AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Daryl on July 25, 2018, 08:27:28 AM
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Here is my method of tapering a mainspring lower limb and after forging
I do the same to the upper leaf. Save a lot of work.The pictures appear to show a tilted
head on the milling machine but that is NOT the case.IF the head was tilted it would let
the end mill generate a deep radius all the way across.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eB4sr8/20180713_143227.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ddTJW8)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fckXr8/20180713_143148.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4AyW8)
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Thank you Bob for sharing your knowledge. Without the sharing of knowledge we have to keep reinventing the wheel. 😁
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Slick fixture!
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Slick fixture!
Thanks for the kind comments. This thing is nothing but common keystock
1/2" square and offset pins to establish a taper.The spring blank shown had
been draw filed and the picture obviously posed.The taper can be easily adjusted
by putting shims under the front pin.The thickness of the material is 1/8" 1075.
The claw or hook for the link to the tumbler is formed from the front end of the
spring where the clamp holds very tightly.
If a milling machine is not available this type of fixture can be used for hand filing the taper.
Clamp it in the bench vise and go at it first with a coarse file and then finer cuts and finish
by draw filing and adding a few drops of threading fluid if you have some.Makes for a cleaner job.
Bob Roller
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Mr. Roller,
Thanks!!! Faced with the need to make a mainspring and dreading it! The holding fixture looks to be the "ticket" to making life easier. Again, thanks.
J.B.
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Bob - I'd like to see the fixtures you use to form the hook and bend of the upper leaf of the spring ;).
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Thanks for the tip. I'll try it out when i start on the spring for the two Locks I am building.
Best regards
Rolf
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Bob - I'd like to see the fixtures you use to form the hook and bend of the upper leaf of the spring ;).
P.W. and the rest of you.My "fixture" would make a dog laugh. It is a 1/8" diameter
chainsaw file carefully ground flat on two sides and that narrowed radius forms the semi circle for the link
after notching it with a sharp three cornered file.The shape of the hook is then formed with a few file strokes.
As for bending I will see if I van get our son,Eric down here to take a picture or two of how I do that job.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
I'm much more low tech! I use a flat plate of aluminum and crystal Shellac as my holding fixture.
I sprinkle a small pile of shellac onto the plate and warm it just enough to make it fluid. The spring stock is set in and moved around enough to get it bedded into the goo.
the heat is removed and the whole thing allowed to cool down. I clamp the plate in the mill vise indicating the angle I need.. Then just lightly shave the stock down, so as to not overheat the part.. once done, I heat the plate to release the part and drop it into some alcohol.. after a bit the remaining shellac dissolves and the spring wipes clean..
Works for me anyways! ( and better than cyanoacrylate )
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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I usually do this on a shaper that way the machining marks run the length of the spring reducing stress risers. I guess you polish all the marks out of a spring anyway so it wouldn’t matter. I just like to use the old shaper.
Ed
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Bob,
Thanks for sharing this. It's nice to see your fixture. A neat design with the pins.
All the best,
Jim
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I guess I am missing something here & correct me if I did.. I believe you said that you forged the spring. The taper is forged into the spring. Why have a complete set up to machine it when a couple more hammer blows does the same thing?
Darrin
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I guess I am missing something here & correct me if I did.. I believe you said that you forged the spring. The taper is forged into the spring. Why have a complete set up to machine it when a couple more hammer blows does the same thing?
Darrin
I have never tried to forge a taper into a spring. I bend the spring and then hit
it with a hammer while red hot and forge the upper and lower limb together.
I taper the upper limb on the mill and file and polish it and then heat it up again
and open it up to wherever I want it to be in relation to the link.
I think we have two definitions of forging here.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
Thanks for sharing this. It's nice to see your fixture. A neat design with the pins.
All the best,
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the note. Are you coming to Lexington in a few weeks. We hope to
but my wife has really painful back and knee problems that may prevent it for us.
How's that good looking little boy doing? Before 1979 we lived in a big old 9 room
house and my wife had a day care for infants and toddlers,usually 5 which is the
limit here without a license. The mothers really liked the care Brenda gave them
and accused me of spoiling them. I asked them if there is any other reason to have them around :)
Bob Roller
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Ok Bob now I got it. Sorry. Yep I mistook the forged contexts.
Darrin
I guess I am missing something here & correct me if I did.. I believe you said that you forged the spring. The taper is forged into the spring. Why have a complete set up to machine it when a couple more hammer blows does the same thing?
Darrin
I have never tried to forge a taper into a spring. I bend the spring and then hit
it with a hammer while red hot and forge the upper and lower limb together.
I taper the upper limb on the mill and file and polish it and then heat it up again
and open it up to wherever I want it to be in relation to the link.
I think we have two definitions of forging here.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
Thanks for sharing this. It's nice to see your fixture. A neat design with the pins.
All the best,
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the note. Are you coming to Lexington in a few weeks. We hope to
but my wife has really painful back and knee problems that may prevent it for us.
