AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Cory McArtor on August 18, 2017, 12:14:21 AM
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I'm in the process of trying to find and acquire my first longrifle. I like the idea of a flintlock (might as well go with the older way if I want to go with the old way). But my friend who shoots percussion seems to think that flintlocks are much less reliable than percussion rifles. How much truth is there to that? If one is more reliable than the other, how big a difference is it?
Thanks for the help.
Cory
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I don't know what much less reliable means but if you know how to seal up the pan you can make a flintlock almost sure fire IMHO. Then there is the task of putting a cap on the nipple in the rain or when it's below zero. I have done both as many others here on this forum have too but a lot here prefer flintlocks because they have learned how to manage them.
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Quality of and fit of the lock is everything.
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I am one of those that think the flintlock is more reliable as long as its a well built gun with a good high quality lock . Once you shoot one enough an get used to that particular guns likes an dislikes then you can make a flinter go off in any conditions, I have 8 flintlocks an 1 percussion. Even in rainy damp conditions its the flintlock that goes with me. I have that much confidence in them. Get a well built flint gun an you'll never look back
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It also depends on how much care, e.g., cleaning, you lavish on the gun, be it cap- or flint- lock, after it has been fired. I shoot with some folks who don't maintain their rifles (both kinds of locks) well and have too many failures to fire for my taste.
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Your friends probably aren't died-in-the-wool flintlock shooters. Many of us are. I trust the collective wisdom of those who do shoot flintlocks over those who do not. Where "shoot" means compete on paper/trails as well as hunt and plink.
Never having one but only shooting one once many years prior, with a smattering of caplock experience, I built a flinter and love it. I have no desire to ever own another caplock. At all. Reliability has never cost any game with this gun. Nor has it caused problems with targets.
Maybe you go rocklock, get good at the care and feeding of it, and then go convert your not-so-enthusiastic friends.
We'll help. 8)
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For what it`s worth. At the local shoots , I`ve seen many more percussion shooters working on their rifles than I have flint. I prefer flint so, maybe I notice the perc. guys more! . JMHO Nate
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I agree with all of the above, but will add my 2 cents.
Flintlocks are more fun.
If the good Lord had meant for us to shoot caplocks, He would have scattered caps on the ground, instead of flints.
-Ron
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Back in the 80's I was at a shoot and it started to rain. The cap lock guys figured they had the match won as everybody knows flint guns won't work in the rain. With in 5 minutes all the cappers were out of action with guns that wouldn't go off and all the flint fellas were still shooting. ;D
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I have a few of both in the house, and shoot whichever rifle I'm in the mood for that day.
I have far fewer ignition failures out of my flinters, than with the caplocks. We're not talking big numbers here with either style: just a lower percentage of the total, with the rocklocks.
And, that's in Northern NV - high desert - where I really don't do much shooting in what anybody else would call "good" weather (dry, clear and warm): if it's a purty day here, the fire danger's too doggone high to be shooting out in the brush.
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For what it`s worth. At the local shoots , I`ve seen many more percussion shooters working on their rifles than I have flint.
It's the same at my club. Go for the flint--those nipple-huggers are just a passing fad.
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I've had the same experience as Mike. We were having a meat shoot and the skies opened up all the flint shooters stayed on the line loading from the bag and horn moving from 25 yrd to 50 yrd targets and finished our round the caplocks made it thru a few shots but all dropped out. We took home the hams.
As long as you keep shooting and swab out the pan occasionally flint wins
Kevin
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I agree with all of the above, but will add my 2 cents.
Flintlocks are more fun.
If the good Lord had meant for us to shoot caplocks, He would have scattered caps on the ground, instead of flints.
-Ron
Amen! Since I bult my first flintlock I rarely even shoot any thing more modern. All my hunting is done with flintlocks. Like Ron said, way more fun!
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In our club in middle Tennessee I see as many misfires in percussion guns as I do flintlocks. In a rain storm I got my rock crusher to go off and finish the shoot. Many cap guns did not. One can find flint everywhere. Percussion caps aren't available in the woods. Learn to shoot a flintlock and be happy evermore.
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percussion. What's that??
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When I lived in Idaho, I hunted elk with a flintlock, had a friend who
swore by his custom build percussion rifle, after suffering many misfires
with said percussion rifle, he would say..how come you never have these isssues...
my response was it's a flintlock that's why...we hunted in some pretty bad weather..
one Christmas his wife surprised him with a custom built flintlock rifle she had me
build for him, after just one hunt, he was like I should have done this year's ago,
flintlock are so much easier to care for
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It's the same at my club. Go for the flint--those nipple-huggers are just a passing fad.
[/quote]
Yup! They have not been fully weaned yet! ;D
Once you get to know a good flintlock rifle or smooth bore, you'll never look back!
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Over 50 years ago I bought 3 books called "The American Gun" and in Volume 1,#2 is an
article titled "Fuses,Flints and Pyrites" by Robert Held.It starts with a man who can't afford a
flintlock so he uses his match lock to hunt with.
The story continues thru the "Golden Age" of the flintlock and the incredible work of the top lock filers
of London making "sure fire" locks with tiny corrosion proof pans and faster than ever mainsprings.
All of this fine lock making was an attempt,successful for a while to obstruct the oncoming fulminate
detonating compounds that were making inroads on the use of flints for ignition of black powder.
The story ends with the grandson of the man who had the match lock buying a new percussion double gun
from the celebrated shop of James Purdy.
Also mentioned are hunts in extreme winds that bent strong trees and blew the priming out of the pans
of the finest locks so the percussion gun was the next step.An objection to the percussion system was
the one that said wars would be even bloodier than ever with a more reliable way to discharge a gun.
Today we shoot black powder for sport and fun. I like the flintlocks and my favorite black powder
rifles are the long,plainer than a broom stick Southern Long Rifles with a flintlock.The other is an English
made long range rifle by a top maker that is capable of hitting a target over 1000 yards away.Two extremes
for sure but they're my choice like my choice in old cars,a Model "A" Ford and a Model "J" Duesenberg.
The progression from the smoldering rope to the center fire has been a long one and we can regress now
and accept the challenges that were mandatory in whatever time frame we choose. I'm comfortable with
flint or percussion.
Now,time to leave for the CLA Show in Lexington,Ky. which is only 120 miles away.
Bob Roller
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This is an interesting and informative thread. As I have used neither in rainy, wet weather I would ask; why does the caplock fail more frequently in those conditions.
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Thanks for all the responses. It seems the general opinion is that if I get a quality flintlock and am taught to use it correctly then it should function as well or better than most percussion rifles. That is good to hear, especially as someone wanting to learn to shoot and hunt with flintlocks. But it leaves me wondering why the flintlock was replaced by a system that didn't perform significantly better.
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And besides here in the flintlock only hunting season..........yup
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Don't ask that because now you're asking these guys to prove it, that could be a problem. These guys just like flintlocks and like to build flintlocks that's all.
Flintlocks are not more reliable in any way shape or form.
But during that era in vast remote areas the flintlock ruled because you didn't need store bought percussion caps or those funny looking self contained cartridges to make them work.
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But if you want something historical, buy a flintlock. Through all the major conflicts in the forming and infancy of America the flintlock was there.
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Thanks for all the responses... But it leaves me wondering why the flintlock was replaced by a system that didn't perform significantly better.
Caplocks worked better when flash paths were properly maintained and good quality caps were available. The locks are simpler, faster ignition is possible, and the cap is now called a primer in the brass hickey thingamajig.
But the usage of Flintlocks spanned a much greater time, they are not so fussy to keep working properly, and ANY dry powder can be used to prime the pan. It matters not what happened to your supply of caps. One must have powder to load his gun, and a little tad more to fire it (FL). One can have a keg of powder and be SOL with a caplock.
As I see it ultimate hard-times functionality of a well-known design is what stretched FL popularity well past the "expiration date" in the woods and cabins of America (and other lands I'm sure). There may have been some old-timers who trusted their dusty old mules over the new "trick pony".
Also, put a little "mother nature" into the shooting events and FL take no second seat to Cappers. Shooting skills once again become most important, not lock time. I witnessed this just a few years ago at a blustery chunk event. FL's ruled.
