AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Hudnut on December 02, 2017, 04:35:55 AM
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This is the lock from my James Wilkinson 16 bore shotgun, dates to September 1822.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FcqKkeb%2F004.jpg&hash=c6289415a2aac9b930092ccd2e8d5227be6574b4) (http://ibb.co/bKStXw)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FejWbkG%2F005.jpg&hash=6d29c714c041bb0e0608d1bb41feae632a05182b) (http://ibb.co/irQQeb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FmgGgKb%2F010.jpg&hash=f819ee13b142588833ba6b5bb0b2f6fc204a1d12) (http://ibb.co/nErFeb)
Note how the frizzen is fitted to a circular extension of the lockplate; the lockplate itself is tight to the barrel.
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Ah...the art of the lock filer!!! Wonderful lock.
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Note how the lock fits against the barrel.
A couple of photos showing the lock inletting, and the silver overlays to protect the stock at the breech of the barrel.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FdCuhsw%2F005.jpg&hash=09a9e1500f3bce90c9a4e185f2ae7ceaf1cf77b4) (http://ibb.co/eU3Leb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Ff0Y8Xw%2F017.jpg&hash=4ae1bdb1f2054ff8a78601ef2f1d55861bb5ef7e) (http://ibb.co/mRMHQG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fe0DmKb%2F018.jpg&hash=f80aff2d493c57b71f449814471867af3470d268) (http://ibb.co/gfWHQG)
img safe (http://imgbb.com/)
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Very nice lock and very nice gun!
I always admire the breech filing as well as the lock. Beautifully done.
Can I ask how you know the date so exactly?
Best,
Richard.
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That's what I would call a real beauty! Nice looking gun as well.
Curtis
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A chap in the UK has the Wilkinson & Son books. I obtained a copy of the page where this gun was entered. Unfortunately, the buyer was not recorded. On the page there are 14 or 15 guns listed, over a period of several weeks. 2/3 were percussion. All the flint guns were singles; single and double percussion guns. Most of the guns did have the name of the buyer. The names of the 3 primary workmen who made the gun are listed.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fm9fx9b%2F004.jpg&hash=9c949bd555d4291483b10bb1dfb490154ec5f974) (http://ibb.co/bNFm2w)
The bore is shiny. The gun has obviously been used, but was always cleaned and looked after.
Note that the top of the frizzen is chipped. The top jaw and screw are replacements. I suspect that the lock was snapped without a flint, resulting in the frizzen being chipped, the screw being broken and the top jaw lost. The top jaw is old, and correctly shaped, but free of engraving. I made the screw, to replace a horrible new one that did not fit.
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Hudnut,
A pal has a Wilkinson rifle, and using the same information was able to date his piece as well, and who had it made.
Very nice to find such details!
It looks to have had the hammer (frizzen) re-faced; Is this correct?
R.
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I don't think so.
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The round, just about invisible fit of the frizzen upon the pan really makes this lock appear to be truly waterproof!
Very fine workmanship! Those British lock makers were at the pinnacle of their profession!
Thank you Hudnut for sharing this with us.
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Hudnut,
I see a line down the side of the frizzen, both sides. Isn't that a re-face I see?
Joel,
Quite agree on the top flight lock filing!
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It sure looks like a top quality lock and gun. The workmanship is quite obvious. I'm wondering how fast the lock/gun fired with the pan away from the barrel that way or am I seeing some thing that isn't there.
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I don't know if the frizzen was ever refaced. Maybe it was made with a facing. I'll have really good look at it in bright light and see if there are any clues. The area of the face where the flint first makes contact can be felt - the lock has certainly been snapped.
I have not fired the gun, so I cannot comment on how fast it fires. The lock does spark! I doubt that a British sportsman who could afford a first class gun would accept less than stellar performance.
The gun is certainly shootable - I've just never done it. I'd feel sick if a spring were to break, or the gun damaged. No springs have failed in 195 years, so probably aren't going to now.
The touch hole is the usual platinum type, w/patent breech. Here is the bore, with a little penlight at the bottom, pointing toward the breech plug.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiypE5G%2F021.jpg&hash=2d8dcaa5def3d102851ba32d423eddb95124eeb9) (http://ibb.co/kHhZ5G)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FiJoJXw%2F049.jpg&hash=6fef085b972acff594975ff969f4ff0a14af19ba) (http://ibb.co/dujssw)
I really had hoped that the buyer had been recorded in the record book, and that I could trace the gun. It came to Canada in 1962. The previous owner's grandfather was from Scotland, and had acquired it post-WW2.
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I'd be bird hunting with that!