How's that good looking little boy doing? Before 1979 we lived in a big old 9 room
house and my wife had a day care for infants and toddlers,usually 5 which is the
limit here without a license. The mothers really liked the care Brenda gave them
and accused me of spoiling them. I asked them if there is any other reason to have them around :)
Bob Roller
Bob,
Thanks for the message... Little Henry is doing great. He's growing like crazy (15lb 10oz at two months!) and seems to be changing every day. He's certainly a lot of work, but wonderful to be part of our lives. It really is a great thing. I don't think I completely understood this before having a child.
Katherine, Henry, my mother and I will be at the CLA and are looking forward to it. Sure hope you and your wife are up for the trip. Look forward to saying hello.
All the best,
Jim
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Ok Bob now I got it. Sorry. Yep I mistook the forged contexts.
Darrin
I guess I am missing something here & correct me if I did.. I believe you said that you forged the spring. The taper is forged into the spring. Why have a complete set up to machine it when a couple more hammer blows does the same thing?
Darrin
I have never tried to forge a taper into a spring. I bend the spring and then hit
it with a hammer while red hot and forge the upper and lower limb together.
I taper the upper limb on the mill and file and polish it and then heat it up again
and open it up to wherever I want it to be in relation to the link.
I think we have two definitions of forging here.
Bob Roller
Darrin,
As much as possible I tend to think in terms of machine tools and ways they can be adapted.
I am well aware of the CNC systems now in use and I used an old type back in 1971 in a shop
that sub contracted making parts for the mining industry.Lock making is an odd trade/skillset
today and the fact that anyone even will consider doing it is even beyond odd.I have only found
ONE machinist that wanted to do it and he did.His name is Sid Estep and he is still working but
for the railroad. He made some good locks and triggers but this was in the mid 1970's and the crappy attitude
of so many muzzle loading enthusiasts about paying for the time and skill it takes to make them made
him decide to quit and never look back. I bought his castings and spring steel and used them for quite
a while.He made the Chet Shoults Ketland and Hawken locks and triggers.I wonder how many others
have quit trying to make ANY items for the muzzle loading sports because of this? I was fortunate
and made connection to Germany's Black Powder shooters thru Guenter Stifter and Helmut Mohr.
I sent a few lock samples to them and that opened another market for me and I was glad to have it.
THIS forum has been beneficial and a local police officer took me to the CLA Lexington Show for the
first time in 2008. It was a real pleasure to see such a fine show in a very pleasant environment and
the absence of ammo-camo-AK"s,AR's and relics of defunct,criminal political systems was indeed a
pleasurable experience.I hope we can come to the next one but we're not sure at this time.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
Thanks for sharing this. It's nice to see your fixture. A neat design with the pins.
All the best,
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the note. Are you coming to Lexington in a few weeks. We hope to
but my wife has really painful back and knee problems that may prevent it for us.
How's that good looking little boy doing? Before 1979 we lived in a big old 9 room
house and my wife had a day care for infants and toddlers,usually 5 which is the
limit here without a license. The mothers really liked the care Brenda gave them
and accused me of spoiling them. I asked them if there is any other reason to have them around :)
Bob Roller
Bob,
Thanks for the message... Little Henry is doing great. He's growing like crazy (15lb 10oz at two months!) and seems to be changing every day. He's certainly a lot of work, but wonderful to be part of our lives. It really is a great thing. I don't think I completely understood this before having a child.
Katherine, Henry, my mother and I will be at the CLA and are looking forward to it. Sure hope you and your wife are up for the trip. Look forward to saying hello.
All the best,
Jim
Jim&Katherine,
Certainly no failure to thrive with baby Henry. It's easy to see in infants
if they have a fine home environment. I came across an 11 month old boy recently
in an Aldi's grocery store and he was obviously happy and well cared for.
He reached for me and I "shook hands"with him.His mother was a bit surprised
but I told her a happy baby frequently can tell if a stranger really likes him or her.
They are a lot of work but SO worth it and we enjoyed every minute of it.
Our youngest son will be 46 on 29July and his daughter and husband have made
us great grand parents twice with now 3 year old Lilly and Lucy who is today 1 year
old.
Bob Roller
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Heart-warming experiences - thanks Bob.
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Heart-warming experiences - thanks Bob.
Daryl ,
Thank YOU for posting that picture and I hope it will help someone
by showing that tools don't always have to be costly. I think the
monetary value of that little bar is less than $1.00 including the screws
Bob
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An expert machinist with a complete shop will find one way easy and an expert blacksmith will find another way easy. The builders without daily access to either a machine shop or a forge find some tasks hard or just laborious. A mainspring is just about at the limit of what I can forge using fire brick enclosures and propane torches. Since I only have to make one every couple years, that’s ok.