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A well written response Bob .
I shoot both as well and enjoy both .
I have always had more misfires with flint but I have only been using flint the last couple of years and am just getting the hang of running one .
A good lock is everything in a flinter as is the right touchhole .If I were going to get a longrifle flint is more fun and looks so much better without question .In a later style percussion looks OK .Capping one in the winter is never a problem if you have a capper.
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well you get people like this, "I've been shooting black powder for 40 years and never used a nipple pick" yea. that's probably why your rifle doesn't go off.
Or,
"I think these nipples are defective I need to drill them out so I don't get all those hang fires and misfires I've been getting lately." Have you tried buying a pick?
The percussion crowd seems to me a whole lot less experienced. And there's the trouble.
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Meshach Browning made his living hunting deer and bear in the wilderness on the Maryland / Virginia (now WV) border in the beginning of the 19th century. In his autobiography (fascinating reading) he relates an instance where he borrowed his son's caplock while his flintlock was being repaired. It had gotten "out of order". During a hunt he relates the difficulties experienced with the cap buster, and spilling the caps out of the cap box and loosing them in the deep snow. He seemed anxious to get his flinter back.
If reliability is the only issue get an inline, or a cartrdge rifle.
The difference for me is like hearing a steam whistle. I'll run down to the grade to watch the steam locomotive go by but hardly turn my head for a droning diesel.
The steam loco properly maintained and run will still do the work it was intended for. Same for the flintlock, and both with much more grace and style than their modern replacements.
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The biggest reason the caplock replaced the flintlock, is simple economics. It took a highly trained technician a lot of time to build a high quality flintlock, while a functioning caplock could be built very quickly by a craftsman with marginal skills.
Hungry Horse
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The biggest reason the caplock replaced the flintlock, is simple economics. It took a highly trained technician a lot of time to build a high quality flintlock, while a functioning caplock could be built very quickly by a craftsman with marginal skills.
Hungry Horse
Makes sense to me.Compare a cap lock used on American rifles with a London made flint lock
and vast be the gulf that separates. Even with cast plates,cocks and frizzens the rest of the
lock is done by a craftsman long out of an apprentices training.The romanticized idea of hacking
plates,cocks and frizzens out of a chunk of iron is nonsense. Lynton McKenzie told me of seeing
superbly made wooden masters for use in fine sand casting for these high quality locks and the
castings produced were filed and detailed by skilled people or advanced apprentices and then
the mechanisms added by those who specialized in the needed skills.
Bob Roller
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...get a quality flintlock...
By all appearances, people who have negative opinions about flintlocks probably had or knew someone who had a cheap production flintlock. The locks on these guns vary in their functionality, but on average, work OK and go off...mostly. Personally, I never owned a production flintlock but heard all the "warnings" against flintlocks in general when I was starting. Despite these "warnings", I built a flintlock from a reputable supplier and haven't had any issues...
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The Reverend Alexander Forsyth, was a bird hunter and wanted a faster lock time and to reduce the flash from the pan, which startled the birds.
I guess this is like a Chevy enthusiast going to a Mustang convention. You're not welcome here.
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Historically, the caplock had such a brief period of popularity that was smashed between the long history of the flintlock and the rise of self contained cartridges that it was in the context of the history of firearms like a blink of an eye.
But one fascinating part of the caplock was the rise of the English hunter exploring the vast remote areas of Africa and India with their Purdey and Westley Richards among others double barreled rifles. Fascinating reading.
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I have found my flintlock firearms to be exceptionally reliable. The cap locks are wonderful , but reliability depends on a number of things [ as does a flintlock ]. Breaching type, lock springs, lock type. My fastest and most reliable cap lock rifle is an under hammer.
However, even it has suffered from less than reliable caps at times.
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"I guess this is like a Chevy enthusiast going to a Mustang convention. You're not welcome here."
WRONG. But if you've not spent any time with a good flintlock or Ford, you'll not personally know you'll just be following someone else who may not have learned from experience but from others spouting misinformation.
TC
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The few time that I have actually driven to a shoot which for me is a long drive I saw it with my own eyes an heard it with my own ears. The few flint guns that were there (5 or 6 including mine. The rest were cap locks) were lots more reliable firing than some of the cap guns. The caps would pop but no boom. My flinters fire reliably AS LONG as there is a good sharp flint in the jaws. Its up to you to learn when to change /sharpen a flint an if it misfire due to that it not the guns fault
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I have a question for Mr. Roller. Years ago I bought a bunch of old surplus percussion hammers, and tumblers from Turner Kirkland. They came from some long forgotten warehouse in Europe, and knowing Turner he got them for scrap price. The hammers, and tumblers, showed all the signs of being drop forged. Was this common, or was this a procedure that came into being on the tail end of the percussion era?
Hungry Horse
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"I think these nipples are defective I need to drill them out so I don't get all those hang fires and misfires I've been getting lately." Have you tried buying a pick?
The percussion crowd seems to me a whole lot less experienced. And there's the trouble.
I'm sure most of the first-time ML buyers gravitate to percussion, thinking they'll be "easier" or "more reliable": I know I did, and that's what the chain stores all have hanging in stock, for just that reason.
And, not having anyone around to show me how and why to properly clean the breech of the rifle(s) I had was another big issue: despite my best efforts at picking, cleaning, etc, I had to learn a lot of what works, and why, right here, as folks posted threads that pertained to the breech designs I actually had in my rack, and I'm sure that had/has a lot to do with the comparative reliability I see in my rifles. Some of the factory production guns designed to target the entry-level market come with breeches that just almost CAN'T be accessed with a pick or a scraper, and they're GOING to plug up pretty quick.
Another issue I have, personally, is the quality of lock design and their internal parts, in my own percussion rifles, compared to the flint locks I've been buying since I decided to try going that route: coil springs and pot metal internals just ain't agonna match up to a Chambers or Long lock, and that all goes right back to the inexperienced first-time buyer with no Black Powder Daddy standing right next to him at the gun store: those El Cheapo brand imports LOOK like they should work, so... ;)
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Hi,
Back in the 1830s, the British Board of Ordnance worked on developing and testing percussion ignition for their small arms. They did a lot of testing that compared the accuracy and performance of flint and percussion small arms under field conditions. Their results overwhelmingly supported percussion ignition with respect to both accuracy and reliability under battle conditions. The gain in accuracy was because of little loss of gas pressure from percussion locks and fast and hot ignition compared with flintlocks. However, they also noted that loading and then capping was slower than priming and loading a flintlock. They also noted that percussion guns performed much better during wet conditions. Nonetheless, the results were for shooting under battle conditions in which the guns were rough handled and little time was spent on care between shots. Today, we are not fighting battles with muzzleloaders and we usually have time to care for our guns, to clean vent holes, dress flints, wipe pans and frizzens, have coned vent liners in our barrels, etc. All of which helps make flintlocks very reliable. In addition, my impression is that flintlock shooters tend to know more about their guns and effects of weather conditions than many percussion gun shooters. Many neophyte muzzleloader shooters choose percussion first and their inexperience tends to bias results of comparisons with flintlock shooters. Anyway, the components in the ignition system are more accessible to flint shooters and problems are easier to fix compared with percussion locks and breeches. With care, flintlocks are easily as reliable as percussion locks and any loss of accuracy due to gas escape is probably very small provided ignition is hot and quick. Flintlocks are also just a lot more fun to shoot.
dave
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I was lucky as my first flint gun I built myself with a siler lock, it was always dependable as all my flintlocks have been. If I pull the trigger and they don't go off it's my fault, one sort of neglect or another due to pure laziness. ::)
I have had percussion guns, they work fine, but you have to keep the breeches very clean....sort of like a flint gun I suppose, "some maintenance required" ;).
Now, when it starts to rain I just go home and don't worry about ignition, cap or flint..... ;D
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Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators, you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.
Bull.
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Of course not, it is far superior!
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With all the modern tech. we got has no tests been ran on flint vs. cap lock time?
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Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators, you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.
Bull.
