AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jay Oliver on February 24, 2017, 08:46:57 PM

Title: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 24, 2017, 08:46:57 PM: Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum, but have looking and learning for a while. I got into Flintlocks 5 years or so ago with Pedersolli Blue Ridge in .54. I bought a completed 16 gauge flintlock fowler about a month ago from TOTW and now I am definitely hooked! I have always wanted to build a fowler and have been considering a Chambers kit, and will get one someday.

However, I had a chance to buy an original fowler this past week(and did), that while probably shootable I just don’t want to risk it with something that is in fairly nice condition. So that lead me here…I want to copy it as close as I can(within reason) and shoot the one I make. The original gun is stocked in cherry, is a 28 gauge smoothbore with a 48 ¾” barrel and OAL of 63 ½”. Pictures below…

In my quick research, I noticed that a few companies make 48” barrels. I was thinking using the ¾ shorter barrel, than adding ¾ inches to the stock to increase length of pull, which is currently just under 13”. I also saw a few stock duplicators that could even inlet the stock for the barrel and ram rod(which would help me as a first time builder). The Chamber Golden Age Lock looks very close to the lock on the original fowler.

While this would be my first gun build I would classify myself as pretty resourceful and patient. I would like to start getting all my supplies/components so I am ready to build next winter. While not a kit I’ll have the original to look at study and copy for the new build. I think it would be a fun project and it’s motivating me to finally build a gun.

My guess is step 1 would be to find the barrel?

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Daryl on February 24, 2017, 09:31:31 PM: Finding a 50" barrel might be difficult. Just a guess on the length - maybe 54"?

Looks pretty neat, though.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: smart dog on February 24, 2017, 09:55:17 PM: Hi,
Jay, I linked your photos so they automatically come up. I have a slow DSL connection (and I suspect a lot of other forum members also have slow connections) and when posters just include links to photobucket, it takes so long to open each photo that I usually just ignore those posts. All you have to do to get the link correct is click on the "direct" link in photobucket, which copies it, and paste that between the image posting brackets on the ALR site.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9e_1.jpg&hash=97efca7d8628c01cd9e27a8ecbf40387b04e7224)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9d_1.jpg&hash=07869348a841c9227d5c0dcc9c3121207d80c983)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9c_1.jpg&hash=2dcb57c8808a9dcd4cbd70bdd8984ab643574863)

dave
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: ScottH on February 24, 2017, 09:58:56 PM: Charlie B at FCI Barrels can make a 48" barrel for you
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: rich pierce on February 24, 2017, 10:10:20 PM: Great gun!
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Dave Marsh on February 24, 2017, 10:17:21 PM: +1 on a great gun.

Dave
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on February 24, 2017, 11:07:40 PM: It's a great gun in remarkable condition, and certainly worthy of replication. I got John Getz to make me a 50" .50 cal smooth barrel a few years ago, turned octagonal to round...nice barrel for one of my pet furture projects. It too is going into a cherry stock inlet nicely for me by Mark Weider from Jack's Mountain Stocks in Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 24, 2017, 11:18:34 PM: Thanks Dave for posting the pictures directly. I was thinking about a Charlie Burton barrel though I am not sure what style. I would like t in a 28 gauge and 48" long. The original gun doss not have a wedding band transition from octagon to round. In fact the top is flat(5/16" or so) from the breach all the way until about 4 inches from the muzzle.

My goal is to get close to the original, I don't think I need/want the barrel duplicated by a custom barrel maker. Or do I? I would like the guns to be in the same caliber, 28 gauge, and the same overall length. I would also like to use cherry wood like the original.

Thanks, Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: conquerordie on February 25, 2017, 12:13:54 AM: Very nice fowler. Sighting planes are usually found almost the full length on New England fowlers like the one you describe. I might be wrong, and I hope I am for your sake, but I've never seen a barrel maker that can have a round profile barrel with the flat sighting plan on it. You might have to add that yourself. Keep us updated. That will make a great project to reproduce.
Greg
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Tim Crosby on February 25, 2017, 01:40:16 AM: Dave, Thanks for getting the Pix up.

Tim C.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: SingleMalt on February 25, 2017, 02:22:23 AM: I think it's a fine looking fowler and I'm looking forward to seeing your take on it.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 25, 2017, 04:23:27 AM: Thanks you for the replies. All of the positive responsive have me really excited about this project.

