AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Denny Ducet on May 22, 2018, 08:02:26 AM
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This is a simulated Fort shoot during the Merical Rendezvous of 2018. The shooters are Dave, Sean, Mike and Alan. The premise of the shoot is to knock down the 10 or so Brown Bison before the White one. Shooting the white Bison, before all the Brown ones are down results in a penalty of time. After the bison are down there are hostiles clutching hostages. Shooters are to engage the hostiles and not hit the hostages. Hitting hostages is also a penalty. After all hostiles are taken down, the final target is a Chief in the distance. Distances extend to nearly 70 yards for the furthest target. Targets are no bigger than 8 inches. Relax..... this is just for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0H7JApKgdA
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Looks like a fun time.
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Fort shoots are fun. MUST listen to instructions on who's enemy and especially who isn't.
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I see that one guy is still blowing down the barrel. I noticed him doing that in other videos you have posted.
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We do lots of things to unloaded guns that we wouldn't do to loaded ones. It is a good looking shoot. Wish I could be there.
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No reason not to blow on it it was not loaded. We would not put powder in a loaded gun but we do in an empty one. I have been blowing down empty barrels for over 40 years with no ill effects. Don't blow down yours if you don't want to .
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I have several safety issues with the footage of this event. For starters the shooters are crowded into a very small area for shooting flintlocks, making the possibility of setting off someone’s powder horn, or priming horn, very real. The aforementioned blowing down the barreled is a no brainer. And one shooter keeps leaving his priming horn on a ledge on the back of the wall, at just about touch hole height.
Don’t get me wrong, I love this type of event, and have engineered several over the years. IMO, they are much more enjoyable than plain old target shooting, for shooters, and spectators, alike. But, they present safety issues that must be considered to keep things safe.
Hungry Horse
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Y2GDsl45g
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It's great to see the youth involved.
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Mike Nesbit?
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The slow talker with the two flicker feathers in his fur cap is not the Mike Nesbit I know.
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We also have Fort Shoots at Rendezvous B.C., held annually at Hefley Creek range.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F2006%2520Hefley%2520Creek%2520Rendezvous%2FP8290949.jpg&hash=14acfa1f191a37556aadf86a8ad7e3c992041f42) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/2006%20Hefley%20Creek%20Rendezvous/P8290949.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F2006%2520Hefley%2520Creek%2520Rendezvous%2FP8300303.jpg&hash=5d4de41dc5f26b3386e956034309480e076e33b9) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/2006%20Hefley%20Creek%20Rendezvous/P8300303.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F2006%2520Hefley%2520Creek%2520Rendezvous%2FP8300302.jpg&hash=a3c5ee69c18c0f8ec0690b1383a6a26f211877a1) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/2006%20Hefley%20Creek%20Rendezvous/P8300302.jpg.html)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dXWt6T/P8290950.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cWnBt8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e55aLo/P8290951.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c9L9fo)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ds5xY8/P8290947.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJt6RT)
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@!*%, that all looks like a big old bunch of fun. The lad seemed to have the odd misfire with his cap lock, mainspring a bit light? Seemed a pretty good rate of sustained fire to.
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The most common reason for percussion guns to consistently misfire like this, isn’t a weak spring. It usually is a deformed nipple that doesn’t allow the cap to completely seat on the nipple. The fact that this gun always fires on the second shot, indicates the first hammer fall is required to drive the cap down on the nipple, so the second hammer fall can set it off.
Hungry Horse
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That's one of the easiest fixes in muzzle loading rifles...a little file work and the cap seats perfectly.
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Why is it that when I watch the video I see .50 caliber paint balls exiting the barrels?
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A new nipple is a cheap fix also.
It makes me a little nervous seeing all those shooters rushing around, shooting flintlocks in close quarters and seeing guys turn their heads from the vent blast. For safety's sake I'd like to see a little larger fort.
And those guys shooting with no eye protection?