With similar experience levels I'd say yes, no doubt. Oh, and this caveat, the flint gun has to be built by a competent flintlock gun builder with a properly built high quality lock and a correctly installed vent liner.
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With all the modern tech. we got has no tests been ran on flint vs. cap lock time?
It has been done - one (person) only has to shoot them both, to see the difference. A very fast flinter is slower than a even a cheap cap gun.
When shooting trap with a caplock shotgun compared to a flinter, if you shoot the flinter the same as the cap-lock, you will hit VERY few birds in comparison - this is due entirely to lock time.
The cap gun is shot the same as if you were shooting a modern gun, that is on catching the bird, you slap the trigger as the front sight or bead touches the bird. The speed of the swing will automatically give you the proper lead s the gun passes the bird on the continued swing.
With a flinter, you have to pass the bird by a foot or more before slapping the trigger. The lock on my smoothbore is a very nice fast firing Siler lock.
Slapping the trigger on the bird the same as done with a cap-lock, will guarantee a miss. Yet, I've easily shot 10 straight with the flinter, by passing the bird by a foot before slapping the trigger. Much, of course, depends on the bird's direction of travel. I am referring to shots about 45 to 65 degree angles. The lead gets shorter with tighter angles to 90 degrees, but then up and down, climbing or dropping comes more into the equation.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnwUeMk%2FAHunkeler20bore010_zps3e135d41.jpg&hash=0fb80320f0194b3c4b3856974e64ff12b120472d) (http://ibb.co/g9FKMk)
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Hmmm, not doubting you but my skeet scores are all the same, flint, cap and cartridge, makes no difference. I don't think I make any allowances for lock time.
And yes, cap guns are faster than flint. But, I've shot some awfully fast flint guns in my time. ;)
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Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators, you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.
Bull.
I will say that for me and my experience, with both percussion and flint, the guns that I have built/owned with Chambers Flintlocks have been as dependable or more so than the percussion's that I have owned. I have used mostly late Ketland locks on rifles and the Colonial Virginia on fowlers, also a couple of Early Ketlands on early rifles. My hunting rifle has a regular Siler and I believe that lock would almost ignite under water, it is VERY dependable I can not remember the last time it miss-fired.
I will not say that about other flintlocks that I have used. One or two have been fairly good but many of them have been terrible and very undependable and I will not mention the makers.
Now most of the percussion's that I have owned had drum and nipple which is not the ideal set-up for dependability and I will admit that I built one of Don Stith's squirrel rifles with a Hawken style breech and it was very dependable.
Dennis
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I have a question for Mr. Roller. Years ago I bought a bunch of old surplus percussion hammers, and tumblers from Turner Kirkland. They came from some long forgotten warehouse in Europe, and knowing Turner he got them for scrap price. The hammers, and tumblers, showed all the signs of being drop forged. Was this common, or was this a procedure that came into being on the tail end of the percussion era?
Hungry Horse
HH,
I don't know when drop forged parts came to common use but I would
guess that Europe was ahead of us industrially at that time. There were
a lot of locks imported that sold for little money. Turner had a LOT of
these when I worked there in the HOT summer of 1958 and I cleaned
and made them operational.These were all caplocks.
Bob Roller
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Cory
I have quite few percussion rifles and shotguns, and I love them.
I have owned a couple of flintlocks and have in the past year picked up a .40 and a .54 that I had built for me.
I love both flintlocks and both are very well made.
Making my transition to flinters has been a little difficult. The lock time is much slower than percussion and I need to practice more with them. I cant shoot very well with them off hand, but my time to do so is so limited it is not the fault of the rifles.
I love my flinters and I hope to become a much better flintlock shooter.
A percussion gun is easier for me to shoot accurately.
Fleener
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Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.
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Having never shot a percussion, I can't offer any first hand experience. I have had the opportunity to allow several people to shoot a flintlock for the first time. Before shooting, they told me about the "delay" they expected. After shooting, they all said something like, "Man, That went off so fast. I wasn't expecting it."
But I think it probably had more to do with the trigger. Right or wrong, I always try to get a very light pull with the set trigger. I try to get a good pull set or unset.
Since I started shooting my flintlocks, I've done more target shooting than I ever did before. I get used to "My" triggers. When I shoot someone elses' gun, I really have to get used to their trigger pull. This is super evident with production guns. I can't believe how hard I have to squeeze the trigger sometimes.
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Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.
I am wondering about the quality of percussion caps now available at the
highest prices in history.There is a German that comes to Friendship for
the Fall Shoot and he uses a Gibbs/Pedersoili long range .451 to shoot
the 500 yard event.He uses the hot German RWS caps. On caplock guns,
my test is to put a dry patch in the muzzle and fire the cap and if it blows
the patch out then I know the vent is clear.His Gibbs failed this test but
went off every time he loaded and pulled the trigger. He told me that he
had misfires with American made caps but never had them with the RWS.
If you shoot caplocks as a regular thing,try the dry patch test and see if
the caps you are using have enough energy to blow it out of the muzzle.
If it won't,check the vent or channel to the main charge or buy better caps
if they're available.
Bob Roller
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Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.
I see that also but they're always the less experienced shooters that haven't been shooting long enough or are not interested enough to acquire the 'tackle box' full of possibles needed to run one of these rifles.
"My pick will not go in the lower hole no matter what I try." "Because what you bought is a flash hole pick for a flintlock and not a nipple pick for a percussion." "Oh, but the guy at Walmart said there wasn't any difference."
Or, you see them come to the range with their classic, plastic 'Starter kit' they just got at Cabela's because it came FREE with the rifle.
I could go on and on.
What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.
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...What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.
That's the conclusion I was babbling towards.
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That could be said for all types of guns,user error is almost always the problem be it neglect or not putting time in to learn its ins and outs.
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In the hunt camp, under adverse conditions, is when the virtues of a flintlock become apparent. Or, at a shooting match during our humid summers. Then vent allows extremely close access to the main charge. It's easy to make sure that vent is clear, and the pan is wiped of "fouling soup " in wet or humid conditions. Given that the lock is a quality one, the sparks created almost guarantee ignition. The path to the charge in most percussion rifles is more convoluted, the exception being under hammer and the side slapper types. The quality of the cap is a variable, but my under hammer target rifle rivals my flinters for reliability. That came only after I switched to the nipples with the vent hole on the side.
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I have found that in muzzleloading it pays to have "tinkerer" and "gunsmith" somewhere in your blood to get a gun shooting reliably. Once you work out the bugs, I think both lock types can be reliable. I will allow in a pinch that I LIKE flintlocks a lot more. I agree on that fact that the Good Lord left rocks on the ground for us, not primers. :-D God Bless, Marc
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Noticed this thread after returning from the CLA show. When shooting a flintlock your in full control. With a percussion. Your depending on that mean made cap. Is it going to work or isn't it? JM2C. Oldtravler
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...What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.
That's the conclusion I was babbling towards.
I would have to respectfully disagree! Most of the men shooting in the local shoots have been shooting for years, and, when someone is having a problem with a rifle , the majority of the time it is a perc. These aren't the Walmart value pack guys, these are people at a rifle competition , that aren't beginners for the most part. Some are newcomers as well but , not the majority .
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Cory
By now you must realize most of the posters on ALR really like flintlock guns. Most of them have been mad since they learned that most of the world dummed up in the early eighteen hundreds and converted their flintlocks to the most unreliable system invented. And then to top it off they made these unreliable percussion guns by the thousands thereby endangering every soldier, hunter, mountain man, or settler that owned one of these unreliable contraptions. How could they be so stupid. I haven't shot or used anything but a flint gun for years but I hunted and shot a percussion gun for about thirty years, I never had a misfire that I can recall except when I forgot to put owder in the rifle. Both work fine when properly.maintained. Tim
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That info plus the fact that one horrible,bloody war was fought with caplocks and percussion
revolvers right here says otherwise.I have heard no complaints about caplock reliability until recently.
I still think the quality of caps has fallen in America and that the German made RWS are
considered as being too "hot" by some shooters.I have been told that percussion caps are made on
the same equipment as primers for center fire guns and that there may be a lapse in quality control.