I appreciate the references for both the stock and barrel. The original gun does have a sighting plane(I had forgotten the terminology, but that is what the seller called it). The barrel just seems to taper from octagon to round(no real traansitioon point), with the sighting plane on top.

This being my first build and I may not worry about the barrel being exactly the same(though still a 28 gauge and 48" long). Or save that for when I have a more experience. Everything else will be as close as I can make it.

Would you go with something like the Burton Trade barrel? I noticed that was listed as not being flared. Any other places? I looked for Getz barrels but couldn't find too many models/styles, just reference to working directly with the company.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I'll order the barrel as soon as I figure out which one to get.

Jay

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler4.jpg&hash=1b0e10a8d2596f385215e20265baac19f11bbff8)
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on February 25, 2017, 04:46:23 AM: The sighting planes were chiseled/filed into the barrels. I'm not aware of any of the barrel makers that will do that for you. It's not hard, just very, very tedious.

That is a NICE piece. I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: mountain~plains on February 25, 2017, 05:10:47 AM: Jiminy Crickets! That will reach a right smart ways out to the flock!
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Mike Brooks on February 25, 2017, 04:00:43 PM: First, great gun. Second, do you have any more pictures, third, PM me and I'll get you going on this.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 25, 2017, 05:54:22 PM: I'll post some better pictures this afternoon. Mike I have been on you website looking and admiring your work many times. I would appreciate any advice you have to me started. Between actually shooting a Fowler at sporting clays this past month and getting an original last week I am ready get serious and build my first gun.

I'll follow up with pictures and Mike I'll send you note this afternoon.

Thank you!

Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: alex e. on February 25, 2017, 07:21:50 PM: Larry Horrigan in Michigan made me such a barrel for a French fusil(51.25") with the octagon section filed/slightly fluted. But it was not cheap. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Keb on February 25, 2017, 07:52:15 PM: I have a few barrels by Larry Horrigan.

48 1/2" x .58 cal.

50" x .50 cal.

53" x .54 cal.

I sent him the barrel blanks with the bores finished. All machined octagon to round with various length of tapered octagon. And yes, it took a while and wasn't cheap.
The .58 cal is the only one in wood. The rest are future projects.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 12:28:03 AM: Here are some more pictures. You can this had a rear sight at some point.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000223.jpg&hash=e91d1b8822a7a202cd77e5a153dcf10969f2172f)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000229_1.jpg&hash=edaa83ce5f515dcdfd37746fc73e50c16238e346)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000247.jpg&hash=5b89235b838265ed58d089062020643df8a6a06e)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000243.jpg&hash=8fb593c1a0b07274541e40006ecd07695447445a)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000241.jpg&hash=304723893e7e5f738b522881cf934812fe4377ad)
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 12:34:35 AM: Some close ups around the lock and backplate(not sure if that is what it is called...), some wood damage, but not too bad

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000239.jpg&hash=262a94af83d41fc498da06a8cdc00dbf5a3c9229)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9b.jpg&hash=46ff46be02260a46a5484dd6583dbb724ed17295)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9a.jpg&hash=04d7fdc1c8594ff9f3e64707aaec4033bb93533e)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2Frifowler9.jpg&hash=a1f27689e85816da1b78c31a9a3d86823c5d1e92)
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 12:42:17 AM: I have a good friend who has some big cherry trees that were knocked down on his farm last year by Hurricane Matthew. What should I look for to see if I could possibly us this wood for the stock? If was able to have some boards/blanks milled I could send them to someone to have the general pattern cut and do the barrel inletting right? This may get my friend to build one too...

I appreciate the help! I know these are some basic questions and I need to get a few books and also look around the web. The blanks I found online looked like they were usually 2 inches thick.

Thank you,

Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on February 26, 2017, 01:03:11 AM: Huh? Siler lock? :o
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Mike Brooks on February 26, 2017, 01:10:23 AM: Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on February 26, 2017, 01:03:11 AM
Huh? Siler lock? :o
Yep, looks like one of Bud Siler's real early ones..... ;) I didn't notice until I saw the fly. Anyway, That sure is a nice gun.

I looked through all the barrels I have on hand, but nothing suitable. BTW, That blown down cherry is going to be 4 or 5 years from being ready to stock a gun out of. If you can get the trigger guard off with out buggering everything up I can get one cast from it. I'd make the buttplate from sheet.

I'm guessing that barrel breech is about 1 1/16" to 1 1/8"?
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 05:16:33 AM: Mike PM Sent.