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Looks like a variation of the self priming pan. I have an English double barrelled flinter with self priming pans
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No, it is just a waterproof pan system. The lockplate fits tight against the barrel, and the frizzen fits closely to the ring extension of the lockplate.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FhYeLvG%2F048.jpg&hash=a802d81e0971a5ca6f7cfb17250c5aeed5930437) (http://ibb.co/dYSUpb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfeMB2w%2F047.jpg&hash=a2a15191474a37de466a03ea440ad1be0a280919) (http://ibb.co/bB1B2w)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FgHNFvG%2F057.jpg&hash=2bffaa8a5abd466a5f68c9337bff9536050fb3f1) (http://ibb.co/genR2w)
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A body cannot help but to love those high end British guns. Bob
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Thank you for posting all those detailed Pictures. It's a rare treat to see that Level of skilled work.
Best regards
Rolf
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^ 2nd that.
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on the thumb piece, is that a Griffin?
Thanks
Fleener
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I believe it is a wolf.
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The stock's butt architecture is interesting. I personally don't care for the pitch angle, but it has the effect of forcing the comb down and away from the face upon firing, thereby preventing cheek slap. The opposite can be seen in the French Fusil de Chasse style.
It's been a pleasure to study these images.
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My brother had a Wilkinson SxS percussion for a while. The locks had been converted from flint but the quality and manner of the conversions gave doubt if the gun was originally flint or percussion. It had a similar triggergaurd. Overall it was a work of mechanical art. He was offered another nice British double and some cash so as far as I know it is still percussion.
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When a British gunmaker converted a quality flint gun to percussion, a new set of patent breechplugs would be made and fitted, and the locks altered to suit. A friend had a cased 1812 Joe Manton 20 bore double converted in that manner.
Here, drums would usually be fitted to the breeches, pans cut off and plates notched.
The barrel marking on this one is Jas Wilkinson & Son London Gunmakers to His Majesty. That would have been George III.
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Hudnut,
I see a line down the side of the frizzen, both sides. Isn't that a re-face I see?
Joel,
Quite agree on the top flight lock filing!
The frizzen does appear to have a face. I cannot tell if it is a reface or original. If it is refaced, the work was done to the same standard as the rest of the lock.
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The stock's butt architecture is interesting. I personally don't care for the pitch angle, but it has the effect of forcing the comb down and away from the face upon firing, thereby preventing cheek slap. The opposite can be seen in the French Fusil de Chasse style.
It's been a pleasure to study these images.
The gun shoulders very smoothly with a heads up stance.
The gun may very well have been stocked according to the wishes of the buyer.
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Having a slinky like, long, neck and a sensitive inner ear the architecture makes complete and absolute sense to me. That gun fit someone who knew what was best for them and worst for the birds.
Is that method of creating the bolster flat a common method i.e removing material from around the barrel to raise the flat as opposed to simply creating a flat by flling it into the round? ( I am assuming the bolster flat is solid and not brazed on?)
Thanks for sharing, sure is a treat.
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I believe the right hand flat and the Nock's form on top were created when the barrel was forged; they are proud of the barrel, the barrel wasn't reduced to form them.
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That barrel shape is pretty common for that particular time period. Part of the charm of this particular era.
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I sure like the way the flats are slightly undercut to make sure water travels along them away from the pan/vent and not over.
Were bolster flats on a round barrel ever soldered on and dressed down? or is it just to dangerous to trust it wont become a projectile or a fouling trap?
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I sure like the way the flats are slightly undercut to make sure water travels along them away from the pan/vent and not over.
Were bolster flats on a round barrel ever soldered on and dressed down? or is it just to dangerous to trust it wont become a projectile or a fouling trap?
I believe they are just filed in.
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Ah...the art of the lock filer!!! Wonderful lock.
Elegant,simple,rigid assembly. Many years ago,Lynton McKenzie told me of seeing very fine
wooden masters that were made to produce fine sand castings for the externals on the fine
locks and the filing was done on the mechanism.There used to be a man in Northern Ohio
that did nice cast iron hammers and frizzens and I recall using them.I think his name was
Ken Roethlesberger.
Bob Roller
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Bob Roller you have educated me. I thought such locks were all filed from wrought iron forgings.
The one and only ductile ferrous metal that could be sand cast at that time was malleable iron. Steel was not yet being cast. I'd not thought that malleable would tolerate the pounding taken by the cock. Appears I was wrong.
Dixie used to supply a number of parts in malleable iron, lock parts and set triggers.
The line on the frizzen would be where the steel face was brazed onto the malleable iron frizzen.
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Does the cock rest against the pan or does it come to rest on a stop on the bridle?
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The lower jaw of the cock has a "chin" that stops against the fence. There is no shoulder on the inside of the cock that contacts the lockplate. I would have to remove the lock to check the tumbler/bridle relationship, although I would think that the tumbler impacting the bridle would not be a good thing.
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Yes, as Hudnut says, the throat of the cock should fall on the fence.
