows how to do it in the real world. ;) Maybe I could retire then.......
Thanks Mike, you write it, I'll buy it!
Just saw your other post with pictures as I write this. I'll have a look at them as well. Looks like on some of those there is a little bit of play between the hinges that may allow for a curved hinge to open.
I will also look at Dave Crisalli's post about the Chamber's rifle. I've been following that one.
Norm
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Your stock shape looks good, exactly as it should. I always chop a ditch in where the knuckles go so you can screw your box down flush. I ought to write a book on how to build guns, there doesn't seem to be anything on the market that shows how to do it in the real world. ;) Maybe I could retire then.......
Thanks Mike, you write it, I'll buy it!
Just saw your other post with pictures as I write this. I'll have a look at them as well. Looks like on some of those there is a little bit of play between the hinges that may allow for a curved hinge to open.
I will also look at Dave Crisalli's post about the Chamber's rifle. I've been following that one.
Norm
I'm a lot more sloppy knuckled than dave2c and others around here. ;)
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I'm a lot more sloppy knuckled than dave2c and others around here. ;)
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I'm such an idiot. Didn't even occur to me that I might have appeared to be criticizing your work. I gather you made those?
I'll just shut up now. :-X
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I'm a lot more sloppy knuckled than dave2c and others around here. ;)
I'm such an idiot. Didn't even occur to me that I might have appeared to be criticizing your work. I gather you made those?
I'll just shut up now. :-X
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Oh hey, I took no offense what so ever, never even occurred to me. I was just stating the obvious facts. I'm well aware of my limited capabilities and am comfortable with them as compared to some of our top notch people here. My stuff is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.
All of those are probably patch box kits from Chambers or elsewhere, I have never had much desire to completely scratch build parts that I can get already started by somebody else, saves me a bunch of time and my customers save money.
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If you look at the good originals you will notice two things. The hinge parts that are on the lid are best to be in the middle of the hinge section and not too far apart. they are basically straight. A curved hinge cannot open unless it has a lot of slack in the pins. NO good. The section on the lid should be straight.
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Jerrywh,
what you said was the same as my understanding from reading. I've handled only a few originals, and should have paid more attention to that detail.
The patch box I am attempting to re-create has 3 hinge points on the lid, and 4 on the finial. The 3 on the lid cover a fairly wide area of the hinge.
I may have to compromise and do one of, or a combination of two things.
Keep the lid hinge portion of the hinge line straight and hope for the illusion of curvature, as stated in Grenville,
And/or, re-configure the hinge points on the lid portion so that they do not cover as much area, which would allow me more room to bend the sides.
I might also be able to bend the center section ever so slightly as others have posted.
I will experiment with all of those. This being somewhere between my second and third rifle (worked on several concurrently), it will never be perfect. The key on this one is to learn how to do things well/correctly.
Cheers,
Norm
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If you go back to the photo layout page 338 you have two great shots from the top and bottom of the butt stock. Take note of the line from the butt plate to the tip of the patch box finial. You can also see the flatter contour of the butt stock up to the point of the hinge section. You will see there is a divot in the line that coincides with the hinge.What this does is lower the point of where the hinge is no longer at such a height. This effectively decreases the arch of the center of the lid section of the hinge. Here is a shot of an original and you can see the hinge point is dropped lower than the finial.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmpbWM5%2F39759x11_zpszmvu5iwt.jpg&hash=e7fbcb87028d470321b746735cd6128da2c4fe2d) (http://ibb.co/mSBLEQ)
This box hinge has been flattened slightly at the lid portion. The lighting gives the clue to the slight contour flatter section on the side of the finial.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnbStZQ%2Fjpb_001_zps02c78d95.jpg&hash=dc4a4023db50818f390aa128edd494fed872956c) (http://ibb.co/eHd0EQ)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdGgbok%2Fjpb_002_1_zpsc2c653bb.jpg&hash=e805e0632aff6a5d766243cb85d862440c19b0f6) (http://ibb.co/mrvQg5)
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Norm,
Gary Brumfield's website has an article on making a curved patchbox hinge, one key element being to cut the knuckles after bending the hinge to fit the stock.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/making_a_curved_box_hinge.htm
Also, it may be the photos but to my eye, your stock seems to curve a bit much along the hinge, particularly as the curvature is greatest at the middle of the hinge. You may want to reduce that jus a bit.
