AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: mountainman70 on April 12, 2018, 03:23:32 AM
-
Here we go again folks, gunsinternational has a 54 S Hawken just listed by Dave Condon. Looks cool to me. There are currently 3 orig Hawkens on there. Whaddya think? Have a good evenin, Dave 8) 8)
-
Dave
Can you provide a link to that rifle? I never can find anything on these auction sites
Thanks
Don
-
There are three claimed to be original Hawken rifles on the site. One is a full stock with a forty inch barrel and appears to be a conversion from flint. Just type Hawken in the search window. Scroll through the T/Cs.
Dan
-
Don
Here is the URL http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-percussion/very-rare-original-samuel-hawken-54-cal-percussion-rocky-mountain-rifle-circa-1850-.cfm?gun_id=101016198
Here is the supposed converted flint http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-single-shot/circa-1830-j-s-hawken-full-stock-plains-rifle.cfm?gun_id=100947078
And the John Baird letter rifle
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-percussion/samuel-hawken-rifle.cfm?gun_id=100989565
Dennis
-
Thanks Dennis
Guess I ought to learn the tricks of navigating these computers
-
Hawken rifles come up from time to time now as older collectors update or liquidate their collections. The standard, slant breech, half stock S. Hawken rifles are easier to evaluate. Because there are far fewer J&S Hawkens, particularly early ones, some expect certain features and if not there, feel squeamish. I think the early one is very interesting and probably a lot like other late flintlock, workhorse fur trade rifles.
I just noticed my phone likes to auto correct Hawken to Hawkin.
-
This one looks real to me. I was fooled by the Jamesjulia one discussed here recently. What is it about this one that makes it appear so real?
Poor pictures on that site. Before I plunk down 42-grand I need better pics! : )
-
There is something wrong with the description of the Condon rifle, the first one Dennis listed. A 37" barrel of .54 caliber 1.5" across the flats at the muzzle that weighs 11 1/4 pounds.
-
And there is this one that has run through several auctions with no bids...
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/762296996 (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/762296996)
-
Seems like $32k is the entry fee for signed Hawken plains rifles, or even maybe local squirrel rifles.
-
There is something wrong with the description of the Condon rifle, the first one Dennis listed. A 37" barrel of .54 caliber 1.5" across the flats at the muzzle that weighs 11 1/4 pounds.
It got little use because nobody could carry a rifle that big around for long. So, 1.5 inches at muzzle, why would anyone order that in the day for hunting? Are there other examples
with that big of a barrel? That's a ton of money. "Wonderful provenance", but no mention of it. I'll be the first to admit I don't know ____ about how to prove they are real, so it would
be cool if somebody like Mr. Stith could share on this.
-
Jim Bridger's Hawken has a barrel 33 1/4" long ahead of the snail. It is 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle (call it a 1 1/8" barrel), .53 caliber, and it weighs 11 1/4 pounds. I handled it at the GRRW in 1978 and measured it at the Montana Historical Society Museum in Helena, MT.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FddSsbn%2FDSC01317.jpg&hash=809401779af4d2bc3d850f8b0df73d10c1b77e75) (http://ibb.co/ka7sbn)
-
There is something wrong with the description of the Condon rifle, the first one Dennis listed. A 37" barrel of .54 caliber 1.5" across the flats at the muzzle that weighs 11 1/4 pounds.
It got little use because nobody could carry a rifle that big around for long. So, 1.5 inches at muzzle, why would anyone order that in the day for hunting?
Either the 1.5" barrel size, or the weight, is a typo.
A quick 'search' shows a piece of octagon steel with a .50 cal hole in the center weighs about 6+ pounds per foot, so a 37 inch long barrel would weigh a bit more than 18 pounds. And if you look at the pictures showing the sights, comparing their size to that of the barrel, either the sights are absolutely gigantic, or the barrel is less than 1.5".
Of course, I guess if the barrel is about 3/4" at the breech, the 11 1/4 pound weight might work out as well. It'd look sort of strange, but,,,
John
-
"...and stock very good old medium to dark original finish. "
A nice looking Hawken overall, but it looks to me as if the stock was sanded and refinished at some point. Probably an old old refurbishing job though. Love that buckhorn sight and its very fine aiming notch.
dave
-
Glad all y'all are enjoying this thread. Aint no way I could afford the price of admission,tho it is educational to study these old fellers.
Have a goodun, guys, Save F 8) 8)
-
Fellows
I am reluctant to critique pieces offerred for sale based on a few pictures and a crude description. It would not be fair of me to do so, even with an up close ,first hand study. A sale ought to always be between a buyer and a seller
The only thing I will offer on the Condon rifle is that it appears to be a maple stock rather than the walnut described in the auction site. The finish and condition is very similar to the S Hawken I bought about 20 years ago.. We all know there are members of ALR that can do a quality job of what some call repatinating a rifle whose finish had been skinned
Some of them are very good at it.
-
A friend contacted Condon. He now says it is maple stocked and 1 1/8 barrel. Don't know if that is breech or muzzle or both