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My point of view axactly. The youth were paying more attention to safety than the adults. And this was a YouTube video, so every newbie that got his muzzleloader yesterday, will look at it, and think it’s all perfectly safe. This is not an if something bad happens situation, it a when, in my opinion. Sorry, Safety first.
Hungry Horse
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As arrows,lead where flying into the ramparts,"yo! your to close to me you might set off my powder horn" Just funnin :D
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I built my .54. I know how it functions. I can't figure out how to make it a repeating rifle. When I fire and a balloon pops, an apple disintegrates, a charcoal briquette suspended on a string momentarily turns to a dark puff of dust, the clay pigeon (s) shatters or a mule deer buck suddenly collapses and kicks twice, I am quite certain MY rifle is empty. And yes, I usually blow down the barrel as was expected 40 years ago. Incidentally, occasionally, as I blow the residual smoke out the touch hole I will suddenly feel a stoppage as a tiny crumb or particle blocks the vent and I can clear that with my pick. I am not "politically correct". I know I would be banned at Friendship and many other events. I know what safety is but I also cherish my independence, my liberty, and my freedom.
Nearly all outdoor activities come with an inherent risk of some type and to some degree. If you critics look closely at their wooden fort there are even sooty reminders on the wall at two port holes. I'll bet those men knew what they were getting into and chose to do so. Every time you meet a vehicle on a two-way street or road you are within 6 or 7 feet of a head-on collision. But you drive anyway? And who sharpens your knife for you?
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There is nothing dangerous about blowing down an empty barrel. One is never more certain that it is empty than when he has just fired it.
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Well, I’ve was in a timed group shoot event where a competitor thought his gun was firing in the din of gunfire, but as it turned out he stopped his frantic loading when he realized the load wasn’t seating. The gun had three complete charges in it.
I also was at a Rendezvous on a drizzly day, where a shooters hat allowed a drop or two of water to drop into the barrel midway through his loading. The gun fired, but the bullet never exited the barrel unbeknownst to him.
The shooter was puzzled and looked down the barrel. The remaining powder, and ball, above the wet spot ignited, and shot him in the eye with a fifty four caliber ball. He was incredibly lucky he wasn’t killed.
So don’t tell me you always have a handle on situations like this. If it were’nt for accidents like this there would’nt be rules restricting such behavior. And, just for your information these guys were’nt pilgrims in either.
Hungry Horse
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During a shoot, a guy holler at me for blowing down the barrel of my rifle after I had taken a shot.
I told him I'd make a bet with him that IF he could make it fire again, without "RE-loading" it first, the rifle was his to KEEP,.... BUT if he FAILED to make my gun fire AGAIN he had to give me HIS rifle to keep. ::)
I guess,.... even HE doubted he could perform such a miraculous and wondrous feat, because that put a quick end to our little conversation. :)
Some folks just can't seem to resist being "their brother's keeper",.... while other folks merrily go through life minding their own business,... as long as,... their "business" doesn't create an immediate threat to someone else's well-being. :)
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Unfortunately if one know it all accidentally shoots himself, or someone else, he’s not the only one that pays the price. This kind of behavior is detrimental to the entire shooting community, and shouldn’t be tolerated by any club, or group.
Hungry Horse
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Well, I’ve was in a timed group shoot event where a competitor thought his gun was firing in the din of gunfire, but as it turned out he stopped his frantic loading when he realized the load wasn’t seating. The gun had three complete charges in it.
I also was at a Rendezvous on a drizzly day, where a shooters hat allowed a drop or two of water to drop into the barrel midway through his loading. The gun fired, but the bullet never exited the barrel unbeknownst to him.
The shooter was puzzled and looked down the barrel. The remaining powder, and ball, above the wet spot ignited, and shot him in the eye with a fifty four caliber ball. He was incredibly lucky he wasn’t killed.