Once you've made a working hinge with a slight curvature, you can enhance the illusion of a curved hinge by filing the tops of the outside knuckles.
Bill
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I use a two piece hard maple form to bend my patchbox lid and finial. Because the hinge knuckles are thicker, they never bend as much as the rest of the part and are usually a little straighter. However, there is always some bend in my hinge. That is how I was taught to make them. Because of that, they rarely open past about 60 degrees. I usually use a five or seven knuckle hinge where only the middle three knuckles have to turn on the pin. A tiny bit of curve in those knuckles is usually not a problem.
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Bill,
thank you for the point out to Gary's site. I will go through that as well.
Mark,
I had planned to make a bending form out of hard wood, as you describe. And, I'm sure I will end up with a bit of curve as well on the center section. That seems to be the consensus here.
Holidays coming up, probably won't really get to this till after Christmas, but I will post pictures of my progress.
Cheers,
Norm
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Chowmi, is the intent for your hinge to run the full width of the patchbox outline, or just the section where the box will be inletted?
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Bones,
on this particular patchbox from Isaac Haines, the hinge does run the entire width of the box. I guess it depends on your definition of hinge though. The hinge wire will run the entire width, however the knuckles are of course only within the width of the patchbox lid. Essentially like the third patchbox in Mike Brook's photos, without the wood piercings.
It's #80 in RCA. I have resisted the temptation to violate copyright law and post a copy of the photo from the book.
Cheers,
Norm
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I finally got some time to work on this patch box today.
I was Mr. Mom over the holidays because the missus was away taking care of her parents. Needless to say, I've only had about 4 or 5 hours to work on guns for the last month.
Man, it was nice to spend the morning in the shop!
I gouged out a mold in a piece of semi-hard wood (need to use harder wood next time) and scraped it to pretty close to the profile of the stock. I annealed the patch box finial and pounded it into shape on the mold.
I ended up with almost the opposite of what Alexander says in Grenville, in that I have a pretty good bend in the middle, and not much on the edges. I may have another look at it and do a little more bending.
Here is a photo of it laying in position on the stock. I have bent the sides just a tiny bit more, but they still don't touch the wood. I'm thinking that it will turn out alright with the inlet, but I may let it sit for a day and re-think it.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/511/32218236336_691d0a4137_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/R61Tco)IMG_3632 (https://flic.kr/p/R61Tco) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
After that, I trimmed the patch box lid to the right width and bent it as well. It seems to match pretty well at the hinge.
I then cut the knuckles with a jewelers saw and a hack saw. They came out alright as well, although some of the cuts aren't as straight as I'd like.
I did a bit of filing to get them to fit, but ran out of time for the day.
Here's a pic showing the hinge.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/639/32256500525_4382802f4a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/R9oZNM)IMG_3635 (https://flic.kr/p/R9oZNM) by chowmif16 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chowmi/), on Flickr
The hinge almost fits together, just a bit more filing needed on the center knuckle. After that, I'll work with it to see how it well it opens/closes.
Cheers,
Norm
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That bend seems pretty close to what I normally get. Sometimes I will punch the edges down a little if they don't lay relatively flat once you screw the whole thing down. I do screw it down before I start the inletting. That way, the screw holes keep everything lined up as you inlet it down.
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That bend seems pretty close to what I normally get. Sometimes I will punch the edges down a little if they don't lay relatively flat once you screw the whole thing down. I do screw it down before I start the inletting. That way, the screw holes keep everything lined up as you inlet it down.
Mark,
thanks for the reply and letting me know I am on the right track.
As you mentioned, I had intended to screw it down for inletting and thought that would give me a good idea how it was going.
I like the idea of punching them down if required, thank you.
Might be a few days before I get to work on it. Also need to clean up the edges of the finial and file a draft in them.
Cheers,
Norm
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You guys mentioned the "Illusion of a bend" I was wondering if you get it too straight do you get an illusion that the hinge is concaved. Some of my friends are luthiers and I have noticed that if they make a classical guitar fingerboard without a crown or radius, the flat fingerboard will have the appearance of being concaved. Certainly not what you would want for a patchbox. Just a random thought.
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You guys mentioned the "Illusion of a bend" I was wondering if you get it too straight do you get an illusion that the hinge is concaved. Some of my friends are luthiers and I have noticed that if they make a classical guitar fingerboard without a crown or radius, the flat fingerboard will have the appearance of being concaved. Certainly not what you would want for a patchbox. Just a random thought.
