AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: David Rase on April 27, 2009, 06:51:53 AM
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After a week of admiring one of the nicest rust blue jobs I have done in a while I finally opened up the jar of Naval Jelly and grayed the parts. Having seen a lot of French gray accomplished with cold blue I was hoping to produce a gray finish that would be a little more durable then cold blue rubbed back with phosphoric acid. I decide to tray the graying process with a rust blue base. After the rust blue process was complete I worked the blue off using steel wook and Naval Jelly. It took quite a bit of elbow grease to work through the blue but I am pleased with the results. I have included a couple before and after pictures. All that is left to do is give the metal a coat of 95%/5% acetone/varnish to protect the metal. I applied 2 coats of LMF sealer to my scraped walnut Tulle stock this weekend along with the first coat of LMF finish. I will case harden the lock and screws tomorrow night, apply one more coat of finish and then I will be ready to assemble all the metal parts to the stock. A couple coats of linseed oil and a coat or two of wax and the Tulle will be finished. Hopefully in time to take to Ron Scott's Oregon Gunmakers Fair this Friday.
DMR
The rust blued barrel
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcbfwLQ%2FDSCF1000.jpg&hash=9eab0661c64eac873bc7ab0033f69709f8269ce4) (http://ibb.co/j3CnS5)
The grayed barrel
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfukffQ%2FDSCF1003.jpg&hash=d15e9e1fb773f162c1d3d8563ad4ec9aebe886be) (http://ibb.co/eFArn5)
The grayed furniture
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fg2LP75%2FDSCF1009.jpg&hash=eaf2daf260dcf82cf5b81082d76e4be0a385589c) (http://ibb.co/nxHhuk)
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David,
Just curious. When you rub back your blueing, how much (%) of the blue do you think you leave behind and how do you determine when to stop?
Kevin
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Looks great Dave, ill have to pick your brain on the process the next time I see you
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David, the difference is profound. The Fr. grey is definitely more appropriate for the musket, based on my personal preferences, and not on any historical knowledge. But I will say, it'll be one of the nicest finished trade guns on the smoothbore trail.
The cased hardened screws will look great with the grey.
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Kevin, To the best of my knowledge, all the blue is removed. During the process you could see the blue go away at different rates so the finish was splotchy until all the blue was removed and I got down to the etched metal. I think you could gray a rust brown finish as well. I am not convinced that the time I spent boiling the parts was needed.
Taylor, And that would be the Oliver smoothbore match on Wednesday? I will be there.
Looks like another thing I learned was that objects in a picture are much clearer when they are taken in the vertical or horizontal position and not kitty corner.
DMR
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Yeah - maybe Taylor will French Grey his Brown Bess and I'll use that one on the 'Oliver' - HA!
I'll have my French Greyed Rifle there as well , but it's for the ctg.event.
Nice Job, Dave.
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David,
A follow up question. You stated "To the best of my knowledge, all the blue is removed". If you blue it, then remove all of it, what is the purpose of the blueing in the first place? Does it change the texture of the finish?
Cheers,
Kevin
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Very nice job.
I was somewhat surprised at someone here or elsewhere calling a "boiled in bleach" treatment "French Gray" which it is not.
Dan
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David,
A follow up question. You stated "To the best of my knowledge, all the blue is removed". If you blue it, then remove all of it, what is the purpose of the blueing in the first place? Does it change the texture of the finish?
Cheers,
Kevin
Kevin, That is the conclusion I came to, the rust bluing changes the surface finish. Maybe the phosporic acid wash helps matt the finish also. I am sure ther is a smart member of this board that can enlighten myself as well as the rest of the board on how this all works. All I know is that I like the results. I encourage any and all feedback on the process. Education is what a major part of this forum is about.
DMR
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The browning or bluing will undoubtedly etch the surface, adding to the final finish. Without the first treatment, the second would not have the same result.
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Daryl is correct, it's all about the surface. The rust bluing microscopically pits the surface and the carding between coats also evens out little imperfections in the polishing. When you remove the old bluing, the acid in the stripper - David used Naval Jelly, you can use about any acid you want, I've used dilute HCl as well as diluted Acetic acid - also etches the surface slightly. Any you don't get the same result by just acid etching a polished, unblued surface. The problem with the polished, unblued surface is that it is very difficult to get the etch even, some of the surface of the steel seems to be "cleaner" than other parts and the acid will start to cut there first. This will be true even if you clean the barrel immediately after polishing it and have not applied any oil to the polished surface. David talks about the amount of work it was to remove the old blue with the Naval Jelly. It will come off in few minutes, with little rubbing with 10% HCl.
Tom
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i am very new, first build,the reason i called boiled in bleach fr gray was that another member called it that.
if i didn,t fr gray my lock what did i do, but create a very interesting finish?
is it correct?