So don’t tell me you always have a handle on situations like this. If it were’nt for accidents like this there would’nt be rules restricting such behavior. And, just for your information these guys were’nt pilgrims in either.
Hungry Horse
First story sounds like it involved a very inexperienced shooter,.... or,... was a long time shooter who was too dumb to notice his ramrod was QUICKLY "growing". ::)
And after reading the next story, my 2 questions are,.... if the gun actually fired (at all), why was this experienced shooter puzzled enough to look down the bore if he thought the ball had already left the barrel?
What do you think the experienced shooter was expecting to see, by looking down the bore of a fouled barrel? ::)
Heck, I can't see anythin' looking down the bore of a "CLEAN" bore,.... so once again, it sounds like that particular shooter lacked actual experience shooting muzzleloaders. ::)
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Unfortunately if one know it all accidentally shoots himself, or someone else, he’s not the only one that pays the price. This kind of behavior is detrimental to the entire shooting community, and shouldn’t be tolerated by any club, or group.
Hungry Horse
Why would either occurrence (if one was to happen), be more detrimental to our "shooting community",.... then say,... the occasional "hunting/shooting accident" that happens every year with the other guns?
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When individual activities are unsupervised, and there is no perceived rules,and regulations, regarding safety, the blame ultimately fall on the individual. At a club, or public range, there is at least the supposition that there are safety rule, and regulations in place, to keep things safe. And, if someone is hurt a portion of the blame ultimately falls back on the club, or shooting event.
Hungry Horse
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When individual activities are unsupervised, and there is no perceived rules,and regulations, regarding safety, the blame ultimately fall on the individual. At a club, or public range, there is at least the supposition that there are safety rule, and regulations in place, to keep things safe. And, if someone is hurt a portion of the blame ultimately falls back on the club, or shooting event.
Hungry Horse
So regarding the incident where the shooter loaded 3 piggy-backed loads during a "timed event",.... are timed-events now frowned upon?
Regarding the 2nd. incident where the shooter got "shot in the eye" when looking down the bore after shooting.
Is looking down the barrel now forbidden through the addition of one more new "rule"?
The shoots and rendezvous I attend,.... have no rule against blowing down the barrel of a muzzleloader. Those are the events I prefer to attend, as they seem to place a bit more emphasis on personal responsibility.
The sense of having the freedom "to look out for one's self", (without being told what to do,) is very enjoyable for me and quite a few others.
IMHO,.... enjoying traditional muzzleloaders at events, should have as much to do with the "atmosphere of freedom" enjoyed by our forefathers during the 17th.-18th. and 19th. centuries, as they do about the clothing, and camps.
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I must agree with HH: in this day and age, and in this part of the world, most folks prefer to use the facilities of a gun club. There they can be assured that there is protocol and safety measures in place and enforced, and they can enjoy shooting without as much of a risk of injury. Our own club, of which I am the President by coincidence, has been in continuous operation since June of 1946, and without a single shooting accident. I concede that there are those who prefer for whatever reasons to shoot in gravel pits and the like, and that is their prerogative. But they are on their own as far as safety and liability is concerned....their choice. If you attend a club function, you will follow club policy/rules/protocol, or you don't shoot.
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Thank you Taylor, I was beginning to feel like the only voice of reason here. We all likely did things a whole lot differently not so many years ago. But, that has to change. Every accidental shooting come back to haunt all of us. Modern communication allows those that don’t appreciate, or enjoy, our sport, to make a major event out of every shooting sports accident. Being slipshod, or careless, just isn’t going to cut it anymore.
HungryHorse
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Maybe we've been lucky here in my part of the country, and the dumb shooters have already kilt themselves (by other means) before they ever got the chance to blow down the barrel of a LOADED gun,.... I dunno. :-\
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IMO, not all of them.
Hungry Horse
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IMO, not all of them.
Hungry Horse
Well then,.... hopefully they're still home tryin' to figger out what that "mark" is for on their ramrod.