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You all are professionals
As a pretty rank amateur my own milling machine came from Nicholson
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You all are professionals
As a pretty rank amateur my own milling machine came from Nicholson
I believe that is called an Armstrong milling machine ;D
Bob Roller
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Rough forged frizzen spring blank for a big lock I am working on. Lots of ’armstrong’ milling to do yet. I’ll file to thickness, then file the pin and locate and drill screw hole. Then I bend and fit it before heat treating.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mjqmWK/79_F96_E2_F_2_E8_B_4001_9_E62_824407741718.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g636WK)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j3kydz/BE625_F45_7_B21_44_C4_B3_EC_D5_CF10873_CE6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bSV9ke)
al2br6 (https://aluminumsulfate.net/aluminum-bromide)
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I wouldn't even try to do that job in that manner.I get tired just thinking
about it.One thing is,I have no good way to do it and have no forge as such
but have adapted other methods that will do the job faster and easier.
MAYBE,60 years ago I might have tried these very old methods but now
there is no way I'd even start it.
Please continue this and I would like to see it when it's done and the time
it took to do it.
Bob Roller
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When I was young I made at hundreds springs. I used to make them for gunsmiths in Portland who mostly worked on shotguns. At that time I forged them in a coal forge and filed them to shape. I think I could make a main spring in about an hour including the time it took for hardening and tempering. When I make one now I still do it the same way but use a torch. The standing is what gets to me because of my back. The filing is easy with good sharp files. I have a small mill. But by the time I set up for that I can file a couple of springs by hand. In Bob's case he is already set up so it 's no problem. He has probably made a lot more than I have. If one has the jigs and all it looks like a good method and it is repeatable. A main spring then sold for about $15.00. I had two kids and could buy a weeks groceries for about $25.00 and that was including T bone steaks. A large hamburger, fries and a chocolate shake was 50 cents. 1960.
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Bob, anyone who has handled one of your locks could never argue with your methods. My only machine tool is a little Sherline mini lathe. I do have a forge and can get to rough shape pretty quickly on a spring. I am also a hobbyist in this field and am interested in learning historical methods. I was fascinated to watch our Willamsburg gunsmith forge blanks for a frizzen, cock and lockplate out of wrought iron this past weekend at Dixon’s.
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Bob, anyone who has handled one of your locks could never argue with your methods. My only machine tool is a little Sherline mini lathe. I do have a forge and can get to rough shape pretty quickly on a spring. I am also a hobbyist in this field and am interested in learning historical methods. I was fascinated to watch our Willamsburg gunsmith forge blanks for a frizzen, cock and lockplate out of wrought iron this past weekend at Dixon’s.
In my late teens I played a bit with the ancient methods but didn't have the
right equipment and the labor intensive nature of it turned me off.Over the
years,as skills were gathered I was able to get more done with less work and
I did more than parts for muzzle loaders.Other shops were interested in what
my skills and WILLINGNESS to work longer than normal 8 hour days if need be.
One thing I offered from my own shop was the idea of ONE of a kind parts to
old car restorers.I was and still am able and willing to make only ONE part if
I have material and my tools will accommodate.I specialized in bronze bearings
for obsolete automatic transmissions and Packard Ultramatic was a focus for
me.MAJOR Classics like the Duesenberg was another and I still have the form
tools for some of the engine nuts and bolts.Custom wotk for megabuck owners
is a good position to be in and when they find out they are not getting robbed
by an opportunistic machinist/mechanic they can be the best of friends.
Bill Large was a huge help and a fine teacher and an old gunsmith here in
Huntington showed me a lot about spring making and he did use old methods.
His heat source was a big,homemade gasoline blow torch he had to pump up
with a tire pump.He made this thing himself and it roared like a jet engine when working.
He hand filed his springs and hardened and tempered them with that big torch
and later I gave him some of the 1075 I use and he thought that was a miracle material.
I have the utmost respect for you guys and girls that revive as much as possible the old ways
and I still use a number of files in my lock and trigger work but whenever I can the lathe
and the mill will be my first choice along with the bandsaws and other motor driven machines.
Bob Roller
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Here is my low tech fixture for tapering spring. Not too much time involved so far. I get very little uninterupted shop time so it is hard to really estimate time involved. Maybe took ten minutes to forge. Five minutes to fix up the board to hold the spring (cut in the edge of my forging pattern) and twenty minutes with a big coarse flat bastard and then a fine mill file to taper. Five minutes or so to cut the pin.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ctjwMK/F2_FC5_D4_D_6125_4_C7_B_A520_2_A09671_B5_DE5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nA1zae)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bSGAgK/0060_E5_FE_416_A_44_AD_91_FF_8_D90_B842_A8_B7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvo1oz)
(https://preview.ibb.co/irq31K/04_A7712_D_BD12_4498_8_A07_F8_F8_E753_E47_B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dhBXve)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hEoqgK/5_CF4_EC0_A_E573_4_D86_B05_D_6_C236427_B0_CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cqiO1K)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bT75Fe/2_B4394_F7_C5_BA_4723_9_EFB_614124_FFCBEB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eA9Kae)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bMAQFe/48226_C4_B_F8_D1_4473_B0_D0_70_BF8_C5_BE4_FA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bUtO1K)
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David R,
Looks like you're moving right along with it.I am certainly aware of the satisfaction
gotten from such endeavours and am glad to see them being kept alive.
Please keep up with the posting as this progresses.
Bob Roller