The more I think about it a direct copy probably doesn't makes sense. What I think a really want for this project is an interpretation with relatively available components that is the same gauge, dimensions and stock shape, which probably makes sense for my first build.

Mike Your question about the barrel measurement by the breach. i think you were asking about the barrel width by the breach plug, if so its 7/8"

Thanks again,
Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Longknife on February 26, 2017, 05:00:27 PM: Jay, Do you have this book? IT has a lot of info and pics of New England Fowlers.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/278/1/BOOK-FF-S
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: alex e. on February 26, 2017, 09:10:22 PM: Did anyone notice the size of that breechplug?
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Mike Brooks on February 26, 2017, 10:27:19 PM: That is quite a bolster!
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 27, 2017, 12:58:31 AM: Ed, I do have that book ordered and should have it this week, thanks for the recommendation

On the wood for the stock, is it possible to kiln dry recently cut/green wood? Or is it just a matter of waiting. If am interested in using this wood for a latter project should I go ahead and have it cut? I probably can look that up.

Mike and Eric you mentioned my original gun looked like it had a Siler lock. Would this be from the 1960's? Should I be worried about what I bought? I am sure that effects desirability and value as far as it being original. The person I bought this gun from approximated the date from 1770-1790.

Thanks, Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Mike Brooks on February 27, 2017, 02:30:42 AM: Siler locks are still being made today. It probably hurts the overall value of the gun since the original is missing. That wood needs to air dry for at least a year before it goes into the kiln.

It is a 1770's to 1790 gun.

Are you sure it has a 7/8" wide barrel breech?
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on February 27, 2017, 03:55:03 AM: I'm excessively suspicious, so take what I say with that in mind. The lock is definitely a Siler lock, although the exterior is fairly well done and has been modded to look more correct. What I find a bit odd is that the internal parts were all aged; why? They're obviously Siler components and no effort was made to mask that fact, so why age them? Once I see that work has been done on a piece, I immediately begin to wonder what else may have been done. Nevertheless it is a really graceful, well shaped fowler and looks very appealing.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 27, 2017, 05:34:25 AM: Thanks Mike and Eric, I guess better I know now. I am a bit disappointed of course and I am tempted to tell the seller, even though I want to keep the gun. Though I probably would not have bought the gun had I known this. I do like the shape and feel and everything else. I do appreciate your expertise and letting me know.

Here is a picture of the breach measurement. Mike is this the measurement you were talking about?

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000269.jpg&hash=8cf4b7642a8cefd9178d7f8252bcb0f17ff09d14)
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Joe S on February 27, 2017, 05:57:21 AM: Jay

Would you be willing to post a few more of your excellent photographs? I’d be especially interested in both sides of the butt with the wrist showing, and a view of the back of the butt plate. Also a good side view of the trigger guard.

One thing that I find particularly interesting is the quality of work on the side plate and trigger guard. These have obvious asymmetries and uneven filing. The person who built this gun was an accomplished craftsman, but the quality of work on the metal does not seem to me to match the quality of work on the stock. I suspect this may just be a difference in expectations for “workman like manner“ then and now.

The barrel looks like it was blued, and the screw on the left looks like an original while the screw on the right looks modern to me. Is this correct?

Joe
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Mike Brooks on February 27, 2017, 05:01:11 PM: Wow, that breech is much smaller than I thought. Guns from this area usually have much bigger breaches.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 27, 2017, 08:20:26 PM: Joe, Thanks for the interest and I'll work on those pictures tonight. I am not sure about the originality of the side plate screws(especially if the lock is a replacement). I just don't have the knowledge/expertise. The barrel looks more browned than blued in person.

I'll post more pictures tonight,

Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on February 28, 2017, 07:28:52 AM: Joe, here are some of the pictures you asked for. I would have liked to have taken them outside in natural light, but this ended up being a long Monday for me. I hope these help.