A smart/experienced man always marks his ramrod at the end of his "EMPTY" gun's muzzle.
If the "mark" shows proud of the muzzle when dropped down the bore, it's yellin' at'cha "BEWARE,.... sumpthin is down there" :o.
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Most fun you can have with your trousers on! ;D
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Referring to my previous post, the most glaring safety violation that really stands out to me is the closeup's of the shooters (at least 2, one with flint, one with percussion) shooting without safety glasses! I can't count the number of times pieces of cap or pieces of shattered flints, and even hot solid sparks a couple of times, managed to hit my face and safety glasses. Failure to not use them can easily result in blindness. Not to mention the poor example it shows to anyone, like kids, watching this video.
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Referring to my previous post, the most glaring safety violation that really stands out to me is the closeup's of the shooters (at least 2, one with flint, one with percussion) shooting without safety glasses! I can't count the number of times pieces of cap or pieces of shattered flints, and even hot solid sparks a couple of times, managed to hit my face and safety glasses. Failure to not use them can easily result in blindness. Not to mention the poor example it shows to anyone, like kids, watching this video.
I won't say you should NEVER wear glasses when shooting,.... but,... I will say that I've been shooting my guns for more than 45 years, and I have never experienced the "flak" you describe.
Over the last 8-9 years, I've been forced to go with prescription glasses in order to see my sights.
I would imagine if any of the shooters at the "Fort Shoot" have ever felt something hit their face,.... they would be wearin' glasses without bein' told. :)
What's next with the safety comments berating folks out having fun with the guns they love,.... hard hats, steel-toed boots, welding gloves, sun-block, or maybe even full-body armor?
What's wrong with letting people play with their toys the way they wish,... after all,... it's THEIR eyes, fingers, toes, and ears, we're talking about? (and they ain't askin' us for advice)
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I have solved the blowing-down-the-barrel problem! I present to you the "FassBlästSicherheitsrohr" or "barrel-blowing-safety-pipe". Now you can safely clear your barrel whilst safely keeping your face away from bangy-parts.
All it takes is a spare pipe stem and some brass. I happened to have a nice piece of brass in an interesting shape, the neck was about .223 in diameter which fit the hole of the pipe stem.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yY0aLZU4kL8/Wwy5AZQ568I/AAAAAAAABzA/WnQ7bpISz3goQoj_9Sj21xlJ4uJv1PBCACLcBGAs/s1600/20180528_170418.jpg)
Deploying the device:
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q1P2r1531VQ/Wwy5ApQIdnI/AAAAAAAABzE/jbZ6uOzsivcAtG7mRY6mq81X04GlntIpwCLcBGAs/s1600/20180528_170500.jpg)
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If you must blow down the barrel to soften the fouling, the use a blow-pipe as the ctg. shooters use would also work.
I find it best not to have to blow down the bore - by using thick, wet patches that load easily, actually seal the bore, then
completely leave the bore when fired - never is there anything left in the bore that could possibly ignite the next charge thrown
down it.
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I’m sorry, but how in heavens name is that contraption one bit safer? The whole idea I’d to not get yourself in contact with a barrel that might have a charge in it. All this thing does is move you away from the barrel, but adds a bunch more shrapnel, that is still sticking in your mouth. Now if it was surgical tubing or something that isn’t quite so likely to knock your teeth out, or rip part of your face off it might be better. Would’nt it just be easier to not blow down the darned barrel?
Hungry Horse
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If you must blow down the barrel to soften the fouling, the use a blow-pipe as the ctg. shooters use would also work.
I find it best not to have to blow down the bore - by using thick, wet patches that load easily, actually seal the bore, then
completely leave the bore when fired - never is there anything left in the bore that could possibly ignite the next charge thrown
down it.
Daryl,.... unlike BPCR shooting, where the goal of blowing moist air (from your deep in your lungs), into the rifle's bore to soften black powder fouling,.... the goal of blowin' down the bore of a muzzleloader provides a completely different purpose.