I think you are probably right. The mention of an Illusion of bend was from Gunsmiths of Grenville County, and his point was that the hinge on the patch box doesn't need to exactly match the contour of the stock at that point. He says that a little bit of a bend will create the illusion that the patch box is bent to the contour of the stock. In essence, a little bend will cause your eye to assume it is the correct (larger) bend. It's probably a similar illusion to the fretboard issue on the guitar you mentioned, but in reverse.
Cheers,
Norm
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I spent a bit more time filing on the knuckles, and opened up the holes a little bit, and it works!
I can get it to bend about 90 degrees, which is good enough for me.
I filed the draft in the finial and will drill screw holes and start inletting it when I have some more time.
Thanks again for all the help.
Cheers,
Norm
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Told you it would work. ;)
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Well done! My first rifle had a curved patchbox hinge. I recall being absolutely delighted when it worked!
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Told you it would work. ;)
Yes you did!
Now to exercise my dreadfully bad inletting skills!
Norm
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the only way a curved hinge can open is if it is sloppy where the pin goes through. The more bent the hinge id the sloppier it has to be to open. If it is curved to extreme it won't open at all. Think about it.
The ideal hinge is straight where the lid knuckles are and the curve in the lid begins just behind the hinge. Anybody can say differently but it is impossible for a curved hinge to work properly. Some originals were curved because frankly they didn't know any better. Never assume that an original is correct. Many of the "old Masters"weren't so masterful. Dave Crisalli's copy of the Chambers rifle is the proper way to construct a hinge of that type. The Guy is an engineer.
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Hmmmm.If your trying to recreate an "old masters work" don't you do it his way,warts and all?right or wrong you offer that gun up for critique by those that know you will get called on it.Sure looks like his patch box will turn out just fine and hope to see the final result.
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the only way a curved hinge can open is if it is sloppy where the pin goes through. The more bent the hinge id the sloppier it has to be to open. If it is curved to extreme it won't open at all. Think about it.
The ideal hinge is straight where the lid knuckles are and the curve in the lid begins just behind the hinge. Anybody can say differently but it is impossible for a curved hinge to work properly. Some originals were curved because frankly they didn't know any better. Never assume that an original is correct. Many of the "old Masters"weren't so masterful. Dave Crisalli's copy of the Chambers rifle is the proper way to construct a hinge of that type. The Guy is an engineer.
that's my take on the subject, also. I see no reason to build something mechanically incorrect, just because that's the way they did it years ago. there's no reason that hinge can't be made straight with the cover being curved, so why build it so it is destined to bind and not fully open ?. after all, these guns aren't original, they are modern representations of a an original style, styles aren't always mechanically or architecturally correct in every aspect, just because a sample exists. a better (more properly operating) hinge is surely not going to detract from the representation of the style. I would much more have a rifle that exhibits a style but is mechanically better is such a small aspect. of course one could extend that premise to include all sorts of details, but some of them should be corrected if possible without completely negating the representation.
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a slight radius and some careful file work it should work fine,not like it's being bent in a half circle.Everything old,antique has been replaced with better technology, better ways of doing ect.but old and antique has its charm,look about it and is what most often drives folks to collect it in the first place,value part aside.IMHO
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the only way a curved hinge can open is if it is sloppy where the pin goes through. The more bent the hinge id the sloppier it has to be to open. If it is curved to extreme it won't open at all. Think about it.
The ideal hinge is straight where the lid knuckles are and the curve in the lid begins just behind the hinge. Anybody can say differently but it is impossible for a curved hinge to work properly. Some originals were curved because frankly they didn't know any better. Never assume that an original is correct. Many of the "old Masters"weren't so masterful. Dave Crisalli's copy of the Chambers rifle is the proper way to construct a hinge of that type. The Guy is an engineer.
Jerry,
you are indeed correct about a curved hinge not working unless there is some slop in there. And that is exactly what I ended up with. There is room in the ID of the hinge so that it will work.
I really don't want this thread to develop into a debate about whether we should improve upon the techniques of the old masters or not. I think that is absolutely a worthy debate, and I'd love to see it.
To explain my own approach, I like to attempt to build the ways those guys did, warts and all. That is driven by two factors: I like the historical nature of building as they did to the best of my ability. Secondly, my skills simply haven't developed to where I can be better than them.