I do not know how true this is and haven't bought caps for years and still have some I bought from
E.M.Farris in 1964.
Bob Roller
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I own and shoot mostly flintlocks and hunt with them exclusively. But I do have a couple of good cap guns and have probably owned more of these than flints. While I have had few ftf, most have been with percussion; rarely traceable to the cap, though. With flintlocks it is usually a dull flint; also an easy fix. I trust my flintlocks as much as I trust any percussion.
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I own and shoot mostly flintlocks and hunt with them exclusively. But I do have a couple of good cap guns and have probably owned more of these than flints. While I have had few ftf, most have been with percussion; rarely traceable to the cap, though. With flintlocks it is usually a dull flint; also an easy fix. I trust my flintlocks as much as I trust any percussion.
The most satisfactory black powder rifle I ever owned was a Whitworth/Henry .451 long range rifle.
I shot it a lot over the 11 years I owned it and NEVER had a misfire or hang fire.DuPont 3fg and
Remington #12 caps.I still have 2 unopened round boxes with the green band and all that pretty lettering and white laquer.
I still think the caps now are not as hot or reliable as what I used from 1962 until 1973 when I sold the Whitworth.
Bob Roller
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If I've correctly read the responses, there is a general feeling that flintlocks can be as reliable as percussion rifles if properly cared for and when used correctly. That satisfies my curiosity. As long as they are reliable enough to hunt with (which it sounds like they are) I would much rather get a flintlock than a percussion, at least for my first one. Hopefully it won't take me too much longer.
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Cory
Sounds like you made an informed decision and I'm glad you chose flint they are more fun and more of a challege to shoot. You'll feel a lot of satifaction when you do well with one whether it is simply target shooting or hunting with one. A bit of advice before you commit to purchase a flintlock,if you have shot one before disregard this, but if you haven't try to find a good well made flint rifle and shoot it some. I have friends that have tried for thirty years to shoot a flint and they just cannot do it. When they pull the trigger on a flint gun before it goes off their head is under their left arm pit. But these same guys will shoot your eyes out with a percussion gun. Heck I might even shut my eyes every once in a while shooting a flint rifle. Good luck welcome to the addiction. Tim
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If I've correctly read the responses, there is a general feeling that flintlocks can be as reliable as percussion rifles if properly cared for and when used correctly. That satisfies my curiosity. As long as they are reliable enough to hunt with (which it sounds like they are) I would much rather get a flintlock than a percussion, at least for my first one. Hopefully it won't take me too much longer.
Problems with flinters usually ONLY happen after a lot of shots without ANY attention to the flint.
The first few shots ALWAYS go off perfectly - which is when the gun has been cared for deliberately. When walking a trail, I load and shoot, load and shoot, load and shoot - 30, 40 50 times THEN I might have a flash in the pan or complete fail to throw sparks due to dull flint, or perhaps due to a piece of fouling blocking the vent. This never happens for the first - or 10th shot, for that matter.
I don't have any troubles with my cap-lock, either, unless I load without powder in either gun - THAT has happened. It's quicker to clear that load with a flinter, though, as dribbling a bit of 4F through the vent, seating the ball all the way down and firing it off, is faster than removing the nipple, dribbling in some 3 or 2F and replacing the nipple, then capping and popping it out.
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I can put numbers to the question about flint and percussion ignition speeds. Steve Chapman and I used a small siler percussion, mule ear built on a small siler sized plate, and a small siler flint. We timed them using a pistol stock from Jim Chambers. Time started with a sear touch and stopped with fire at the muzzle of a short barrel stub. Twenty trials were done and an average calculated. Working from memory, the percussion times were app. .020 seconds. The flint was app. .070 sec.
This is somewhat misleading without breaking the times down a bit. The times from sear to pan ignition on many flint guns run from .0370 - .0450 sec. (The best ever is an original Manton was timed at .0299). But the time from pan ignition to barrel ignition must be added. Some of the best were timed at .035 - .039 seconds. The percussion barrel ignited in the .020 sited before. So, I feel confident saying that a flint barrel ignition is about .050 slower than a percussion. Obviously these numbers vary with different locks.
Regards,
Pletch
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Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. For me, I like the idea that if I loose my flint I can most likely find a rock and make it work. And like some have already said, the flintlock is much more fun!
One of our club members told about a match they used to have where all shooters had to forfeit their flints, then find a substitute on the ground. First to fire his rifle won the match.
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Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. . . . snipped. . . .
I have no problem with your comment. My only reason for posting this was the comment above asking why, with modern tech don't we have a comparison of flint/percussion ignitions. I'm a fan of flintlocks - a well-made lock that makes this kind of sparks is a joy to use:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fkshj7Q%2FIMG_2770.jpg&hash=50bd05fed5a7d8a13ea2a93b9a4e1df8d534bd4a) (http://ibb.co/c9jxSQ)
Regards,
Pletch
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Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. For me, I like the idea that if I loose my flint I can most likely find a rock and make it work. And like some have already said, the flintlock is much more fun!
One of our club members told about a match they used to have where all shooters had to forfeit their flints, then find a substitute on the ground. First to fire his rifle won the match.
You'd be walking and looking for several hundred miles around here, we don't have any flint rocks laying on the ground in this part of Iowa. Well, I have found two places that some prehistoric knapper was knapping chert on a regular basis, but you still aren't going to just find anything to make a spark generally laying around on the ground around here....we mostly gots black dirt.
Now to the original poster, both cap and flint are reliable and you can confidently hunt with either, as long as the flint gun has a good lock and vent. If it's a cheap commercial flint gun it just won't be dependable and you'll hate it.
Shooting cap guns are very similar to shooting cartridge guns lock time wise. Flint guns are a little slower, sometimes imperceptivity, and require some time to learn how to shoot well.
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A bit of advice before you commit to purchase a flintlock,if you have shot one before disregard this, but if you haven't try to find a good well made flint rifle and shoot it some.
I'm working on that. Squirrel Pizza from this forum has offered to let me come down and teach me the ins and outs of shooting a flintlock. We just have to figure out a time that works.
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In my shooting at the range where many shots are fired - as opposed to hunting where maybe only one or two shots are fired - about the only time I get an ftf is after numerous shots; and it always seems to come down to the flint getting dull. Knapped or scraped, it's back in service. I've never worried about reliability in any of my cap or flint guns as long as I do MY job.
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Hanshi. What you said. My experience too. God Bless, Marc
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Pletch,
Haven't heard from you in a while. There is no denying that the cap lock has a faster ignition. I have fired both on the same day at the same target. My score is exactly the same. I bet Steve Chapman would do the same. He is one of the best off hand shooters around. A well tuned flintlock rifle is a magnificent piece of equipment which has given me a tremendous amount of pleasure for most of my life. I'll keep mine!!!
David Price
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David- Taylor shoots a @!*% flinter better than most people can shoot a cap gun - infuriating at times.
Only time it is not maddening, is when I beat him - to do that, I MUST shoot a cap gun - & usually my .69.
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David,
It great to hear from you. I couldn't come to CLA this year. I hope for a chance to sit down and chat with you again.
Best regards,
Pletch
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If the good Lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!! ;)
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Yes but we're talking about reliability of ignition. If a breechloader fails to go off the likely culprits are the factory cartridge including the primer or the weapons firing pin. Neither are considered operator error.
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One of the best examples of this was at a weekly shoot of app 30 shooters on the line 50%/50% flint and percussion. It started to rain and we decided to finish the shoot anyway. Shooters gradually dropped out with ignition problems, but many more percussion dropped out than flinters. I was surprised. The biggest factor was that one tiny drop down the nipple hole created an unfixable problem, but the flint problems were solvable.
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"The biggest factor was that one tiny drop down the nipple hole created an unfixable problem, but the flint problems were solvable."
Because our beloved flintlocks 'problems' are all out in the open and easy to see and work on. :-)
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If the good Lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!! ;)
Caps don't occur in nature and now the price is not natural. ;D
Bob Roller
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I know that's why whenever I hunt with my caplock I watch the weather report and only go out if there is zero percent chance of precipitation. I don't know what to do if some moisture gets down in that little tiny hole and messes everything up so I have to go home.