The purpose of blowin' down a muzzleloader barrel (after taking a shot), is to help any left over embers in the breech burn up faster and completely.
This is similar to the use of air-flow when using a forge, which make the coals hotter, but also more shorter-lived.
The possibility of glowing embers remaining in the breech,.... is also why it has been recommended for more than 300 years, to use a powder measure whenever loading instead of pouring powder directly into the bore from a powder horn (which could easily turn into a hand-held bomb if the powder lands on a live ember).
Of course we all know that any possible embers remaining in the bore can easily be extinguished by running a wet patch down the bore before each loading,.... we also know when doing so, we push all the fouling and gunk into the breech and that can create other problems.
The "wet patch" method you mention, does indeed help,... but that wet patch doesn't go completely into the breech area where an ember may still linger.
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I don’t believe the embers in the bore scenario for a minute, unless you are shooting combustible cartridges. Yes, maybe a hundred and fifty years ago, when powder manufacturing was hit, and miss, you could end up with poorly ground,adulterated, or mixed, components that could leave an ember after combustion, but not today.
The reason most of us started blowing down the bore, was to make sure fowlings hadn’t backed up into the nipple, or touch hole, and plugged it up. It was simple, and easy, to simply blow down the bore, while watching the breech for the telltale puff of smoke from the nipple, or touch hole. We never dreamed that someone could mistake the pop of the cap, or flash of the pan, for true ignition, but some did.
I suspect that the majority of the issues in this area can be attributed to modern muzzleloaders have nipples, and touch holes with smaller holes than was common in the past.
Hungry Horse
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Some folks would argue, that powder made 150 years ago was better than today's powder.
Swiss powder is supposed to be the closest thing we can get to the characteristics of old powder, and Swiss powder is the best available today.
So,.... I guess it's all about what one wants to believe.
Has anyone done exhaustive comparisons between the old powder and Goex,.... or any of the lesser quality powders available today?
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Worried about blowing down the barrel,maybe loaded?all this and a thread a stones throw away about short starting balls,shooting it and thank God no KIA's to report. When somebody posts they blew down the barrel of a short started,double loaded,double balled rifle while not wearing safety glasses while standing over an open keg of powder with a cigar hanging out of their face........now I'm worried :o
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Daryl,.... unlike BPCR shooting, where the goal of blowing moist air (from your deep in your lungs), into the rifle's bore to soften black powder fouling,.... the goal of blowin' down the bore of a muzzleloader provides a completely different purpose.
The purpose of blowin' down a muzzleloader barrel (after taking a shot), is to help any left over embers in the breech burn up faster and completely.
This is similar to the use of air-flow when using a forge, which make the coals hotter, but also more shorter-lived.
The possibility of glowing embers remaining in the breech,.... is also why it has been recommended for more than 300 years, to use a powder measure whenever loading instead of pouring powder directly into the bore from a powder horn (which could easily turn into a hand-held bomb if the powder lands on a live ember).
Of course we all know that any possible embers remaining in the bore can easily be extinguished by running a wet patch down the bore before each loading,.... we also know when doing so, we push all the fouling and gunk into the breech and that can create other problems.
The "wet patch" method you mention, does indeed help,... but that wet patch doesn't go completely into the breech area where an ember may still linger.
I understand what you are saying, & if I used grass, old wasp nests or .010" for patches, like some still insist upon using, it is likely to happen.
Loading the way we do, I am certain there is 0 = zero possibility of a glowing ember to remain in the breech.
It has not happened our tens of thousands of shots I've made over the years. One of the guys we shoot with, is a relatively new shooter of perhaps 12-15 years (a guess) yet he's shot
off over 20,000 rounds his "Taylor made" guns. Taylor taught him right off the bat how to load. He's never had a problem loading and shooting all day. For him, he'd shoot for 4 or 5 hours straight
without a break.