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000279.jpg&hash=031ba201b1ead83f45af04c0351aa6ec8fb03e6f)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000278.jpg&hash=ac7329fab5ffdbd7608d7aeb8964f94d430d592b)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000277.jpg&hash=69211557acca448a23021dda42efbacf95ef8808)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000274.jpg&hash=f2effe743c96707007fe05245791e729fe1ac672)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000273.jpg&hash=842fbf33c11568955794aacf5be5b49f1dd229a3)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000272.jpg&hash=90351ac6f5b63601f7a0ed24383560173ec2899d)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000271.jpg&hash=bae01594e9e80bbb9ef42e6cba9066367c7f37e8)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2FP1000270.jpg&hash=3e668bd092cefa601e285bcd8b1aa45dab6497eb)

(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1260.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii565%2Fwhalerjay%2F63c2cbc8-0c5f-478a-9f61-63227a717e97.jpg&hash=bd80841a83e88bbb2e8ff545e8546df53a2d5c69)
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Goo on February 28, 2017, 03:59:54 PM: Quote from: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 12:42:17 AM
I have a good friend who has some big cherry trees that were knocked down on his farm last year by Hurricane Matthew. What should I look for to see if I could possibly us this wood for the stock

Bottom of the tree, center cut, include the root ball if possible, 2.5 -2.75 inches thick then you wait awhile
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Joe S on February 28, 2017, 04:04:03 PM: Thank you Jay. Much appreciated. This gun is very different from anything I've ever seen before, so I'm curious abot it.

I have a question about the comb. It looks like just above the junction of the comb and the wrist, there is actually a groove in the comb. Is that how it is? Pictures can be deceiving, and I suppose that area could actually be vertical, and not a groove.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Bob Roller on February 28, 2017, 04:15:17 PM: Quote from: Eric Kettenburg on February 26, 2017, 01:03:11 AM
Huh? Siler lock? :o

Sure looks like a Siler. The "fly"was my tip off as well as the cast mainspring.
Replacement for a crapped out original we hope.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: WadePatton on February 28, 2017, 04:34:15 PM: Quote from: Goo on February 28, 2017, 03:59:54 PM
Quote from: Jay Oliver on February 26, 2017, 12:42:17 AM
I have a good friend who has some big cherry trees that were knocked down on his farm last year by Hurricane Matthew. What should I look for to see if I could possibly us this wood for the stock

Bottom of the tree, center cut, include the root ball if possible, 2.5 -2.75 inches thick then you wait awhile

The longer the better. Heat drying may compromise the wood. The more seasons on it, the more stable it becomes. One year per inch thickness is the standard rate for air-drying wood.

It's MUCH faster/easier/surer to purchase a blank from a gun-blank sawyer/seller than to make your own.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: TMerkley on February 28, 2017, 07:21:16 PM: I'm going to ask a question, it may sound dumb.. Is it a possibility that it was first a rifle and then bored smooth? I just ask because of the missing rear sight. Maybe it was a barrel for something else first..

Just thinking
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: rich pierce on February 28, 2017, 07:23:36 PM: New England rifles look very different from the fowling pieces.
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: conquerordie on February 28, 2017, 10:15:23 PM: I know a gentleman that works on antique firearms. He will do compete restorations, or just replace a screw. Its up to the customer. I know dealers he has worked for, as well as curators from museums who have used his services. My point is there are very few 18th century firearms that do not have something replaced. To me this looks to be the case with this fowler. The lock is not the original, but restored with some skill to resemble what should be there. The really small breech also seems odd. The OP said he would not have bought this gun if he new that the lock wasn't original. The same gentleman I mentioned earlier said that unless you ask, dealers will not usually disclose any restoration have been done. Even when you do they might not. Depends on how honest they are. Some of these dealers at shows are just in it for the money, honesty has no place at the table. Just something to think about when buying original pieces.
Greg
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Jay Oliver on March 01, 2017, 06:26:27 AM: Joe, On the transition from the comb to the wrist I think you could call it grove or more like a concave transition.

I did use this forum to vent about the lock being replaced on what I thought was an all original piece. I am glad I know and again it was this forum that has help me get over it. I am still learning a lot and this was my first pre-1800 gun. I'll know to look more carefully and ask more questions next time. I think for what I paid I got a very nice gun. I am going to attempt to copy this fowler for my first build.

I appreciate the suggestions and advice. Someone reached out to me who is about an hour away that I am going to meet with next Tuesday(and bring the original gun) to start the process and hopefully learn some things first hand. They have a few cherry blanks that are long enough and I'll order the barrel, which I know will take awhile.

I need to keep reading and learning which I will do.

Thanks,

Jay
Title: Re: Copying an Original Fowler – First Build
Post by: Joe S on March 01, 2017, 04:29:08 PM: Thanks Jay. I think lots of folks will be interested to see your build as it goes along, so please post pictures. Even with the replacement lock, it is still a very nice gun.