I need to go home, but not because its raining, I just need a higher pair of boots because its really getting deep here.
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I've hunted in the rain with both and experienced ZERO problems. Success or failure is usually in the hands of the operator.
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I'm in the process of trying to find and acquire my first longrifle. I like the idea of a flintlock (might as well go with the older way if I want to go with the old way). But my friend who shoots percussion seems to think that flintlocks are much less reliable than percussion rifles. How much truth is there to that? If one is more reliable than the other, how big a difference is it?
Thanks for the help.
Cory
i would recommend acquiring a gun with the ignition type that churns yer butter better. either type, cap or rock, will work just fine as yer fancy dictates.
this is ALL about a learning curve, and once you understand both ignition styles, and how to use each effectively, there will be no such silly thing as "flintlocks are less reliable than percussion".
if yer dream muzzleloader is a flinter, go for it and don't look back ... HOWEVER, as with most things in life, there are flintlocks that will be easier to make shoot reliably and some that will be a constant struggle. choose wisely, and since you probably don't know what that choosing entails, seek qualified help in making a flintlock acquisition decision. but above all, do enjoy! ;)
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I'm in the process of trying to find and acquire my first longrifle. I like the idea of a flintlock (might as well go with the older way if I want to go with the old way). But my friend who shoots percussion seems to think that flintlocks are much less reliable than percussion rifles. How much truth is there to that? If one is more reliable than the other, how big a difference is it?
Thanks for the help.
Cory
Little difference in hunting IF MANAGED right. I have more trouble in matches since I don't worry about the flint etc as I would hunting.
A cheap percussion is not a good idea and a cheap flintlock or a poor design will cause issues as well. Percussion in easier to shoot well due to lock time.
Dan
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I heard a rumor t'other day that they were gonna make ignition, powder and ball self contained in a small brass tube.
Don't think that'll ever stick.
I don't wanna say that the problems on our trail walks are with percussion shooters, but every percussion shooter I have shot with has had problems.
Um juss sayn
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I assume from your post that percussion shooters troubles are fairly common. What were the most common causes of failure? I am all about learning from others mistakes if possible. Thanks.
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With all the problems with percussion rifles and their unreliability makes one wonder why they won't let folks shoot them in flintlock matches. I suppose the flint shooters just don't want to take advantage of the percussion shooters. Tim
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Cap gun shooters rarely win around here.
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why not change the name of the forum to American flintlock longrifles and you wont deal with the rest of us bye
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Just start another thread why cap guns are better,no need to take your marbles and go home.Defend your position,what's wrong with folks today?
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There's really no big difference. It all depends on the quality of the firearm an it's parts. To the experience of the shooter.
To bad Ole Jim Bridger an Jeremiah Johnson are not alive today. Would really like to here their opinion. Because back then. Their lives depended on it. Oldtravler
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Would be an interesting discussion,they probably used both and perhaps when it really counted.
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I find it interesting that in some places flintlocks held on till the very early cartridge period. The Piedmont of NC comes to mind, still building flint guns easily into the 1850's Also never went out of style in the Appalachia's. Obviously some folks thought flintlocks were plenty good enough. I believe even the Mantons built the occasional flint gun in the 1840's, 20 years after the caplock took hold in England.
That's not to say there's anything wrong with a caplock. I've owned them, shot them, and liked them. Of course the same could be said with me and cartridge guns as well. I guess I like them all!
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Ditto on liking them all,variety is the spice of life.
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Well, I never met a gun I didn't like. Ahem! There have been one or two, actually.
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It's interesting how good, or perhaps the BEST of the inventions linger after 'being replaced" by more modern inventions.
As late as 1929, James (I think) Purdey & Son's was still taking orders for English Damascus shotgun barreled SXS shotguns.
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Ditto on liking them all,variety is the spice of life.
I also am comfortable with a fine flintlock rifle or an 1877 Sharps.
Bob Roller
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I like both ignition systems and have found they're both reliable. I'd suggest a person do one of two things. Pick one and stay with it, or enjoy the experience and shoot 'em both. ;)
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I assume from your post that percussion shooters troubles are fairly common. What were the most common causes of failure? I am all about learning from others mistakes if possible. Thanks.
No they're not. Don't listen to these guys they love flintlocks and no one is going to tell them that they are less reliable. They are. What they're doing is comparing a cheap percussion lock against their custom built flinters or an inexperienced operator against an experienced operator.
Everything being equal the percussion is hands down more reliable under any condition.
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I think most of the other members here would agree that I'm still somewhat of a newbie, and therefore I really don't have a dog in the flintlock vs. Caplock fight.
So for the original question, let me only answer with my observations over the past few years of shooting muzzleloaders exclusively.
I have had rifles fail to fire using caps on a good many occasions. But I have also had instances where I've had four or five misfires with a flintlock. In all cases, the fault was mainly my own. There are certain tricks that one learns in order to keep his or her rifle shooting consistently, weather percussion or flintlock.
I would venture to say that either are as reliable as you make them, using good technique and learning your rifle in and out.
The original poster should only ask himself, which rifle intrigues me? Both are historical and the many Americans who put meat on the table using flintlocks had sons and grandsons who put just as much meat on the table using percussion.
Personally, I have a hard time owning just one of anything. I suggest that you get a good Flintlock and a good percussion rifle. Each will provide their own enjoyment.
Also, don't misunderstand the guys here who advocate for flintlocks. I think they were mainly answering your question as to reliability, which is essentially what I was trying to point out. Either system can be very reliable if well maintained.
Stick around here for a while, read through old discussions and learn, learn, learn. I think muzzleloading is one of the best pastimes you could choose.
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;D
Of course the loaded-in-the-dry cap & ball gun went boom- or "splOOONK" in this case.
Now stand under the garden sprinkler wide open, with two large fans blowing erratically around, add some buck fever, and reload it and see how many shots it's good for.
Personally speaking, I love Rocklocks for their complications and functional beauty and long history (and lack of caps). They're perfectly reliable enough for all I'm going to do with them. When hunting I keep my pan protected by the greasing it up (sealing it) with tallow from the grease hole. If a raindrop finds the pan or touchhole during the firing event (after the cock travel has consumed most of the lock time), then I might not get ignition and that's a gamble I'm perfectly happy with. I'm hunting/shooting for sport not survival. Also I make it "safe" by dumping the pan and inserting a quill into the touchhole. Easy peasy.
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Flintlocks are reliable enough that I never even think about it when I go into the bush after game. Caplocks will statistically always be more reliable than flint, in the long run. Each cap is new but the flint will eventually fail and need knapping or replacing. Flintlocks need more attention and care to be reliable while a few minutes of experienced advice is all a novice shooter needs as to the operation of a percussion. I have both, have hunted with both and shot matches with both. My go-to match rifle is a 25" hand made percussion .45 with a 15/16" barrel. Before that it was a .50 X 42" X 7/8" flintlock Va rifle. Takes ya' choice.
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Hanshi Why that there statement. Tis enough to get yeah tard an feathered from this group..! WHY I just never heard of such foolishness...percussion better than flintlocks....Ridiculous...I say...
You must have been plum whacked on the noggin. To even UTTER such a foolish statement.......! Oldtravler
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Don't you know? If the good lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!!! ;)
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Don't you know? If the good lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!!! ;)
I have only found two places in Iowa where the Good Lord spread flint on the ground. Actually it was two prehistoric flint knappers. One of the sites is now under a lake...... It would be about a 45 mile walk from here every time I needed a new flint. So, I'm almost as likely to find caps on the ground around here.... :o
I have shot flint about 99% of the time, mainly for the challenge and satisfaction of doing it. I like cap locks, got no problem with them. In fact I'm thinking to build one for my self in the next year or two. Unless I start putting scopes on my guns I'm not likely to hit much with either these days.
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Caplocks are just as relevant to our firearms history as flintlocks...I just happen to be fascinated by the period in which flintlocks were predominant.
Matchlocks... the true OG (original gun). 😁
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The unreliability of caplocks encouraged the development of the cartridge. Which technically only made the flash channel shorter, and the reloading faster.