I did, however witness a premature powder charge accident happen to another friend, who insisted on using old T-shirts for patches. He switched to using a single heavy denim after the
finger burns healed that he got from the flame coming out the muzzle. He had dumped in the new charge, put a thinly patched ball on the muzzle and whoosh! Bad burns.
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In the second picture, the dude is pointing ...up...if you look carefully, you'll see a green balloon...and it's on a pulley...and it snags on the tallest picket!...while you're loading! The only guy there to be the Hero is Ross, the guy on the right. If he sees and shoots that green balloon, he saves his buddies from a soaking! I got douched once...right in the pan! ;D :o
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If everyone had tight bore/patch/ball combinations, NO ONE would need to blow down a barrel. the end
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Has anyone done exhaustive comparisons between the old powder and Goex,.... or any of the lesser quality powders available today?
Okay, so my "blowpipe" was supposed to be a joke, not to be taken seriously.
But not joking this time: It may not be an exhaustive comparison, but last year I came into possession of a couple pounds of Goex 3F from the 1980s. They were opened cans, stored in my Dad's old shooting box. Stuck in a basement in Ohio for many years, then traveled to California.
During a day of shooting last fall, I switched between my brand-new Goex and the 80's stuff each relay. Maybe it's my mediocre shooting ability, but I noticed no difference in point of aim, fouling, or anything. The only big difference was the price on the can!
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Suspe;
I agree with you on the powder quality. I have shot black powder made throughout the late fifties, and early sixties, And every decade there after, and the American made stuff is very close in quality. I shot some imported powder from Britain years ago, that was not so great. I also have inherited old powder from several old timers that was made in the twenties, or maybe a little before, that is if anything a little hotter than modern powder.
Sorry to react to your tongue in cheek barrel blower, but you were just too convincing.
Where did you move to in California? I live up in Lake County.
Hungry Horse
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We have an old very experienced shooter from Alberta. He is a fantastic shot and is very competitive. He has always swabbed his bore since I have known him and is adamant about placing any part of your body over the muzzle of your rifle/gun/pistol. His suggestion, if you choose not to swab, is to use a plastic blow tube like the BPCR shooters use.
But like Daryl has mentioned here, I do not feel the need to either swab or blow, as long as I load immediately after firing, because my rifles are easy to load with the combo's I use and as such I do not believe that there can be anything left in the breech to ignite a subsequent charge. But, then again, I use factory plastic hoppers on my reloading powder measures too. That's another story...
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Suspe;
I agree with you on the powder quality. I have shot black powder made throughout the late fifties, and early sixties, And every decade there after, and the American made stuff is very close in quality. I shot some imported powder from Britain years ago, that was not so great. I also have inherited old powder from several old timers that was made in the twenties, or maybe a little before, that is if anything a little hotter than modern powder.
Sorry to react to your tongue in cheek barrel blower, but you were just too convincing.
Where did you move to in California? I live up in Lake County.
Hungry Horse
Oops, meant it to be clearly satire! I spent lots of time at Fort Ord and Presidio of Monterey, ended up down in Ventura County. To keep it on track a bit, a word of warning to anybody who moves out here where 50% humidity seems high: After a couple years, the silver-wire inlays in a couple of my inherited rifles started popping out of the stock! Seems what was tight enough for Ohio didn't work in single-digit humidity.
This is actually worrying me a bit, as I'm finishing my rifle now. What if I move back east and suddenly everything is too tight?
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What I have saw , mid 80,s standing next to a guy at the line as he was getting ready to prime he stopped and prepped to blow down the bbl, and I stopped that very quick. He didn,t get the job done, but he started. Watching R. Lee Ermeys show on proper loading a Enfield with live rounds, to see rounds per minute one of the rounds went off as the powder was being poured, and the first words were ( he isn,t hurt). Had to have hot fingers though.