I greatly appreciate seeing contemporary guns that are improvements on what the old guys could do, and greatly admire the skills that allow that. I don't have those skills yet (or maybe ever), and may change my approach in future. For now, I am content to build guns with realistic mistakes.
That being said, I am absolutely happy to take criticism. Without honest feedback, we will never improve.
It could be that my solution to this patch box is neither historically correct, nor mechanically correct in the modern sense. It's my first one, and I will take all lessons learned and apply it to my second, third and subsequent ones!
This is not a rebuke of any criticism I have received. I welcome and appreciate all of it, and will learn from it.
Thanks again,
Norm
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Norm I to struggle with the gun building. My first patch box was a real learning curve also. Do agree that each gun we make we learn or should. Also I believe that in the day. There we're good builders an not so good. As comparing between now an then. It's a world of difference between the materials used an how we do thing's now. I like what you said. Warts an all it adds character to the gun. Mike
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There 's no debate. Facts are facts. I never created the laws of physics.
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Without question,but of if you where to make a bench copy of an original by a well know maker and his hinge had a bend in it and you chose to make yours "right".You enter it say Dixon's to be judged they start looking your hinge over but you say ya but look it opens better,they might hand it back to you and give you the you need to handle more originals line ;)
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a slight radius and some careful file work it should work fine,not like it's being bent in a half circle.Everything old,antique has been replaced with better technology, better ways of doing ect.but old and antique has its charm,look about it and is what most often drives folks to collect it in the first place,value part aside.IMHO
the problem with that train of thought is that we don't have an old or antique gun here. we have a brand new modern representation, and that is all it will ever be. I would rather have it work "correctly" and look decently similar as a gun that was built many years ago and let that old gun have it's place under the limelight, keeping my representation decently close, as a tribute to that old gun, but somewhat better working, due to improved technology and/or correct mechanics..
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My personal take is that the guys who built these things 200 years ago were....a) very clever.....and b) made their guns the best way they knew how. I try to do the same while keeping within the framework of building an 18th century rifle. As for patch box hinges, I have bent them, but only at the edges....I always keep the center / working part of the hinge straight. The following has become my favorite way to do this after seeing a photo of an original with a separate riveted on hinge.
I make the hinge (as wide as the patch box door) from two pieces of 1/16 inch thick brass plate and two lengths of 3/16 inch (or even smaller) diameter brass rod, each the full width of the hinge. I put both pieces of brass rod in the lathe in turn and drill a 1/16 inch hole through them lengthwise for the hinge pin. I then silver solder the two rods to the two pieces of brass plate. Then I cut away alternate pieces of the brass rod to form the hinge knuckles. All of these parts are nice and straight, so this work is easy to do.
Independently, I bend both the patch box finial and the door to match the contour of the stock as closely as I can. Now, I file the plates on the hinge sides to match the contour of the underside of the door and the finial. The hinge looks like this at that point......
(https://preview.ibb.co/eHo0mk/IMG_2336.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gpOY6k)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jAcRRk/IMG_2333.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ch6aK5)
At this point, the hinge halves can either be soldered to the door and the finial or they can be riveted. Both are traditional methods. Now I have a door and a finial that are curved to the stock but a perfectly straight hinge. But it looks like its curved somewhat because the surrounding brass is. If you want the hinge to look even more like it is curved, file off a little of the brass hinge knuckles on both ends. Here it is just before assembly......
(https://preview.ibb.co/cPmaK5/IMG_2332.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWfPCQ)
And here is the finished patch box......
(https://preview.ibb.co/bZgxXQ/IMG_2343.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hykPCQ)
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All the real good old time makers constantly tried to be better. Competition drove them to do so. Basically that is the cause of the golden age firearms. After the Revolution there were an excess of gun makers and in an effort to survive in business they each tried to out do the others in quality and decoration. The same thing is occurring today to some extent. The other option is to go cheaper and cheaper. Now however the lower priced guns must compete with machine made. That makes it almost impossible to survive if one is trying to make a living of gun making. If it's for fun there is no competition except for ego sake. As for me, it's more fun when I make money, then I can sell a wall hanger and go buy a dozen hunting guns and maybe a 4 wheeler besides.
Dave's patch box design is pure genius. Like I said "the guy's an engineer". I never would have thought of that.