Hungry Horse
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Hanshi Why that there statement. Tis enough to get yeah tard an feathered from this group..! WHY I just never heard of such foolishness...percussion better than flintlocks....Ridiculous...I say...
You must have been plum whacked on the noggin. To even UTTER such a foolish statement.......! Oldtravler
Hmmmm...is that why a crowd of folks gathered outside my house last night? They were carrying pitchforks and burning tapers and were shouting, "hang the infidel".
In my own defense, I rarely shoot the caplocks. Only remember once in recent memory that I used a caplock - is that a defense?? At last count there were 7 flint eaters in my house and only 2 functioning - and nice ones, too - percussions. ???
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Even after I told those guys not to bring pitchforks. ooops. :-[
I had nothing to do with that mob. :-X
Since my video was edited out I'll describe it for you. A guy shot a percussion under water.
I see the percussion lock possibly a quarter step away from modern day cartridges maybe even closer. If you don't maybe you need to get a second cup of coffee when you get up.
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Don't stress yourself, crawdad; I seem to have always had some group plotting my lynching. A close friend did get lynched at camp - you had to know him in order to understand why - but a councillor cut him down in time. Uh, yes, I use to run with a...."colorful" crowd.
I could make do - actually, that's exactly what I do, come to think of it - with flintlocks, period. It's been so long since I hunted/fired anything else, I only remember that one match awhile back. Even then I tossed the targets and fired them again with my flintlock.
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The original poster should only ask himself, which rifle intrigues me? Both are historical and the many Americans who put meat on the table using flintlocks had sons and grandsons who put just as much meat on the table using percussion.
Personally, I have a hard time owning just one of anything. I suggest that you get a good Flintlock and a good percussion rifle. Each will provide their own enjoyment.
I ended up trading for a flintlock a couple weeks back. I've been busy with work and school, so I've only gone out shooting a few time (I living the city and have to drive 40 minutes or so to shoot). I love shooting it (probably more than any of my modern guns) and so do my wife and my hunting buddy. My observation so far is that it is perfectly reliable if I do the little things like wiping out the pan and making sure the flint is sharp. If I do those things, it fires every time.
To say that I'm hooked would be an understatement. I would shoot it all the time if I had a better place to shoot. I'll take it hunting in October and December If I had the money I'd look into building another, but that may have to wait.
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I'll get to hunt in WV on private land come Nov. I plan to take my .50 flintlock as the primary arm and either my flintlock smoothbore - need to do some casting as I'm out of .62 ammo - or my .45 Lancaster flintlock as my "backup". I'm expecting a fun weekend with no worries about reliability.
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I haven't been around in awhile but,I will put in a bit of Intel,there IS a reason that cap locks succeeded,history will bear that out...reliability is just a bit better and the fact that you get this reliability with less effort and less steps to pay attention to was the tie breaker,a snug nipple to cap fit sealed with a touch of grease you have a pretty water tight load even should you hunt in the rain like I often do,and I use a flintlock also,you can relax just a bit more,have you noticed,there are more caplock plains rifles ,including original Hawken rifles than flints?and a good supply of caps can be carried with little hassle,I do love my rock locks but I gotta give caps a bit higher for reliability and simplicity.i know flint hard flinters will disagree anyway but it is still true.i will have try shooting my rock locks upside down.
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I have found that reliability issues, have little to do with the ignition system being used. Reliability is equal to the amount of effort exerted in mastering any ignition system. People who have problems with caplocks do not maintain their guns properly. If you hunt in the rain or snow a cows knee is as important to a capper as a flinter.
If you only shoot once a month at your local club. It will take a long time to really get proficient with any system.
When I am back East, I shoot flint. That's what my friends shoot. Here out West I shoot both, depending on mood. Both Flint rifles and percussion rifles have their pros and cons. If you shoot either enough you will learn to deal with those issues as they arise.
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There MUST be a reason that the militaries of the world started perverting their armies to
percussion.The percussion system ushered in long range shooting and a somewhat higher
volume of fire.I have a trio of books called The American Gun and there is an article in one
called Fuses,Flints and Pyrites and the knowledgeable and arch conservatives all agreed that
the new percussion system would make war so bloody that NObody would engage in it again.
The story ends by saying the grandson of one of these oldsters was ordering a new percussion
double from the celebrated shop of Mr.James Purdy.
Bridled flash pans were credited with keeping the flint lock guns in vogue for much longer
than would have been possible with the unbridled styles that have been revived today but
now in the waning light of 2018 the flintlock is a sportsman's piece of the first rank.
Bob Roller
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Besides the percussion system being cheaper to produce, it was much easier to train a novice to use a percussion gun than it was to train someone to successfully use a flintlock gun. Most advancements are designed to make things cheaper, not necessarily better.
Hungry Horse
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I'm sure there have been studies to see which system has a faster ignition. I haven't seen them but would like to.
My own personal experience is I could never get a flintlock as fast as a caplock. I can always feel a very slight pause in a flintlock.
I believe faster is better but i'd like to know the difference between the fastest flintlock compared to the fastest caplock.
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(https://i.ibb.co/QdVWDtw/40185-EB2-D793-49-D8-BB91-2-B94-ACBE0667.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ySCz47j)
They wouldn’t make these if it weren’t true.
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They wouldn't say "Flash in the Pan" if it weren't true. :)
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:) " Flintlocks Forever " :) ;)
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Gents,
I've only read 3 pages, so am not up to speed, but has anyone here quoted Colonel Hawker on this topic?
He had some good stuff to say.
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Regarding the advancement of weapons tech: Rate of fire has nothing to do with my rifle work, BTDT got bored with it. Flintlocks remain interesting, and provide results. It's okay to prefer caps for whatever reasons, but I've yet to see any difference in the field in my small group.
My alias is Mojo Rocklock. :P
afterthought:
MOF the one guy in our "camp" with the unspeakable has twice had ignition problems-missing a big buck on both occasions-he claims, was quite upset once--but he keeps on with it and all those "improvements" despite a failure to fire and a squib shot and those lost opportunities. He might not work a flinter any better and of course he only carries the BP rig when CF is prohibited. I don't use those anymore.
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I love both locks. I do use a caplock in the half stock Hawken style guns because I believe they never came with a flintlock.
Both are fun and both work well if you pay attention to keeping everything clean and dry.
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I'm sure there have been studies to see which system has a faster ignition. I haven't seen them but would like to.
My own personal experience is I could never get a flintlock as fast as a caplock. I can always feel a very slight pause in a flintlock.
I believe faster is better but i'd like to know the difference between the fastest flintlock compared to the fastest caplock.
In years past I have timed enough locks to give you a fairly good answer. In timed tests and high speed video, a percussion will run .020 seconds. We tried a side hammer and a mule ear with pretty much the same result.
The fastest flint lock I have ever tested was an original Joseph Manton from a fouler belonging to Lynton McKenzie. A 12 trial average was .0299 - very close to the percussion. But the flint gun must ignite a pan that ignites the barrel. In testing vents and priming powder locations, the best average of 20 trials was .036 seconds - with vent liner, priming powder close to the barrel (link below). To compare directly one must add the lock time (.0299) to the vent ignition time (.036). Flint barrel ignition would be between .065 and .070 ; compared to .020 on the percussion.
I doubt if you will find a lock faster than the Manton above, so likely realistic difference might be between .050 and .065 seconds.
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/ (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/)
(Part 6 deals with high vs low vent ignition)
Regards,
Pletch
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Thanks, Larry. So, it's not my imagination. Even a good flint lock will feel slow compared to a caplock.
I kept thinking if I fooled around enough I could get a flintlock as fast as a caplock because you here guys say that all the time. I'll stop trying now.
Thanks, again.
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Flint Or Detonator?
Col Peter Hawker, "Instructions to Young Sporstmen"
"While I was using nothing but detonating guns for four seasons, it was the remark of my man, that he had never had the pleasure of seeing me make such long shots as I was once in the habit of doing, and I, ready to lay all the fault on myself, or rather to a premature attack on that Anno Domini complaint which must befall the best of us, felt that I dare not blame a system which my superiors had so universally adopted.