Beautiful gun.
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Yes, as Hudnut says, the throat of the cock should fall on the fence.
Beautiful gun.
Enclosed are a standard pair of English flint locks with rain proof pans and showing the shoulder stop which connects on the top of the lock plate.
Feltwad
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English Flint Locks
(https://preview.ibb.co/c9tnzb/100_0341.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c1ApCw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e2dbsw/100_0343.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cU22Xw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iFLLkG/100_0350.jpg) (https://ibb.co/isBRQG)
Feltwad
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Bob Roller you have educated me. I thought such locks were all filed from wrought iron forgings.
The one and only ductile ferrous metal that could be sand cast at that time was malleable iron. Steel was not yet being cast. I'd not thought that malleable would tolerate the pounding taken by the cock. Appears I was wrong.
Dixie used to supply a number of parts in malleable iron, lock parts and set triggers.
The line on the frizzen would be where the steel face was brazed onto the malleable iron frizzen.
Jim,
The castings that Roethlesberger furnished were all malleable iron.I would like to know where
his moulds went.
The number of fine English locks that survive are proof that there was a better way than hammering
and filing.
Bob Roller
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Yes, as Hudnut says, the throat of the cock should fall on the fence.
Beautiful gun.
Enclosed are a standard pair of English flint locks with rain proof pans and showing the shoulder stop which connects on the top of the lock plate.
Feltwad
Feltwad,
We were talking about this variation of the French cock on the lock in question, and in this type the cock falls on the fence. See page 1 .
All the best,
Richard.
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In these photos, it can be seen that the chin on the cock's lower jaw contacts the fence, and that there is no stop shoulder on the inside of the cock to contact the top of the plate.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fk7asFG%2F001.jpg&hash=95e2d0b5e870d5db93cd5548de4eb2b8fa47c320) (http://ibb.co/cGu8pb)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fg4NTpb%2F002.jpg&hash=dc59adc2f41c2aba0c25765a114fd1710fedd119) (http://ibb.co/mya3Nw)
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My old friend had a phrase for work like that. " Made by Rolls-Royce, finished by Birks !"
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Another type of French cock that rests on the pan fence on a sxs 10 bore flint lock with rain proof pans that was favoured by the London Gun makers
Feltwad
(https://preview.ibb.co/krMpeb/P1010019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mt4Wsw)
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How does one get in touch with the fellow that owns the Wilkinson books? I have a cased pair of Wilkinson & Son flintlock dueling pistols (#3061) that were converted to percussion and secondarily marked REVOL N. ORLEANS. on the hooked breech; it would be very interesting to find out not only date of manufacture, but if they were shipped directly to New Orleans.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FfomOOb%2FIMG_1556.jpg&hash=df3dc42a15100cffd4a647d857506b211c1c8b91) (http://ibb.co/gT5uUG)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fddcf3b%2FIMG_1551.jpg&hash=2541214f4399d78043b668e4155b104ae09ebd04) (http://ibb.co/eACDOb)
how to upload pictures online (http://imgbb.com/)
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Go to www.armsresearch.co.uk. If available, Mr. Milner will supply a photocopy of the page where your set was entered into inventory. There is a possibility that the original purchaser of your pistol will be identified. It would be exciting if the pistols could be traced. They were expensive guns when made.
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Thank you very much! It will be fascinating to see what the records show.
Bruce
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FehXQgS%2F3052_3067.jpg&hash=88ace5b6234166a790b1b62f3dbe405eb9b383a2) (http://ibb.co/gXJbo7)
Update...
Mr. Milner provided the page listing my cased pistols. Based on the leger, they were finished (browned)/delivered 19 June 1824, and are noted as "Best Pistols" which were ordered by an individual named Hartley. Also noted are the various artisans who worked on the set.
Very interesting information, many thanks for the recommendation to contact Milner...
Now I just have to figure out how these fine pistols made to New Orleans and when Jean Baptiste Revol converted them to percussion!
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FehXQgS%2F3052_3067.jpg&hash=88ace5b6234166a790b1b62f3dbe405eb9b383a2) (http://ibb.co/gXJbo7)
Update...
Mr. Milner provided the page listing my cased pistols. Based on the leger, they were finished (browned)/delivered 19 June 1824, and are noted as "Best Pistols" which were ordered by an individual named Hartley. Also noted are the various artisans who worked on the set.
Very interesting information, many thanks for the recommendation to contact Milner...
Now I just have to figure out how these fine pistols made to New Orleans and when Jean Baptiste Revol converted them to percussion!
Revol is thought to have come to New Orleans about 1838. He first appears in city directories in 1842, so the conversion could have been done around this time at the earliest. Good luck on your quest for information.
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Many hanks oakridge! Stay tuned!!
Bruce