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davec2, yes that hinge looks correct. the center of the hinge would be sunk in comparison to the curve of the stock. harder to make, but much better and mechanically correct yet still looking perfectly right. I think that although many of the rifle builders of that era were not necessarily engineers and machinists, they did know what was mechanically correct and what wasn't. beautiful patchbox. also, by the way !.
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There 's no debate. Facts are facts. I never created the laws of physics.
Well, surprisingly I did create the laws of physics, although few people realize it. Did by shaking my woo woo stick three times while saying the word of the day. Works every time. You just have to know how to hold your tongue. :P
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All I can say is jerrywh an Dave2c are true master's at gun building!!! Always impressed. Oldtravler
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I fully understand the value in making a "bench copy" of a historic article, I have a couple bench copies of well known all wooden clocks that I built, just to build them as they were originally built 150 or so years ago. I also have an appreciation of the precision that can be accomplished with proper hand tools, as I have used them my entire life. that said, this (a gun) is one area where really feel a deviation from "historically correct", is warranted by substitution of "mechanically correct, simply because we are able to achieve it in an are that can only make a firearm better. each to their own,...I wasn't trying to stir the pot, just offering opinion and conversation. we are all adults here, we should be able to discuss different view points with out resorting to argument. this is a great forum, that I have lurked on since it's inception. I have seen that the people here are much more open to discussion of different ideas compared to most of the varied forums I have been on....it is satisfyingly refreshing and I look forward to contributing my knowledge of wood, woodwork and hand tools as much a I can as well as learning what is available from all the authorative members here..
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I fully understand the value in making a "bench copy" of a historic article, I have a couple bench copies of well known all wooden clocks that I built, just to build them as they were originally built 150 or so years ago. I also have an appreciation of the precision that can be accomplished with proper hand tools, as I have used them my entire life. that said, this (a gun) is one area where really feel a deviation from "historically correct", is warranted by substitution of "mechanically correct, simply because we are able to achieve it in an are that can only make a firearm better. each to their own,...I wasn't trying to stir the pot, just offering opinion and conversation. we are all adults here, we should be able to discuss different view points with out resorting to argument. this is a great forum, that I have lurked on since it's inception. I have seen that the people here are much more open to discussion of different ideas compared to most of the varied forums I have been on....it is satisfyingly refreshing and I look forward to contributing my knowledge of wood, woodwork and hand tools as much a I can as well as learning what is available from all the authorative members here..
I can tell you are new here....... :o
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speaking figuratively, of course !,..... if you think place is bad,....go to "Archery Talk", or some of the other hunting/shooting/archery/sports forums !.
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Chowme.
We don't really argue. We just offer up diverse ideas and differing opinions. If you want a full set of options, you must stir the pot now and then. Just look at the neat ideas we learned. I don't learn much on these subjects any more because I have been doing it so long. I learned something new on this subject because you brought it up. That is a big deal for me. Thanks for steering the pot.
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I have to say that I learn something from someone every time I get on this board......and I always assume that if someone has a differing opinion, that it is never meant as an argument but just what it is, a differing opinion.
Of course, if the post starts out by saying, "How can you be such a jackass.....!", then, perhaps, I would take it that the differing opinion is being offered a little more aggressively... :o
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Chowme.
We don't really argue. We just offer up diverse ideas and differing opinions. If you want a full set of options, you must stir the pot now and then. Just look at the neat ideas we learned. I don't learn much on these subjects any more because I have been doing it so long. I learned something new on this subject because you brought it up. That is a big deal for me. Thanks for steering the pot.
Jerry,
I'm glad I stirred the pot and generated discussion. That is indeed the value of this forum, I'm glad that we have all learned something from this thread. I certainly have, and I have much more to learn.
I've seen countless pictures of your rifles, and admire them greatly.
Dave,
thank you for posting pictures of the method you used to build that patch box. It is ingenious, and has turned out beautifully. I had been following the progress of your build, and marvel at the precision with which you build. I also love the pictures of your rocket engine work! I've never done anything rocket related, but have an appreciation for thrust. I've flown a 24,000 pound airplane with 28,000 pounds of thrust from standing still to 15,000 feet in probably less than 2 minutes.
Anyway, back to topic:
I've stayed away from this topic for a few days partly because I've been working on other guns, shooting at a club shoot etc. , and partly because I just didn't want to get sucked in to a discussion about historically correct vs. mechanically correct or whatever else might have cropped up.
I haven't made any more progress, but will post pictures when I get the finial and lid inlet into the stock.
Cheers,
Norm