I took up a flint gun.
This was worse and worse; as its comparative slowness made me miss even fair shots.
The next year, however, having being prevented by illness, from taking a gun in hand till just before the end of the season, the sensation of firing a flint and a detonator became as it were De novo.
I accordingly took out a Flint gun, and Down came the long shots, as in former days!-I name this as a simple fact.
Let others argue the point as they please.
So I shall now conclude the subject by reducing the matter to a very few words.
Can you shoot well with a flint gun? Yes!.....Then leave well alone!
Can you? No! Then by all means go and get a detonator."
In the chapter on the detonating system, he says this, re. a detonator firing quicker, but not Stronger;
"Mr. Durs Egg made to me a droll but good comparison, on the ignition of detonating guns;
he said "If I were to kick a fellow out of my shop, would he go off as strong on his legs as if I allowed him to walk out?" :-)
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Flint be sharp to make good spark no damp be in the pan
pick the vent to clear the way to do the job at hand
plug the vent with feathered quill to keep the damp at bay
Do your part so carefully and the ball will find it's way
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Is that a fairly modern poem, Lobo?
I ask, as the term "vent' is used, and I always wonder why a touchhole is a vent these days....(apart from artillery, where a touchhole was Always a vent! LOL!)
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I love both locks. I do use a caplock in the half stock Hawken style guns because I believe they never came with a flintlock.
Both are fun and both work well if you pay attention to keeping everything clean and dry.
I concur wholly with your post.
Love my Hawken and love my flintlocks. Don't consider one to be superior to the other.
Thanks to Mr. Pletcher we can assume that a caplock is faster than a flintlock. I don't consider .20 seconds to mean much though.
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On opening day of pheasant season in S.E. Wyoming, I was hunting with my flintlock double in 14ga.. And as usual the wind always blows in southern Wyoming. But that day it was relentless, 20 to 25 mph steady and up to 40mph gusts.
I prime with the fff I load with, and no matter what I tried back to the wind, cupping my hand over the pan. It was really hard to keep powder in the pan. The powder would blow out of the pan, before you could close the frizzen. So a lot of misfires, and missed birds. It was one time that I wished I had taken one of my percussion guns along.
And if you are wondering what I was doing out in that kind of wind storm. This is Wyoming if you don't hunt in the wind you don't hunt.
Jerry
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I have to question the advice of Col Hawker. When I shoot a flintlock and a similar gun in caplock with the exact same load. The flint feels like a softer recoil. I assume it's because of pressure being lost out the touch-hole. I would assume this means less velocity on the ball too. I don't own a chrono to prove it though.
So, I don't see why the flint would be better for the long shot. Except, maybe a flint forces us to stay down on the shot longer. However, we can do the same with a caplock with practice and discipline.
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Pete,
Col. Hawker says percussion Recoils more than a flint with same load. ...but the flint (maybe due to lower pressure?) keeps the shot closer together, and therefore produced tighter patterns , so longer range could be achieved.
His book has lots of experiments with flint and percussion guns, even the same gun with different locks fitted. Will look some pertinent info out as time permits.
I am quite confident he had it figured out. :-)
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Ok, that makes sense.
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Sounds as if Hawker was inebriated when writing that 'work'.imho
If flintlock guns were more accurate than cap locks, the Irish would never have developed their Rigby long range cap-lock rifles
but would have had fast English locks of flint persuasion.
As well, the incredibly accurate, heavy paper patched 40 rod rifles of the States would also have been flinters - IF flint ignition was the
more accurate ignition source.
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I think they are talking about birdshot patterns.
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I always like to compare the flintlock vs. caplock debate to driving an automatic vs. manual transmission. Why are manual transmission more fun to drive? I don't know, but for those who can master them well, they just are. Perhaps that is it. When you shoot a deer with a flintlock, there is more merit in that than shooting a deer with a caplock. Are flintlocks as reliable as caplocks? In the right hands they are.
I try to impress on my kids that the achievement in hunting is not necessarily the Boon-n-Crocket score, but how you have improved your skills to achieve the goal. Some people line their walls with trophies by spending money. Others by spending time in the woods. The former is about like paying a jeweler to make a Superbowl ring for you.
You have to decide. You decide how much challenge you want. If you take on too much you can get discouraged. I often tell people to get a small bore flintlock as their introduction to flintlocks. It a whole lot easier to recover from a failure to fire when it was just a squirrel or bunny in your sights rather than a buck of a lifetime.
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This is kind of funny. earlier in the thread everyone was saying flintlocks are more reliable than caplocks.
Yet when hunting, the flintlock is more of a challenge. A bit of contradiction no?
Personally, I don't find one easier or harder than the other to hunt with. Compared to modern weapons they're both a challenge. I'm a still hunter and only take offhand shots. I don't do it for anyone else but me. I like to challenge myself. I find it rewarding.
It's all good and not important to compare to others. Do what you like best and don't brag about it.
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Well, I don't think I'd ever claim that flintlocks are inherently more reliable than caplocks. However, a flintlock in the hands of a seasoned shooter may be more reliable than a caplock in the hands of a beginner. It's the shooter, not the gun. But that is precisely why the flintlock is more satisfying to a seasoned blackpowder shooter.
The lockspeed on flintlock is a challenge with squirrels. Their run-stop-run-stop mode of going about will drive you nuts. So often the very last thing I see before the flash of the pan obscures my vision is the otherwise still squirrel lurching forward!
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That's why I need larger targets. Elk is just right for my old worn out vision.
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Daryl,
As Rich P said above.
Neither myself or Hawker mentioned Accurate.
Also, Hawker writing 1815 -22 & 32 editions, was putting pen to paper long before the Irish team were shooting.
Hawker was known as "The father of Game shooting."
Note, I didn't say Target shooting. ;)
I do think it a shame though, that someone like Hawker, who went to great pains to test both systems so thoroughly and took the time to publish all his findings, can be written off as "Inebriated" by a bloke who hasn't read nary a word of his compositions.
All the best,
Richard.
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Considering when he wrote it. Caplocks are better now. Certainly, caps are.
Personally, as added insurance, I use musket caps on my caplocks.
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Many years ago when I was a young buck my rifle was a Leman plains rifle by Green River in .54cal. I carried that gun on an elk hunt in Montana. I packed up a mountain and camped just below timberline. It snowed some and I had a problem with the rifle not firing at the end of the day. Every day I had to remove the nipple and put a little powder in to get it to fire. Reload the next day and hope it would fire if I saw an elk.
Some years later I got a .32 flintlock. I killed a passel of squirrels and never had a problem. Then I got a big .62 and went on a moose hunt. It rained almost every day but as long as I kept the powder in the pan dry I had no problem. when the time came I shot and killed a big bull.
I never hunted with a percussion gun again. As long as my flint is sharp, my vent clear and my powder is dry my rifle WILL fire. I truly believe if you do your part a flintlock gun is more reliable than a percussion gun.
Me as a young greenhorn nearly 50 years ago with the Green river percussion rifle in front of an old trappers cabin I found in the mountains. I'm holding one of 3 martins I trapped while I was there
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shrewbows.com%2Frons_linkpics%2FMontanna_Trapper1.jpg&hash=3d7696c948a2ae58073a0a82ff8ecea5fded8e4d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shrewbows.com%2Frons_linkpics%2FMontanna_Trapper3.jpg&hash=92bd1ee97f1254801154a807168df9cf399e498a)
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Lobo,
I can relate to that. my flint was last man standing on an occasion of trail -walks in thunder-storms.
Pete,
Hawker said cap-locks are faster. he said more reliable for on the water. He only had reservations about duck guns, (weighing 19 or 20 lbs) as the flint in this case threw Tighter patterns, and did not recoil as savagely. (He shows his patterns and penetration tests in the book)
He was firing pretty stiff charges in these guns.
What I copied above was not saying one was better;
He was saying if you shoot a flint well, don't fix it! If you Don't shoot it well, get a cap-lock!! What can be wrong with that advice ?
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My flintlock has had more failures to fire than my caplock... No question about it.