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Bleach is usually used to create an aged surface. It starts differentially on the metal depending on pits, polishing scratches, grain flow, etc. and gives what amounts to an uneven surface somewhat like you would get through corrosion over time. French greying if done appropriately gives a very even surface. You can take finely engraved parts, do a French grey and not loose details of the engraving. Boiling in bleach would have drastic effects on the engraving, none of them good. Although I've done lots of rust bluing on high end projects, both traditional and modern, I've not rust blued before doing a French grey like David did. as rust bluing can create more microscopic pits in the surface than would be desirable for a fine French grey on an engraved, high grade firearm. On the other hand, such surface texturing was entirely appropriate for David's project. The whole point of the initial bluing, whether it is a rust blue, hot caustic blue or good cold blue seems to be to provide a chemically bound surface that the acid etch will work on very uniformly.
Tom
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Projeeper,
I've built lots of guys and I would have called it a French Gray finish. Any gray colored metal to me is French Gray.
What's the difference guys?
Ken
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i am very new, first build,the reason i called boiled in bleach fr gray was that another member called it that.
if i didn,t fr gray my lock what did i do, but create a very interesting finish?
is it correct?
Projeeper, I believe what you were doing with boiling your parts in bleach/water was artificial aging. Hershel House demonstrated the technique in his gun building video from American Pioneer Video. This form of aging a firearm has a strong following, though there are just as many who despise the process of artificial aging a gun. Hopefully I have not opened up that can of worms again. :o
DMR
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Projeeper,
I've built lots of guys and I would have called it a French Gray finish. Any gray colored metal to me is French Gray.
What's the difference guys?
Ken
French Gray is a common finish for engraved parts.
If you had just spent a bundle on engraving I doubt you would french gray by boiling in bleach.
There are various ways. Removing the color by one means or another is common.
Dave's technique works very well and requires little change to the surface and would work on color casehardening as well.
Dan
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Dan,
Would it be appropriate to call any gray metal finish a french gray finish? I understand about the boiling in clorox because it pits the metal.
Thanks,
Ken
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Since there are many different ways to arrive at it including light bead blast, I suppose so.
Dan
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This form of aging a firearm has a strong following, though there are just as many who despise the process of artificial aging a gun. Hopefully I have not opened up that can of worms again. :o
DMR
Danger! Dave Rase. Danger!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2Frobot1.gif&hash=0f5da8a916e8bd5efa8eaaa00e805a086cbe67d6)
Sorry couldn't resist..
Dan
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Thanks, I really did not know and have seen many finishes refered to as French Gray.
Ken
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member drdboone said that he was going to boil his lock in bleach in another disscussion on fr graying so it sounded simple enough cold blue polish back,boil in bleach. which is exactly what i did what came out of the pot was bad,it was a hard black crusty so bad i thought i had ruined the lock,a good soaking in naval jelly and a lot of scrubbing a few hours later i now have a very nice flat gray with 85-90 % frost that i like
i guess the saying even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then
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Nasty like this?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi7.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy298%2FPackdog1%2FGeneral%2FRustingProcess3.jpg&hash=c85ba060e02ef1eb16072fd96a9e74e2a1fd96ef)
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member drdboone said that he was going to boil his lock in bleach in another disscussion on fr graying so it sounded simple enough cold blue polish back,boil in bleach. which is exactly what i did what came out of the pot was bad,it was a hard black crusty so bad i thought i had ruined the lock,a good soaking in naval jelly and a lot of scrubbing a few hours later i now have a very nice flat gray with 85-90 % frost that i like
i guess the saying even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then
I had never heard of bluing a part and then boiling it in clorox, I have heard of coating the part with paste blue and then soak it in straigt room temperature clorox. This gives you a milder etch.
DMR
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I like what you are doing here,DAVE RASE! Show us the barrel trans and muzzle,k? How long is that barrel? Guessing it's looong. BTW,I 'm not sure how you pronounce your name, but to me you are Dave RAZE!...sorry,that's just how it is.
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David, before and after are both beautiful. I'd have had a tough time removing that nice of a rust bluing job.
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I like what you are doing here,DAVE RASE! Show us the barrel trans and muzzle,k? How long is that barrel? Guessing it's looong. BTW,I 'm not sure how you pronounce your name, but to me you are Dave RAZE!...sorry,that's just how it is.
Roy, The name is pronounced RayCee. I've been called a lot worse then RAZE so no apology necessary. I applied the last coat of finish to the stock this evening. All the metal except the lock is complete. I completed polishing the lock and blocking the plate this evening so tomorrow I will color case harden the lock and screws and then polish those pieces back to gray. I have taken Thursday off from work to assemble the gun. It will be complete just in time to take to the Oregon Gunmakers Fair on Friday. If time permits I will post pictures Thursday.
DMR
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ken guy
oh yeah nasty like that
a few hours with a toothbrush and some naval jelly. i don,t mind the extra work for the end results i just wished someone had warned me what to expect what was going to come out of the pot
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That looks good, I just used the jelly on polished parts in an uneven applicartion to get a bit of wear effect , it works for me, doesn't look 200 years old. I think the true French grey is a later finish probably 19th century?