But every time my flintlock has failed it was because there was a failure on my part... dull flint, fouling clogging the touch hole, etc... Problems that resulted from me, as the operator, to do my part.
Not so with my caplock. Failures are less frequent than with the flint... But often times those failures are due to circumstances beyond my control... Bad caps (thankfully rare) being one. And when a nipple and/or flash channel become blocked, it can be an ordeal to correct the issue.
Is a flintlock MORE reliable than a caplock? I don't think so.
Can a flintlock be AS reliable as a caplock? In my experience, Yes... If the shooter is diligent in the preparation and attention to detail that a flintlock requires.
Mike
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Many years ago when I was a young buck my rifle was a Leman plains rifle by Green River in .54cal. I carried that gun on an elk hunt in Montana. I packed up a mountain and camped just below timberline. It snowed some and I had a problem with the rifle not firing at the end of the day. Every day I had to remove the nipple and put a little powder in to get it to fire. Reload the next day and hope it would fire if I saw an elk.
Four years ago I was hunting cow elk. It was in the Arizona White Mountains. I was hunting with my .58 barreled Hawken. Hunted for 21 days. Two days it snowed so much I never saw the sun. There was also sleet and hail during the hunt. Could have shot at least five bulls as close as 8 yards. Having an antlerless tag, that was out of the question. Long story short, kept gun in the truck every night. removed the cap and placed a wide piece of rubber band on the nipple with the hammer resting on it. I put on a fresh cap every morning. After 21 days the gun went off without any hesitation.
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I wonder. . .
For those who have had bad experiences with caplocks - how many of those instances involved pyrodex?
Pyrodex is notorious for failing to fire. Since it is so difficult to ignite that it is considered unuseable in a flintlock you can safely bet most peoples' flintlock experiences are with real BP only. When I got started, the only source of wisdom I had on muzzleloading was the guy in the store. I used pyrodex. . .and had lots and lots of misfires. Later I found a club that introduced me to BP, and I have never looked back.
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I think sometimes caplock users get a little careless. They assume it's more reliable than it is. Also, a lot of them will use sub powders.
If a caplock fails to fire but does after you put a little powder in the nipple hole. What does that tell you? It tells me the powder was never there when you loaded it. It's important to keep the beech channel clean. It's important to load the powder and then tap the barrel while leaning it over in the direction of the nipple. It's important to get the powder to fill the channel and be under the nipple. Do all this and a caplock won't fail. Using a musket cap will help too.
It took me longer to get a flintlock firing reliably than a caplock. I've learned what each needs to fire every time. They both require dry powder where it needs to be and the ignition source whether pan powder or cap to fire every time. Do that and both work just fine.
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I forgot to mention. If you're having a problem with a caplock and you're using 2F black powder. Try switching to 3F powder. Not only will it ignite easier, have less fouling, but it will flow into the breech channel easier too.
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Flint be sharp to make good spark no damp be in the pan
pick the vent to clear the way to do the job at hand
plug the vent with feathered quill to keep the damp at bay
Do your part so carefully and the ball will find it's way
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Thanks Lobo!
Poetry is something that is sorely lacking in internet reading.
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Daryl,
As Rich P said above.
Neither myself or Hawker mentioned Accurate.
Also, Hawker writing 1815 -22 & 32 editions, was putting pen to paper long before the Irish team were shooting.
Hawker was known as "The father of Game shooting."
Note, I didn't say Target shooting. ;)
I do think it a shame though, that someone like Hawker, who went to great pains to test both systems so thoroughly and took the time to publish all his findings, can be written off as "Inebriated" by a bloke who hasn't read nary a word of his compositions.
All the best,
Richard.
I might have been inebriated when I wrote that. ;D
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I've killed deer and small game with caplocks and mixed in flintlocks about half & half. Then years ago I went exclusively to flintlocks for hunting. One rifle had both a flint lock and a cap lock; I switched them back and forth for deer and took several deer with each one. One of my farthest kills was 100 yards with the rifle in flint mode.
It's been a long time since I hunted with percussion. My interest is longrifles; and to me that means FLINT. Maybe a percussion can be fired underwater, but I don't hunt underwater. Even if I did I'd use a speargun. Cap, flint, got both and like both. It's just that a flinter has "soul". And I am usually so intently concentrating on sight picture that I can't detect any hesitation unless there's a hangfire. This ought to keep me safe from a noose.
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Daryl,
LOL! The Colonel used to get tight at times. His "Spot cure for colds", included drinking enough to see double (claret or whatever ) Then go to sleep. He Guaranteed, when you awoke your cold would be gone!
We should All try it. :-)
Hanshi,
I feel all left out, what with my matchlock and all.......... I feel like a minority! LOL
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Pukka, hope you don't bring " ignition profiling " charges against any of us. :)
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Smylee,
LOL!
I'm a "Minority group", so should be running Everything! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will say no more, or Dennis will be after me for political stuff! ;)
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Having taken both types of ignition moose hunting, I will make these observations. Having a loaded muzzleloading firearm out in the woods for extended periods of time , subject to all kinds of weather can be problematic. Cap locks demand attention [ flash channel, nipple condition, caps etc ] so there is no free lunch. My flintlock guns are easier to maintain in these conditions. It's all about that important first shot, and I know that my gun will fire. It has never let me down for that first shot , even after spending a week in the bottom of a canoe , or nights in a tent.
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I spend far more time clearing ignition paths in caplock rifles than I ever do on a flintlock. Plus, percussion caps can get fouled. A flint and frizzen can be wiped dry and ready to shoot soon thereafter.
Plus, I always feel I need to remove the nipple (and sometimes the drum) on a caplock to really clean it correctly (i.e. if I don't want to drum to fuse itself to the barrel with rust.)
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How come nobody mentions keeping a flint tight and sharp? Cleaning the pan and frizzen, Cleaning the vent liner and breech channel? Keeping powder in the pan when the wind is howling?
Neither one is easier or harder than the other. Just different. A real muzzleloader can handle both with no complaints. :)
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Don't worry, Pukka; a matchlock is about as reliable as these things get. Especially if you're like me and stay at home when it's already raining.
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Do you shrink in the rain? :)
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I'm over here in N Nevada visiting Pop Pop and Meemaw with the family. Went shooting with the flints. Was a bit breezy (probably 20 gusts at 30). Had a couple of times the priming blew out before could close the hammer before I figured out a techinque. Also had priming blow around in the pan if I didn't make sure and brush off any grains that would slightly hold the pan open. We figured it out, but dicussed this thread and the fact that there are days it may be easier and take less fussing the get reliable ignition if using caps. We didn't bring one out today to test the theory, but it could be possible, as much as I love my flintlock, that a caplock may be easier in some conditions
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I'm over here in N Nevada visiting Pop Pop and Meemaw with the family. Went shooting with the flints. Was a bit breezy (probably 20 gusts at 30). Had a couple of times the priming blew out before could close the hammer before I figured out a techinque. Also had priming blow around in the pan if I didn't make sure and brush off any grains that would slightly hold the pan open. We figured it out, but dicussed this thread and the fact that there are days it may be easier and take less fussing the get reliable ignition if using caps. We didn't bring one out today to test the theory, but it could be possible, as much as I love my flintlock, that a caplock may be easier in some conditions
THAT happened a lot to the army in the prairies, according to accounts in "Firearms of the American West". They are really wonderful reading!
pm me for the isbn#'s
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I have no experience with flintlocks but would like to get one to shoot and learn the ins and outs of them. I will say that I've never had a misfire with any of my 4 cap locks using real black powder and RWS 1075 caps. Even in driving rain. I imagine it's like any other BP rifle though. Keep it clean, well maintained, show it the care it requires, and it would be very reliable.
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I have no experience with flintlocks but would like to get one to shoot and learn the ins and outs of them. I will say that I've never had a misfire with any of my 4 cap locks using real black powder and RWS 1075 caps. Even in driving rain. I imagine it's like any other BP rifle though. Keep it clean, well maintained, show it the care it requires, and it would be very reliable.
I'd start a new thread. You'll get a lot of good advice. Find out what you want to own. My best advice would be to hire someone to build you one. If that isn't an option, buy the parts to build one.